All focus points ?

[JohnZ]

I actually tried the "All focus points" on my 40D on Saturday and, to be honest, it was a total disaster. I have to confess that I was trying to take piccies of Swifts so it may have been a bit of a harsh test.
However I feel certain that in the 40D manual it states that if any of the focus points are over the bird, or whatever you are taking piccies of, then it will be in focus. This was clearly not the case on Saturday ! I made sure, or as sure as one can be, that in each case at least one, if not more, of the focus points was over the bird.
Back to the drawing board I suspect. Anybody else tried this ?
Thank you.

[JimMorris]

Yes I have, had about as much luck as you did to start. Try practicing on something a bit slower first. Swifts Swallows are a bit much to start out on.
Jim

[mike from ebbw]

Also try using A1 (one shot) focus as opposed to A1 servo.This is how I take my flight shots along with 400 iso and an aperture of about f8.

[Roy C]

John, in AI servo mode the initial lock must be obtained with the centre focus point after that it can be pick up by any of the focus point. You must obtain a lock-on first (which can very difficult with a bird like a swift) remember that it takes a while for the focus to lock. In AI servo mode you cannot just enable all focus points and fire away when a bird is over one of the points ( well you can actually but it will probably not be in focus).

There is some merit in using one shot with all focus points enabled - you can fire off a burst and hope that one is in focus.

I have had most success with Swallows by manually focusing on a predetermined spot/distance and letting rip when a bird comes into range.

[Roy C]

Also try using A1 (one shot) focus as opposed to A1 servo.This is how I take my flight shots along with 400 iso and an aperture of about f8.
Not sure what you mean by this Mike, There is 'one shot' 'AI Focus' and 'AI servo' but no AI one shot.
If you use AI Focus it switches to servo mode once it detect movement so might a swell be in AI servo to begin with.

[BigHdotcom]

I also have had the same problem. I thought I had a focus point on a Swift or Swallow but many were out of focus.
Only when I looked at the images in Zoom Browzer(You can use Breeze Browzer)
did I see that the focus points were not on the subject much of the time.
Both programs as most people know can show the active focus points in relation to the image.
I suggest like I did that you shoot slower moving and bigger birds such as Swans, Canada Geese, & Ducks and I am sure you will get more success
H

[mike from ebbw]

Not sure what you mean by this Mike, There is 'one shot' 'AI Focus' and 'AI servo' but no AI one shot.
If you use AI Focus it switches to servo mode once it detect movement so might a swell be in AI servo to begin with.

Sorry Roy I meant `One Shot`.As soon as I hear the beep I shoot a burst of shots.Using a smaller aperture (f8)ensures some depth of field for more chance of a sharp shot.

[JohnZ]

Thank you very much everybody. I shall heed your advice and try and put it into practice the next time I am out and about.
I did get a couple of shots of Swifts at Elmley but they are not very good.

[Roy C]

Sorry Roy I meant `One Shot`.As soon as I hear the beep I shoot a burst of shots.Using a smaller aperture (f8)ensures some depth of field for more chance of a sharp shot.
Yep, I would go along with this Mike. I have used this method myself and like you say, stopping down adds to your chances.

[Roy C]

Thank you very much everybody. I shall heed your advice and try and put it into practice the next time I am out and about.
I did get a couple of shots of Swifts at Elmley but they are not very good.
They are pretty good I reckon John, not sure that you will get a lot better with a non 1 series camera.

[IanF]

I find the same when using all focus points selected - I've yet to take a decent photo that way using the 40D. With the 20D it didn't seem to matter which focus point activated first on birds in flight but the 40D could well be set up differently.

I use AI Servo with just the centre focus point selected. Provided the Swifts are moving more or less across the field of view rather than to or from your position then once acquired focus is mostly maintained. Using the 400mm f5,6 you can leave it wide open to maximise shutter speed.

I find picking the right lighting conditions is just as important as technique. I find late evening with the sun low in the sky behind you and against a blue sky gives best results.

I'd be inclined to persevere with the Swifts. If you can manage photos of them then most other species is pretty easy to follow.

[alan carr]

I'd be inclined to persevere with the Swifts. If you can manage photos of them then most other species is pretty easy to follow.Isn't that the truth :D

[Boy George]

I find the same when using all focus points selected - I've yet to take a decent photo that way using the 40D. With the 20D it didn't seem to matter which focus point activated first on birds in flight but the 40D could well be set up differently.

Reading this thread interested me and I was about to ask the question which you appear to have answered here Ian i.e. Does the need to establish focus with the centre point first, also apply to the 20D?

I have looked through the Instruction Book but have not come up with a definitive answer, so pose the question "Is Ian's statement correct"? I hope so as it certainly would make for easier in-flight shots.

Not only that, does anyone know the answer vis-a-vis the 30D as a friend had abysmal results focus-wise with his 30D over the week-end trying to capture Red Kites and he is coming over tonight in the hope that I can throw some more light on the subject. Size and speed of flight-wise they should have proved relatively easy in comparison to Swifts and Swallows.

Thanks in anticipation.

Adrian

[Roy C]

From the 40D manual : In the AI servo mode "When the AF point selection is automatic (p.78), the camera first uses the centre AF point to focus. During autofocusing, if the subject moves away from the centre AF point, focus tracking continues as long as the subject is covered by another AF point"

On page 78 it explains that if all the AF points are set then it means automatic AF point is in effect.

I am almost certain that this is the same on the 30D and 350D so I would be surprised if it was any different on the 20D

P.S. This confirms what I stated in post #4 of this thread. You must first obtain a lock with the centre AF point when in AI servo mode.

[IanF]

Reading this thread interested me and I was about to ask the question which you appear to have answered here Ian i.e. Does the need to establish focus with the centre point first, also apply to the 20D?

I have looked through the Instruction Book but have not come up with a definitive answer, so pose the question "Is Ian's statement correct"? I hope so as it certainly would make for easier in-flight shots.

Not only that, does anyone know the answer vis-a-vis the 30D as a friend had abysmal results focus-wise with his 30D over the week-end trying to capture Red Kites and he is coming over tonight in the hope that I can throw some more light on the subject. Size and speed of flight-wise they should have proved relatively easy in comparison to Swifts and Swallows.

Thanks in anticipation.

Adrian

According to the 20D manual the focus point selection is phrased the same as for the 40D - no difference.

The main problem I have with all points selected is that when panning if there's anything else at all appears in the viewfinder - whether a cloud, distant bird or object from the ground the focus shifts to that causing more delay. I find all points selected useless for birds in flight.

I almost exclusively use the centre focus point for birds in flight though for smaller birds if the path is predictable - say left to right - as it was this morning (in less than ideal lighting conditions) for a displaying Sedge Warbler using the smaller bottom left point gave more consistent results for being in the centre of the frame.

Using the centre focus point it is far easiesr to maintain focus when tracking a fast moving bird against a background such as the Kestrel also from this morning. Having just made a kill it took off flying away at speed past a line of trees.

[Roy C]

Here is a Swallow I took last year with the 30D (heavy crop so not that good). AI servo and all focus points enabled. What is interesting is that this bird was on the edge of the frame and at the time of the shot none of the focus points were over the bird.
Although I sometimes use all focus points for this type of shot, I try to keep the bird over the centre point - if you lose it and manage to catch it on one of the outer points then its a bonus.

[GYRob]

Sorry Roy I meant `One Shot`.As soon as I hear the beep I shoot a burst of shots.Using a smaller aperture (f8)ensures some depth of field for more chance of a sharp shot.

to be honest i carnt see how this can work unless your using a wideangle lens.
Rob.

[stu78]

Rob, can you explain why that would not work? I freely admit that I know very little about aperture and DOF, but from my limited understanding what Mike said is logical isn't it?

[GYRob]

Rob, can you explain why that would not work? I freely admit that I know very little about aperture and DOF, but from my limited understanding what Mike said is logical isn't it?

on 1 shot the camera will focus on a given distance and even on BIF it will BEEP to say it has got focus but by the time you take the shot the bird has moved yet your focus is fixed at the time you heared the BEEP
SO if you take a burst of shots the BIF is many feet from were the focus is Locked so Not in focus.
For most BIF shots you use a long lens so DOF is tiny and will not cover the distance the bird has flown from the time you heared the Beep and pressed the shutter
if your doing a burst of say 10 shots on something like a flying duck at say 5FPS the duck will be 100ft away from were you have locked the focus DOF wont cover that.
Eddit
you can get shots this way moreso if the bird is flying in front of you from left to right and you get the BEEP as its almost in front of you THEN a burst can work and even DOF could cover it as its distance away from you does not change so much ?
Rob.

[JohnZ]

Well I have been out again and decided to choose some slightly, but not much, slower subjects. Sandwich Terns.
Much better success rate.
Thank you Roy as the penny has finally dropped. I, foolishly, thought, don`t know why mind you that as long as you covered the bird with one of the focus points that it would be in focus. Must be old age !

[stu78]

.As soon as I hear the beep I shoot a burst of shots.Using a smaller aperture (f8)ensures some depth of field for more chance of a sharp shot.

Sorry Rob, I thought you were disagreeing with Mike's second sentence about using f8 to get a sharper BIF shot.
I agree with your last comment and I only ever use AI servo for flight shots as I find one shot mode useless unless the bird is very far away.

[mike from ebbw]

to be honest i carnt see how this can work unless your using a wideangle lens.
Rob.

When I talk of a burst of shots I mean three and as it isnt A1 servo it wont track the subject.I just get more success on one shot.This is just my personal preference that works for me.
As for depth of field providing the bird isnt literally on top of you (which would make it impossible to fit in the frame) I find that f8 is more than enough to get the whole bird in focus.

The Peregrine was taken with my Sigma 500mm 7.2 prime wide open as was the Red Kite.All focus points activated one shot focus mode.
The BH Gull was taken with my Sigma 135-400mm @200mm f8 centre focus point activated only,one shot AF mode.

[GYRob]

i know it can work Mike, if im in 1 shot shooting a ground bird and a bird sudenly apears in flight i will have a go at it Pumping the shutter .
I was thinking you ment a burst of 10/20 shots .
Love that Red Kite shot thats a cracker.
Rob.

[Roy C]

Well I have been out again and decided to choose some slightly, but not much, slower subjects. Sandwich Terns.
Much better success rate.
Thank you Roy as the penny has finally dropped. I, foolishly, thought, don`t know why mind you that as long as you covered the bird with one of the focus points that it would be in focus. Must be old age !
Looks like you have cracked it John - couple of very nice captures.

[midlandbirder]

After trying different techniques, i have found that i personally get better results using AI servo and using only the centre focus point.

I did try using all focus points, but as soon as the subject went in front of some trees or a hedgerow the camera automatically focused on them instead of the bird. Maybe i would have had more luck trying all focus points on one shot mode?

As mentioned by others it seems easier if the bird has a predictable flight path, as was the case with the Hobby below.

It was always perching in the same tree and every time would fly out to the left before hawking, and then flying back to the same tree.

The pic was taken using AI servo with centre focus point, iso 400, f7.1 , 1/2000 sec and exp +0.3

[JohnZ]

Thank you Roy. Getting there I think. Only used the centre point for these shots though. Bit of good fortune methinks.
Don`t know what your name is but that is a very nice piccie of the Hobby.

[Roy C]

I did try using all focus points, but as soon as the subject went in front of some trees or a hedgerow the camera automatically focused on them instead of the bird.

This is the problem with using all focus points, I only switch them all on when the bird is high in the sky with a clear background. If there is any danger of a bird flying in front of trees..... then I will only use the centre focus point (which is most of the time).

[mike from ebbw]

This is the problem with using all focus points, I only switch them all on when the bird is high in the sky with a clear background. If there is any danger of a bird flying in front of trees..... then I will only use the centre focus point (which is most of the time).

This is why my Gull shot was taken with the centre AF point only.

[wings]

[
I use AI Servo with just the centre focus point selected. Provided the Swifts are moving more or less across the field of view rather than to or from your position then once acquired focus is mostly maintained. Using the 400mm f5,6 you can leave it wide open to maximise shutter speed.
___

Still a tough act to follow: those flying torpedoes are near impossible to photograph unless you have a good L lens with IS, a Wimberley Sidekick and lots of luck.

[Boy George]

According to the 20D manual the focus point selection is phrased the same as for the 40D - no different.

Thanks for your quick reply Ian. I have now found the section in the book which confirms this to be the case - what a bummer, methinks! Thought we might have been onto something there.

Re my friend's problem with the Red Kites - for starters (but somewhat irrelevant) he has the 350D not a 30D but regardless, there seems to be an intermittant focusing fault with his 100 - 400 IS Zoom which also showed itself on my 20D body. He will get it checked out.

Adrian

[Nikon Kid]

Reading through the thread has helped me alot for my next trip out.
I am using a 450d with 70-300 lens. To take the best pics of a bird in flight
what would be my optimum settings.

I am new to DSLR so any help for next time out would be a big bonus.

Thanks

[IanF]

Reading through the thread has helped me alot for my next trip out.
I am using a 450d with 70-300 lens. To take the best pics of a bird in flight
what would be my optimum settings.

I am new to DSLR so any help for next time out would be a big bonus.

Thanks

Aperture priority, ISO400, centre focus point, AI servo with as near as you can get to spot metering. With sunlit birds against a clear blue sky for Swifts being very dark coloured against a bright sky I use EV+1.0 and for Swallows at most EV +0.3. For light coloured ones like Terns EV -0.3 or even -0.6.

Using the lens at around the 300mm end and aperture f8 may help as long as you're getting around 1/1000 shutter speed or better.

Choosing the location though is just as important.

[Nikon Kid]

Thanks Ian

I will try and put most of this into action to-morrow

I can see another lens on the horizon a 400, well I will see
how I get on with 300 1st, nice learning curve.

I also found a good site for birds in flight,
Beauty of the Wild.

[JohnZ]

Very nice piccies Roy. I am still trying to come to grips with this. I have put off my plans for the "All focus points" for the time being as you have to focus on the centre point only it seems a bit pointless.
Oops sorry Ian !

[Nikon Kid]

I went out this morning to try out the technique discussed here.
Well it is hard following these birds in flight, and I am using a
300 not 400, and I am not close enough maybe thats why I need a 400 ?

Here a few pics, they have been cropped a fair amount. (not the Swan, not in flight)
They were the best from 100 or so shots

[mike from ebbw]

Thats a very good start Terry.It does take some getting used to and you will be better off with the 300mm for now as you can sometimes be too close (chopped off wings/heads etc).As with everything practice makes perfect.What I sometimes do is take a loaf of bread to my local lake and feed the Gulls.This makes great practice and a well exposed Gull shot is hard to beat IMO.Keep trying and good luck.

[Nikon Kid]

I went to Woodwalton Fen this afternoon got me a Female Marsh Harrier.
It was a least 600yds away did a lot of cropping, I mean a lot of cropping.
But I am very impressed with Canon and its software cant wait to get
those close up shots in the future, well its all a learning curve.

And Thanks for all the help here

Heres some pics

[IanF]

You've got off to a great start. Using the 300mm will be both easier and harder. Being shorter reach you'll have a wider field to keep the birds in the frame but they'll be smaller with less area to keep the focus point over. Mike's right though with a 400mm the birds are often difficult to track when they're fairly close - great for filling the frame but with the field of view being so narrow you really have to have a feel for their flight characteristics as to which direction they're heading.

Maybe not much to you where you're situated but somewhere like Bempton Cliffs is ideal to practice flight captures as usually the light is rptty good, the background plain and the birds often at eye level at varying distances but with predictable flight paths.

[Nikon Kid]

Thanks Ian
I will try and get down to the Ouse Washes this weekend, to get a better
shot of the Harriers, lots of shallows there as well, anything that moves.

Here's a Carrion Crow from my Garden getting better.

I processed this crow again is it any better ?

also heres a BlkhdGull fight....

also House martin,,, Silly boy I deleted some good swallow pics off the camera

BTW anyone have tips on processing the image, basically I Have been moving
the cursors up and down until I think its pleasing to the eye...

[mike from ebbw]

As you can see from your Crow shot you have captured a sillouette.When shooting dark birds against the sky you need to overexpose a bit as the cameras meter is exposing for the sky as well as the bird.I overexpose up to about 1 stop depending on the light but gets easier in bright or sunlit conditions.The other two shots are spot on though!

[mike from ebbw]

This was taken in real dark conditions and needed to be overexposed by 1 stop and brightened in Photoshop to get to this.

[Martin Thomas]

<snip>

BTW anyone have tips on processing the image, basically I Have been moving
the cursors up and down until I think its pleasing to the eye...

Depends on your imaging software but if you're using PhotoShop or PhotoShop Elements I'd suggest you look at the free video tutorials here (http://www.photoanswers.co.uk/Video-Tutorials/Search-Results/?N=509+530). Start with the ones on levels and adjustment layers and progress from there.

Are you shooting in RAW with your 40D? If so then make all the preliminary changes to exposure, white balance, colour etc required then finish off with sharpening etc if required.

[Nikon Kid]

Thanks for the comments I need them to learn quicker.

My camera is the 450d all shot with Canon 300mm lens.
I am using RAW file and my software is Digital Photo Professional
that came with the Camera.

What I am doing is making all the changes in RAW crop & process, what
ever I think improves the image, its a black art I suppose just experience.

The other thing I have notice that reading the forum, that the 400mm lens
is sharper than the 300mm, or am I getting it wrong make for make.