US Redpolls

[streatham]

Help - I'm kind of confused about the whole Redpoll issue Common/Hoary. In some US books it seems to question whether there are evn two species, in others it names at least 2 subspecies of Hoary. Can anybody suggest some reading material or a thread I can look at on here - I have searched but I couldn't find anything.

Thanks in advance - Luke

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Luke,

It is a very complex issue . . .

Of redpoll taxa currently accepted, there's two wide-range forms:

flammea - Common Redpoll a.k.a. Mealy Redpoll: circumpolar subarctic, eastern Canada west across N America & northern Eurasia to Norway

exilipes - Hoary Redpoll a.k.a. Arctic Redpoll: circumpolar arctic, eastern Canada west across N America & northern Eurasia to Norway; currently treated as a race of hornemanni but may actually be more closely related to flammea than it is to hornemanni.

and four restricted-range forms:

cabaret - Lesser Redpoll: Britain & central Europe; recently split from flammea to be a species in its own right, though some dispute this and say it should be retained in flammea as a race.

rostrata - Greenland Redpoll: Greenland & Baffin Island (Canada); currently treated as a race of flammea, though this has been disputed, it may be closer to hornemanni than to flammea.

islandica - Iceland Redpoll: Iceland endemic; currently treated as a race of flammea, though this has also been questioned, may be more related to hornemanni.

hornemanni - Greenland Arctic/Hoary Redpoll: Greenland, Baffin & Ellesmere Islands (Canada); currently including exilipes as a race, though as said above, open to dispute.

In CT mostly you'll be getting flammea, but the occasional wintering exilipes, rostrata and hornemanni could all occur rarely.

There's been a few recent threads here on BF that might be worth reading through - let us know if they help out, or just confuse you even more!

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=10037
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=10725
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=7540

Oh, and just to make things more difficult - there's (probably) some individuals of all the races which are impossible to identify. The range of characters overlaps between (probably) all of them. There's even some evidence to suggest, as with crossbill identification, that even DNA tests cannot be relied on to distinguish them . . . :h?::h?: :h?:

Michael

[GreatHornedOwl]

Interesting post Michael, thanks. So which ones do we get in Belgium - cabaret, and flammea in winter?

[streatham]

Hi Michael,

Thanks for the info - complex seems like an understatement ;) Interesting reading anyway. As of yet there hasn't been much Redpoll/winter finch activity in CT this year - so I must be one of the few people here hoping that the weather takes a turn for the worse.

Regards Luke

[Glen Tepke]

cabaret - Lesser Redpoll: Britain & central Europe; recently split from flammea to be a species in its own right, though some dispute this and say it should be retained in flammea as a race.

Just to add to the confusion, Clements, whose taxonomy is followed by the American Birding Association for world listing, recently re-lumped Lesser and Common/Mealy after splitting them three years ago:

http://www.ibispub.com/updates.html

(third from the bottom). Glen

[Glen Tepke]

As of yet there hasn't been much Redpoll/winter finch activity in CT this year - so I must be one of the few people here hoping that the weather takes a turn for the worse.

This has been a good winter for Redpolls in New England. Lots of Commons being seen, including a few in Connecticut I think, and several Hoaries (all reportedly the exilipes subspecies) in New Hampshire and a couple in Massacusetts. With the current cold snap, you might get your wish with some movement futher south. Glen

[Michael Frankis]

Interesting post Michael, thanks. So which ones do we get in Belgium - cabaret, and flammea in winter?
Hi GHO,

Yes, and very occasionally, a few exilipes. The last big exilipes influx was in the 1995/96 winter, when a record-breaking 431 were accepted by the British Birds Rarities Committee for Britain; the invasion was also recorded all along the European coast from Denmark to northern France.

Michael

[streatham]

Hi Glen,

Just got back from a trip to Newport, RI and Cape Cod. I was hoping to pick up a Redpoll somewhere along the way but unfortunately no such luck (although I did get to see some other great birds). I have been jealously reading the MASSBIRD reports of birds around Plum Island etc. As you say, with the weather promised for the next week or so maybe we'll get lucky at some point soon.

Luke

[Michael Frankis]

Just to add to the confusion, Clements, whose taxonomy is followed by the American Birding Association for world listing, recently re-lumped Lesser and Common/Mealy after splitting them three years ago:

http://www.ibispub.com/updates.html

(third from the bottom). GlenHi Glen,

To quote Clements:
December 15, 2003. Page 642
Lesser Redpoll, which was split from the Common Redpoll in the December 31, 2000 update, is now lumped once again as the race cabaret of the Common Redpoll. Ottvall, R., S. Bensch, G. Walinder and J. T. Lifjeld. 2003. No evidence of genetic differentiation between Lesser Redpolls Carduelis flammea cabaret and Common Redpolls Carduelis f. flammea. Avian Science 2 (4): 237-244.
- The problem is, as far as I know (sorry, I don't have details of the research), there's also no evidence of genetic differentiation between exilipes and flammea. Ditto for Red & White-winged Crossbills, and I believe also not between Golden-crowned Sparrow and White-crowned Sparrow

The logic is that either cabaret should be split, or else that all the redpolls should be lumped into one species

Michael

[Glen Tepke]

Just got back from a trip to Newport, RI and Cape Cod. I was hoping to pick up a Redpoll somewhere along the way but unfortunately no such luck (although I did get to see some other great birds). I have been jealously reading the MASSBIRD reports of birds around Plum Island etc. As you say, with the weather promised for the next week or so maybe we'll get lucky at some point soon.

Hi Luke,

If Plum I. and Salisbury are too far to drive (and redpolls have been pretty erratic there anyway) you might try central/western Mass, such as around Quabbin Reservoir or in the Berkshires. But they are thinly distributed and move around a lot, so it's always a crapshoot. The best bet might be Keene, New Hampshire, where Commons and a few Hoaries have been reported frequently over the last few weeks. See NH.birds for details. But even that is not a sure thing. We went there on New Years Day to try for the Hoaries and saw nothing. Glen

[Glen Tepke]

The problem is, as far as I know (sorry, I don't have details of the research), there's also no evidence of genetic differentiation between exilipes and flammea. Ditto for Red & White-winged Crossbills, and I believe also not between Golden-crowned Sparrow and White-crowned Sparrow

Very interesting. I don't know much about DNA analysis, but since the crossbills and the sparrows have clear plumage differences without much, if any, intergradation that I am aware of, and since these must be inherited characteristics, is the issue that DNA analysis is not sensitive enought to detect very small differences? Glen

[GreatHornedOwl]

I don't want to stir the pot here, but what about the Twite? That looks Redpollish as well. :):):):):)

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Glen,

Not really sure myself, but the suggestions are (1) researchers haven't yet found or researched the part of the DNA that codes for the plumage characters, and (2) that a low level of interbreeding allows for the transfer of genes between the taxa. There's a lot of research into this problem been done with darwin's finches on Galapagos, but I've not read up on it in any detail.

Hi GHO,

In appearance and behaviour, Twite is much more distinct, more closely related to Linnet than to the redpolls. But no doubt a genetic study of all the finches would throw up some surprises!

Michael

[Harry Hussey]

Hi Michael,
'The last big exilipes influx was in the 1995/96 winter, when a record-breaking 431 were accepted by the British Birds Rarities Committee for Britain; the invasion was also recorded all along the European coast from Denmark to northern France.'
How many reached Ireland in that influx?Well,we could count them on the fingers of no hands....
All of the Irish records to date(at least 3 accepted records,all since 2000) have been in autumn at coastal hotspots.
Harry H

[GreatHornedOwl]

Hi GHO,

In appearance and behaviour, Twite is much more distinct, more closely related to Linnet than to the redpolls. But no doubt a genetic study of all the finches would throw up some surprises!

Michael


I know, Michael ;) . Not that I've already added the Twite to my list, but I know that it's more like a Carduelis cannabina.

I believe genetic studies to demonstrate how species are related are done with regular intervals.... one study will argue that Cabaret is a separate species, another will point out again that it isn't...
You're right, a genetic study of all the finch species might throw up surprises. But then, I believe the most unlikely hybrids of finch species are bred in captivity (why the (illegal) keepers of finches need to do that is completely beyond me), and I'm sure that fe. hybrids of Goldfinches and Greenfinches exist, and they sure are different species.

I believe I once read something on the internet about Snowy owls being VERY closely related to the American Great Horned Owl, maybe to the extent that GHO could be the ancestor of the Snowy . Interesting. ;)