Any Americans planning a Euro bin purchase?

[Marley]

Hi All,

With the horrible Dollar/Euro exhange rate, I wondered if the associated high prices have finally pushed most of the Americans out of the new bin market.

Is it used bins on E-Bay for the foreseeable future for us Americans? (not that it would hurt us to save some money!)

Just wondering if anyone in the States was planning to buy a new pair of Z/L/S bins.

Thanks,

Steffan

[J. Moore]

Just wondering if anyone in the States was planning to buy a new pair of Z/L/S bins.

Certainly not me. I think an American company, Vortex, is beating all those in terms of price/performance ratio. Their Viper and Razor lines, for example, have been especially well reviewed. Another American company, Leupold, also looks to have some nice offerings that compare favorably with the big three in terms of price/performance. (Though I have not personally tried the products of the latter).

My two cents,
Jim

[Alexis Powell]

Sure, Vortex is a company, but when discussing the "nationality" of optics, I think it would be more accurate to call Vortex an American brand on Japanese and Chinese binoculars. I don't care much about country of origin myself, but to me European glass refers to binos manufactured and made by European manufacturers in Europe. Similarly, Nikon's best have generally been made in Japan, so those models are truly Japanese binoculars.

--AP

[fugl]

My impression is that Vortex is little more than a marketing company. I wonder how much, if any, design imput it has in the products it sells?

[J. Moore]

Sure, Vortex is a company, but when discussing the "nationality" of optics, I think it would be more accurate to call Vortex an American brand on Japanese and Chinese binoculars. I don't care much about country of origin myself

I think that is going too far. It is true the Vortex Vipers, for example, are manufactured in Japan; however, the design, specifications, warranty, design concept, pricing, etc. are all created and controlled by the American company, Vortex. I think it is somewhat similar with automobiles. Toyota and Mercedes-Benz, for example, manufacture some of their cars in the United States. But I do not think anyone would argue that Toyota is putting a Japanese brand on an American automobile.

And I should make clear that I was not trying to promote some sort of chauvinistic "buy American" stance. American companies have an advantage due to currency fluctuations, as the original poster suggested.

Best,
Jim

[J. Moore]

My impression is that Vortex is little more than a marketing company. I wonder how much, if any, design imput it has in the products it sells?

As I stated above, your impression is incorrect. As stated in the second article here (http://www.audubonbinoculars.com/news_items), "Based in Middleton Wisconsin, Vortex Optics has been designing and manufacturing its own line of optics since the late 1990’s." (I have read a more detailed article discussing the history of vortex and their design process; but cannot find it on the Internet at the moment.) In any event, I am not sure why that issue is relevant to the subject of this thread.

Best,
Jim

[etc]

I almost always buy used, off fleabay. I made an exception with Swarovski that I got new. The Big three are approaching 2K in price. I doubt I will ever get a new Leica, especially the new "HD", when I can buy a used Trinovid for 1/2 to 1/3 of its price. The value is just not there for me.

Worse, the declining Federal Reserve Note will only push the prices up and up. So spend your money now, if you need something, before the price goes up even more.

[danehower]

considering the US economy - I have two spent Sam Adams bottles and a roll of duct tape - It's gonna be great !

[fugl]

As I stated above, your impression is incorrect. As stated in the second article here (http://www.audubonbinoculars.com/news_items), "Based in Middleton Wisconsin, Vortex Optics has been designing and manufacturing its own line of optics since the late 1990’s." (I have read a more detailed article discussing the history of vortex and their design process; but cannot find it on the Internet at the moment.) In any event, I am not sure why that issue is relevant to the subject of this thread.

Best,
Jim

Maybe it's incorrect, maybe it isn't. There is nothing in the material you quote indicating the degree of "Vortex" involvement in the design process. My guess--and I'm willing to be corrected on this by someone with definite knowledge on the subject--is that this involvement is restricted to general instructions to the Asian manufacturer of the "build us binoculars (or whatever) with such and such characteristics" type. As I've said I could be wrong about this, and maybe Vortex employs teams of optical designers like Zeiss, Swarovski, Nikon and the rest, but there is nothing on its website to make me think so.

Re the "relevancy" of my original posting, threads evolve (you must know that by now). I didn't introduce Vortex, you did. I seem to have stepped on a brand loyalty--sorry about that.

[stereotruckdriver]

Not a European but, a Japanese. Like them so much going to get another pair of Pentax DCF ED's. Stereo.

[Alexis Powell]

... American companies have an advantage due to currency fluctuations, as the original poster suggested.

I can't see how this is true unless they are making their binoculars in the USA with American labor and materials. Otherwise, it's just a matter of pricing policy. The European makers can price their binoculars however they like in the USA (they aren't forced to sell them for the same price or value in the USA as in Europe after accounting for exchange rates--and indeed they don't) but the dollar has fallen so much that I guess they've reached some limits in the production cost, pricing policy, profit equation. Ironically, the value of Chinese labor and the efficiency of Japanese production is such that an American brand like Vortex is still better off having their binos made outside the USA economy (and incurring the mark-up due to exchange rates) than making them domestically.

--AP

[J. Moore]

Not a European but, a Japanese. Like them so much going to get another pair of Pentax DCF ED's. Stereo.

I agree Japanese optics seem to remain good bargains also. In addition to Pentax, the new Kowa scopes are significantly less expensive than the Swarovskis, even though reviews have found them to be optically superior. Nikon binoculars, with the unfortunate exception of the forthcoming EDG line, also seem to have retained competitive prices. But I got the impression from the comments by the Nikon representative on this forum regarding the new line, that the pricing was partly because if they were priced lower than the "big three" that would give the impression that the EDG were somehow inferior.

Best,
Jim

[J. Moore]

I can't see how this is true unless they are making their binoculars in the USA with American labor and materials. Otherwise, it's just a matter of pricing policy. The European makers can price their binoculars however they like in the USA (they aren't forced to sell them for the same price or value in the USA as in Europe after accounting for exchange rates--and indeed they don't) but the dollar has fallen so much that I guess they've reached some limits in the production cost, pricing policy, profit equation. Ironically, the value of Chinese labor and the efficiency of Japanese production is such that an American brand like Vortex is still better off having their binos made outside the USA economy (and incurring the mark-up due to exchange rates) than making them domestically.

--AP

I generally agree with what you say here, with a few qualifications. Even an American company that is contracting out its manufacturing to Asian countries will be more competitive than the European only companies because (i) they can entirely avoid the bad dollar/euro exchange rate (which I believe is worse than the differential with Asian currencies), and (ii) manufacturing is only a portion of the costs of designing, marketing, and producing binoculars for sale. An American company will still have the non-manufacturing costs paid locally.

Second, as you suggest, European companies could cut their American prices, and shrink their profit margins, to keep their prices competitive. But that proves the point that you seem to be disagreeing with -- that the American companies have an advantage due to currency differences. The American companies will have an advantage in any pricing contest. Moreover, I have not seen any signs that the European companies have been lowering prices.

Best,
Jim

[Lewie]

A Leica lover told me that virtually all bin lenses are now made in China. The Leica housing is made in Germany, and the bins are assembled in Spain or Portiugal. I would guess that it is much the same for Zeiss and Swarovski.

[Alexis Powell]

...The American companies will have an advantage in any pricing contest. Moreover, I have not seen any signs that the European companies have been lowering prices.

To see evidence of the lower pricing for the USA market, all you have to do is convert the typical sale price of L/Z/S binos in Europe in euros or British pounds to dollars. The prices in euros/pounds are substantially higher than USA pricing for the same models. It seems to me that the lower prices of Vortex optics are consistent with their Asian rather European manufacture and their lower quality in comparison to the top makes. Vortex optics seem no cheaper than any other Japanese or Chinese manufactured optics of the same quality.

--AP

[etc]

A Leica lover told me that virtually all bin lenses are now made in China. The Leica housing is made in Germany, and the bins are assembled in Spain or Portiugal. I would guess that it is much the same for Zeiss and Swarovski.


Is this really true?
Wouldn't surprise me if it is. All the cost-cutting measures everyone is taking....

[J. Moore]

To see evidence of the lower pricing for the USA market, all you have to do is convert the typical sale price of L/Z/S binos in Europe in euros or British pounds to dollars. The prices in euros/pounds are substantially higher than USA pricing for the same models. It seems to me that the lower prices of Vortex optics are consistent with their Asian rather European manufacture and their lower quality in comparison to the top makes. Vortex optics seem no cheaper than any other Japanese or Chinese manufactured optics of the same quality.

--AP

I was not saying that optics dealers charge the same prices in the U.S. and in Europe; I think European prices have been higher for many years. And vortex binoculars also appear to have higher prices in Europe than in the U.S. I think these price differences may be due to diverse factors, such as different tax systems, etc.

I seem to recall Swarovski recently increased prices in the U.S., which I think is more relevant and indicative of what is going on.

As for price/performance of vortex binoculars, I know you are not impressed with the Vortex binoculars compared with other brands, but all published reviews and many users differ with your opinion. So we will just have to agree to disagree on that point.

Cordially,
Jim

[Sancho]

Meanwhile, here we ought to be able to buy good US optics at fantastic prices. I just don't know much about them, but Leupold Gold Ring are highly spoken of, no? The only problem is the Customs lottery....if your incoming binos are opened, you get charged a hefty duty negating any saving on the exchange rate. I'm also assuming we won't be seeing any US tourists this side of the pond this year...:-C

[Lewie]

Is this really true?
Wouldn't surprise me if it is. All the cost-cutting measures everyone is taking....

That is what a fellow birder I know told me. I trust him, but I have no personal knowledge to prove or disprove what he said. But, so many products anymore have their parts made in various countries, and are assembled in yet another country. I would think the transportation costs would get rather high, but...

Lew

[oleaf]

Vortex gives very detailed engineering instructions on where to place the Vortex brand label. I couldn't resist! ;)

I'm sure Vortex gives input on rubber cover look, details in parts (eye cups, diopter control, focus knob... maybe even lens coatings) But I doubt they are sending CAD drawings of new bins. Look between their Audubon, EO, stokes and Vortex lines. They even reuse existing molds for rubber cover detail between lines! Geeesh! What brand manager is responsible for that!

Cheers.

[J. Moore]

I'm sure Vortex gives input on rubber cover look, details in parts (eye cups, diopter control, focus knob... maybe even lens coatings) But I doubt they are sending CAD drawings of new bins.

I remember reading an article specifically describing how Vortex people were selecting lens coatings--they were surprised when they discovered how they could put together a binocular with high-end lens coatings at a significantly lower price from what was usually offered. I agree they are probably not doing the type of innovative engineering that the big three or similar optics companies do themselves-- but I really do not know all the details, and I do not expect Vortex is likely to want to make public all that proprietary information. What they claim, in the articles I have read, is that they are making price/performance breakthroughs, not performance or engineering breakthroughs.

In any event, ultimately, I do not much care one way or the other. All that matters to me as an end-user is the quality of the products and the price. And I thought price was the primary focus of this thread. If you know of another company that you think has better products in terms of price/performance even for those buying in American dollars, I am sure people would be happy to hear about them. I should also add that I do not believe vortex claims to design the other lines of binoculars you mention.
Regards,
Jim

[oleaf]

Hi Jim,

Well, the people who design the Vortex line also design Eagle Optics, Stokes and Audubon (because it's the same company). Not that that's bad!

Just look at the web site. Common features and details. Now believe!

Companies who make their own stuff? Nikon, Swarovski, Leica, Zeiss, Pentax, Olympus, Meopta (heck... Meopta even makes some stuff (glass?) for one of the other Euros listed!).

I know... I know... XD glass. What the heck is XD glass! Extra Dollars!

Right now... for the dollar... the best deal going in a European binocular is Meopta. Their 8x42 is one of the best values and best performers. So... there you go. But with the dollar dropping fast... that will change soon.

Cheers

[Alexis Powell]

If you know of another company that you think has better products in terms of price/performance even for those buying in American dollars, I am sure people would be happy to hear about them.

I have no idea how to balance price versus performance, but I guess I'd consider many products from Vortex, Nikon, Pentax, Swift, Celestron and sometimes Leupold to be of comparable performance at similar prices. Vortex has brought out a flurry of new models, potentially giving them a technological advantage with the latest manufacturing techniques. I've tried quite a few of the Vortex models and find them unexceptional optically, but they're perhaps a bit nicer in fit and finish. Some, like the Viper and Razor, seem to represent a new, perhaps slightly better performing generation of "mid-priced" roofs, but I expect the next models from Nikon, Pentax etc to be comparable. Actually, I haven't tried some of the latest models from the other brands, so I don't know, for example, how the fairly recent Swift 8x42 Eaglet compares to the Vortex 8x42 Viper. I will say that I am impressed with the "value" of some of the Vortex models compared to the Eagle Optics Rangers (Platinum, SRT...) which I've always considered to be >25% overpriced compared to their equivalent competitors except when on sale.

--AP

P.S. I agree that Meopta are impressive performers by modern euro glass pricing standards.

[J. Moore]

Well, the people who design the Vortex line also design Eagle Optics, Stokes and Audubon (because it's the same company). Not that that's bad!

Just look at the web site. Common features and details. Now believe!

Sorry, I do not believe. I believe the Hamilton family owns both vortex and Eagle Optics, but I believe they are distinct entities and the brands are also distinct.

Right now... for the dollar... the best deal going in a European binocular is Meopta. Their 8x42 is one of the best values and best performers. So... there you go. But with the dollar dropping fast... that will change soon.

Never heard of them; nor can I find reviews of them. By the way, do you work in, or have some affiliation with, some aspect of the optics industry? (I definitely do not).

Jim

[burdup]

I believe that Cabela's 'Euro' line of binoculars are made by Meopta. I've never checked them out though.

Speaking of outsourcing, does anyone know where the Golden Rings are made. I can't find anything on the box, on the bin, or online! They sure have some similarities to my Swift Ultralites which are made in China.

[oleaf]

Sorry, I do not believe. I believe the Hamilton family owns both vortex and Eagle Optics, but I believe they are distinct entities and the brands are also distinct.


Never heard of them; nor can I find reviews of them. By the way, do you work in, or have some affiliation with, some aspect of the optics industry? (I definitely do not).

Jim

Jim... it all started with Eagle optics. Dan Hamiltons a smart guy and his team knows how to spec a bino at a good price point. It shows. Sure they are different brands... same mail box though. But, really I don't care.

I came to this thread because I wanted to hear about opinions on Euro brands (please read the headline Jim)

You should check out Meopta... it might open your eyes. They exist even though you've never heard of them;)

Cheers

[FrankD]

My impression is that Vortex is little more than a marketing company. I wonder how much, if any, design imput it has in the products it sells?

In regard to this comment I have to agree with J. Moore. There was an extensive article in one of the archery trade magazines on Vortex. I have it here at home with me. They do have some impressive prototype design facilities at their plant. They provide the overall specifications and send them to Japan/China to have the bins manufactured.