Cattle Egret - care please!

[MSA]

Our local Recorder has sent round the following message -

"As the breeding season approaches, can everyone bear in mind the
possibility that some of our wintering Cattle Egrets may stay and
attempt to breed in the county this year. Some `behaviour' has already
been noted from (some) birds and therefore can
anyone reporting these birds exercise caution and not broadcast the
news too widely. We have decided to cease reporting (certain)
birds on the DBC website, and would be grateful if the info services
could follow suit."

Sound advice I believe, and one that should be bourne in mind when reporting any potential sensitive breeding species as spring approaches.

[marklhawkes]

A reasonable request, to which I hope most will adhere

[aeshna5]

A very sensible strategy! Let's hope we have a new colonist this year.

[ZanderII]

A very sensible strategy! Let's hope we have a new colonist this year.

The sceptical among us might not dare to hope. The colonisation of Cattle Egret - a species that has proliferated throughout the globe in the face of massive habitat loss and conversion, and now being encouraged north by global warming is a potent symbol of the homogenisation of the world's avifauna.

Z

[ggregory71]

Cattle Egrets sometimes nest in mixed colonies with other egrets and herons. On other occasions a few birds seem to hang around colonies of these other species without breeding, and I have been informed that they have been known to rob nests of eggs and/or young. How common this behaviour is I do not know, but it is worth looking out for.

[jdj]

exercise caution and not broadcast the
news too widely

Remind me, what does www stand for?

[MSA]

Remind me, what does www stand for?

world wide web I believe - a means of communicating information globally, which means that a degree of discretion is needed when placing information thereon, as it will be accessible by all, including those (in this instance) who could threaten the birds' breeding via disturbance, egg collection etc.

Edit - maybe unduly sarky response - on re-reading, maybe you meant I shouldn't have posted the warning? I believe it was vague enough to make a point without giving too much away, I'd done a bit of editing anyway.

[bkrownd]

The colonisation of Cattle Egret - a species that has proliferated throughout the globe in the face of massive habitat loss and conversion, and now being encouraged north by global warming is a potent symbol of the homogenisation of the world's avifauna.

They're a big pest here in Hawai'i. There's been some sort of extermination program off-and-on, though it seems more 'off' than 'on' at the moment.

[Richard Klim]

"As the breeding season approaches, can everyone bear in mind the possibility that some of our wintering Cattle Egrets may stay and attempt to breed in the county this year."

Sound advice I believe, and one that should be bourne in mind when reporting any potential sensitive breeding species as spring approaches.

It's unusual to see Cattle Egret described as a sensitive breeding species, and rather worrying that some birders are eagerly anticipating colonisation by this highly invasive bird.

[Jos Stratford]

It's rather worrying that some birders are eagerly anticipating colonisation by this highly invasive bird.

Why? Can't see a problem to be honest - it's just a species doing well, expanding its range naturally.

[Richard Klim]

Why? Can't see a problem to be honest - it's just a species doing well, expanding its range naturally.

It might not be a problem (subject to potential impacts on other heron species, for example), but surely the last thing that Cattle Egret needs anywhere in the world is actual human assistance or protection.

And although it's range expansion may seem 'natural', in practice it proliferates where natural habitat has been degraded - it could be considered a flagship species of conservation failure.

[Jos Stratford]

It might not be a problem (subject to potential impacts on other heron species, for example)

The fact is though they are not being introduced or escaping, they are expanding their range themselves, natural colonisation. Given that Britain has just two other common breeding herons, both of which ably coexist alongside it almost throughout their global range, or at least in Eurasia and Africa, then I don't suppose the impact on these other heron species is something to unduly worry about. Besides, one of those two common breeding herons is also a coloniser, having only been present a couple of decades.



surely the last thing that Cattle Egret needs anywhere in the world is actual human assistance or protection.

The thread was calling for caution regarding possible breeding birds in the UK - as these would be the first breeding records, there would exist a degree of threat to them from either disturbance or egg theft. Why encourage this? Just because they are common elsewhere in the world? As natural colonisers, they are a deserving of protection as any other, the 'surely the last thing they need' seems a little odd to me, hinting them not worthy of protection.

[Jos Stratford]

And although it's range expansion may seem 'natural', in practice it proliferates where natural habitat has been degraded - it could be considered a flagship species of conservation failure.

Cattle Egret proliferates where natural habitat has been degraded? So too does it in many first class habitats. Perhaps, milder conditions are allowing it to expand, but so what? Should we try and maintain the status quo at all costs - cull the Little Egrets, shoot the next breeding Bee-eaters, etc?

If we try to control populations of successful species just because we think we influenced their success, we are in trouble. Taking it to its logical and extreme conclusion, we might as well just blast every other open country bird out of existance - Yellowhammers, Grey Partridges, etc, etc. Though we probably think of them as reduced in number in recent times, must surely still be in far greater numbers than if humans had not degraded the natural habitat (ie forest) that would originally covered the country.

[Richard Klim]

Should we try and maintain the status quo at all costs - cull the Little Egrets, shoot the next breeding Bee-eaters, etc?
Jos,

At no point did I suggest that active control measures should be taken - which I suspect would be futile!

I was merely noting that the incredible global range expansion of Cattle Egret (Africa, Europe, Asia, N & S America, Australasia) will anyway continue very successfully without any extra help from us;

and perhaps also questioning the apparent celebration of the arrival on our shores of such an invasive species.

Richard

[Jos Stratford]

At no point did I suggest that active control measures should be taken -

No worries, I did not wish to suggest you had, but you appeared to question why a UK pair should be protected, but maybe that was my reading.

[Gavin Haig]

I was...perhaps also questioning the apparent celebration of the arrival on our shores of such an invasive species.

Is there something wrong with that apparent celebration? Your comment suggests there is. Your pejorative use of the word 'invasive' suggests parity with species where the word could legitimately be used, eg. Japanese Knotweed or Himalayan Balsam. Personally I prefer the word 'successful'. The means of its success may well be an indictment of man's management of his home, but that's another matter.

I will happily celebrate their arrival in this part of East Devon if/when it happens.

[Richard Klim]

Your pejorative use of the word 'invasive' suggests parity with species where the word could legitimately be used, eg. Japanese Knotweed or Himalayan Balsam.

Gavin,

I am not responsible for classifying Cattle Egret as an invasive species (which I do not consider to be a 'perjorative' term in any way).

Cattle Egret is listed as such in the Global Invasive Species Database (GISD) managed by the Invasive Species Specialist Group - part of the Species Survival Commission of the IUCN-World Conservation Union (the same organisation that maintains the Red List of threatened species) - see http://www.issg.org.

This does indeed suggest parity with Japanese Knotweed and Himalayan Balsam, both of which are also listed in the invasive species database.

You have illustrated perfectly the tendency for birders to refuse to consider the range expansion of any bird species to be other than 'a good thing', while apparently willing to acknowledge the problems of other invasive flora and fauna.

Richard

[Gavin Haig]

You have illustrated perfectly the tendency for birders to refuse to consider the range expansion of any bird species to be other than 'a good thing', while apparently willing to acknowledge the problems of other invasive flora and fauna.
Firstly, I stand corrected re. 'invasive' - it's obviously the view of others too - though I still wonder why not 'successful'? Having said that, I can see an argument for the two plants being successful also, so I'll drop that one.

Secondly, in response to the quote above, I do not see their arrival as an unqualified 'good thing' but, equally, I am not a global ecologist, and my parochial little mind sees only the pleasure I will derive from the regular presence of Cattle Egrets locally. When they begin to destroy the local fauna/flora/habitat in some hideous and too-late-to-do-anything-about-it way I shall regret my initial pleasure and eat my words....

[changer400]

When they begin to destroy the local fauna/flora/habitat in some hideous and too-late-to-do-anything-about-it way I shall regret my initial pleasure and eat my words....

And then shoot them ??? ;) easy to see in the sights ! ;) and far easier to hit then those nasty little invasive Ruddies ! ;)

Si

[Gomphus]

Errr why should we be questioning the arrival of a natural colonist? If like Himalyan Balsam, Knotweed and Ruddy Duck etc it is a man made problem then yes, but Cattle Egrets are doing what comes naturally, would we be questioning say Common Rosefinch, Penduline Tit or any of the other species that are, or might colonise? Collared Dove has done it and Cattle Egret will probably do it eventually. We cannot wrap our enviroment up in cotton wool and preserve it as it is...anyway that is wrong....how do you think things got here in the first place??????
I cannot really see that we, as a species, have the right to decide what happens naturally, now if we introduce either accidentally or deliberately something that turns out to be wrong etc (ie Balsam/Knotweed) then yes we do need to address the problem the best way we can.

[marklhawkes]

I agree with Gomphus. This is natural selection at work

[Richard Klim]

why should we be questioning the arrival of a natural colonist? ... I cannot really see that we, as a species, have the right to decide what happens naturally...

Gomphus (and Mark),

It is a fine judgement as to whether Cattle Egret can truly be considered 'a natural colonist', or its range expansion to be the result of 'natural selection'.

As ZanderII noted yesterday, Cattle Egret is "a species that has proliferated throughout the globe in the face of massive habitat loss and conversion".

Our wanton destruction has directly led to the dramatic expansion of a number of opportunistic species, often at the expense of native populations. We may not have 'decided' what happened, but we ought to accept some responsibility for the results, however unintended.

We cannot wrap our enviroment up in cotton wool and preserve it as it is...

Again, I have not advocated control measures - it is clearly much too late given Cattle Egret's march across all continents except Antarctica.

But it would be good to see more evidence of concern that we are causing such disturbing effects, rather than just seeing a new regular tick as a welcome bonus.

Richard

[Twite]

Surely a majority of birds are "invasive" That is they started to arrive from somewhere else as the glacial ice sheet started to recede 10,000 or so years ago. So the Cattle Egrets just took a little longer to get here. It's colonisation.

Twite.

[Binocularface]

I wouldn't worry too much - they'll be gone by the spring ;-)

[Richard Klim]

Surely a majority of birds are "invasive" That is they started to arrive from somewhere else as the glacial ice sheet started to recede 10,000 or so years ago. So the Cattle Egrets just took a little longer to get here. It's colonisation.

Twite.

Sure - I can't argue that it's colonisation.

But when a species that has evolved steadily for millions of years, and then undergoes an intercontinental population explosion within the last two centuries, it's pretty obvious that it's down to us rather than receding glacial ice sheets (or other methods of 'natural' colonisation).

And, yes, I know that ultimately it can be argued that 'we' are part of 'natural' global evolution (like it or not)... ;)

Richard

[Gavin Haig]

But it would be good to see more evidence of concern that we are causing such disturbing effects, rather than just seeing a new regular tick as a welcome bonus.
Richard - I'm sure it's not meant to be, but that sounds a bit judgemental. I'll bet every contributor to this forum has a measure of concern about what we are doing to this planet and the disturbing effects thereof. What 'evidence' would it be good to see? In the face of the unstoppable inevitability of Cattle Egret colonisation I would have thought that 'seeing a new regular tick as a welcome bonus' at least puts a thin silver lining into the cloud of gloom and is not, as you appear to suggest, simply a sign of apathy.

[Richard Klim]

OK, I surrender! I appreciate that birders are more concerned than most about conservation.

Can anyone tell me how to make a Cattle Egret nesting box? :t:

Richard

[Harry Hussey]

Wow, who would have thought that the prospect of 'natural' (parentheses used for fear of offending someone!) colonisation by a bird species (in this case, Cattle Egret) would be frowned upon by someone from a birding/ conservation background?
Speaking personally, I could understand the dismay if this were some species, like Indian House Crow, whose means of dispersal was connected to marine traffic, or, even more so, if the Cattle Egrets now present (but not yet breeding) in S UK and S Ireland were escapes from captivity/illegal releases (on THAT note, when are the French going to do something about those Sacred Ibises?), but, as these birds have arrived under their own steam, why is the situation, if they DO breed, so different to that concerning the Little Egret, or Collared Dove, or any other successful colonist?
If it is due to the species doing well due to Man's activities, then what about the doves, which seem concentrated in suburban gardens and grain stores in rural areas?
In connection to the 'homogenisation' of the world's bird populations, does that mean that, taking these things to their extreme, the reintroduction programmes ongoing in Ireland for Golden and White-tailed Eagles and Red Kites should be frowned upon, as this would make the (impoverished) Irish avifauna more similar to that of the UK (I presume not, as, of course, the term 'REintroduction' means that those species were here anyway in the first place, and, besides, all are scarce enough for extra populations on another island to be of conservation concern, particularly the WP endemic Red Kite)?
Regards,
Harry

[ColinD]

Errr why should we be questioning the arrival of a natural colonist? ....

Playing Devils advocate here for a moment, I guess it might be possible in some situations to consider stopping a natural colonist. For example, if Humans have reduced a native species to the brink of extinction, then if a competitor suddenly appeared in the UK, perhaps we ought to at least consider whether or not we should let it spread? Since we were largely responsible for the demise of the native species, might we not have a duty to try to defend what was left of the population from an invader?

For example, if we had a mini invasion of Brown Cowbirds one year, would we allow them to become established, given that they are a parasitic species which is known to have a bad effect on song birds in North America? Do we stand back and say "it's just natural colonisation", or do we say "no, we got our Song Thrushes into this mess, and now we're going to help them out"?

I don't know the answer, I'm just putting the scenario forward for debate.

Edit: I suppose the other question is: What would happen if a pair of North American ringed Ruddy Ducks started breeding in the UK. Would we let them spread or would we cull them?

[tittletattler]

OK, I surrender! I appreciate that birders are more concerned than most about conservation.
Can anyone tell me how to make a Cattle Egret nesting box? :t:
Richard

Richard seems a little outnumbered here so I just thought I'd add my twopenny's worth and say that I agree with him. Even the nestbox bit. ;)

Put it another way, in some parts of the world attempts are being made to 're-grow' Rainforest in areas that had been cleared for timber or failed attempts at agriculture. Obviously some species of bird have benefitted from the original deforestation. Should we therefore halt any attempts at re-foresting these areas in order to conserve and celebrate the colonists whose ranges have expanded as a result of the deforestation caused by man?

Cattle Egret and Little Egret may have colonised the UK on their own but it is more likely that they are a sign of the man made effects on this planet. Should this really be celebrated?

[Harry Hussey]

Cattle Egret and Little Egret may have colonised the UK on their own but it is more likely that they are a sign of the man made effects on this planet. Should this really be celebrated?

At this stage, whether it be due to climate change, habitat modification etc, 99% of colonists will, to a greater or lesser degree, have been influenced by Man's impact on the planet, so are we to just to tolerate the 'original' natives (all of which have recolonised since the last glaciation), and tar anything else that arrives afterwards with the same attitude that, were it applied to human beings, would be decidedly xenophobic?
For example, Mistle Thrush, Magpie and Stock Dove colonised Ireland in historical times (not sure of the dates off hand, think Magpie was late 18th century?). Their spread here predates anthropogenic climate change, but, of course, the latter two in particular jump out as being species that would have benefitted in Britain due to landscape changes caused by Man, and would have been far rarer there prior to large-scale clearances. Is this then to demean these species (the Magpie already having a bad reputation among many due to its egg-stealing) as being somehow 'less Irish' or 'less worthy' than, say, Coal Tit, which has an endemic subspecies here?

[Gomphus]

At this stage, whether it be due to climate change, habitat modification etc, 99% of colonists will, to a greater or lesser degree, have been influenced by Man's impact on the planet, so are we to just to tolerate the 'original' natives (all of which have recolonised since the last glaciation), and tar anything else that arrives afterwards with the same attitude that, were it applied to human beings, would be decidedly xenophobic?
For example, Mistle Thrush, Magpie and Stock Dove colonised Ireland in historical times (not sure of the dates off hand, think Magpie was late 18th century?). Their spread here predates anthropogenic climate change, but, of course, the latter two in particular jump out as being species that would have benefitted in Britain due to landscape changes caused by Man, and would have been far rarer there prior to large-scale clearances. Is this then to demean these species (the Magpie already having a bad reputation among many due to its egg-stealing) as being somehow 'less Irish' or 'less worthy' than, say, Coal Tit, which has an endemic subspecies here?

Spot on IMO Harry!

Cheers

[tittletattler]

Hi Harry & Gomphus,

I agree with you as well.

That means, of course, that you missed the original point as you've addressed another point altogether that neither Richard nor myself made ;)

[Richard Klim]

At this stage, whether it be due to climate change, habitat modification etc, 99% of colonists will, to a greater or lesser degree, have been influenced by Man's impact on the planet, so are we to just to tolerate the 'original' natives...?

Harry,

Let me say once again that I have never suggested that Cattle Egret should not be tolerated - I am fully resigned to the fact that the global range expansion of the species is now effectively unstoppable.

I am just dismayed that so many British (and Irish) birders seem to positively welcome potential colonisation by such an invasive (not my term) species, as if it represented some sort of conservation success story rather than evidence of something going wrong; and even believe that the species should be actively encouraged to gain a breeding foothold in the British Isles.

Richard

[Jos Stratford]

I am just dismayed that so many British (and Irish) birders seem to positively welcome potential colonisation by such an invasive (not my term) species, as if it represented some sort of conservation success story; and even believe that the species should be actively encouraged to gain a breeding foothold in the British Isles.


And again, I have to ask why birders should not be pleased to see them? Any species colonising is by its very action invasive and I fail to see any reason why we should shed tears over this species joining the UK list of breeding species. It is not going to infringe on other herons as they co-exist elsewhere, it does not mean the world is about to end as many species have undergone expansions and contractions before, and there seems to be no real down side ...unless I just can't see it! If Cattle Egrets can be successful in spite of our impact on the environment, then good.

As a point of interest, all egrets in Europe are expanding and I would say it is only a question of years before Little, Cattle and Great White Egret are breeding, very good day it will be too. In a world where biodiversity is painted to be one slippery slope downwards, I welcome something bucking the trend.

[Jos Stratford]

I am just dismayed ...

Fortunately most of us seemingly are not.

[Richard Klim]

In a world where biodiversity is painted to be one slippery slope downwards, I welcome something bucking the trend.

Maintaining biodiversity is all about preventing domination by a smaller number of highly opportunistic species which are able to prosper in a trashed environment.

[marklhawkes]

Maintaining biodiversity is all about preventing domination by a smaller number of highly opportunistic species which are able to prosper in a trashed environment.

Ironic then, that as one of those species, we are now debating whether it is acceptable to allow another species to do similar! ;)

[Jos Stratford]

Maintaining biodiversity is all about preventing domination by a smaller number of highly opportunistic species which are able to prosper in a trashed environment.

So, please show me evidence that has shown any negative impact on the environment of Cattle Egrets, or of Little Egrets, or of Great White Egrets, all of which are expanding into habitats that are not trashed, that are bird rich. You seem to equate their expansion with degradation, can you actually show anything to support this?

[Jos Stratford]

Maintaining biodiversity is all about preventing domination by a smaller number of highly opportunistic species which are able to prosper in a trashed environment.

I see four species of herons naturally co-existing (presuming all three egrets do estabish) as better biodiversity than keeping it to the static one. Maybe my mathematics or understanding is lacking somewhere.

[MSA]

Good job I didn't mention the knife....

[Richard Klim]

Ironic then, that as one of those species, we are now debating whether it is acceptable to allow another species to do similar! ;)

Wise words indeed - very, very true. But I don't think a proposal for a cull of the human race would attract much support either. ;)

[Gomphus]

Harry,

Let me say once again that I have never suggested that Cattle Egret should not be tolerated - I am fully resigned to the fact that the global range expansion of the species is now effectively unstoppable.

I am just dismayed that so many British (and Irish) birders seem to positively welcome potential colonisation by such an invasive (not my term) species, as if it represented some sort of conservation success story rather than evidence of something going wrong; and even believe that the species should be actively encouraged to gain a breeding foothold in the British Isles.

Richard

I never suggested this was a "conservation success story" it isn't, we haven't done anything intentional to encorage them, its happening because, for whatever reason, the situation is favorable to the species, now we can debate forever if this is the fault of man mucking up the enviroment or whatever, but its been heading this way for some time, people have been predicting Cattle Egret as a coloniser for as long as I remember, (and of course this lot may just all B***er off in spring!). Now whether you sign up to climate change or not, its clear something is happening and yes I look around and am "dismayed" by what I see, but as far as Cattle Egrets go if they arrive they arrive, if they do not I will not be too bothered either way! Little Egret has arrived and prospered and (like Jos) I suspect will GWEgret, herons it seems are prospering for now....

The biodiversity question is a bit more complicated than just preventing successful species dominating others, surely its about maintaining a healthy enviroment for all, and if Cattle Egrets are included as new arrivals is that a bad thing as long as we work to maintain other stuff as well?
Also where is the evidence that CE expansion is totally down to the impact of man?

I see Jos has just asked the question my husband (who is incidentaly studying Ecology at Uni) has just asked "what impact are they having (he mentioned GWE and LE as well)..and that they are not just expanding into "trashed" enviroments (question: what exactly is a trashed enviroment?) but into good, well balanced ones as well?" He has also pointed out that most of the habitat used by Cattle Egrets was probably suitable for them a long time before the "invasion" began, as farming etc was well underway well over 150years ago (indeed the insect life etc was more abundant then) so what triggered it, and that as Cattle Egrets are invertabrate feeders this means that that side of things must be fairly healthy?

Cheers

[tittletattler]

The Cattle Egret will probably not have much impact at all on 'native' species. The same goes for Little Egret, GWE and any other heron species that decides to colonise.

That they are colonising so quickly is evidence of what is actually the true problem.

So what if we lose hundreds of species of bird from Cloud Forests etc?Gomphus, Jos and Harry will all get a decent patch tick or two and that is all that matters.

[Twite]

That they are colonising so quickly is evidence of what is actually the true problem.

What is the true problem? Please explain if you can, why Cattle Egrets colonising new areas are evidence of the true problem or any problem for that matter.

Twite.

[Dimitris]

Ok I really shouldn't get mixed up with this but here goes.

I won't repeat what everyone has said about invasive species etc, but I'll just look a the Cattle Egret from a niche perspective.

In relation to other Heron species: Effects will probably be neligible. The CE is a field, grassland specialist (and recently a tip specialist as well) that feeds on large athropods and small vertebrates. Other Heron (and Storks, Ibis and Cranes for that matter) use the same habitat, but do not rely on it excusively on it and lack the specialization of CE (feeding close to large animals). Additionaly the arrival of CE in the Americas and Australia probably did not affect endemic Heron species, if anything the populations remained stable.

In relation to other birds: Perhaps one habit of the CE that people should be concerned about is that it preys on the young of terns & seabirds when it finds their colonies. But then again a CE will think twice before entering a tern colony or trying to snatch the youngster of a pair of angry Lapwings. Songbirds, groundbirds etc will probably not be affected.

In relation to its prey: Britain, with it's dwindling natural areas, has, to my knowledge, a large number of threatened small critters. These have restricted habitats and low population numbers and so if an addition predator was to arrive this could tip the scales for the prey species towards extinction; especialy if the prey species has no experience with CE. This is one thing that's bad with CEs.

As to stopping the colonisation of species that have benefited from mans activities. Well why didn't you stop Yellow-legged Gulls? They are more of a worry then CEs. Also I don't understand why people want to stop evolution. Species are evolvling to the habitats and pressures we are creating. It's only natural...

Just my 2 cents,

Dimitris

[Dimitris]

So what if we lose hundreds of species of bird from Cloud Forests etc?.

Yers that is a problem, but the Cattle Egret is not the source of the problem; It's just taking advantage of it.

Is it a sign that the world is becoming a less diverse place? Maybe, but Britain will become more diverse ;)

Cheers!

Dimitris

[Jos Stratford]

Gomphus, Jos and Harry will all get a decent patch tick or two and that is all that matters.

Given that I currently live some thousands of kilometres from the UK, it is hardly likely.

Is that the best argument you can come up with? Presuming we are not overly concerned by a natural species expansion means we only think of getting ticks, now that is funny!

[Richard Klim]

I have consistently emphasised that my concerns lie almost exclusively with the underlying reasons for the astonishing success of Cattle Egret, which is why I have some difficulty in automatically regarding its continued proliferation as a positive development.

I have not seen a study that has specifically assessed the potential impacts (beneficial or adverse) upon existing species populations (birds and otherwise) of a potential colonisation of the British Isles – but perhaps there has been such an exercise?

A quick Google revealed the following snippet (but, to be clear, I am definitely not trying to argue that such factors would necessarily apply in a British context):

"Success comes at a price ... So adaptable are (Cattle Egrets) that since the late 1800s they have expanded their range across half the world. Their increasing numbers though may also account for decreases in native wetland birds: this because of the increasing competition for food and nest areas, and the fact that the egrets directly prey upon the young of other birds."

Anyway, let's just agree to differ:

- I clearly have to accept that many (probably most) birders genuinely consider the possibility that Cattle Egret may colonise the British Isles to be a welcome dividend of global environmental change;

- and although I would certainly not be celebrating, neither will I be stalking the cattle pastures of SW England with a loaded shotgun!

[Gomphus]

So what if we lose hundreds of species of bird from Cloud Forests etc?Gomphus, Jos and Harry will all get a decent patch tick or two and that is all that matters.

I resent that you would think I'm that shallow, I don't care about whether CE colonises or not for something as worthless as a tick, I do care that we are wrecking the planet...but this thread is about Cattle Egrets not Climate Change etc?

In relation to its prey: Britain, with it's dwindling natural areas, has, to my knowledge, a large number of threatened small critters. These have restricted habitats and low population numbers and so if an addition predator was to arrive this could tip the scales for the prey species towards extinction; especialy if the prey species has no experience with CE. This is one thing that's bad with CEs.

Yes you are right Dimitris that could be a problem, but its the question do we have the right to involve ourselves in what is essentially natural selection at work? I don't know....

Also I don't understand why people want to stop evolution. Species are evolvling to the habitats and pressures we are creating. It's only natural...

Dimitris Thats what I was trying to understand too?

Now its argued that we affect this because we have artificially changed the enviroment but we will always affect something no matter if we addressed the whole problem we see at the moment, we are part of the ecosystem and when we interact with it there will always be species that benefit or lose through our relationship with the enviroment. We are integral with the system, we cannot escape it we will always effect it one way or another, we are so successful...untill the flu wipes us out of course....

That they are colonising so quickly is evidence of what is actually the true problem. Are we sure...evidence?

Cheers

[Dimitris]

Yes you are right Dimitris that could be a problem, but its the question do we have the right to involve ourselves in what is essentially natural selection at work? I don't know....

Dimitris Thats what I was trying to understand too?

Now its argued that we affect this because we have artificially changed the enviroment but we will always affect something no matter if we addressed the whole problem we see at the moment, we are part of the ecosystem and when we interact with it there will always be species that benefit or lose through our relationship with the enviroment. We are integral with the system, we cannot escape it we will always effect it one way or another, we are so successful...untill the flu wipes us out of course....


Gomphus I 100% agree with you. Every species affects its enviroment; we are just too good at it. As for the pressures on the fragmented British ecosystem, some would argue that it is unatural and as thus we should directly intervene (even though we unconsciously created it) to prevent extinctions. But habitat fragmentantions happens naturarly as well (fires, earthquakes that sink landmasses and create islands etc) and the CE would arrive and have the same effect 'naturarly'.

So what do we do? I say let nature take her course. It is not Cane Toads we are talking about and the birds arrived on their own steam. In the distant future perhaps there will be such a thing as the Brittish Cattle Egret.

Concerning the connection between CEs and the loss of rainforest. Some people are missing the link in between: Humans! As I said earlier it is not the CEs fault, it's just taking advantage of the situation.

Cheers!

Dimitris

[Jos Stratford]

A quick Google revealed the following snippet (but, to be clear, I am definitely not trying to argue that such factors would necessarily apply in a British context):

"Success comes at a price ... So adaptable are (Cattle Egrets) that since the late 1800s they have expanded their range across half the world. Their increasing numbers though may also account for decreases in native wetland birds: this because of the increasing competition for food and nest areas, and the fact that the egrets directly prey upon the young of other birds."

Without a source, what value is this quote? Is it the result of a study or simply someone's opinion? It is also worth remembering there is a 'may' in the middle of that quote. So, as it stands, it is someone has been doing some writing and thinks it may account for decreases in other birds.

[Hotspur]

Well the original idea behind the thread before it was hijacked by eco-mentalists who want to blame global warming on Cattle Egrets ;) had a really good point. Is it not time for all bird news services to stop reporting groups of Cattle Egrets - perhaps only reporting singles?

[Jos Stratford]

my concerns lie almost exclusively with the underlying reasons for the astonishing success of Cattle Egret

Could you say categorically the reasons for the expansion of Cattle Egret across the globe?

[stevo]

Surely the biggest INVASIVE species on the planet is MAN & why shouldn`t Cattle egret be protected.

Steve.

[tittletattler]

Surely the biggest INVASIVE species on the planet is MAN & why shouldn`t Cattle egret be protected.
Steve.

Again, I can't disagree with either of these comments either.

I don't see myself as someone who could be called an 'environmentalist' especially as I know I don't do enough to 'cut my carbon footprint'.

I always enjoy seeing both Cattle and Little Egrets, when the opportunity arises, but this is tinged with concern that they have arrived here in Britain as a consequence of something rather more sinister. To quote from a particularly bad B-movie: "We may have seen the begininning of what may be the end of us" (a pint to whoever can name the film).

It seems hard to celebrate when evidence shows that other species are in decline. Migrants seem to be in decline as they become out of kilter with the climate in Britain and arrive too late as a consequence of climate change. Other species are shifting their breeding ranges at a rapid rate.

To say 'where's the proof' is narrow-minded especially as the evidence mounts up globally. Even the arrival of three 1sts for Britain could be attributed to climate change in just the last 2 years.

Well done to those species that have taken the opportunity to take advantage and yes, we should protect them. But celebrating their arrival is a different matter altogether.

[Jos Stratford]

Even the arrival of three 1sts for Britain could be attributed to climate change in just the last 2 years.

But celebrating their arrival is a different matter altogether.

Long live the doom mongers, better all species are in decline and the world is toppling forever into an abyss, then at least some people will be happy.

The global expansion of Cattle Egrets is a little difficult to lay simply on the door of climate change, they have expanded in the tropics as much as into temperate regions. Was the colonisation of the Americas a result of climate change?

Can't win, if a species is declining, we should feel guilty, if it is increasing, we should feel guilty too.


And now, a new species for the country should herald national mourning too? Tut tut, the naughty twitchers, not only guzzling petrol, flushing tired migrants and pissing off locals by peering into their gardens and parking in their specially reserved bits of street, but those despicable listers don't even express a twinge of guilt when feasting their eyes. ;) I must remember to look glum next time I see something rare.


If a slight element of sarcasm is noted, do please forgive me, but is it really necessary that every second thread is hijacked and turned it into something about global warming or about the sins of whatever.

[tittletattler]

Long live the doom mongers,......

Assuming that climate change doesn't wipe them out. ;)

If a slight element of sarcasm is noted, do please forgive me, but is it really necessary that every second thread is hijacked and turned it into something about global warming or about the sins of whatever.

That's a fair point. But then you and others do hijack every twitching thread with your anti-twitcher sentiment so what goes around........

[Jos Stratford]

But then you and others do hijack every twitching thread with your anti-twitcher sentiment so what goes around........

Er, I hijack every twitching thread with anti-twitching sentiments? Do I? Eeks, I do remember commenting that I thought the spot-lighting on the Scops Owl was excessive, and maybe occasional other points relating to individual birds, but you will not find any anti-twitching posts per se by me - I twitched the Wallcreeper ...from 3500 km away! :-O

PS smily added to my above twitcher comments to clarify understanding ;)

[tittletattler]

, and maybe occasional other points relating to individual birds,

Thanks for verifying my point. 8-P

[Gomphus]

Back to the original thread, I do agree we should begin to use caution when reporting Cattle Egrets the egg thieves will be waiting to get their hands on the first Cattle Egret clutch in the UK, as well as obvious disturbance issues...of cause this may become pointless when they all up sticks and head off back to warmer climes!

Cheers

[tittletattler]

Back to the original thread, I do agree we should begin to use caution when reporting Cattle Egrets the egg thieves will be waiting to get their hands on the first Cattle Egret clutch in the UK, as well as obvious disturbance issues...of cause this may become pointless when they all up sticks and head off back to warmer climes!

Cheers

Agreed.:smoke:

[ZanderII]

The sceptical among us might not dare to hope. The colonisation of Cattle Egret - a species that has proliferated throughout the globe in the face of massive habitat loss and conversion, and now being encouraged north by global warming is a potent symbol of the homogenisation of the world's avifauna.

Z

A lot of hijacking of ideas going on here, my original point (post #4) was that the expansion of Cattle Egrets globally is related to the amount of landcover now given over to human activities. The expansion into the UK might be related to global warming. Little Egret expansion may also be a attributed to climate change - they are very sensitive to cold winters but is not likely to be attributed to anthropogenic change (except now we don't make hats out of them so they do better). Cattle Egrets themselves obviously can not be held accountable for their increase, which in a UK context at least is not likely to have any direct population-level impact on the established avifauna (which is as already pointed out not the UK climax community).

My lamentation was that this exciting colonisation event is another example of a few commensal, ruderal, synanthropic, 'weedy' (call them what you will) species doing well, while the rest go down the pan.

amen

Z

[Richard Klim]

I've just read through yesterday's continuing torrent of mostly outraged postings. Look guys, please lighten up.

OK, maybe I was a bit sarcastic about the idea of treating Cattle Egret as a sensitive breeding species. It just struck me as rather ironic given CE's rampant range expansion across the planet in the wake of large-scale land clearance (and more recently, climate change) - and consequent classification as a global invasive species. I appreciate that those concerned have nothing but the best of intentions, but CE is an exceptionally successful species that has proved more than capable of looking after itself.

My attitude obviously struck a raw nerve big time, and it is clear that I have seriously upset a number of people. Birders are extremely protective, and I realise that many consider it totally unacceptable to show to any form of disrespect to a perfectly innocent species doing what comes naturally. So, if I have offended anyone, then I apologise unreservedly.

Once again, I accept that any colonisation of the British Isles by Cattle Egret would be unlikely to have any immediate adverse effects upon our native species - and I have never suggested that we should take measures to prevent it. But to draw a parallel, the original theme of this thread seemed to me like promoting the global advance of Eurasian Collared Dove, another species which manages this quite well without our assistance.

I regret having helped to kick off such an unproductive discussion, and sincerely hope that this draws a line under it.

Richard :-C

[Dimitris]

I regret having helped to kick off such an unproductive discussion, and sincerely hope that this draws a line under it.

Richard :-C


Unproductive?! On the contrary I would say. There have been sone interesting, (semi) scientific posts in this thread.

Cheers!

Dimitris

[ColinD]

....I regret having helped to kick off such an unproductive discussion, and sincerely hope that this draws a line under it.


It's not been unproductive at all. These forums are to allow people to discuss things. Only by discussion and people raising issues which others may not have considered can we make a balanced descision. Sometimes that might not make for comfortable reading, but it will be a sad day when everybody agrees with what is said.

[Harry Hussey]

In the same spirit of honesty as Richard's last posting, for the record I am neither dismayed nor overjoyed at the prospect of Cattle Egret colonising: it will either happen or not, and, speaking solely from an aesthetic point of view for a while, I would rather have something other than another small white egret as our next colonist...something like Cetti's Warbler or Hobby would be nice (and, yes, I have seen these species in Ireland, so 'ticks' don't come into it!)...but, if it happens to be Cattle Egret, then so be it.
If they then go on to be common and cause problems to species of conservation concern at a few localities (like corvids etc do at the Kilcoole Little Tern colony, say), then I wouldn't be too upset if control measures were undertaken at said localities as they are with corvids and gulls today. Until such time as they may cause problems, however, I would just treat them as a new addition to our avifauna.
As a matter of interest, and going off on a different tangent, are populations of the Asian race (coromandus) also thriving (I presume so, given the past colonisation of Australia), or is it 'just' the nominate race that appears to be attempting to gain a worldwide distribution?
Regards,
Harry

[Xenospiza]

The “Eastern” Cattle Egret was very common in the two very separate ends of its range I've visited – so I'd say it's thriving.

I should note that both in Belgium and Germany feral Cattle Egrets occur... although they won't be responsible for the recent invasion.