Hedge Accentor!

[Andrew]

Does anyone use the proper name for Dunnock in their lists? Seems a bit stiff upper lip to say "I saw three Hedge Accentors this morning, eh, what what!"

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Andrew,

I always use Dunnock. That other contrivance is a bit of a nonsense.

Harrison (1982, Atlas of the Birds of the Western Palaearctic) used '— Dunnock' for all of the Prunella species (Alpine Dunnock, Siberian Dunnock, Radde's Dunnock, etc.). Very sensible and I can't see why the BOU didn't follow this excellent example.

Spot the Alpine Dunnock in this list, too ;)
http://www.birdtours.co.uk/tripreports/bulgaria/bul1/bul-sept-01.htm

Michael

[Andrew Whitehouse]

I call them Dunnocks, although I wouldn't want to call Accentors 'Dunnocks' even though I know they're very closely related. Somehow "Alpine Dunnock" lacks that air of exotic promise that Alpine Accentor has.

[StevieEvans]

i seem to remember 'Someone' from Devon calling a certain bird -
'White Throated Dipper' ! , not too long ago........ ;)
Water Ousel is a far more appropriate & evocative name for The Dipper.
Fair enough if it had been a continental one.....then it could sound great !.....
hows about ...........'Black Bellied Water Ousel' :bounce:
S

PS - Your birds clearly a 'Haddock'
A freshly split hybrid-throwback with parents being Hedge Sparra & Dunnock..a new armchair tick which is also very pleasant with chips & mushies..... :eat:
S

[Andrew]

Actually it is a White-throated Dipper. I am new to proper names so I went by the Collins at first and am now referring tot he BOU list but felt it too much to call our Dunnock a Hedge Accentor.

[Bluetail]

The impression I get is that the majority of birders have stuck with the names that were current before the BOU got the bee in their bonnet, except that we all happily use "Northern", "Common" or whatever when clarification is desirable. There was a rather nice article in "Not BB III" (anyone remember that?) that summed up the revailing attitude pretty well.

Jason

[pauco]

Dunnock sounds much better.

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Jason,

I think the BOU names would have caught on a lot better, if they'd had the sense to backpedal and abandon the two or three most controvertial changes - the change to Dunnock being one of them.

The great majority of the changes were very sensible, and it was only their intransigence over keeping ALL of them, that made birders go into revolt and reject the whole lot.

Sadly, probably too late now to ever return to any level of conformity over bird names now.

Michael

[Bluetail]

Hi Michael

Do you think just backpedalling on two or three would have been enough? That's not my recollection. What I remember is a lot of opposition (voiced publically at the time) and the BOU ploughing on regardless. Well, not entirely regardless, since they did invite comments from inetersted parties; but they were already determined to drive though the "unique identifer" principle. I don't think I ever met one birder who thought it necessary, even the ones who appreciated the intellectual reasoning behind it.

Jason

[Tim Allwood]

I feel sorry for the BOU

they tried to bring some standardisation to British names but just got shouted down by the narrow-minded British birding community, as they do over many things come to think of it. Quite why birders should have had the power to do away with these names is beyond me. Birders can surely call birds whatever they like when talking to their mates or ticking the boxes on their lists.......and listening to popular opinion isn't always the wisest option

I try to think in latin binomials as much as possible these days as using 'English' names when abroad is a recipe for confusion. Not too many people are familiar with Dunnock, believe it or not.

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Jason,

As I remember it, there was a lot of comment when the draft list was put out, some favourable, some not; but that when they took not the blindest bit of notice of the comments submitted in response to their invitation, that's when opposition hardened significantly. People quite rightly felt their views had been ignored.

I feel sure that if they'd said "OK, thanks for the comments, we've decided on reflection not to go ahead with these few most disliked changes: .....", then the rest would have been accepted much more willingly.

Certainly true that several of the less controvertial ones have been taken up by recent field guides (Collins, Beaman & Madge, etc), but they all still have Dunnock.

Michael

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Tim,

I try to think in latin binomials as much as possible these days as using 'English' names when abroad is a recipe for confusion. Not too many people are familiar with Dunnock, believe it or not.Hardly surprising, as the species (and indeed the genus) doesn't occur (except as 'mega' vagrants) in any English-speaking country outside of the British Isles!

That's why the BOU's reasons for rejecting Dunnock were so completely unreasonable (and equally, why Harrison's are perfectly sensible). Calling Prunella rubida 'Japanese Dunnock' rather than 'Japanese Accentor' isn't going to make any difference to the Japanese, since they all call it 'Kaya-Kuguri' anyway.

Michael

[Tim Allwood]

ok so Dunnock was a bad example on a saturday night after a bottle of wine B (: (are you being pedantic again? ;) ). Think of the recent discussions re raptors etc. if we all used a different English name in each country it would soon become more tedious than it already is.

the principal holds true though - the point was standardisation of English names - a major headache. Decisions made about 'British' birds impact in other regions and any attempt to standardise names is a step forward by me. Why have several accentors but one Dunnock in the same genus?

can't we offically have Hedge Accentor and birders can call it what they like when they're out birding or on thier list/notebook at home. Why do people get so wound up by this. Is it some sort of inferiority complex? - not wanting to be told what to call birds by people who 'think they know better' than the majority of us?

Why does your average birder need to call Dunnock by its official BOU name?
And if we acceed to the wishes of birders in so-called 'lofty' matters the british list would number a few dozen more birds and splits would be made at the drop of a hat......... :h?:

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Tim,

Think of it the other way round:

Decisions made about 'British' birds impact in other regions Yes, in many cases, - but Prunella is not one of them. There are no English speakers in the rest of the range of the genus.

There are over 50 million English speakers in the British Isles who are affected by the decision to change Dunnock to Hedge Accentor, but only a few thousand (if that) English speakers (English birders going abroad) affected by changing all the other accentor names to dunnock names.

If one is to have a single group name for all the species, making it '— Dunnock' impacts on considerably fewer people than '— Accentor'. That's why I think Harrison was right.

Michael

[Tim Allwood]

fair point, but that would entail even more change with several accentors becoming dunnocks and would probably provoke your average Brit even more!

[Mike D]

I believe in calling a spade a spade - and a shoveller a shoveller. So 'Dunnock' (from the Olde English meaning 'Small and brown', I was once told) will do it for me.

[Andrew]

I'll wager someone got really hot under the collar when the Dunnock was given it's name, it's previous name may have been preferred too!

[cjay]

How about Hedge Bettie,Chanter, Chat, Creeper,Dunny,Moke,Hatcher,Hempie, all known other names for this species.

CJ

[Andrew]

I'll have Hempie! That's a great name!

[alanhill]

Well done Mike D, let's stick to the old, and best name, ie Dunnock = 'little brown job'.

And while we're at it let's do the same with the Robin and go back to his old name, ie Ruddock = 'little red job'.
As I understand it historically it's name has changed as follows: Ruddock, Redbreast, Robin Redbreast, Robin.

Ye olde Alan Hill.

[Jasonbirder]

Surely language belongs to the people who use it - hence the need for constantly updated dictionaries (for example who uses the word gay to describe carefree and cheerful these days?)
Whilst in the academic world of the BOU there is a logic behind Lapland longspur and Hedge Accentor there is no real justification for it in the real world - its OK to say one "official" name and one that birders use whenever they want - but what is the sense in a name (officially sanctioned or not) that no-one uses and plenty of people actively dislike!
Why the BOU can`t listen sensibly to what the majority of British Birdwatchers want is beyond me and certainly nothing for them to be proud of! After all the world hasn`t stopped spinning on its axis because British birders call Divers "Divers" and Americans call them "Loons" has it?

[Tim Allwood]

the reason why the BOU don't listen to the majority of birders is the same reason politicians don't listen to the majority of the public - their views are generally (note the word generally please!) reactionary and made with little wisdom. after all if politicians listened to the average Joe or Josephine we'd be hanging people from lamp posts and sending everyone who looked like a foreigner back where they came from!

[Bluetail]

You could of course argue that the fact that the majority of politicians aren't willing to hang people from lamp posts is evidence of wisdom - and, by extension, accord similar attributes to the BOURC. I strongly suspect that both they and politicians feel that whatever they do, they can't win, so they might as well make up their own minds about what's best for us.

Jason

[Tim Allwood]

absolutely Jason
my point in a nutshell!
and generally the BOU and politicians are wiser than the general birder and general public.

[Jasonbirder]

Ah I see....as a card carrying member of the general public (and a birder to boot) I`ll quite happily accept what my betters (political and ornithological) pronounce is good for me, comfortable in the knowledge that I am too poorly informed, ill educated and ignorant to be able to make up my own mind!

[cuddy]

Still call them Hedge Sparrows myself.

[Tim Allwood]

good
keep it like that ;)

as a fully fledged Red (that's a Socialist and not a Forest/Man U. fan) I'm not one to bow down to my 'superiors'. But when people are better informed than me, as are I guess the BOU, then I do pay suitable respect to their work etc.....

[Bluetail]

Ah I see....as a card carrying member of the general public (and a birder to boot) I`ll quite happily accept what my betters (political and ornithological) pronounce is good for me, comfortable in the knowledge that I am too poorly informed, ill educated and ignorant to be able to make up my own mind!
No no. If you prefer, you can make up your mind as an informed and educated savant. And happiness doesn't enter into it, honestly.

Jason

[Mike D]

Well done Mike D, let's stick to the old, and best name, ie Dunnock = 'little brown job'.

And while we're at it let's do the same with the Robin and go back to his old name, ie Ruddock = 'little red job'.
As I understand it historically it's name has changed as follows: Ruddock, Redbreast, Robin Redbreast, Robin.

Ye olde Alan Hill.

Hi Alan,

No 'Historic' reason as far as I'm concerned - I was brought up (in East Anglia) to call 'em 'Dunnocks', and 'Dunnocks' is easier to say than Hedge Accentors, and so on ad nauseum.
Besides - 'Bearded Reedlings' to me remain Bearded Tits ('Beardies' for short).

No, sorry but the way I see it is, as long as I know I'm right in the ID, call them Fred, Joe or Harry. I don't intend trying to impress anyone with my vast knowledge (?) by falling into line because some comittee somewhere, for some unknown (to me) and unimportant (to me) reason decides that a name which has survived for probably centuries is 'Wrong'. [QUOTE THE LOCAL GURU: "Oh no, didn't you know - their name is now 'Lesser Spotted Cow-Patch. Oh dear - you ARE falling behind".]

I say we should poll the birds themselves. I believe this is the modern modus operandii. Make sure we get a concensus, and then we will all know we are right.

As I learned a long time ago - what the h**l is in a name?

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Mike,

I say we should poll the birds themselves. I believe this is the modern modus operandii. Make sure we get a concensus, and then we will all know we are right.
I asked several by what name they'd like to be known by. Got the same answer every time, 'Tseep'. So from henceforth, Prunella modularis is to be known as Tseep, in deference to their wishes.

:king:

[Mike D]

Hi Michael
I thought the Great Bard (or someone!) had already named four to "Cuckoo, Jug-Jug, Peewit and Tuwhit Tuwhoo" excuse spelling if wrong.
I am easy on three, but not sure which one is Jug-Jug!

[Bluetail]

Not Shakespeare, but Thomas Nashe:

Summer's Last Will and Testament

Spring, the sweet Spring, is the year's pleasant king;
Then blooms each thing, then maids dance in a ring,
Cold doth not sting, the pretty birds do sing,
Cuckoo, jug-jug, pu-we, to-witta-woo!

The palm and may make country houses gay,
Lambs frisk and play, the shepherds pipe all day,
And we hear aye birds tune this merry lay,
Cuckoo, jug-jug, pu-we, to-witta-woo!

The fields breathe sweet, the daisies kiss our feet,
Young lovers meet, old wives a-sunning sit,
In every street these tunes our ears do greet,
Cuckoo, jug-jug, pu-we, to-witta-woo!
Spring! The sweet Spring!

These are calls, so - a pure guess - I'd suggest Reed Warbler for jug-jug.

Of course it might have been a relative of this one:

Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
Beware the Jub-Jub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!.
Beware the Jabberwock, my son.

Jason :scribe:

[Mike D]

Hi Bluetail,
'Sorry' to the Bard!
But, along the lines of poetry, no pun this time, another poem which I have been trying to find for many years is one which I learned at school entitled 'Evening', by Walter De La Mere. It also makes mention of birds. Tried on the www many times but without success. Could you, or any of the many knowledgeable members out there point me to a book (in- or out-of-print) which has this poem?
It would be brillig if I could finally get hold of all the lines.

[Elizabeth Bigg]

Hi Bluetail,
'Sorry' to the Bard!
But, along the lines of poetry, no pun this time, another poem which I have been trying to find for many years is one which I learned at school entitled 'Evening', by Walter De La Mere. It also makes mention of birds. Tried on the www many times but without success. Could you, or any of the many knowledgeable members out there point me to a book (in- or out-of-print) which has this poem?
It would be brillig if I could finally get hold of all the lines.


I can't find a poem entitled "Evening" here - but could you be mis-remembering the actual title?

http://www.nth-dimension.co.uk/vl/author.asp?id=116

You've set me a task here, if this doesn't help!!!

[Bluetail]

I don't know it either, I'm afraid, but I used to have musical composition lessons from a chap who was a friend of de la Mare's and he set one of his poems called "Before Dawn" which has the lines:

All flowers and butterflies lie hid,
The blackbird and the thrush
Pipe but a little as they flit
Restless from bush to bush;
Even unto the robin Gabriel hath
Cried softly, "Hush!"
....
No lark at casement in the sky
Sings mattins shrill and clear;

Birds crop up quite regularly in de la Mare's poems, I think!

Jason