OK, so who's ticked Feral Pigeon?

[Bluetail]

Gasp! Shock! Horror! You can't tick 'em - you can only tick wild Rock Doves! That was the reaction I got when I once suggested that Feral Pigeons were tickable. Now I can sympathise entirely with the sentiment, but I can't follow the logic. For one thing, how can anyone be sure any of our Rock Doves are pure, even in the Scottish islands? For another, if feral species such as Pheasant and Ruddy Duck are tickable, what grounds are there for excluding Feral Pigeons?

So I just wondered what the concensus here is.

Jason

[Harry Hussey]

Hi Jason,
I personally waited until I saw some reasonably "pure" looking birds on a local headland,but realise that they too would probably have Feral Pigeon in their ancestry.
Also have Pheasant,Ruddy Duck and Mandarin on my list,but none of these did much for me(OK,maybe Ruddy Duck,as I've seen them in reed-fringed pools doing that odd display,but the other two....)
Harry H

[Michael Frankis]

I tick 'em, and always have done. As you say, just like or Ruddy Ducks or Pheasants. Or Little Owls, which everyone ticks (well, except for Harry, 'coz 'e don't get them in Ireland!).

Michael

[Harry Hussey]

Hi Michael,
Little Owl has occurred in Ireland(about 4 records,last in 1981),so I may be able to tick it yet.Such birds are,of course,most likely derived from the feral population in Britain.
Have the species on my life list:one in Bulgaria(have a feeling it was on Cape Kaliakra,know that I saw my only Pied Wheatear in the same area).
Harry H

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Harry,

Very interesting - I didn't know there were any Irish records.

Corollary is, if they can cross UK-Ireland OK, they can also cross France-UK, as the distance is shorter.

How long till there's a category 'A' Little Owl in Britain?? I guess it would have to have a French ring on to be accepted.

Michael

[Andrew Whitehouse]

I avoid ticking Feral Pigeon because it makes it much more satisfying when I see some proper Rock Doves. I suppose that all Rock Dove populations in Britain probably have odd visible traces of Feral Pigeons within them but I would say that in Islay (where I've seen most of my proper Rock Doves) I've never seen very much in the way of 'impurities' except for the occasional very obvious racing pigeons that I came across (usually hurtling through rather than hanging around).

Of course proper Rock Doves are another reason for a trip to Islay - I keep thinking of them. They're pretty fetching for a pigeon, all the more reason to keep them 'special' in my view.

[pduxon]

Can't see why not. Its not exactly satisfying but......

[birdman]

I hope to see "pure" Rock Doves one day, but I tick Feral Pigeons, and the validity for me (excluding all the fine reasons given above) is "Columba livia".That's what they are, that's what I tick.

[Tannin]

I'm with The Birdman. A bird is a bird, and this particular species is easy enough to see in its natural environment in just about any city in the world. Just like Rattus rattus, it is a species that has become superbly adapted to human habitations, just as other species have adapted to deserts or mangrove swamps.

(Errr ... I don't actually keep a list and tick things on it, but if I did then I'd count Feral Pigeons - and, for that matter Domestic Chickens if they have escaped and established a breeding population.)

[Jane Turner]

I have seen real Rocks... so no qualms about my British list.

No qualms either about having Mickeys on my county and patch/house list

[Tim Allwood]

no lists so no ticks ;)

but like Jane have seen genuine Rock Doves :t:

tick what you like, it's your list but you'll feel a little cheap when you see a real Rock Dove and the box has already been filled!!!

[Tim Allwood]

and if we're talking logic, how can you be sure lots of birds aren't from cages in the large bird markets on the near continent or escapes.
Answer: you can't be sure so as soon as you make a reasoned/dodgy judgement you've left logic behind and you're ticking what you feel like - which if you don't follow a recognised authority like BOU is what many people do.

the only logical thing to do with many birds is not to tick, them if ticking is your thing, because their veracity is in doubt somewhat.

Unless of course you follow that laughable UK400 list (and yes laughable is right, or to borrow a quote from Spud 'hilariously inept') and let someone else decide for you..... ;)

Alternatively throw off the chains of your list - it's like living without a watch - wonderful.

[Jasonbirder]

Worked too late to argue the point fully (be back fighting fit tomorrow I assure you ;)

But which hilariously inept or laughable list is the one which....

1. Discounts all recent White-headed Ducks as Escapes?
2. Rejects the Humberside Mugimaki Flycatcher as an escape?
3. Rejects the South Uist Long-tailed Shrike as an escape?
4. Considers Scottish Crossbill a full species?

Of course the Uk400 club has demonstrated its crass ignorance of Taxonomy by considering Green-winged Teal, Hooded Crow etc as full species....so no precedent there is there?

[Tim Allwood]

er......as i said I don't list so don't feel the need to justify anybody else's decisions but I trust the BOU to make reasonable decisions in the vast majority of cases, which is more than can be said for the UK400 list, details of which have been discussed ad nauseum

btw wouldn't actually disagree with them on points 1,2 and 3 - reckon the BOU are in the right. Don't know enough about 4 to have an opinion....

[Bluetail]

Of course the Uk400 club has demonstrated its crass ignorance of Taxonomy by considering Green-winged Teal, Hooded Crow etc as full species....so no precedent there is there?
Er, so have the BOURC - on both counts.

Jason

[Bluetail]

no lists so no ticks ;)

but like Jane have seen genuine Rock Doves :t:

tick what you like, it's your list but you'll feel a little cheap when you see a real Rock Dove and the box has already been filled!!!
Bet I won't! I'm sure I'll enjoy it just as much as I would a new tick. My first GND and Slav Grebe were winter birds, but I still got a real "wow" factor out of seeing my first summer plumaged ones. Like you say, the listing bit hardly matters.

Jason

[Tim Allwood]

absolutely Jason

a real Rock Dove anywhere, anytime is a great bird

[Bluetail]

But which list is the one which....

1. Discounts all recent White-headed Ducks as Escapes?
2. Rejects the Humberside Mugimaki Flycatcher as an escape?
3. Rejects the South Uist Long-tailed Shrike as an escape?
4. Considers Scottish Crossbill a full species?

For that matter:

5. Greater Flamingo! (Well, didn't someone see a juvenile coming in off the sea?)

Personally I've never forgiven them for the Booted Eagle - though I have to admit their decision was closely argued.

Jason

[Tim Allwood]

Ho hum,
the BOU has to maintain a scientifically rigorous list - hence lot's of birds won't get on it, you can still count them if it means something that deep to you. Why do people get a bee in their bonnet about folk trying to do a hard job?
You will never get legitimacy for your lists if that's what you're after and you will always be railing against the BOU.
who DO you want in charge of the British list?
Ignore them and carry on listing. Let them get on with their important work.

the UK400 club list is viewable at:
http://www.uk400clubonline.co.uk/spreadsheet%20link.htm

be warned there are no binomials and the English names are odd in places e.g. Saxaul Grey Shrike.

[Bluetail]

Ok, I was being a bit tongue in cheek! While I raise my eyebrows at some of the decisions they've taken, I acknowledge the BOU are experts in their field. I know b****r all about the subject, so who am I to pontificate?

The risible thing about the uk400 list is not the list itself, but the word "definitive".

Jason

[Tim Allwood]

Hi Jason
I guessed as much and admire your choice of words - risible - much underused but apt.

I think the problem with the UK400 list is not the actual species on the list (though some are contentious!) but which individuals are 'countable' under the club rules - seems decisions are a little 'arbitrary'

I appeared in the 'list of lists' unbeknownst to me with a hopelessly out of date WP total so you can see how relevant it is. There are also some made up names in there courtesy of those naughty llamas but I can't say what they are on here!

[Adey Baker]

A mate of mine 'closed his list' at 398 years ago just so that he couldn't be 'judged' in the 400club!

He caused a few raised eyebrows amongst our mates at the time (all tongue in cheek stuff, really) as they had worked hard to get what was quite a magic figure of 400 at the time.

Now he just goes for a bird if he wants to see it whether it's a new one or not.

This is how I see it nowadays - I often work on Saturdays so I've always missed out on some trips so I'd always been behind in my list total.

In many ways I'd sooner go and see another example of a rarity without worrying about getting the 'tick' as you can then enjoy the bird more and probably pick up on some of the features that you missed at the time 'in the heat of the moment.'

[Edward]

I have seen real Rocks... so no qualms about my British list.

No qualms either about having Mickeys on my county and patch/house list

Thick question, what's a Mickey? It's actually what we Mancunians call people from your part of the world, Jane, but I don't suppose you mean that!

We tick Feral Pigeon in Iceland although there are some alleged Rock Doves in eastern Iceland. I saw plenty of Rock Doves in Monfragüe in Spain but who's to say how pure their genes are. The day before we were there, loads of domestic pigeons went through Monfragüe as part of a race and apparently the two Bonelli's Eagles at one site frequently gave chase! That would have been a rewarding sight!

E

[Nightranger]

I think the whole issue revolves on the label "feral" surely there is a good argument for saying that rural pigeons are wild and independent of humans therefore, they cannot be classed as feral. As someone else has pointed out, we are still dealing with Columba livia . Surely, we should definitely not count rose-ringed parakeets.

I actually never put pigeons on my year list although I have genuinely seen wild rock doves. I just cannot find it in my heart to count pigeons in a town although I probably could.

Holidays from Friday so Merry Christmas everybody.

[CJW]

the UK400 club list is viewable at:
http://www.uk400clubonline.co.uk/spreadsheet%20link.htm

be warned there are no binomials and the English names are odd in places e.g. Saxaul Grey Shrike.

Just for your info' chaps, the name Saxaul Grey Shrike came about from a suggestion by Lars Svensson.
He disliked the English name "Steppe Grey Shrike" as there aren't, infact, any grey shrikes on the true steppe. Saxaul is name of the bush/shrub species, favoured by Lanius meridionalis pallidirostris for breeding.
UK400 immediately changed the list from Steppe to Saxaul.
Ofcourse, this hasn't even been split by most authorities and is still "only" a race of Southern Grey Shrike.