Two more listing questions

[crispycreme]

Question one:

A while back we were at the Sonoran Desert Museum (more of a zoo than a museum) and while we were walking through their aviary, we spotted a Pyrrhuloxia on the outside of the aviary chatting away with a Pyrrhuloxia on the inside of it. Now, Pyrrhuloxias are rather common for the area, so is it ok to count the one we saw on the outside, even though it very well could have been an escapee from the aviary?

Question two:

Certainly there are many birds in my past that I have seen and recognized, well before I got into "birding" or started keeping lists. For example, I have seen many California Gulls from my youth, even though I don't have one on my list since I haven't seen one since I've started this hobby (and am now living in Arizona where gulls come at a premium). Is it considered bad form to include such a critter on my list, or should I wait until I see one in more of an "official" capacity?

[Larry Lade]

I believe it is entirely proper for you to include in your list, birds that you saw before you actually started writing down their names. For example if a person saw an Atlantic Puffin while living in Maine but was not recording bird sightings at that time, then later after this person had moved to California started keeping bird lists, that person could ethically count that bird on their list. That is my opinion.

That was kind of long winded and somewhat awkard grammatically. Oh well, you people are understanding and forgiving.

Larry

[Larry Lade]

In reference to your first question, I have been to aviaries where wild birds are attracted to the birds in the enclosure. At one in Omaha, Nebraska, I saw Wood Ducks flying around outside the aviary. These were wild ducks which were attracted by the enclosed birds. Yes, go ahead and count the bird which was outside the aviary.

Larry

[Bluetail]

I agree with Larry. I did some birding as a teenager and then gave it up for years. I have lots vivid memories of the birds I saw, including such UK goodies as a Hawfinch sat in our plum tree and a flock of Bohemian Waxwings in a neighbours apple tree. Did I put them on my list when I started birding again. You bet I did!! But I only did it with those birds I could see very clearly in my mind's eye.

As for the Pyrrhuloxia, if they are common in the area, why should it have escaped from the cage? If I was faced with a comparable situation, I guess I'd look for any physical signs of captivity (e.g. poor condition, missing feathers, that sort of thing) and if the species looked OK, I'd probably tick it.

At the end of the day, lists are personal things (at least over here they are) and it's your money, your vote.

Jason

[crispycreme]

Thanks guys. The reason I asked on the Pyrrhuloxia is that's the only one we've seen thus far (the field guide says they're common, but they're certainly not rushing up to our front door and announcing themselves! ;) ), and it was literally right on the outside of the netting, tapping beaks with one on the inside. And since the aviary had a netting for its enclosure, I can very well imagine that there are likely tears or digs big enough for the birds to get out and back again. Both birds looked in fine condition btw. Thanks again (for answering both questions!), I'll tick 'em! :)

[Larry Lade]

Crispy, I would venture to say that you will probably be seeing a great many more Pyrrhuloxia in the days to come. So your concern may become a mute point.

Larry

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Crispy,

An old English saying . . .'birds of a feather flock together' - your Pyrrhuloxia was almost certainly attracted to the cage by seeing one of its own kind inside and wanting to meet it. Every chance that it is a genuine wild 'tickable' bird.

I do wonder about the one inside - I'm not too well up on US law, but as far as I know, the US Migratory Birds Act makes it illegal to keep any US native bird in captivity unless it is injured and under rehabilitation by a licensed rehabilitator (certainly applies to UK native birds over here). So that one inside, there are three possibilities:
1. it got itself stuck inside accidentally,
2. it is an injured bird they are rehabilitating, or
3. it had been trapped illegally.
If it is an 'official' museum, reason 2 is by far the most likely. But it might just be worth checking out!

As for your California Gulls, lists start with the day you were able to identify the birds concerned. As you identified it, it is on your list, even if you didn't write it down at the time.

Michael

[dennis]

Hi crispy,

I'll join the rest in agreement that both can be listed.

As a listaholic, I'm curious as to what kind of lists you are keeping. I keep a world, ABA area, state and county list. Haven't started counting birds seen in my dreams yet....but thinking about it(LOL).

dennis

[Larry Lade]

It is my understanding that in the United States special permits may be obtained from the federal goverment to keep birds. If the birds so kept are involved in educational, scientific, research or other endeavors which are approved by the government. Falconers also must obtain permits to keep birds of prey.

I am sure the the museum in Phoenix has the required permits to keep the birds in an aviary. There are also many zoos in this country which have live birds in their collections. Again, I am sure that these establishments have all the required permits.

Larry

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Larry,

Thanks for the clarification!

Michael

[crispycreme]

As a listaholic, I'm curious as to what kind of lists you are keeping. I keep a world, ABA area, state and county list. Haven't started counting birds seen in my dreams yet....but thinking about it(LOL).

dennis


I use ebird.org for listing my birds, so the data can be looked at a number of different ways. Hence, I can have a state list or individual area lists. I haven't left the state yet since I started birding in earnest, so I don't have a list that extends beyond the borders. My "official" list, which I keep on a small web page separate from ebird.org is titled "Arizona Birding List" but that's pretty much semantics since we haven't birded anywhere else, and it's likely to be re-titled once we do. Our emphasis though, will always be southwestern and desert wildlife, since there's enough here to keep us occupied for the foreseeable future.


(for what it's worth, you can view it here: http://www.geocities.com/mwehman/lifelist.htm )

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Crispy,

Nice little list you've got there building up!

Hope you've got an easy way of shifting the numbers around when you see your first Common Loon or Eared Grebe ;)

Michael

[dennis]

Nice list Crispy. You have about 6 that would be lifers for me.

A peach-fronted Lovebird???? Where did you find that(LOL)? Never know what might turn up, eh?

Good health and good birds,
dennis

[crispycreme]

>>Hope you've got an easy way of shifting the numbers around when you see your first Common Loon or Eared Grebe <<

Fortunately, the numbers self-populate (it's an html listing function) so grebes and loons won't cause any undue re-formatting headaches, and I won't have to spend the rest of my life seeking passerines only. ;)

>>Nice list Crispy. You have about 6 that would be lifers for me.

A peach-fronted Lovebird???? Where did you find that(LOL)? Never know what might turn up, eh?<<

Yeah, they're actually fairly common here in Phoenix. There's at least three established flocks (probably many more), each numbering in the dozens to hundreds. Simply breathtaking birds!!

[Strix]

I agree with the rest. I see no reason to believe the Pyrr. isn't wild, and as long as you can clearly remember that you've seen a bird in the past I'd say you can put it on your life list.

I see that the Tropical Kingbird has been added. :) You're racking up a number of good birds down there already, you've got at least 2 dozen I've never seen. Oh, but isn't that double-CRested cormorant and StellEr's Jay?

[crispycreme]

>>Oh, but isn't that double-CRested cormorant and StellEr's Jay?<<

No, they're species endemic to my play world. ;) Ok, I typed it up during lunch, waddya want? :-P (fixed btw, thanks for the catch)

[Strix]

Endemic to your play world, LOL. Hey, that cormorant over there has got quite a nice... well, nevermind.