Exposure compensation advice please.

[senatore]

I have a 40D camera and a 400 f5.6 prime lens.

Today at a local patch a pair of Hobbies put a great display and I took loads of shots however,despite me having the exposure compensation set at + 1 1/3,allmost all of the shots were badly underexposed and beyond saving.It was not that bright a day.Two examples attached.

Other settings used : spot metering,AI servo,centre AF point.

Should I have had the exposure compensation on maximum.Any advice would be welcome.

Max.

[JohnJos]

I can't directly answer your question but this is an ongoing thread that definitely will give you some information on the subject of focus & exposure for BIF photography.

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=113374

[Keith Reeder]

Spot metering isn't always the best option, Max - in these situations it's very hard to be so accurate with the camera that the "spot" of the metering sensor is directly on the bird.

Instead, the camera is much more likely to meter off the sky, under-expose it (relatively speaking) to bring it down to 18% gray or thereabouts, even with positive EC dialled in, which will under expose the bird.

So...

Suggestion 1 - shoot RAW. I suspect that these pictures would actually be recoverable (ish), and RAW maximises your chances.

Suggestion 2 - get onto Evaluative metering, which will meter from the whole scene and produce a more evenly exposed end-result (in theory anyway), or Partial metering, which is actually recommended for situations where the background is much brighter than the subject.

[IanF]

The simple solution is to use EV compensation. I leave my camera set of spot metering 99% of the time. With birds against a bright sky mostly +1.0 EV is sufficent but I find the 40D handles it very well and often use +1.3 or +1.7 EV.

[Keith Reeder]

Ian, Max had his camera on +1.3 EV.

[IanF]

You're right. I'd have said that was easily enough in these conditions - mind you though not being a bright day can be more difficult than if it was bright and sunny as there would be less light reflected from the ground to the under side of the bird so there'd be less under wing detail.

An alternative would be to meter from the ground and swap to manual exposure using those settings.

[rentoncharman]

I usually use evaluative metering for birds in flight. This must be more consistent than spot metering when trying to "spot" on a moving bird is very difficult for me. If the sky is very bright I have used +2 EV or even more with the 1dMkIII to expose the shadowy underneath of the bird well. Another option I have used when shooting in consistent light is manual exposure. Just a few shots are needed to find optimum exposure settings - this often works very well - agreeing with Ian on this one.

[Keith Reeder]

Don't get me wrong guys, I usually use spot and EC myself, but - having had my fair share of similar shots and finally managing to figure out why - I've realised that using Evaluative just makes life a bit easier because positioning of the metering sensor spot becomes much less critical to the end result.

[RJL2005]

I experienced similar in Tanzania last year. I found that sometimes you just can't shoot against a hazy white sky and expect good results, I guess the contrast is just to great. What ever metering mode I used both with and without EC seemed to fail.

[paul goode]

I'd certainly meter manually in that situation. The thread linked to previously has an excellent post on manual metering.

[iveljay]

As you are shooting in 'plan view' (straight up) another vote for manual - I am a bit inclined to use a separate incident meter since I use them for film, however metering off shadowed part of a brick building or similar should be a good start.

Simplifying it a bit you are basically using the light that has been bounced off the ground and then reflected from the bird. Not surprising that its lost a bit along the way! Once you have an approximate reading, RAW development will give you adequate leeway for final correction.

Try dropping the contrast a bit can also help to bring out tonal variation but may worsen any lack of detail due to haze etc.

[senatore]

Thanks everyone for all the advice.I am now going to check out the other thread.

Max.

[ukjesters]

I tend to use centre weighted metering on my 1d mk11n, but i do remember reading somewhere that as a good general guide if the subject is backlit as were those lovely hobbies then dial in + 2 stops of compensation and if the subject was sidelit then to dial in + 1 stop of compensation. I'm by no way an expert but it does seem to work for me.

Regards
Rick

[Roy C]

I have been using the manual exposure method for the past couple of days Max after seeing it on the other thread. Went out yesterday and metered off some grass that was in the sun (partial metering ) and set manual from that, worked a treat for BIF. Only thing you have to watch is that the subject is in the same light conditions. Yesterday was a sunny day so it worked out 1/1250, at f5.6 and ISO 400. The day before it was cloudy and came in at 1/800, at f5.6 and ISO 400.

[GYRob]

I have been using the manual exposure method for the past couple of days Max after seeing it on the other thread. Went out yesterday and metered off some grass that was in the sun (partial metering ) and set manual from that, worked a treat for BIF. Only thing you have to watch is that the subject is in the same light conditions. Yesterday was a sunny day so it worked out 1/1250, at f5.6 and ISO 400. The day before it was cloudy and came in at 1/800, at f5.6 and ISO 400.

iv worked this way for years its the only way to get very close to the right exsposure your first shot is the guide then ajust as needed and as Roy says as long as the light stays the same very little ajustment is requiered
Rob.

[Keith Reeder]

its the only way to get very close to the right exsposure .
I wouldn't go that far, Rob.

I have no problem with getting my exposures right (I honestly can't remember the last time I binned a picture purely because I'd stuffed the exposure) and all I do is let the camera do the bulk of the work, with me dialling in a little bit of EC as I think might be needed (which to be honest isn't usually very much).

These are typical examples - there's a high dynamic range in some of 'em, but they look fine in exposure terms, and all without anything but auto exposure and a bit of EC where needed (and - in the case of the crow and the duck - only auto exposure, no EC at all. The 40D does seem very forgiving in terms of exposure handling).

I select the appropriate EC based on nothing but experience/intuition/pot luck - delete as necessary!

;)

Of course, I take a slightly relaxed approach to exposure and happily push my luck (I'm aware of how innuendo-laden that comment is!), because I'm confident that I can recover almost-blown highlights at the conversion stage or in PP.

I'm basically just saying that there's more than one way to skin this particular cat...

[GYRob]

Keith dialling in EC is not really any diffrent to Manully setting exsposure your doing the same thing accessing the shot then add subtract EC
But Manule stops the camera from making any auto ajustments at all using EC does not stop that from happerning
My wording was not the right way to put it of cause its not the only way but for sky shots its a very good way of doint it.
Rob.

[Keith Reeder]

Keith dialling in EC is not really any different to manually setting exposure you're doing the same thing accessing the shot then add subtract EC

Well it kinda is different Rob, in that I'm only making an adjustment to the camera's decisions if I think it is needed - and often (in my experience) it isn't, which is my point.

Your suggestion that the "only" way to get good exposure is to - in effect - take the camera out of the equation, is what I'm politely disagreeing with, because it is potentially misleading.

We don't want folk going away with the impression that cameras can't auto expose efficiently, because they absolutely can.

So there's basically a different mindset going on here, and my point is that (as with the crow and the duck above) the camera is in fact more than able to make a good job of exposure, more often than not, without there being a need for us to "interfere".

I want an easy life, and I actually appreciate the fact that I can rely on my cameras to do this part of the job - and do it well, for the most part.

[GYRob]

We are not going to agree Keith as i use the cameras meter as a guide and set manuly so im doing my EC from the start taking into account the histergram and how the image looks on the LCD .
I never let the camera decied for me but its ok by me if anyone does and are happy with the results the OP wasn't and shows why EC is not the way to go imho i might add.
Rob.

[Roy C]

The manual method is very useful for birds against a bright sky especially when they are small in the frame as max's shots were. In this case it would have depended on how much of the subject was covered by the spot. Even dialing in +2 would still have underexposed this shot as far as I can see. I have had the same trouble when shooting buzzards from afar - tried manual on a Buzzard yesterday that was very small in the frame and it exposed crack on (not the the shot was any good but it was just a trial).
I shall continue to use my method of adjusting the EV (I have the C switches set to 0, +1 and +2 for instant access) for normal conditions but have the manual exposure set for flyer's and the like in the prevailing light.
Having said that, it is probably just as easy to change the exposure in Manual as you only have to turn the thumb wheel to alter the shutter speed. That way you have the best of both worlds.

[senatore]

Thanks again Guys.

Max.

[senatore]

Hi Guys I've now had a chance to have another go at the Hobbies and try out some new settings both were set at f5.6,AV,EC at +2 and AI Servo with one with Partial metering and all focussing points and the other with Spot metering and centre focussing point.

My observations were :-

* This time it was a sunny day ( the previous poor shots were taken on a bright day with no sun) and there was light reflected up from the ground which is very helpful.

* I cannot say which settings were the better of the two as you cannot take the exact same shot with each setting to compare.The position of the bird in the sky relative to the sun seemed to be much more important.

* It's pretty obvious to say but the better shots were taken when the bird was a lower in the sky and the sun was behind you thus lighting up the bird.Of course I still took loads but shots right overhead and when the bird is between you and the sun which is a waste of time.

* When using all the focussing points/partial metering the focussing points didn't light up when focussing was obtained.Is this normal?

I think either of these settings is OK and will get good results but I think the best advice is to rattle off loads of shots and hope that in some of them you,the bird and the sun are in the right positions.

Some of the better shots are attached showing that not all of the BIF shots I take are black blobs.

Thanks again for your help.

Max.

[gmax]

Great shots Max .. are they taken handheld or what?

[Boy George]

* When using all the focussing points/partial metering the focussing points didn't light up when focussing was obtained.Is this normal?



Hi Max,

Yes, I think that with AI Servo, for the focusing points not to light up is normal as in this mode focus is not set until the picture is taken.

Brilliant pics BTW - very gratifying for you no doubt.

Adrian

[jacksnipe]

good shotts,nowt wrong with them.

[IanF]

You've certainly nailed them Max :t:

[Roy C]

Nice shots of a great BOP Max. I have been using Manual for birds in the full light over the past few days and have had some good success.

[GYRob]

Super shot senatore youv got these sorted out .
Rob.

[senatore]

Great shots Max .. are they taken handheld or what?

Hi Max,
Yes hand held.I am too pathetic to carry bins,the camera and a tripod around.

Max.

[senatore]

Thanks for the comments everyone.Those shots prove that if you take enough you'll get some decent ones.

Roy : I am going to show my ignorance again here but could you tell me about how you use Manual for your shots.

Max.

[Roy C]

Thanks for the comments everyone.Those shots prove that if you take enough you'll get some decent ones.

Roy : I am going to show my ignorance again here but could you tell me about how you use Manual for your shots.

Max.
Hi Max, What I have been doing is taking a reading off grass or the like in the full light and using that setting to set the manual exposure. I use AV mode, ISO 400 and f5.6 to take the reading, if it shows say 1/1250 sec then you use these setting in manual mode. Remember in manual to set the ISO to 400, the aperture to f5.6 and dial in 1/1250 sec (or whatever reading you get).
Now whenever a bird is in the full light (like a BIF or perching on a high branch) just flick to manual mode and shoot away - it remembers the settings. Using this method you do not need to dial in any EV compensation and should get the exposure right. Note that if the bird is in shade or you are shooting directly into the sun then the exposure will not be correct also look out for changing conditions/light. I took this shot yesterday on manual and exposure was more or less spot on.

[senatore]

Thanks Roy I'll give it a go next time.

Max.

[Neil]

I use Manual Exposure all the time for flight shots. In fact I use it almost all the time when photography waders and egrets too. I like to Auto Focus off head/neck or legs so you can't rely on Auto Exposure if you have grey/white/dark birds.
Take a few tests shots to set it up and then check against the histogram as you go. You will blow the highlights in a grey sky to get the right exposure on a dark bird in flight.
Neil.