Ship Assisted Vagrants - or not.

[tom mckinney]

Happy new year etc...

I don't know if any of you are subscribed to "Lincsbirdnews" emails, but there a very interesting thread at the moment about ship assisted birds, especially in relation to the American Robin in Grimsby.
What are peoples views on the validity of ticking a bird that may have been ship assisted?
There are some glaringly obvious birds (NOT the Robin) that I won't mention for fear of getting lynched (we all know which ones!)
My own view is that provided it has survived a crossing without being caged and released there is no reason why it can't be considered tickable.
Tom Mc

[Ashley beolens]

I'd agree its made the journey using what ever means it can, if it had stopped on an island/oil rig somewhere it would still be OK, so why do we concern ourselves with ships? As long as it has not been kept onboard the ship i.e it is free to fly away, then there is no problem in my opinion.

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Tom,

The BOU say you can tick them, so I'd go ahead and tick them

Michael

[Bluetail]

The BBRC's rationale (and, I assume, the BOU's) is that ships are a regular feature of the natural environment and if birds are sensible enough to take advantage of them, fine. I suspect it's really their pragmatic solution to the fact that there's absolutely no way on knowing for sure which birds have or haven't hitched a lift at some point!

Jason

[GreatHornedOwl]

A few years ago there was the case of the group of Canadian Snowy owls who came on board of the Federal Saguenay (a steel cargo to Zelzate, Belgium). Some got off near the English coast and were seen in England I believe... did you regard them as valid records or not? I think in Belgium and the Netherlands they were valid. (why not, after all)

[Tim Allwood]

tick whatever YOU want

if it's been on a ship, it's been on a ship....you can tick it if you want to.

lots of 'vagrants' could be escapes, ship assists etc you'll never know. A very experienced birder I was chatting to the other day reckoned the Black Lark was 'dodgy'.

personally I don't tick any of em so don't have that dilemma!

[Jane Turner]

For me there is a huge difference between "happened to be lost over the gulf of Mexico and landed by choice on a passing ship"...(even if fed on the way over)

and "got locked into a grain silo and shipped over with the grain"!

[Andrew Whitehouse]

So is that Sheathbill that came back with the Naval fleet from the Falklands on the British list now. And if not, why is it different to other ship-assisted birds?

[Bluetail]

The Sheathbill was fed by the sailors - damn them!!!!

Jason

[GreatHornedOwl]

The Sheathbill was fed by the sailors - damn them!!!!

Jason


Doesn't that count? ... gosh... we're lucky then that those Snowy owls two years ago looked conveniently hungry and miserable.

:frog:

[Bluetail]

That's right. If the bird is allowed to make whatever use it likes of human artefacts, but if it is intentionally aided by humans, it is not regarded as having got here "naturally". So a bird has to get here under its own steam, even if it uses human steam, if you'll pardon the idiom.

Jason

[Bluetail]

Oh, and if you're going to feed a bird on board ship, make sure no one sees you!

Jason

[GreatHornedOwl]

That's right. If the bird is allowed to make whatever use it likes of human artefacts, but if it is intentionally aided by humans, it is not regarded as having got here "naturally". So a bird has to get here under its own steam, even if it uses human steam, if you'll pardon the idiom.

Jason


Ooops.......I recall now: the most miserable one of the Snowies was fed a dead black-headed gull by the Canadian sailors. Damnation too, then, on them Canucks. ;)

[Michael Frankis]

The BBRC and BOURC have recently set up a joint inquisition & interrogation team to question ships' officers and crew to find out if birds were fed and watered on board or not; I believe they may be empowered to use the cat'o'nine tails and other unspecified 'aids to interrogation'.

:king:

[Tim Allwood]

is that serious Michael - I hope not!

......aha I see not

[Michael Frankis]

is that serious Michael - I hope not!

......aha I see not
I don't see how else they'll be able to categorise records accurately . . . :h?:

:flyaway:

[GreatHornedOwl]

The BBRC and BOURC have recently set up a joint inquisition & interrogation team to question ships' officers and crew to find out if birds were fed and watered on board or not; I believe they may be empowered to use the cat'o'nine tails and other unspecified 'aids to interrogation'.

:king:


Keelhauling too? ;)

[Michael Frankis]

Keelhauling too? ;)
My lips are sealed . . . I cannot possibly comment on operational matters

[GreatHornedOwl]

My lips are sealed . . . I cannot possibly comment on operational matters


Well I think they should be permitted all possible means to extricate correct information from unwilling sailors - after all this is a question of to tick or not to tick.

[Cuckoo-shrike]

Well I think they should be permitted all possible means to extricate correct information from unwilling sailors - after all this is a question of to tick or not to tick.

Would that include the use of Jeremy Paxman??

[GreatHornedOwl]

Would that include the use of Jeremy Paxman??


"Newsnight" ... nah... He never even asked J K Rowling if Harry Potter had the required CITES documents to legally keep a Snowy owl. Man's useless.

[Bluetail]

"Newsnight" ... nah... He never even asked J K Rowling if Harry Potter had the required CITES documents to legally keep a Snowy owl. Man's useless.Would he need them for a bird he got off a Canadian sailor?

Jason

[GreatHornedOwl]

Would he need them for a bird he got off a Canadian sailor?

Jason

The bird would be confiscated. The Canuck would be in big trouble - especially so if he also fed the bird during the voyage.

:bounce:

[Denis J]

So what they say is if a bird lands on a ship and spends 4 days crossing the Atlantic you can tick it but if a sailor feels sorry for it an throws it a half eaten ham sarnie it then becomes untickable ...seems a bit silly to me I mean someone has been feeding a certain oriole for a month meaning it has no need to leave the area in search of food, this artificially keeps it in one place therefore you can all scratch it off your lists!

[Bluetail]

Indeed, but why stop there? What about all those finches that survive the winter on seeds left in the fields by farmers? I'm sure the ruling just amounts to the BBRC and BOU admitting defeat over an unanswerable question. What else could they do? The only other logical alternative would have been to reject all American vagrants on the grounds that they could never know that any particular bird hadn't hitched a lift.

Jason

[Jane Turner]

only other logical alternative would have been to reject all American vagrants on the grounds that they could never know that any particular bird hadn't hitched a lift.

Jason


What a great idea... that would give me a respectable looking list again! (in comparison to others)

[Cuckoo-shrike]

[QUOTE=Bluetail]Indeed, but why stop there? What about all those finches that survive the winter on seeds left in the fields by farmers? I'm sure the ruling just amounts to the BBRC and BOU admitting defeat over an unanswerable question. What else could they do? The only other logical alternative would have been to reject all American vagrants on the grounds that they could never know that any particular bird hadn't hitched a lift.

It thus follows that all rare migrants would have to be rejected on the same grounds. That would cut the British list in half!

[Michael Frankis]

The only reason they have this rule about not being fed is to keep Snowy Sheathbill off the UK list!

One other thought - most Glaucous and Iceland Gulls in Britain arrive following fishing boats, because they get fed on scraps thrown out for them . . . maybe these two should be struck off the British List?

Michael

[Tim Allwood]

bottom line:

it may have hitched a lift - you will never know

deal with it

[Denis J]

The only reason they have this rule about not being fed is to keep Snowy Sheathbill off the UK list!

One other thought - most Glaucous and Iceland Gulls in Britain arrive following fishing boats, because they get fed on scraps thrown out for them . . . maybe these two should be struck off the British List?

Michael

So following this logic how many people have been on a pelagic trip and thrown chum over the side

Thinking about it this birding hobby is quite artifical isn't it?

[Ashley beolens]

If anyone remebers there was a catbird on board the QEII, that was fed and therefore not accepted, although I don't think it left the boat. Problem is no one will ever know if birds are fed to keep them on a boat.

[Tim Allwood]

yes Ash, precisely.

tick em all or tick none - forget the pseudo-intellectual debates

[Jane Turner]

Just rule out the ones that appear in grain terminals afte the case is opened ;)

[GreatHornedOwl]

It seems that the ship-assisted Snowy owls of two years ago were eventually released in Finland instead of being shipped back to Canada... So doesn't that make all European Snowy owl sightings doubtful ? ;)