Found Kestrel with broken wing

[baccalynnwv]

Hello,

I found a male American kestrel with a broken wing. He is very active. I've left two messages with the rehabilitation centers listed online in West Virginia but have not received any calls back yet. I'm leaving for vacation tomorrow for two weeks and will be working during the day so I'm not sure how I am going to get the bird to the center. I have a friend who might be able to transport it.

At any rate, if I have to keep this bird over night, what care should I give it?? I'm sure it will live. It's climbing all over the make shift cage I have it in right now and was running all over the yard a while ago.

When he was a bit calmer I fed him some water through a small syringe. I had two pairs of garden gloves on which he quickly put a death grip on.

Thanks,

Becca

[KnockerNorton]

That wing is much too badly damaged to ever be repaired. It's a very bad injury to the carpal joint, the equivalent of having your wrist torn out and twisted round and hoping it will ever be the same again. I'm afraid that euthanasia is the only practical option. Take it to any vet and ask them to do it for you, or do it yourself if you can (bird in bag, whack bag lots with baseball bat - crude but quick and kind). It really has no chance, and any rehabber will simply do it as soon as you leave. In the meantime, it's suffering all the time you have in that box.

[danehower]

That wing is much too badly damaged to ever be repaired. It's a very bad injury to the carpal joint, the equivalent of having your wrist torn out and twisted round and hoping it will ever be the same again. I'm afraid that euthanasia is the only practical option. Take it to any vet and ask them to do it for you, or do it yourself if you can (bird in bag, whack bag lots with baseball bat - crude but quick and kind). It really has no chance, and any rehabber will simply do it as soon as you leave. In the meantime, it's suffering all the time you have in that box.

You have got to be kidding ! I have seen birds with only one wing in nature centers - perhaps this bird could be cared for and used for teaching at such a place. Also, are you so sure of your diagnosis based on a photo ? I wouldn't want you as my doctor that is for sure !:C

[baccalynnwv]

I put a small narrow box in the cage with him. I also put in two trips worth of worms in a little bowl. He came out to eat them very quickly. I found online that they eat worms. Hopefully I didn't just doom him. LOL... He is VERY active and is climbing all over the cage. I am going to get him to a rehab center anyway. Just to let someone with more experience than I check him out.

These are the only two places I can find online.. and have left messages at both places.

http://www.tracwv.org/

http://www.wvrrc.org/

He actually looks like he has his wing in a more comfortable position now. Standing up right and very alert. I hope he makes it and they can use him for training and education.. or at least give him a comfortable life.

[baccalynnwv]

Here he is now.. a couple hours later. He's standing right over the bowl I had the worms in. I hope he goes back into the box for the night.

I hate that I have a wild animal in a cage...:-C The cage is disgusting too. Its just been sitting outside at a friends house for years. Thankfully my daughter (2 years old) fell asleep right after she got home today and my son (4 years old) is more interested in the Nintendo DS. LOL.. Other than the house wrens on the porch barking at him, he's had a lot of peace.

[KnockerNorton]

You have got to be kidding ! I have seen birds with only one wing in nature centers - perhaps this bird could be cared for and used for teaching at such a place. Also, are you so sure of your diagnosis based on a photo ? I wouldn't want you as my doctor that is for sure !:C

Can you SEE the wing in that photo? It's completely out of orientation, it's upside down. the radius, ulna and carpals are clearly totally shot. Wings do not bend that way! I have seen enough broken wings to know a hopeless case - only simple fractures can mend enough to give good flight.

The bird is a wild animal. It will be petrified, it will not become tame. Do you think it's fair to make it spend the rest of its life in a cage with one wing? It will not even be able to get from one perch to another, eg to reach food, so quality of life will be zero. it really is much kinder to end its suffering, as you would a dog with a broken back. Every minute in that box is another minute of fear and stress that there is no chance of ending in a pleasant way.

[a.dancy]

Hope all goes well.

[danehower]

Can you SEE the wing in that photo? It's completely out of orientation, it's upside down. the radius, ulna and carpals are clearly totally shot. Wings do not bend that way! I have seen enough broken wings to know a hopeless case - only simple fractures can mend enough to give good flight.

The bird is a wild animal. It will be petrified, it will not become tame. Do you think it's fair to make it spend the rest of its life in a cage with one wing? It will not even be able to get from one perch to another, eg to reach food, so quality of life will be zero. it really is much kinder to end its suffering, as you would a dog with a broken back. Every minute in that box is another minute of fear and stress that there is no chance of ending in a pleasant way.

Point taken. I apologize for my prior post , perhaps I over reacted a bit. However wouldn't it be more pertinent for baccalynnvw to wait it out until an expert with hands on observation of the bird make the call ?

ps -KnockerNorton, I am sure you have the birds best interest in mind and I apologize if I offended.

[baccalynnwv]

I have received a call from the Three Rivers place. We are trying to arrange for transport now. They are 2 or 3 hours away from me.

ETA: She says they don't eat worms... whoops...

ETA again: I am going to meet a man at 10:30 tomorrow morning at a location about 25 minutes away..

[Dave B Smith]

Well done finding help. Hope your new friend does well and that you have a good vacation.

[deborah4]

I'm afraid that euthanasia is the only practical option. Take it to any vet and ask them to do it for you, or do it yourself if you can (bird in bag, whack bag lots with baseball bat - crude but quick and kind). It really has no chance, and any rehabber will simply do it as soon as you leave. In the meantime, it's suffering all the time you have in that box.

The advice both on BF and RSPCA is to put injured birds into a quiet place in a container and seek professional help ASAP

IMO members should follow those guidelines not advise people to bludgeon Birds of Prey to death if they are injured - especially not giving an unprofessional diagnosis about it's prognosis based on one photo over the internet.

Hope the Kestrel finds the professional care it needs and is dispatched humanely by a qualified vet if it's absolutely necessary.

[KnockerNorton]

The advice both on BF and RSPCA is to put injured birds into a quiet place in a container and seek professional help ASAP

IMO members should follow those guidelines not advise people to bludgeon Birds of Prey to death if they are injured - especially not giving an unprofessional diagnosis about it's prognosis based on one photo over the internet.

Hope the Kestrel finds the professional care it needs and is dispatched humanely by a qualified vet if it's absolutely necessary.

How do you know it isn't 'professional' or 'expert' advice? You have no idea what my job is. The OP wasn't getting any response from rehabbers and was asking for practical advice, as it looked like they were going to be stuck with a bird with an OBVIOUSLY (just look at it, for crying out loud!) crippling injury. My advice was intended for the best interests of the bird and OP, not tip-toeing around the facts like this was an episode of House.

[baccalynnwv]

Well, he was delivered to the transporter alive. Hopefully they can either help him or put him down peacefully. He was still standing and walking when I took him but he was no where near as active as he was yesterday.

[deborah4]

How do you know it isn't 'professional' or 'expert' advice?

because the 'professional and expert' advice with regard to injured birds is to take them to a vet/rehab ASAP not advise members, anonomously, on an internet forum to take matters into their own hands and kill birds they find injured.

Well done baccalyn for doing the best you could and getting it expert help ... it's in the best hands whatever the outcome.

[KnockerNorton]

because the 'professional and expert' advice with regard to injured birds is to take them to a vet/rehab ASAP not advise members, anonomously, on an internet forum to take matters into their own hands and kill birds they find injured.

Well done baccalyn for doing the best you could and getting it expert help ... it's in the best hands whatever the outcome.

If your child fell over and hurt itself, would you apply first aid or sit there waiting for a 'professional' to come and give it a painkiller and an elastoplast? "Taking matters into their own hands" is exactly what people do when they pick up a bird (a gull chick for example), feed it, put in a box etc etc etc. Deciding that euthanasia is the best option is another decision that can be made - you do not necessarily need 7 yrs at vet school to know when an animal has no chance and is suffering. There is nothing 'wrong' in deciding that ending suffering is the best option.

Such 'professionals' in wild bird care are rather few and far between. Many vets won't even look at them, and RSPCA can be worse than useless (often totally unskilled in wild birds). 'Expert' is more applicable, as many more people have 'expertise' through experience, or it may form part of their job in one way or another. Don't be so quick to judge others' advice, and assume that your advice is somehow more 'expert' and informed. For all you know, I may have decades of experience of treating, keeping and diagnosing problems in wild birds, and may even get paid for it. Les Stocker never went to vet school or worked for RSPCA, y'know, and 'rehabbers' don't have degrees in the field.

Well done baccalyn for doing what you could. My advice was on a 'if you feel you can' basis, and no disrespect to you.

[deborah4]

If your child fell over and hurt itself, would you apply first aid or sit there waiting for a 'professional' to come and give it a painkiller and an elastoplast?

Absolutely - I wouldn't bash it's brains out though if the ambulance was slow to arrive which is what you were advocating.

There was no reason to think from the posts re. this Kestrel, it was either in it's final death throws or writhing around in agony - it was eating and moving around in the container.

Anyway not going to argue this any more - We will simply beg to differ as to what the best course of action is if someone comes on here asking for help for a bird of prey with an injured wing.

Of course, if I found an animal or bird with it's guts half out and rear end squashed as a result of a car accident and consequently screaming in agony, I'd wish I'd have a gun or hyperdermic at least to hand but would certainly dispatch it as quickly and humanely as possible.

[KnockerNorton]

Absolutely - I wouldn't bash it's brains out though if the ambulance was slow to arrive which is what you were advocating.

There was no reason to think from the posts re. this Kestrel, it was either in it's final death throws or writhing around in agony - it was eating and moving around in the container.

Anyway not going to argue this any more - We will simply beg to differ as to what the best course of action is if someone comes on here asking for help for a bird of prey with an injured wing.

Of course, if I found an animal or bird with it's guts half out and rear end squashed as a result of a car accident and consequently screaming in agony, I'd wish I'd have a gun or hyperdermic at least to hand but would certainly dispatch it as quickly and humanely as possible.

Deborah, you show your inexperience of the topic here - what do final death throws and agony look like in a bird? Do you actually know? Distressed and suffering birds are usually quiet and still. It is the ones making all the noise and bouncing around like a maniac that are in the best shape. Birds can generally only be caught once they are very far down the line, as they hide minor stress/injury well (so as not to look like an easy target). If you know much about bird anatomy and how broken wings repair, then you could see by one look at that pic that the wing has had it. There HAVE to be major breaks and joint/ligament damage for it to be in that position. It's like seeing a human leg on backwards. Such injuries cannot be repaired, as the joints never regain total function and the nerves/ligaments are broken. Once one realises that, then there will only be one outcome. And it is better for the bird that that outcome comes sooner rather than later - that is the most humane thing, as a cooped-up wild bird in close proximity to people looming over it is under immense stress and fear (we can measure this with hormone levels). What pain it feels is genuinely hard to know (judging from ourselves, it would be horrific), so the stress is the main humane issue. And how that final outcome is reached is a matter of choice. I was offering a solution that would be quick for the bird and the least distressing for the finder - pulling a birds neck or drowning it is too close-quarters for most people. Having it for 2 days til someone injects it is unacceptable in terms of suffering to my view.

You do not need to be a trained vet to know all this. It is largely common sense, O level biology and basic humanity. Killing a bird is a last resort, but by the time most casualities are found, that is the only option left in terms of future suffering. Experienced people can tell when this is necessary without it having "it's guts half out and rear end squashed as a result of a car accident". If one takes on advice from some posts on here rather than knee-jerk argue against them from a position of relative ignorance, then they may actually learn something and know how to respond in the most humane way if they were in a similar position.

[deborah4]

Deborah, you show your inexperience of the topic here - .

gosh are you really as objectionable in real life ''Poecile'', ''Knockernorton'' or whatever your name is, as you come across on the internet? And I'm not just referring to this thread.

My ''inexperience'' as you put it, follows guidelines by the RSPB, RSPCA and BF - none of them advise bludgeoning a bird to death rather than taking it for proper help. The only one giving advice to the contrary of accepted standards is yourself. It would have been far more responsible to PM the OP with such an opinion rather than openly advocate killing the bird on an open forum, if that's what you believe.

If you find an injured bird, put in in a box and contact the nearest vet/rehab etc
as for the rest of the diatribe above .... I really can't be bothered.

The original poster did the right thing. Case closed

[KnockerNorton]

gosh are you really as objectionable in real life ''Poecile'', ''Knockernorton'' or whatever your name is, as you come across on the internet? And I'm not just referring to this thread.

My ''inexperience'' as you put it, follows guidelines by the RSPB, RSPCA and BF - none of them advise bludgeoning a bird to death rather than taking it for proper help. The only one giving advice to the contrary of accepted standards of what is regarded as expert advice is yourself.

If you find an injured bird, put in in a box and contact the nearest vet/rehab etc
as for the rest of the diatribe above .... I really can't be bothered.

The original poster did the right thing. Case closed

I apologise if the facts gets in the way of your sentiments, but the RSPB is not a welfare organisation (and has nothing to do with injured birds), the RSPCA has very few trained wildlife/bird staff, and Birdforum is a web forum not a vet practice. It is clearly better to get a bird to someone who knows what to do, but often this is very difficult/impossible, and the time taken can be unnecessarily cruel to the bird. In those frequent cases, it is helpful to have a clue as to what to do.

Seeing as you are unable to define a 'proper' rehabber, I'll inform you: it is anyone who calls themself a rehabber. No training necessary. There are no 'accepted standards' as there is no 'authority'. There is no 'rehabber school' to accredit people. It is anyone who decides to take in casualties. I've taken in and handled many. Does that count? I'm guessing that you've treated zero yourself.

Unless you have ever been involved with treating broken wings (rather than taking a bird in a box to someone else), then i don't think you are really in a position to condemn the advice of others with experience in the matter.

I'd be interested to know your advice on how to euthanase a bird when a vet is not available and you actually have to make a decision for yourself?

[danehower]

The original poster did the right thing. Case closed

Agree !! :t:

[KnockerNorton]

Agree !! :t:

In the circumstances, probably, but what if the rehabber didn't call back, and nobody else wanted to know........what do you do??? At the time of asking, they were left with a crippled bird and no fallback.

[deborah4]

I apologise if the facts gets in the way of your sentiments, but the RSPB is not a welfare organisation (and has nothing to do with injured birds), the RSPCA has very few trained wildlife/bird staff, and Birdforum is a web forum not a vet practice.

Well you seem to be living up to a reputation of twisting what people say.

The advice of the RSPB is to contact the RSPCA or the nearest vet. The advice of the RSPCA is to put the bird in a box and wait for a call back - they do call back but they are undermanned and desparately busy this time of year, so it could be several hours, the same goes for American bird rescue centres/vets I imagine. The advice of BF is to a combination of all of the above.

There was no reason to think the Kestrel was in an immediately life threatening situation. On the contrary, he was being cared for until proper help arrived. Which it did fortunately.

If anyone is giving advice contrary to the above, they should do it via PM, making it clear they do not agree with any of the above guidelines. Telling people to batter to death with a baseball bat a bird of prey with a broken wing was irresponsible when it was not in an immediate life threatening situation.

Sadly, the decision may be euthanasia by injection but that's much more humane and far less violent - as for 'wild birds' not being able to fly - many birds are kept in relative comfort and prove very valuable for education purposes despite not ever going back to the wild. Well that's a moral position whether one agrees with that or not, not a medical one.

[KnockerNorton]

Well you seem to be living up to a reputation of twisting what people say.

The advice of the RSPB is to contact the RSPCA or the nearest vet. The advice of the RSPCA is to put the bird in a box and wait for a call back - they do call back but they are undermanned and desparately busy this time of year, so it could be several hours, the same goes for American bird rescue centres/vets I imagine. The advice of BF is to a combination of all of the above.

There was no reason to think the Kestrel was in an immediately life threatening situation. On the contrary, he was being cared for until proper help arrived. Which it did fortunately.

If anyone is giving advice contrary to the above, they should do it via PM, making it clear they do not agree with any of the above guidelines. Telling people to batter to death with a baseball bat a bird of prey with a broken wing was irresponsible when it was not in an immediate life threatening situation.

Sadly, the decision may be euthanasia by injection but that's much more humane and far less violent - as for 'wild birds' not being able to fly - many birds are kept in relative comfort and prove very valuable for education purposes despite not ever going back to the wild. Well that's a moral position whether one agrees with that or not, not a medical one.

Deborah, the standard RSPCA officer is no better equipped to deal with a broken wing than you or I, as they are not trained either. There are countless anecdotes of RSPCA officers not even being able to identify the species' feeding requirements. Only the specialised wildlife centres know what to do, and there are very few of them. Most vets will not take in wild birds, and many will not pay for it.

Again, I'm sorry to say, you show a complete lack of experience about what a lost wing means to a bird of prey, or how to assess an injured bird and its chances and take appropriate action. I can only assume that you've never dealt with this kind of thing yourself before, which rather makes you a poor person to offer advice. You appear to put your own squeamishness over the welfare of the bird.

Again, if you have a better method of euthanasia for a person stuck with a crippled bird with no chance of recovery, that is as quick for the bird and least unpleasant for the despatcher as possible, then I'm sure it would be useful for us all to read. Is an injection 3 days (10 days, 20 days?) later better than a very quick violent death straight away? Maybe to you, but it is technically illegal due to undue suffering.

Anyway, as pleasant as it is to read your flirtatious posts, I'll bow out of this.

[deborah4]

Again, I'm sorry to say, you show a complete lack of experience about what a lost wing means to a bird of prey, or how to assess an injured bird and its chances and take appropriate action.

The majority of people do not know how to assess an injured bird and as such need a QUALIFIED opinion/take the bird to a rescue centre. I will say this once and for all - I have simply repeated the advice we give to all members who find an injured bird:

The advice for ALL INJURED BIRDS is to contact a Vet/RSPCA or the nearest REHAB centre - Show me any response from any of the above, including where it says in the BIRDFORUM guidelines, that people are advised not to do this but dispatch the bird by putting in a bag and bashing it to death with a baseball bat? Whether you personally think it's wrong to keep a bird alive who will not be able to be released back into the wild is a separate issue, I've made no comment on that.

This is an internet Forum - if people come on here asking for advise, that's what I and most members, the moderators etc say.

You have no right to accuse me of being ignorant of what it means to a bird of prey to have a life in captivity with only one wing this was NOT the issue here and I've made no comment on that. Thread was calling for help to look after a bird until the OP received a response from the rehabbers she'd left a message with - she'd already decided to either take the bird herself or ask a friend to - the original poster had already contacted a rehab and was looking for some help with the bird in the interim period. You telling her to club it with a baseball bat was out of order in the circumstances and contrary to all the guidelines in place.

oh .. and I certainly wouldn't kill a bird of prey on the basis on someone saying I should in an anonomous post on an internet forum having looked at one still photograph as I hope no one ever will.

[KnockerNorton]

your faith in the far-reaching wisdom of the people who maintain a chat website is touching - I never knew vets had such an online remit or that BF was such a powerhouse in the field of animal care. But please tell me where I can get one of these 'qualifications' in order to have an opinion on what to do with an injured bird?

And I'm still waiting for your advice on how to euthanase a bird when no help is available....

[Clive Watson]

Sounds like a recent injury, otherwise it would have starved to death. In that respect he's been lucky you came along when you did. I'm guessing that this reply is too late now but in case you still have him I'll give it a go. In the UK at least you can buy frozen mice or chicks from some pet shops, I think for people who keep snakes mainly. You could give them a go. I'm not an expert in any way with this sort of thing though so someone else might be able to help more. I'm not sure he'll ever be able to go back into the wild again, that's a pretty serious injury.

[pygmy falcon]

I've been a vet tech for 9 years. I worked in an educational program with raptors for 4 years. I'm also a falconer. This is my background, so I have experience here.

How can you tell the bird wasn't in "agony?" Well, it was eating. Birds that are overly stressed, in pain, what have you, don't eat.

In the educational setting I worked in, we had several birds with parts of, or the whole wing missing. They were great ambassadors of getting across the message of environmental literacy. This Kestrel did not need to be "put in a bag and then beat with a bat several times." I thought this was a joke when I first read it, but you were serious about it.

Here in the US, you can't just be a rehabber on a whim. Most places that rehab birds, aren't even allowed to rehab raptors. The ones that are able to know their stuff. They still have to be state and federally licensed to do so...It's not just a hobby someone picks up. Also in the US, it is against the law to kill a raptor, or any other migratory bird, for that matter. You did give some good advice, to take the kestrel into a vet, but the latter part was ridiculous. If the bird were in extreme pain, and with no doubt needed to be dispatched, there are other ways to euthanize that are much more humane than the way you offered. This is a living animal, not a chicken breast that needs to be tenderized.

From the looks of the pictures, the kestrel was not in a great deal of distress. It was not panting, it's eyes are open and clear. A falcon in distress would not look like this.

I commend the person who took care of this little raptor. You got him into the right hands, and whatever his outcome, at least he didn't end up in the bottom of a bag getting the life beat out of him.

[KnockerNorton]

How can you tell the bird wasn't in "agony?" Well, it was eating. Birds that are overly stressed, in pain, what have you, don't eat.

it is impossible to know the pain felt - there is no good measure and we're not sure how birds perceive pain. They often don't appear to react to pain in the same way mammals do, but we don't know what their perception of pain is. It is probably prudent to suspect that a bird with an inverted wing in a confined space near people is in quite a bit of distress, however.

there are other ways to euthanize that are much more humane than the way you offered. This is a living animal, not a chicken breast that needs to be tenderized.

can you tell us what they are? yes, there are 'cleaner' ways, but i was also thinking about the person who would have to do it. How it dies it essentially irrelevant, as long as it's very quick. So if we can minimise distress for whoever has to do it, so much the better. Hence the suggestion of the bag (out of sight, to some extent). No, I don't kill birds in that way, but for someone (and a bird) in a tricky position, it's not an unreasonable suggestion.

I have a UK Home Office licence for procedures on wild birds, so I've got a bit of experience too. At the time of asking, the finder was stuck with an injured bird and didn't know if help would be forthcoming. That could have gone on for days and days. There may well be compound fracture, meaning infection setting in too. My advice was aimed at a solution for them, should they be stuck.

I'm genuinely interested to know what would your advice would be, if the rehabber never got back to them and they couldn't get it to a vet.

[pygmy falcon]

it is impossible to know the pain felt - there is no good measure and we're not sure how birds perceive pain. They often don't appear to react to pain in the same way mammals do, but we don't know what their perception of pain is. It is probably prudent to suspect that a bird with an inverted wing in a confined space near people is in quite a bit of distress, however.



can you tell us what they are? yes, there are 'cleaner' ways, but i was also thinking about the person who would have to do it. How it dies it essentially irrelevant, as long as it's very quick. So if we can minimise distress for whoever has to do it, so much the better. Hence the suggestion of the bag (out of sight, to some extent). No, I don't kill birds in that way, but for someone (and a bird) in a tricky position, it's not an unreasonable suggestion.

I have a UK Home Office licence for procedures on wild birds, so I've got a bit of experience too. At the time of asking, the finder was stuck with an injured bird and didn't know if help would be forthcoming. That could have gone on for days and days. There may well be compound fracture, meaning infection setting in too. My advice was aimed at a solution for them, should they be stuck.

I'm genuinely interested to know what would your advice would be, if the rehabber never got back to them and they couldn't get it to a vet.


This is starting to be a ridiculous thread. You clearly cannot take information/advice from other people without becoming defensive. I am not here to give advice on how to HUMANELY euthanize an animal, but I can tell you, if it were me, I would prefer CO2 to being bludgeoned to death. And also, from having worked with dozens of raptors in my life, and also just being a vet tech for almost a decade, that you can learn behavior pretty easily. You can tell when something is uncomfortable and in pain. Animals are pretty stoic, but only to a point.

My point here is not to argue with you, but to ask you to not give the advice of putting an animal in a bag and beating it. Even if you can't physically get to a vet, they can at least give you advice on how to humanely euthanize. Not one vet would EVER say to do it the way that you advised.

[KnockerNorton]

I dont want to argue with you either - so I'll just stick to the one practical point that you aren't answering but may be of some use to anyone reading (and I'm interested to know your opinion, and Deborah's), and which you both take issue with:

In a situation when you cannot get 'professional/experienced' help, how do you advise killing a bird to limit suffering, both for the bird and despatcher? Gassing is rather slow and is likely to be ineffective in a domestic situation (who has a cylinder of CO2 handy, and an airtight unit or head mask?). So, without specialist equipment (injections, gassing), how would you recommend killing a bird quickly and humanely, assuming it's the only reasonable course of action and that sometimes it is necessary? Breaking the neck is the traditional way, but requires skill and is distressing for the person doing it. Compressing the ribs/scapulars is a technical way but requires a bit of knowledge and a small bird, and is also a bit 'hands on'. That leaves few options apart from whacking on the head, as far as i can see. Yes, it's brutal, but it's also very quick and unlikely to be painful/stressful, and the humanity lies in he quickness. It can be distressing for anyone doing it though, as you don't want to do it by halves. So it will be a bit messy. Hence the bag. The bird will be in the dark, and therefore less stressed, and the person doesn;t have to see the end result.

So I ask again, what method would you suggest to an inexperienced and possibly squeamish person? And please bear in mind that we are all on the same side here.

[Apodemus]

A whack on the head is quick and easy to administer. Holding the body in one hand around the wingtips and legs to stop it struggling, and swinging it in a big arc like a hammer blow so that its head hits a rock or fence post at high speed is quick, highly effective and humane.

[KnockerNorton]

A whack on the head is quick and easy to administer. Holding the body in one hand around the wingtips and legs to stop it struggling, and swinging it in a big arc like a hammer blow so that its head hits a rock or fence post at high speed is quick, highly effective and humane.

Indded, but best done as hard as you can and a few times in rapid succession makes sure. Can be messy though, and people sometimes don't do it hard enough, which can be distressing.

[pygmy falcon]

Forgive me if I'm the only one that thinks it is WILDLY inappropriate to be discussing ways to euthanize wildlife on a PUBLIC forum! There are many things one can do before opting to self euthanize an animal. You can call a vet, you can call a rehabber, you can even call a rehabber NOT in your area just to get advice. Any of those people are much more qualified than you to give advice. If those PROFESSIONALS deem it necessary for immediate euthanasia, then they can give advice on proper procedure. It is not appropriate forum conversation to be discussing this.

I broke my arm once, but my boyfriend didn't blindfold me and bludgeon me to death...

[KnockerNorton]

Forgive me if I'm the only one that thinks it is WILDLY inappropriate to be discussing ways to euthanize wildlife on a PUBLIC forum! There are many things one can do before opting to self euthanize an animal. You can call a vet, you can call a rehabber, you can even call a rehabber NOT in your area just to get advice. Any of those people are much more qualified than you to give advice. If those PROFESSIONALS deem it necessary for immediate euthanasia, then they can give advice on proper procedure. It is not appropriate forum conversation to be discussing this.

I broke my arm once, but my boyfriend didn't blindfold me and bludgeon me to death...

what a shame......about the arm, that is.

As a vet tech I thought you may have known that euthanising animals is a big part of the job, to prevent suffering. Same for anyone taking in wild birds - when you pick up a bird you also pick up the responsibility that killing it might be the most appropriate action. Public forum or not, it is not illegal to kill injured birds. If you think it's inappropriate then report it to a moderator, if not then stop trying to censor what people say. Land of the Free and all that.

So, in the absence of a vet or rehabber and specialist equipment, you've got nothing constructive to add about humanely despatching a bird? What if your distant rehabber told you to euthanase it? PM me if you don't want to post your advice on humane despatching - the scenario, remember, is a suffering bird and the only course of action is quick euthanasia with no specialist help or equipment. How would you suggest doing it? I've got a funny feeling you don't know without asking your boss first.

[nickderry]

I think that it IS important to know what to do with a bird that's on its way out/has no chance of full recovery to end its suffering. I'm very squeamish, I can't even kill a fly, but I did once have to kill a GC Grebe that had an old infected wound all down its neck and was almost just a skeleton - it was just lying there thrashing its head around - I wish I'd known what to do because it suffered greatly at my hands as I was trying to do the best for it. When I had to kill a slowworm that had passed under a lawnmower - chopped to ribbons but still alive - a quick bash to the head with a brick finished it off instantly (I on the other hand had a panic attack and was in tears for hours!). So no, this sort of thing is not nice, but life is not always nice. At the end of the day, we all have different ways of 'coping' with the unpleasant situation of dealing with injured animals. Looking at that wing, euthanasia is clearly the only fair option, I appreciate that not everybody will be able to follow this course of action themselves - the OP did the right thing - just as I believe KN would have done the right thing had he been the one to find the bird.

[deborah4]

I've been a vet tech for 9 years. I worked in an educational program with raptors for 4 years. I'm also a falconer. This is my background, so I have experience here.

How can you tell the bird wasn't in "agony?" Well, it was eating. Birds that are overly stressed, in pain, what have you, don't eat.

In the educational setting I worked in, we had several birds with parts of, or the whole wing missing. They were great ambassadors of getting across the message of environmental literacy. This Kestrel did not need to be "put in a bag and then beat with a bat several times." I thought this was a joke when I first read it, but you were serious about it.

Here in the US, you can't just be a rehabber on a whim. Most places that rehab birds, aren't even allowed to rehab raptors. The ones that are able to know their stuff. They still have to be state and federally licensed to do so...It's not just a hobby someone picks up. Also in the US, it is against the law to kill a raptor, or any other migratory bird, for that matter. You did give some good advice, to take the kestrel into a vet, but the latter part was ridiculous. If the bird were in extreme pain, and with no doubt needed to be dispatched, there are other ways to euthanize that are much more humane than the way you offered. This is a living animal, not a chicken breast that needs to be tenderized.

From the looks of the pictures, the kestrel was not in a great deal of distress. It was not panting, it's eyes are open and clear. A falcon in distress would not look like this.

I commend the person who took care of this little raptor. You got him into the right hands, and whatever his outcome, at least he didn't end up in the bottom of a bag getting the life beat out of him.

This just about sums it up.


The original poster did the right thing at the time and sought professional help for the bird regardless of what the final outcome will be. The bird got that help. If it hadn't, the situation may well have been different but that's hyperthetical and as such this thread has been twisted out of all proportion - however, invariably a vet will be at least able to advise over the phone what best to do in that situation and most rural communities have access to farming vets who could euthanise a bird humanely[/I.

As far as disabled birds, (despite my [I]also recognising the seriousness of the wing injury as it happens), I'd do the same as the original poster for any bird that had a chance of a stress free life being looked after by people who cared for it (and I don't mean just physically) than no life at all. When you consider the numbers of birds kept captive anyway in zoos, private homes with no hope of flying, some in appalling conditions, the answer isn't to bludgeon them all to death, it's to try and ensure people are banned from keeping them and that any bird that is captive as a result of injury has the maximum possible conditions to maintain a reasonable decent quality of life - a raptor rehab/education centre can provide this.

This point of view has nothing to do with 'ignorance' or 'lack of experience' or being ''sentimental'', and using comments like this to convince someone else of your point of view is frankly insulting. Whatever our point of view in this particular situation, it's based on personal attitudes to wildlife, life in general and what value we put on individual creatures.

Perhaps we should ask ourselves whether or not we would tell someone to euthanise a friend who, following an accident, is now a paraplegic and condemned to spend the rest of his/her life in a wheelchair, entirely dependent on others for support and unable to do anything for his or her self?
The desire and struggle to live is fundamental and I think anyone who could argue that a wild bird has the mental capacity to be self-aware enough to want to commit suicide because it can't fly is in fairyland and we shouldn't impose the same value judgment in the absence of that fact.

I personally believe there's more to a bird or any animal than it simply being a physical entity that we either deem to satisfy our ideas of what it means to be ''wild'' or fails to meet that expectation through injury despite being healthy in all other respects.

[KnockerNorton]

If it hadn't, the situation may well have been different but that's hyperthetical and as such this thread has been twisted out of all proportion

That's hypothetical, I think you mean, and at the time of posting it wasn't.

and most rural communities have access to farming vets who could euthanise a bird humanely[/I.

for free? Do you think a vet is going to come out to kill a wild bird unless paid, or that many people will want to/be able to pay such a fee?

When you consider the numbers of birds kept captive anyway in zoos, private homes with no hope of flying, some in appalling conditions, the answer isn't to bludgeon them all to death,

who said it was? Again, I'm talking about a situation where no help is available.

This point of view has nothing to do with 'ignorance' or 'lack of experience' or being ''sentimental'', and using comments like this to convince someone else of your point of view is frankly insulting. ,

It has everything to do with it. If you are unaware of various methods, then you are in ignorance of them, and lack experience of them. If you wont use certain methods in certain situations becasue you are squeamish ('bludgeon to death', how about 'injected to death', 'gassed to death'?), or if you think that every wild bird should be maintained in captivity then you are sentimental (ask the RSPCA how many they euthanase a year due to loss of a wing). Even though the word I used was 'sentiments', as in 'feelings/opinions'.

Whatever our point of view in this particular situation, it's based on personal attitudes to wildlife, life in general and what value we put on individual creatures.

which we call 'sentiments'.....

Perhaps we should ask ourselves whether or not we would tell someone to euthanise a friend who, following an accident, is now a paraplegic and condemned to spend the rest of his/her life in a wheelchair, entirely dependent on others for support and unable to do anything for his or her self?

and you deny being sentimental?! If your friend was being 'rescued' by tigers, a scary predator that came to paw at them every few hours, then the terror may make your analogy a bit more realistic. Birds are wild animals, the fact that they don't generally come and sit on your hand is because they think you're going to kill them and they are terrified of you. That doesn't change just because they break a wing.

The desire and struggle to live is fundamental and I think anyone who could argue that a wild bird has the mental capacity to be self-aware enough to want to commit suicide because it can't fly is in fairyland and we shouldn't impose the same value judgment in the absence of that fact.

I personally believe there's more to a bird or any animal than it simply being a physical entity that we either deem to satisfy our ideas of what it means to be ''wild'' or fails to meet that expectation through injury [I]despite being healthy in all other respects.

well that is your philosophy, which i don't share or care about really, as I'm interested in practicalities and welfare - not whether karma is being interrupted by doing the decent thing and putting something out of its suffering.

So it seems that it's the actual killing you don't like the idea of, not the bag and the bat? If you agree that killing is sometimes necessary (can you clarify this?), can you tell me why the bag/bat method is actually inhumane? No, not because you can take it to a vet. Forget vets. Why is it in itself inhumane. Too slow? Too stressful? What? Any more inhumane than being hit by a car?

[Motmot]

The bag/bat option sounds terrifying but it's a good way to kill a very badly hurt bird when you are not used (like most birders) to do these things. You don't see the worst part and the bird usually feels more relaxed, it is not a bad advice but probably too early posted ;) . Some advice on the rehab/vet on first posts and if things turn wrong (no help from them) then the euthanise advice is understandable. Sounds harsh but I insist, doesn't sound a bad advice to my ears.
The rest of the discussion sounds more personal to my ears so I won't comment on that. Just take it easy.

[deborah4]

who said it was? Again, I'm talking about a situation where no help is available.



Well I wasn't ...period

I'm actually getting fed up with your rudeness and deliberate attempts to draw me into some petty and nit picky arguments or attempts to extract answers from me to questions that YOU have demanded need answering on a topic I have not had any intention of discussing relating to some hyperthetical (yes) hyperthetical situation where I might find an injured bird but unable to find a vet or the RSPCA or a Raptor rehabber to help me. You will note that I didn't respond to this now ridiculous thread until the original poster had already mentioned they had contacted a rehabber and was either planning to take the bird to one herself or ask a friend to and was waiting for a call back.

Yes the bird was seriously injured - but yes, with medical attention it could possibly survive.

It's impossible to have a discussion with you Knocker/Facile whatever you call yourself because when a topic isn't taking the direction you want, you start to lob insults at people in a manner that is arrogant, highly patronising and most people find that an extremely confrontational situation and as has been pointed out before elsewhere, is not conducive to pleasant communication.

So why don't you just call it a day with the attitude and give everyone a little peace.

My only concern on this thread has been to ensure people followed accepted guidelines on what to do with an injured bird in the first instance and relating to this situation - as others have pointed you have taken it to another extreme and been rather abusive in the process.

[KnockerNorton]

Well I wasn't ...period

I'm actually getting fed up with your rudeness and deliberate attempts to draw me into some petty and nit picky arguments or attempts to extract answers from me to questions that YOU have demanded need answering on a topic I have not had any intention of discussing relating to some hyperthetical (yes) hyperthetical situation where I might find an injured bird but unable to find a vet or the RSPCA or a Raptor rehabber to help me. You will note that I didn't respond to this now ridiculous thread until the original poster had already mentioned they had contacted a rehabber and was either planning to take the bird to one herself or ask a friend to.

It's impossible to have a discussion with you Knocker/Facile whatever you call yourself because when a topic isn't taking the direction you want, you start to lob insults at people in a manner that is arrogant, highly patronising and based on what, your claimed ''experience'' as an anonomous person on the internet?

So why don't you just call it a day and give everyone a little peace.


Yo do realise the hypocrisy of your arguments on rudeness and lobbing insults don't you? My responses were not intended to be rude, merely defending my own opinions against your own rather personal attacks. Perhaps yopu read them the wrong way. But I'm assuming that deborah4 wasn't the name given to you at birth either... unless you have 3 sisters?

But thankyou for the interestingly pointless discussion in which you managed to argue that my advice on how to euthanase a bird was wrong but then dodged every single specific question as to why it was wrong or what your advice would be if faced with such a situation that demanded it. If you don't wish to get involved in debates on issues, then don't raise those issues and shoot down the practical advice of others from a righteous philosophical standpoint that is of little use to anyone holding a suffering bird.

[KnockerNorton]

My only concern on this thread has been to ensure people followed accepted guidelines on what to do with an injured bird .

Guidelines from whom? There is no authority in this field, certainly not the RSPCA (which kills 90,000 animals a year, some simply because they can't find them a home). There is no law on what to do with an injured wild bird (not in the UK, sorry OP), so people are essentially free to do what they wish and follow whatever guidelines they choose from whatever source they want, as long as it can't be shown to cause unecessary suffering.

[Keith Glasgow]

The bag/bat option sounds terrifying but it's a good way to kill a very badly hurt bird when you are not used (like most birders) to do these things. You don't see the worst part and the bird usually feels more relaxed, it is not a bad advice but probably too early posted ;) . Some advice on the rehab/vet on first posts and if things turn wrong (no help from them) then the euthanise advice is understandable. Sounds harsh but I insist, doesn't sound a bad advice to my ears.
The rest of the discussion sounds more personal to my ears so I won't comment on that. Just take it easy.


Sounds about right in my humble judgement - maybe we should start a thread on 'acceptable proceedures' for the future. Here's a couple of links for a few bits of kit that might be needed;

http://www.baseballbatshop.com/
http://www.worldofsurplus.com/ishop/1061/shopscr1755.html

Interesting, there are 7 members currently viewing this thread - nothing like a bit of conflict to create an audience - maybe that says more about the viewers, that the participants!

Take it easy folks,
Keith.

[KnockerNorton]

Sounds about right in my humble judgement - maybe we should start a thread on 'acceptable proceedures' for the future. Here's a couple of links for a few bits of kit that might be needed;

http://www.baseballbatshop.com/
http://www.worldofsurplus.com/ishop/1061/shopscr1755.html

Interesting, there are 7 members currently viewing this thread - nothing like a bit of conflict to create an audience - maybe that says more about the viewers, that the participants!

Take it easy folks,
Keith.

y'mean not everyone carries a good slab of willow with them just on the off-chance? Wusses!

I don't do conflict, just conflicting opinions ;)

Interesting how it's divided along gender lines though....

[pygmy falcon]

Here's the deal: I am not going to be coaxed into giving out that kind of information, and heres why: Working at a vet hospital, we constantly have people bringing in wildlife, because they thought they know what was best for that animal. They think birds are abandoned because they are fledging and on the ground, they think deer are abandoned because mom wasn't right next to it when they happened across it, they think that baby rabbits need help. They bring these animals in, because they think they are doing a good thing, when really, they didn't need to interfere at all, and now the animal is worse off because of it.
Let me be clear, I am not at all saying the original poster shouldn't have picked up the kestrel, in fact, I think it's grand that she did. What I am saying is that the average joe shmoe shouldn't be deciding to self euthanize an animal without proper advice first. I'm also going to say, again, that putting an animal in a bag and beating it is NEVER a good way to euthanize. that bird will likely not die immediately when the first blow is given. The last moments of that animal's life will be in excruciating pain, THANKS TO YOU. I am not going to give advice on how to euthanize an animal, again, ON A PUBLIC FORUM. We don't need to be giving ideas to people out there, because I'm sure that there are some bad apples out there who would use the information provided and do some unscrupulous things. You're kidding yourself if you don't think those individuals exist.
If you want this information, then contact someone who has some authority on the subject, don't be giving/getting advice on a faceless, nameless forum.

And one more thing, if you make the decision to pick up injured wildlife, you better expect to get your hands bloody in the matter. If you can make that decision, you better be able to follow through, in a humane way, until the end. Out of sight, out of mind is just a way of saying you can't take responsibility for what you have done, or for what you are about to do.

[Isurus]

y'mean not everyone carries a good slab of willow with them just on the off-chance? Wusses!




Sadly for world sport our American cousins perfer lumps of maple, ash or even aluminium (known in their language as "Aluminum") :t:

[deborah4]

Guidelines from whom? There is no authority in this field, certainly not the RSPCA (which kills 90,000 animals a year, some simply because they can't find them a home). There is no law on what to do with an injured wild bird (not in the UK, sorry OP), so people are essentially free to do what they wish and follow whatever guidelines they choose from whatever source they want, as long as it can't be shown to cause unecessary suffering.

Why don't you read my posts properly instead of twisting everything I say - I REPEAT the same thing I've been trying to say throughout this thread:

The RSPCA and the RSPB and other animal welfare organisations give guidelines/advice whatever you want to call it on what to do if you find an injured bird which are:

Place it in a quiet place in a container and contact a Vet or the RSPCA ASAP for PROFESSIONAL ADVICE

How, me repeating that - something that other members, Mods etc have said themselves, sets my up by you to be called ''ignorant'', ''sentimental'', ''inexperienced'' etc etc

Any personal comments I have directed at you is because I don't take kindly to being told the above in response to repeating what is generally acceptable advice to all apart from you it seems about what to do in the first instance in coming across an injured bird. I sincerely hope that after reading this thread, people will continue to follow the above advice.

As you say, people are free to do as they choose if they find a bird of prey with a broken wing but if it's not the above, for reasons you should have realised, if you are as 'experienced' as you say, shouldn't even have got as far as being voiced on an OPEN FORUM.

[deborah4]

Let me be clear, I am not at all saying the original poster shouldn't have picked up the kestrel, in fact, I think it's grand that she did. What I am saying is that the average joe shmoe shouldn't be deciding to self euthanize an animal without proper advice first. I'm also going to say, again, that putting an animal in a bag and beating it is NEVER a good way to euthanize. that bird will likely not die immediately when the first blow is given. The last moments of that animal's life will be in excruciating pain, THANKS TO YOU. I am not going to give advice on how to euthanize an animal, again, ON A PUBLIC FORUM. We don't need to be giving ideas to people out there, because I'm sure that there are some bad apples out there who would use the information provided and do some unscrupulous things. You're kidding yourself if you don't think those individuals exist.
If you want this information, then contact someone who has some authority on the subject, don't be giving/getting advice on a faceless, nameless forum.



Thank you PF - I actually PM'd a Mod earlier this morning to voice exactly the same concerns (not even wanting to make public those concerns for risk of it being used in a negative way by net crawlers) which is why I also have tried to keep the thread on line in a way that I believe is acceptable on a Public Forum and tried to help steer the subject away from euthanasia despite my own inclinations to make an early retreat from this thread which has been a rather unenjoyable experience in being involved with an argument with those who think otherwise.

[KnockerNorton]

Here's the deal: I am not going to be coaxed into giving out that kind of information, and heres why: Working at a vet hospital, we constantly have people bringing in wildlife, because they thought they know what was best for that animal. They think birds are abandoned because they are fledging and on the ground, they think deer are abandoned because mom wasn't right next to it when they happened across it, they think that baby rabbits need help. They bring these animals in, because they think they are doing a good thing, when really, they didn't need to interfere at all, and now the animal is worse off because of it.
Let me be clear, I am not at all saying the original poster shouldn't have picked up the kestrel, in fact, I think it's grand that she did. What I am saying is that the average joe shmoe shouldn't be deciding to self euthanize an animal without proper advice first. I'm also going to say, again, that putting an animal in a bag and beating it is NEVER a good way to euthanize. that bird will likely not die immediately when the first blow is given. The last moments of that animal's life will be in excruciating pain, THANKS TO YOU. I am not going to give advice on how to euthanize an animal, again, ON A PUBLIC FORUM. We don't need to be giving ideas to people out there, because I'm sure that there are some bad apples out there who would use the information provided and do some unscrupulous things. You're kidding yourself if you don't think those individuals exist.
If you want this information, then contact someone who has some authority on the subject, don't be giving/getting advice on a faceless, nameless forum.

And one more thing, if you make the decision to pick up injured wildlife, you better expect to get your hands bloody in the matter. If you can make that decision, you better be able to follow through, in a humane way, until the end. Out of sight, out of mind is just a way of saying you can't take responsibility for what you have done, or for what you are about to do.

I thought you were claiming some authority on this subject, as a Vet tech of 9 yrs?

A small falcon hit hard with a bat will be very dead after the first blow, i assure you, but the method does insist on several rapid blows, so a nanosecond later it will be ever more dead, then some more. CO2 poisoning, as you suggested, takes minutes, and can be very stressful.

I'm not asking you to put the info on a public forum if you don't want to, I was just asking for your advice in a PM. I'm always open to improved/different methods, although I understand that Vet Tech's are not actually qualified to euthanase animals in a vet practice (at all, or unless supervised?)?

[KnockerNorton]

Why don't you read my posts properly instead of twisting everything I say - I REPEAT the same thing I've been trying to say throughout this thread:


I know you do, but that's not what I've been asking you for the past several days on here. If you answer, I'll stop asking. A simple "haven't got a clue how to euthanase a bird humanely because I've never done it" will suffice.

[KnockerNorton]

Thank you PF - I actually PM'd a Mod earlier this morning to voice exactly the same concerns (not even wanting to make public those concerns for risk of it being used in a negative way by net crawlers) which is why I also have tried to keep the thread on line in a way that I believe is acceptable on a Public Forum and tried to help steer the subject away from euthanasia despite my own inclinations to make an early retreat from this thread which has been a rather unenjoyable experience in being involved with an argument with those who think otherwise.

unless a mod actually agrees with you that there is a risk that people will go out and somehow pluck birds from trees and then club them to death for fun because they read it on here, I think you're being 'hyperthetical'.

[KnockerNorton]

CO2:

Carbon dioxid e : Exposure to carbon dioxide
is a widely used method of euthanasia for
mammals and birds (Close e t a l. 1996, 1997 ).
Opinion is divided on its acceptability as it
appears to be aversive to some animals,
which is likely to cause distress (e.g. Raj
1996, Humane Slaughter Association 1999,
Leach e t al . 2001 ). Ducks and diving birds
should never be ki lled using carbon dioxide
because they possess physiological mechanisms
that enable them to withstand
hypercapnia and can therefore take a comparat
ively long time to die. Very young
chicks are also highly resilient to carbon
dioxide because it accumulates in the air
space before hatching (Jaksch 1981) and so
can also take a long time to die (M Raj,
unpublished observation on domestic fowl
and turkey chicks during exposure to concentrations
of less than 80% in air). Little
research has been carried out to evaluate the
aversiveness of CO2 in adult birds of other
species, but studies in rats and mice have
shown that carbon dioxide is severely aversive
and that halothane is the least aversive
of a range of inhalational anaesthetics (Leach
e t a l. 2001). Responses in birds are likely to
be similar (M Raj , personal communication),
so the Working Party recommends that birds
should be given the bene®t of the doubt and
euthanased with injectable or inhalational
anaesthetic agents (e.g. halothane) wherever
possible, perhaps followed by CO2 when they
are unconscious.
Laboratory birds: refinements in husbandry and procedures S1:55
Laboratory Animals (2001) 35 (Suppl. 1)

[Marmot]

I Would Like To Point Out That This Thread Seems To Have Gone Off The Initial Subject And Is Begining To Result In Unecessary Remarks.....please Act In A Decent Manner Towards Each Other.

[deborah4]

WELL - seeing as I and several others that have PM'd me with the same concern but are not willing to be targets in any discussion

I'll make plain my concerns and those of others, why I have not answered your question and why I think it's irresponsible of you to proceed with this - The moderators are not here to be policemen Poecile but everyone who cares about wild birds needs to take a share in the responsibility of what we post on the net.

There are all sorts that trawl the internet, including members who will always pick something like this up and assume that what they are reading is PROFESSIONAL and EXPERT advice or, in their ignorance, self-euthanise birds to save the money or trouble of taking it to a Vet/Rehab. Or, there will be some who think it has no chance of a ''good life'' whatever that means and dispatch it anyway. The risks of unexperienced people following anonomous and distant advice on an internet forum should be obvious, it could result in a very painful death indeed, or even botched completely making things far worse for the bird concerned - ie. a bird could end up in an inaccessible area having surprised the handler with a particularly vicious talon attack, not only with a broken wing but also suffering the effects of a botched euthanasia, serious head injury, CO2 poisoning etc. There will always be a few more, who will wrongly ''diagnose'' the extent of wing damage, but dispatch the bird anyway on that score. There is also the possibility (and I've discussed this with contacts away from BF) that BoP could be intentionally dispatched, for example by those who persecute BoP, who then fabricate/destroy ''evidence'' to argue it was a 'mercy killing' as a cover up for a more sinister cause of death.

How to kill birds is really is not a responsible topic for PUBLIC forum IMO and it's even more irresponsible for people to present themselves as self-appointed cyber-experts who could end up doing causing more problems than they are trying to solve. There are a lot of people out there who may be wrongly influenced in a great many ways to the detriment of wild birds.

[deborah4]

Hello,

I found a male American kestrel with a broken wing. He is very active. I've left two messages with the rehabilitation centers listed online in West Virginia but have not received any calls back yet. I'm leaving for vacation tomorrow for two weeks and will be working during the day so I'm not sure how I am going to get the bird to the center. I have a friend who might be able to transport it.

At any rate, if I have to keep this bird over night, what care should I give it?? I'm sure it will live. It's climbing all over the make shift cage I have it in right now and was running all over the yard a while ago.

When he was a bit calmer I fed him some water through a small syringe. I had two pairs of garden gloves on which he quickly put a death grip on.

Thanks,

Becca

I believe this was the original subject matter and since the bird has now been taken into care anything further arguments on this thread are mute and off topic - unless of course we hear from Becca on the Kestrel's progress or anyone has any advice on what interim care can be given while waiting for a call back from a wildlife rescue centre or vet etc

[KnockerNorton]

I'll make plain my concerns and those of others, why I have not answered your question and why I think it's irresponsible of you to proceed with this - The moderators are not here to be policemen .

no, that's your self-appointed job, apparently. The mods run this website, Deborah4, not you, so please do not try and control what people do or do not post.

I'm afraid that i only got as far as the bit about 'professional and expert' before i stopped reading, as I was getting deja vu about telling you that i had years of experience with handling wild birds including casualties and got paid for it. Your credentials in this field, as far as you've let slip, are zero.

By the way, Poecile's dead, they were put in a bag and bludgeoned by KnockerNorton for having a mild limp.

[deborah4]

no, that's your self-appointed job, apparently. The mods run this website, Deborah4, not you, so please do not try and control what people do or do not post.

.

Don't really give a fig about who runs the site as far as this discussion is concerned. I've voiced my concerns about what you are doing, you choose to ignore them fine - you choose to ignore Pygmy Falcon's concerns (someone that does seem to have the experience you seek) fine

People can make up their own minds about what is responsible and what isn't - I'm out of here having wasted far too much time responding to your personally directed attempts to get me involved in a discussion about euthanasia over the past few days unwillingly for the reasons I've stated above. thank you very much.

[timwootton]

Just looking at the original photograph of the kestrel's injury and I am of the opinion that the damaged wing is probably intact, and that the damage is likely to be muscular or tendon/ligament damage. It's also possible that there's been a severe dislocation or perhaps a break in the humerus (nice to introduce a bit more humerus to this discussion, I think). As I've tried to show in the first drawing, the wing is hyperflexed and twisted to some degree, but it's not massively out of alignment (in fact, anyone who's observed geese distracting with a broken-wing display would have noticed them holding their wing in a similar position – that's not to say this bird isn't very severely damaged – I'm sure it is).
The drawings show the wing is in the correct 'wing shape' but it's not possible to determine the extent of the damage from these pics.
The second photo doesn't show the 'important' wing, so there's no way of knowing if it's dropped back into some semblance of alignment, maybe yay, maybe nay.
On the point of killing the bird, I'm sure I would have done so. Only very clean breaks have any real chance of repair and even then, in a bird of prey which relies on maximum physical condition each and every minute of every day to survive, perhaps the repair would never be enough for the bird to live in the wild again. (The issue about captivity is complex and doesn't interest me in this context, so I'll leave it to others to discuss, should they so wish.)

For the squeamish, please read no further, but here is a bit of practical advice to those finding a severely injured/dying bird.
The first thing one must do is ascertain the level of injury. As this thread has proven, that may not always be easy, but one must make an assessment if the welfare of the individual bird is to be taken into account.
On the subject of killing a bird of this size – neck-pulling (breaking) is a very quick and efficient method, but as has been discussed, can cause the practitioner a certain amount of distress (and even guilt) and really ought not be done unless one is confident of 'finishing what one started' – you can't chicken out halfway through. In my experience, it's much better to overdo the action that to fudge it – the bird will not die unless the spinal chord is severed and you'll just cause it more pain. Holding the bird's feet firmly (watch out if it's a bird with serious 'footwear') grasp the neck just under the chin. Place your thumb under the chin and, as you pull down with one sharp movement, flex your wrist, bending the bird's head forward towards you. The stretching of body and flexing of the neck will break the cord.
Another less traumatic (for the practitioner) method is to stand on the bird's head swiftly with one's heel. Make certain there's a hard surface underneath and the job is quite instantaneous. Holding the bird in a bag is a good tip, but be certain you are aware of where the vital bits are – you need to be standing or hitting the bird on the head – and swiftly and determindly.
For large birds (ducks, geese etc) you really do need to be quite strong or else leave the job to someone else (I've had a lot of practice on heavyweight Sussex cockerels and it still takes some doing) – but capturing the bird and restraining it in a dark container is good advice and should help to calm the subject down somewhat.
One final point – special tools are available form poultry suppliers – they're designed like pliers and, when positioned properly on the neck, make an exceeingly effective job and it's clean and less stressful that neck-pulling. I would advocate that as nature-lovers it is an essential piece of kit to have on one's person.
This is meant as useful guidance for those unfortunate enough to HAVE to perform this extremely unsavoury task. There almost always is a sense of guilt (that's why we are human) but remind yourself that it was to prevent further suffering. Only undertake the process if one is; a) certain there is no hope for the bird and b) you can be certain of your ability to conclude the process.

[KnockerNorton]

[LEFT]Just looking at the original photograph of the kestrel's injury and I am of the opinion that the damaged wing is probably intact, and that the damage is likely to be muscular or tendon/ligament damage. It's also possible that there's been a severe dislocation or perhaps a break in the humerus (nice to introduce a bit more humerus to this discussion, I think). As I've tried to show in the first drawing, the wing is hyperflexed and twisted to some degree, but it's not massively out of alignment (in fact, anyone who's observed geese distracting with a broken-wing display would have noticed them holding their wing in a similar position – that's not to say this bird isn't very severely damaged – I'm sure it is).

yes, I do agree that it's not the carpals (as I first suggested, I noticed this the other day but got bogged down in other issues :) ) but higher up. However, it isn't a dislocation of the humerus imo as the tertials are still in alignment, whereas most of the secondaries are not, so it has to be a twist on the radius/ulna, which must mean a break (tertials mostly emanate form the radius/ulna section http://www.gutenberg.org/files/20417/20417-h/images/image155c.jpg), not the humerus. It's possible there's a compound fracture though, and will definately be ligament damage.

[CJW]

There seems to be too much emotion and not enough practicality on this thread.
Personally I'm with KnockerNorton but would have chosen a different method of despatch to the one he recommended.
It's never a pleasant thing to have to do but if you have the ability to rise above 'girlie emotions' it is more often than not the best course of action.

[Clive Watson]

Does anyone have any suggestions as to how it might have picked up such an injury?

[DaveN]

Does anyone have any suggestions as to how it might have picked up such an injury?


It looks like it's been hit with a baseball bat ;)

[timwootton]

The last Merlin I had was in similar condition (but not as extreme) and we summised it had been 'discussing issues' with a short-eared owl. If the kestrel's wing is a break to one of the 'arm' bones - it could be a collision (vehicle?) - best ask the Original Poster where it was found?

[KnockerNorton]

It looks like it's been hit with a baseball bat ;)

arf arf!

car, I assumed. stuck in a fence, maybe? Hit a wire? Could be anything really.

[timwootton]

It looks like it's been hit with a baseball bat ;)
Oooh David!!!!!

[saluki]

Personally, I think KN's advice is excellent, I can't understand why anyone would want to censor this thread? As for ignorant or inexperienced people making the wrong decisions - surely one can't seriously consider such a tiny minority, the advice given is correct for the 99.999% of people who aren't quite so stupid!

Realistically, what are the prospects for a one-winged kestrel - should it survive - in the UK? If it's very lucky, a sympathetic falconer may take it on. It would live it's life out tethered to a block - at night it would be safe in mews, during the day it would be placed outside on a 'weathering ground'. This is possibly the best option - raptors are inately lazy (as we see it) and spend most of their time roosting anyway, so it wouldn't be too bad a life. Falconers tame birds by 'manning' - the process of taking the bird to and from the mews will calm it down sufficiently so that it eventually accepts the process and doesn't panic - I rehabed (though I couldn't, obviously, release her) a one-eyed sparrowhawk when I was a kid that had been handled so often by vets, etc., she became so tame she would occasionally tuck her head under her wing and sleep on my fist. Believe me, this is rare with a bird as neurotic as a spar!. She accepted her surroundings and was, pressumably, reasonably happy.

Unfortunately, most rehabers in the UK have very little appreciation of the needs of raptors, and the poor kestrel may eventually be shoved into an aviary, possibly with other species, to live out the rest of it's life grovelling around on the floor, or perched as high as it can possibly get by hopping from perch to perch - a dismal thing to witness. Is this any sort of life for a raptor? Surely it's not simply enough to preserve the life of a bird, a great deal of thought must be given to the quality of life the bird has to subsequently endure?

For what it's worth, I'd use a 'priest' (a piece of wood, weighted at one end - fishing shops and shooting suppliers sell them) to kill any bird if I hadn't any previous experience. As Tim suggests, breaking a bird's neck is very swift, but I've seen it go horribly wrong when someone who's not been shown the correct method attempts it for the first time. Hold the bird tightly in one hand (or wrap the body in cloth), then rap it swiftly and firmly over the head with the priest. As KN suggests, you can't really hit it too hard - it may look messy but the bird will be dead!

Jonathan

[pygmy falcon]

There seems to be too much emotion and not enough practicality on this thread.
Personally I'm with KnockerNorton but would have chosen a different method of despatch to the one he recommended.
It's never a pleasant thing to have to do but if you have the ability to rise above 'girlie emotions' it is more often than not the best course of action.


That is incredibly insulting.There's no need to make broad based attacks on gender.

I joined this forum thinking it was a place where people could discuss birds, enjoy birds, etc. But this thread has turned into 3 PAGES of how to kill a bird. The fact of the matter is that Knockernorton's FIRST PIECE OF ADVICE was to put the bird in a bag and beat it. He did not know how long the original poster had the bird, or how long that person had waited for a return phone call. I can tell you from experience of having 3 American Kestrels of my own (I'm a licensed falconer), that the bird did not seem to be in that much distress, based on those pictures, and what Baccalynn had told us.

This isn't a joke, but many of you are turning it in to some kind of joke. maybe some of you would know better than to kill the bird right off, but I would imagine people who have no idea what is going on, come to this forum for advice, and this is the kind of ludicrous things that people are telling them. Well done.

Knockernorton, if you truly worked for a bird rescue, like you claim to, you would be able to give better advice. This type of advice is psychotic, and not remotely humane.

This thread is making me sick to my stomach, that people have such a lack of respect for an animal, is utterly disgusting. There are a select few people that have actually tried to make an effort, and keep this thread on topic and professional, while others are trying to make it into their own personal agenda, and making personal attacks that have nothing to do with the thread.

[KnockerNorton]

That is incredibly insulting.There's no need to make broad based attacks on gender.

I think you misread it - I think he meant our individual 'girlie emotions', male and female. It wasn't directed at you or anyone else imo. (could be wrong!)

I joined this forum thinking it was a place where people could discuss birds, etc.

thought we were, unless you have an injured badger too??? I'm get me bat....

fact of the matter is that Knockernorton's FIRST PIECE OF ADVICE was to put the bird in a bag and beat it.

no, read it again. My FIRST piece of advice was to take it to a vet. Do please read before posting in haste....


Knockernorton, if you truly worked for a bird rescue, like you claim to, you would be able to give better advice.

no, I don't think i did, actually. Again, you really should read before jumping on people's cyberbacks. Poor.

This type of advice is psychotic, and not remotely humane. .

yeah, about that, I'm still waiting for your advice on how to do it better. You don't seem to know though.

and making personal attacks that have nothing to do with the thread.

such as calling people psychotic and disgusting? Pots/kettles, PF, pots/kettles.

[KnockerNorton]

Personally, I think KN's advice is excellent, I can't understand why anyone would want to censor this thread? As for ignorant or inexperienced people making the wrong decisions - surely one can't seriously consider such a tiny minority, the advice given is correct for the 99.999% of people who aren't quite so stupid!

Realistically, what are the prospects for a one-winged kestrel - should it survive - in the UK? If it's very lucky, a sympathetic falconer may take it on. It would live it's life out tethered to a block - at night it would be safe in mews, during the day it would be placed outside on a 'weathering ground'. This is possibly the best option - raptors are inately lazy (as we see it) and spend most of their time roosting anyway, so it wouldn't be too bad a life. Falconers tame birds by 'manning' - the process of taking the bird to and from the mews will calm it down sufficiently so that it eventually accepts the process and doesn't panic - I rehabed (though I couldn't, obviously, release her) a one-eyed sparrowhawk when I was a kid that had been handled so often by vets, etc., she became so tame she would occasionally tuck her head under her wing and sleep on my fist. Believe me, this is rare with a bird as neurotic as a spar!. She accepted her surroundings and was, pressumably, reasonably happy.

Unfortunately, most rehabers in the UK have very little appreciation of the needs of raptors, and the poor kestrel may eventually be shoved into an aviary, possibly with other species, to live out the rest of it's life grovelling around on the floor, or perched as high as it can possibly get by hopping from perch to perch - a dismal thing to witness. Is this any sort of life for a raptor? Surely it's not simply enough to preserve the life of a bird, a great deal of thought must be given to the quality of life the bird has to subsequently endure?

For what it's worth, I'd use a 'priest' (a piece of wood, weighted at one end - fishing shops and shooting suppliers sell them) to kill any bird if I hadn't any previous experience. As Tim suggests, breaking a bird's neck is very swift, but I've seen it go horribly wrong when someone who's not been shown the correct method attempts it for the first time. Hold the bird tightly in one hand (or wrap the body in cloth), then rap it swiftly and firmly over the head with the priest. As KN suggests, you can't really hit it too hard - it may look messy but the bird will be dead!

Jonathan

give that man a pint, landlord.

[deborah4]

That is incredibly insulting.There's no need to make broad based attacks on gender.

I joined this forum thinking it was a place where people could discuss birds, enjoy birds, etc. But this thread has turned into 3 PAGES of how to kill a bird. The fact of the matter is that Knockernorton's FIRST PIECE OF ADVICE was to put the bird in a bag and beat it. He did not know how long the original poster had the bird, or how long that person had waited for a return phone call. I can tell you from experience of having 3 American Kestrels of my own (I'm a licensed falconer), that the bird did not seem to be in that much distress, based on those pictures, and what Baccalynn had told us.

This isn't a joke, but many of you are turning it in to some kind of joke. maybe some of you would know better than to kill the bird right off, but I would imagine people who have no idea what is going on, come to this forum for advice, and this is the kind of ludicrous things that people are telling them. Well done.

Knockernorton, if you truly worked for a bird rescue, like you claim to, you would be able to give better advice. This type of advice is psychotic, and not remotely humane.

This thread is making me sick to my stomach, that people have such a lack of respect for an animal, is utterly disgusting. There are a select few people that have actually tried to make an effort, and keep this thread on topic and professional, while others are trying to make it into their own personal agenda, and making personal attacks that have nothing to do with the thread.

Well I feel the need to agree with another very well put post by Pygmy Falcon - I think that's one experienced lady I would gladly ask for help and who's advice I would gladly follow - Something tells me that I'd also follow her advice via email/private communication should I need help with an injured bird in the situation Knocker has described.

Thanks again for your professional input PF, please don't be deterred from staying with BF - it can get a bit rough as you've seen :gh:

[Apodemus]

give that man a pint, landlord.



And a battered cod. Or maybe a club sandwich

[Bubbs]

What happend to the injured bird?

[KnockerNorton]

And a battered cod. Or maybe a club sandwich

and a bag of crisps?

[KnockerNorton]

Well I feel the need to agree with another very well put post by Pygmy Falcon - I think that's one experienced lady I would gladly ask for help and who's advice I would gladly follow - Something tells me that I'd also follow her advice via email/private communication should I need help with an injured bird in the situation Knocker has described.

Thanks again for your professional input PF, please don't be deterred from staying with BF - it can get a bit rough as you've seen :gh:

Pygmy Falcon has only ever been involved with the treatment of cats and dogs, apparently.

You ,might like to ask her more about her falcons though, and where they came from, and what she does with them.

[pygmy falcon]

Pygmy Falcon has only ever been involved with the treatment of cats and dogs, apparently.

You ,might like to ask her more about her falcons though, and where they came from, and what she does with them.



Wow. Although I had the decency and maturity to take this to PM, as well as apologize for personal attacks, you still have the audacity to come back into the forum and be a jerk. What you fail to mention here, is that I said that when I go to work as a vet tech, I work with dogs and cats. Not that I only work with dogs and cats. As I mentioned previously, I have a lot of experience with raptors... healthy ones, and non releasables.

As far as bringing up falconry, and in an immature way I might add, is the fact that, yes, my falcons do take wild quarry. The wild quarry I referred to was non native, invasive species. When my falcons catch something, it is dispatched quickly and humanely. I would not deny this information to anyone that asked. My point was merely to say that this is not appropriate forum fodder. Nice try. What is the point of you calling me out like that? Are you trying to get people to come after me with flames and pitchforks?

I thought we could be mature adults about this, and keep it in the PMs, and stop with the personal attacks, but instead of responding to my PM (you know, the one where I apologized for personally attacking you?) you come back here, and try to start an argument with me again! What's your deal?

[KnockerNorton]

Wow. Although I had the decency and maturity to take this to PM, as well as apologize for personal attacks, you still have the audacity to come back into the forum and be a jerk. What you fail to mention here, is that I said that when I go to work as a vet tech, I work with dogs and cats. Not that I only work with dogs and cats. As I mentioned previously, I have a lot of experience with raptors... healthy ones, and non releasables.

As far as bringing up falconry, and in an immature way I might add, is the fact that, yes, my falcons do take wild quarry. The wild quarry I referred to was non native, invasive species. When my falcons catch something, it is dispatched quickly and humanely. I would not deny this information to anyone that asked. My point was merely to say that this is not appropriate forum fodder. Nice try. What is the point of you calling me out like that? Are you trying to get people to come after me with flames and pitchforks?

I thought we could be mature adults about this, and keep it in the PMs, and stop with the personal attacks, but instead of responding to my PM (you know, the one where I apologized for personally attacking you?) you come back here, and try to start an argument with me again! What's your deal?


You brought up falconry, actually. Do keep up. You said in post 66 that you had 3 american kestrels. I suggested that deborah4 asked you where they were from and what you did with them, as I suspect that it may not chime with her opinions on what is humane when it comes to raptors, and seeing as you've both publicly slated me for the past 2 days for being inhumane. That's all. I mentioned nothing in the PM re falconry, although i'm sorry that I busted you as a cat/dog technician - I didn't realise that it might be sensitive info. My bad. Certainly no personal attacks there though, although i notice that your attacks were public but your apology was private. But i see you're back to form with the name-calling.

what methods do you use to despatch your pet kestrels's victims quickly and humanely though? That's what we've been discussing, so I'm still interested to hear.

[pygmy falcon]

You brought up falconry, actually. Do keep up. You said in post 66 that you had 3 american kestrels. I suggested that deborah4 asked you where they were from and what you did with them, as I suspect that it may not chime with her opinions on what is humane when it comes to raptors, and seeing as you've both publicly slated me for the past 2 days for being inhumane. That's all. I mentioned nothing in the PM re falconry, although i'm sorry that I busted you as a cat/dog technician - I didn't realise that it might be sensitive info. My bad. Certainly no personal attacks there though, although i notice that your attacks were public but your apology was private. But i see you're back to form with the name-calling.

what methods do you use to despatch your pet kestrels's victims quickly and humanely though? That's what we've been discussing, so I'm still interested to hear.


Busted as a cat/dog tech? That is one of the lamest things I've ever heard. I'm quite happy with what I do, and I don't appreciate the comment.

I said 3 times in this thread that I'm a falconer. I was never hiding that. Anyone with a brain or wikipedia can figure out what I do.

Quit badgering me for information that I previously stated over and over and over that I am not going to contribute to this forum.

You are a bully, KnockerNorton, and I'm done playing into your games here. This forum is not the popularity contest you seem to think it is.

[KnockerNorton]

Busted as a cat/dog tech? That is one of the lamest things I've ever heard. I'm quite happy with what I do, and I don't appreciate the comment.

was trying to be light-hearted.

I said 3 times in this thread that I'm a falconer. I was never hiding that. Anyone with a brain or wikipedia can figure out what I do.

I know, so why jump on me for mentioning it then?

Quit badgering me for information that I previously stated over and over and over that I am not going to contribute to this forum.

you can PM me, as I've said. I don't quite get why it's a secret. If you can share good practice, I'm sure it would be useful.

You are a bully, KnockerNorton,

jerk, immature, psychotic, inhumane. All aggressive words used by you to describe me, and I'm the bully? If you don't like my asking you to justify your harsh attacks on my advice by backing it up with something more tangible than 9 yrs with cats and dogs, then quit jumping on me!

[deborah4]

Wow indeed ... falconry an off topic subject and as far as I know that IS BF rules.

As for ''publically slating'' K.N for being 'inhumane' on the contrary, I have been constantly insulted for repeatedly insisting people contact the nearest available Vet/rescue centre for advice if they find an injured bird and being called ''ignorant'' etc etc for saying so.

Really, stop slinging mud at those that disagree with your personal point of view KN, it's doing you no favors whatsoever

[Andy Bright]

Can we get away from tit for tat bashing... we didn't mind the thread when there was genuine info being posted but it's all got a bit silly now.
Probably best for everyone to take a break from this thread (which several had promised) unless there some genuinely worthwhile contributions.

Yeah, everyone wants the last word but try to restrain yourselves.
Thanks,
Admin

[KnockerNorton]

[sorry Andy, posted after I'd seen yours]

[deborah4]

Since Andy has said BF doesn't mind euthanasia and various methods of such being discussed - fair enough - it's not a subject I particularly want to discuss (and not for being 'squimish' or 'girlie') but for the reasons I mentioned before. Obviously other members feel there is a need for this information to be made known and in this manner and can't see any potential negative implications of doing so - I'll maintain my original position I think on that one. It's a shame the subject got tagged on to a post that originally was a plea for help to care for a bird while waiting for expert help to arrive otherwise it might have been a smoother ride for everyone.

As it happens, I do think the issue is very valid indeed and none of us want to be in a situation where there simply is no hope at all of getting professional help at all but faced with a dire situation - I hope all of us would be brave enough to take the right action whatever that might be, although just at what point we feel such action is necessary/justified might vary widely.

[danehower]

Since Andy has said BF doesn't mind euthanasia and various methods of such being discussed - fair enough - it's not a subject I particularly want to discuss (and not for being 'squimish' or 'girlie') but for the reasons I mentioned before. Obviously other members feel there is a need for this information to be made known and in this manner and can't see any potential negative implications of doing so - I'll maintain my original position I think on that one. It's a shame the subject got tagged on to a post that originally was a plea for help to care for a bird while waiting for expert help to arrive otherwise it might have been a smoother ride for everyone.

As it happens, I do think the issue is very valid indeed and none of us want to be in a situation where there simply is no hope at all of getting professional help at all but faced with a dire situation - I hope all of us would be brave enough to take the right action whatever that might be, although just at what point we feel such action is necessary/justified might vary widely.

Good call deborah4 !:clap: I would like to humbly suggest that those without expert knowledge refrain from going "Reggy Jackson" ( a famous baseball slugger for the uninitiated) on a bird that appears to be injured. :t:

[dantheman]

This is after all an international forum, people of all nationalities and cultural sensitivities taking part, I agree we have to be a bit careful what advice is given, and whether it is given as the 'gospel what you should do' or as just one option of many.

Obviously more people reading this thread than taking part, possibly not taking part for fear of an argument, but hey. I wonder what the 'ex-beebers' or 'garden bird feeder' forum members would make of this issue? (and not being ex-beebist I hope ;) ).

A couple of points. I'm a bit wary of carrying on with this, but it would seem to be unresolved, it will arise again, and it doesn't appear to be a 'taboo' subject for BF. It is relating to a real scenario out there in the world of birds after all.

1) Legality. We are told on the Bird Q&A forum sometimes (ok fairly often at times) that it is a federal offence to hold captive a migratory wild bird. What is the situation with killing a migratory wild bird? Ditto the uk -if I killed eg a Kestrel (by methods under discussion), could I be open to allegations or prosecution even?

2) I can see problems with the actual carrying out of 'The Act'. The bag (plastic or natural, what about seepage or struggling . . .??), the instrument used, getting the bird into the bag in the first place, aiming and force (How many nervous townsfolk are going to get the first strike on target and hard enough? when their partners fingers are holding the sack too?). Should we be advising total amateurs to do this???

3) Where is this going to take place? On a farm maybe no probs. Small surburban garden, hmmm. What if the neighbours saw me with a bag and a club - I'd almost hope they'd call the police!
'But Officer, I had to do it, it had a broken wing'
'Lets have a look now. Hmmm broken wing, broken sternum, broken neck. I think you've been having far too much fun with that bat. You're coming down the station with me . . . '

Where would that leave you?

Or indoors. And worries of body fluids seeping etc . . .

4) Ethics/morality of euthanasia. Much as it is with humans euthanising their own kind, there are big issues with animal welfare, cruelty. Taking a life. Respect for animals. Respect for the 'spirit' of an animal (maybe other cultures like buddhism, native american religion and individuals beliefs). . . . etc

5) Disposal, possible future trauma to the 'euthanist' (especially if it didn't go to well) etc, I'm sure there are more. . .

To answer KN's main point, I'd say there are various options. Depending on the circumstances. His preferred method is only one, others may be better or worse, but there are several different aspects which all come into play on this one. Maybe we can't come up with a brilliant cover-all one except that given by Deborah4 earlier, which may also be less than ideal at times. So . . .

Waiting for a call back. And waiting. And the animal slipping away may well be one option. After all, how do we know how they feel pain, the sense of their own life going or depression. Maybe they have mechanisms which inure themselves from stress/pain as they become weaker?? I was under the impression they do . . . .

(Or my 'preferred' method (only if appropriate, mind, eg probably not an American Kestrel!!); injured animal released into hedgerow. Shelter available. It lives/it dies. It enters the food chain. It recycles in situ rather than being placed in a plastic bag and landfilled or incinerated at unnecessary cost. C'est la vie.)

At any rate, I think this is not a simple one which be solved by a simple bash over the head. Maybe the 'authorities' need to do a little more work on this one. Not wishing to be too controversial with this, hope I have partially explained what 'other's' viewpoints and stand on this one may be. I don't pretend to be an expert on any of this, but as I say, I can foresee some difficulties.

I also don't wish to carry on with this as a continuing big argument. If some of my points above are valid/invalid then so be it.

EDIT; just reread a few posts above to Andy's one . . . I'm kinda assuming this is actually a worthwhile contribution to the 'euthanasia' issue . . . This time of the morning can't be too sure . . ;)

[KnockerNorton]

1) Legality. We are told on the Bird Q&A forum sometimes (ok fairly often at times) that it is a federal offence to hold captive a migratory wild bird. What is the situation with killing a migratory wild bird? Ditto the uk -if I killed eg a Kestrel (by methods under discussion), could I be open to allegations or prosecution even?

I can't speak for US law as I am not fully conversant, but in the UK you can take in and look after (even if that means killing) any wild bird except the schedule 4 species and raptors (excluding kestrel, spar, owls, buzzard). Animal welfare acts alos come into play, as in a domestic animal (once it under your control) in that you must not allow it to suffer. So if it is terribly injured then you either have to treat it, take it to someone who can, or kill it, or take it to someone who will. All promptly.

2) I can see problems with the actual carrying out of 'The Act'. The bag (plastic or natural, what about seepage or struggling . . .??), the instrument used, getting the bird into the bag in the first place, aiming and force (How many nervous townsfolk are going to get the first strike on target and hard enough? when their partners fingers are holding the sack too?). Should we be advising total amateurs to do this???

On something up to about crow sized you really don't have to worry about 'seepage' much, or what kind of bag. The idea is to have it restrained, calm (hence held in a dark bag) and to destroy the brain/essentials as quickly as you can. One blow will usually do it, but several hard ones is rapdi succession makes sure. You can't do it by halves, so have to 'commit' and give it a good whack, as emphasised earlier. It is very easy, very quick, and not rocket science. Hence pretty much anyone *could* do it, if they felt able and were sure it was the right thing to do. Most more comfortable with it can used a priest or equivalent ((Saluki) and dispense with the bag. The idea of the bag is to make it much easier for anyone without an option.

3) Where is this going to take place? On a farm maybe no probs. Small surburban garden, hmmm. What if the neighbours saw me with a bag and a club - I'd almost hope they'd call the police!
'But Officer, I had to do it, it had a broken wing'
'Lets have a look now. Hmmm broken wing, broken sternum, broken neck. I think you've been having far too much fun with that bat. You're coming down the station with me . . . '

birds are not very easy to come by, so you have quite a good defence by being in possession of it in the first place. They generally have to be injured before you can catch them. Altough it IS legal and they would have to prove that it was somehow an illegal act. You can do it anywhere where you can swing a bat/other heavy object/hammer, but clearly not in public view or in view of other birds if at all possible. No point in distressing any one/thing else.

Where would that leave you?

with a dead bird in a bag.

Or indoors. And worries of body fluids seeping etc . . .

Not really an issue. There will be a bit of blood, but birds don't have much in the way of body fluids.

4) Ethics/morality of euthanasia.

that is for each indivual's conscience, and is nothing to do with the practicalities or legalities, so lets' leave that, shall we?

5) Disposal, possible future trauma to the 'euthanist' (especially if it didn't go to well) etc, I'm sure there are more. . .

it's already in a bag, so put it in the dustbin. It's very hard for it not to 'go well', as all you have to do is hit an object in a bag with a heavy thing, several times. Can you hammer a nail in? Then you can do this.

His preferred method is only one, others may be better or worse,

Indeed, I only ever said such, and I don't use it myself because I'm used to it. But for someone stuck in a difficult situation who's never done it before, it's not a bad option at all. Clearly, getting it to a vet within a few hours is the preferred option. But that's not the only one either.

Waiting for a call back. And waiting. And the animal slipping away may well be one option. After all, how do we know how they feel pain, the sense of their own life going or depression. Maybe they have mechanisms which inure themselves from stress/pain as they become weaker?? I was under the impression they do . . . .

well that's quite a lot of wishful thinking - what if you're wrong? And it also borders on illegality by allowing an animal to suffer.

(Or my 'preferred' method (only if appropriate, mind, eg probably not an American Kestrel!!); injured animal released into hedgerow.

Now that probably IS illegal, because you're abandoning an animal and allowing it to suffer. The technicalities of the animal's wild status are unresolved as it's never been to court, but a prosecution could certainly mount a good cruelty case. You are also condemning the animal to extended suffering and possibly slow death, which is unacceptable to me at least.

Maybe the 'authorities' need to do a little more work on this one.

again, there are no authorities, just a legal framework. Nobody owns or is in control of these birds until you pick them up, and then you're the authority (responsible in law).

[timwootton]

Let's take all the emotion out of this euthanasia issue and we're left with a very important issue - an issue which could present itself at any time to any of us 'What to do with a severely injured or dying bird'. What has become clear is that most on this forum either cannot or will not 'do the deed' and this is, actually, more distressing to me than hearing of how it can be done.
Leaving an injured bird to its own devices is neglect and cruel, probably punishable in court. After an assessment has been made of the bird's condition - you must act quickly - it's unfair and inhumaine not to. Forget the emotion of 'baseball bats' - the principle is straighforward - kill the bird - quickly.
I appreciate how dificult this is, particularly if you've never done it before (it gets easier, but only because you get more 'professional' at it, not because you care any less about the creature). Imagine you find a red grouse on a remote moorland, it's been 'winged' by shot and is slowly bleeding to death - this is the kind of scenario where a vet will not come and you either walk away (condeming the bird to a slow and probably painful demise), carry the bird several miles so someone else can do the inevitable, or do it yourself - knowing you are doing it for the best possible reasons - to prevent suffering. Now, as a nature lover, would you rather take the responsibility, knowing you'd done the right thing, or leave a living creature to suffer? As our cousins over the pond may say - it's a no-brainer, really.
So how are you going to do it??? That's what I think the more responsible correspondents have been trying to get us to address - and we need to, because we may need to call upon this very 'skill' at any time.
I offered some advice in an earlier post - if anyone has anything constructive to add, please do, I'm all ears.
Nature isn't cruel -it just is.

[KnockerNorton]

Hugh Fearnley Whittingstall gives a good description of the neck-break technique, similar to yours, in this book:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/River-Cottage-Cookbook-Hugh-Fearnley-Whittingstall/dp/0002202042/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217327154&sr=1-5

[Apodemus]

What has become clear is that most on this forum either cannot or will not 'do the deed' and this is, actually, more distressing to me than hearing of how it can be done.
Leaving an injured bird to its own devices is neglect and cruel, probably punishable in court. After an assessment has been made of the bird's condition - you must act quickly - it's unfair and inhumaine not to. Forget the emotion of 'baseball bats' - the principle is straighforward - kill the bird - quickly.
I appreciate how dificult this is, particularly if you've never done it before (it gets easier, but only because you get more 'professional' at it, not because you care any less about the creature). Imagine you find a red grouse on a remote moorland, it's been 'winged' by shot and is slowly bleeding to death - this is the kind of scenario where a vet will not come and you either walk away (condeming the bird to a slow and probably painful demise), carry the bird several miles so someone else can do the inevitable, or do it yourself - knowing you are doing it for the best possible reasons - to prevent suffering. Now, as a nature lover, would you rather take the responsibility, knowing you'd done the right thing, or leave a living creature to suffer? As our cousins over the pond may say - it's a no-brainer, really.
So how are you going to do it??? That's what I think the more responsible correspondents have been trying to get us to address - and we need to, because we may need to call upon this very 'skill' at any time.
I offered some advice in an earlier post - if anyone has anything constructive to add, please do, I'm all ears.
Nature isn't cruel -it just is.

Well said.

I've been watching this thread with interest (like many others, I think) and found it surprising that so many people seem unwilling to despatch a suffering animal. It's something that I have had to do on a fairly regular basis over the years and I assumed that anyone with an interest in wildlife would have had to do the same. Nick's account of two such incidents was moving, and showed that he cared enough to do what was needed. It is also clear (and not just from this thread), how committed Mr K. Norton (Bludger to his friends) is to animal welfare, so it is surprising how much vitriol he has attracted, although I'm sure he's capable of living with that.

[Storm-Petrel]

Well, after all this arguing, we still don't know what's happened to the kestrel.

[Jos Stratford]

invariably a vet will be at least able to advise over the phone what best to do in that situation and most rural communities have access to farming vets who could euthanise a bird [I]humanely[/I.


Without getting dragged too deeply into this, I would point out that this is an international forum and in many parts of the world, even in 'advanced' Europe, there will be no vet available to help and/or wanting to help. When I had four White Stork chicks badly in need of treatment, having been attacked by another stork and left with gaping wounds to the necks and bodies, I went round every vet I could find open that day to try and get help. Not one was willing to even contemplate helping, insisting they did not deal with wild birds. Offering to pay whatever made no difference - if they had been a pet parrot yes, but if the country's national bird, no. I had to patch them up myself and contemplate stitching the injuries. Only two days later, when two had as expected died, but the other two showing good signs did I find help - over 150 km from where the attack occurred did, a voluntary organisation with qualified vets that were able to assist.

So, if a bird is in need of being put down, something I would be reluctant to do, but I could as a last course, then it does come to the question of how it is done. At this stage, though the language has become emotive, I do not see the technique suggested by KnockerNorton as out of place - the important issue is speed and effectiveness, though 'bashing the brains out' might seem brutal, it is certainly going to be effective ...and to my mind far more likely to be humane compared to techniques such as unpracticed persons wringing the neck or similar.

As for the Kestrel, I do not think KN's comments were out of line, the guy had received no response till then and basically what he said was true, but I have to say I would have gone down the path of trying to saving it, though completely agree it will never fly again and a captive home is going to be its end.

[Woody]

It is a sad fact of life that animals and birds do get injured to the point where there is no hope for their survival either in the wild or if taken into captivity. The vast majority of members here would be reluctant to take appropriate action in these cases which are, nine times out of ten, blindingly obvious to anyone with eyes to see and an ounce of common sense. The point is, reluctant or not, it seems to me that we are morally obliged to take appropriate steps to end any suffering as soon as possible. There are many methods that can be used, KN's bag and bat approach is just one, but the point is, if it has to be done, then we should all have the courage to do it as quickly and efficiently as we can for the sake of the animal or bird concerned.
I have had to dispatch birds and animals quite a few times in my life and I don't find it pleasant but at least I know I've done the right thing. Personally I've used the neck pulling and I've done it with enough force and determination to separate the two halves and know that the job is done. Or, if I have a knife with me, (and I generally do when I'm out and about, it's just part of my 'kit'), then it goes swiftly into the skull from the back of the neck. A spine/head crushing stomp from a boot will do the same job but, like the others, it has to be determined, well aimed and forceful.

That said, I am also aware that there could be times where there is an element of doubt as to the severity of the injury and there may be a possibility that the bird or animal in question could make a recovery if given appropriate care. In these cases the advice given by 'the authorities' is sound; Get the creature to proper help as quickly as possible.

Whatever the individual case we must all take the appropriate action with courage and conviction. This is my personal position and no offence or insult is intended to any individual on this forum.

Mike

[Motmot]

It is a sad fact of life that animals and birds do get injured to the point where there is no hope for their survival either in the wild or if taken into captivity. The vast majority of members here would be reluctant to take appropriate action in these cases which are, nine times out of ten, blindingly obvious to anyone with eyes to see and an ounce of common sense. The point is, reluctant or not, it seems to me that we are morally obliged to take appropriate steps to end any suffering as soon as possible. There are many methods that can be used, KN's bag and bat approach is just one, but the point is, if it has to be done, then we should all have the courage to do it as quickly and efficiently as we can for the sake of the animal or bird concerned.
I have had to dispatch birds and animals quite a few times in my life and I don't find it pleasant but at least I know I've done the right thing. Personally I've used the neck pulling and I've done it with enough force and determination to separate the two halves and know that the job is done. Or, if I have a knife with me, (and I generally do when I'm out and about, it's just part of my 'kit'), then it goes swiftly into the skull from the back of the neck. A spine/head crushing stomp from a boot will do the same job but, like the others, it has to be determined, well aimed and forceful.

That said, I am also aware that there could be times where there is an element of doubt as to the severity of the injury and there may be a possibility that the bird or animal in question could make a recovery if given appropriate care. In these cases the advice given by 'the authorities' is sound; Get the creature to proper help as quickly as possible.

Whatever the individual case we must all take the appropriate action with courage and conviction. This is my personal position and no offence or insult is intended to any individual on this forum.

Mike

I couldn't have written it better :t: . Now it's about time for this thread to develop in a new, possibly sticky one, about what to do if anyone finds an injured bird. We are losing lots of good info for other members not attracted to this forum or thread name imo. There are tons of members or lurkers who will never take a look at this thread and possibly will need some advice when this frequent sad situation happens in their lives.
The original advice search on this particular thread is well covered I think.
Cheers,
Eduardo

[KnockerNorton]

I couldn't have written it better :t: . Now it's about time for this thread to develop in a new, possibly sticky one, about what to do if anyone finds an injured bird. We are losing lots of good info for other members not attracted to this forum or thread name imo. There are tons of members or lurkers who will never take a look at this thread and possibly will need some advice when this frequent sad situation happens in their lives.
The original advice search on this particular thread is well covered I think.
Cheers,
Eduardo

do a cut/paste then, and deprive them of the entertainment value! Or throw in the PMs and put it on a new 'comedy thread'.

[Isurus]

Since this discussion seems to be moving in a bit more of a positive direction I wanted to throw this out there:

Birds with these sorts of injuries would undoubtedly die in the wild without human assistance. In the US and Europe a decentish number of rehabilitation centres seem to have sprung up - many are charities. Is rehabilitation and rerelease (or maintenance of recovered but unreleasable birds - perhaps for use in education programmes) of non-endangered species ever a good spend of money that could be used on habitat conservation?

Discuss.

This isn't a view I subscribe to but it is a thought that crosses my mind from time to time when I see local news stories about centres with x tawny owls with one wing/one eye etc etc.

[KnockerNorton]

Since this discussion seems to be moving in a bit more of a positive direction I wanted to throw this out there:

Birds with these sorts of injuries would undoubtedly die in the wild without human assistance. In the US and Europe a decentish number of rehabilitation centres seem to have sprung up - many are charities. Is rehabilitation and rerelease (or maintenance of recovered but unreleasable birds - perhaps for use in education programmes) of non-endangered species ever a good spend of money that could be used on habitat conservation?

Discuss.

This isn't a view I subscribe to but it is a thought that crosses my mind from time to time when I see local news stories about centres with x tawny owls with one wing/one eye etc etc.

can of worms.

Personally, if someone is prepared to pay for it, then let them do it. But that is why the RSPB has nothing to do with that kind of thing, as its money goes on habitat/campaigning. There is no guarantee that the money donated to St Tiggywinkles would go to RSPB if ST closed down, so if they're willing to fund it, so be it. And all of these places do seem to be charities, i don't think any tax funds go to them, so it's hard to see how they're taking money from habitat conservation.

What i do feel uneasy about is the amount of effort that eg ST puts in to saving injured muntjacs and squirrels - they have a no kill and release policy (despite the illegality of it in some cases, releasing non-native species) - but to spend x amount of money on saving a muntjac or grey squirrel when every conservationist in the land is trying to kill them as quickly as possible, seems a bit daft. It does illustrate the point though that what these charities do is not really conservation. The effect it has on helping populations is zilch (except for the very occasional rare raptor, like the recent rehabilitated kite).

[dantheman]

Good that we are looking at this in a rational manner.

The extra point 6) on my original post above should have been; Action taken will totally depend on the species concerned, nature and extent of injuries, and location which the bird is found/owner lives. However, I guess we are generally all in agreement on this . . . hence Jos's example of the White Storks - sure we'd have done the same. In that particular case.

A few points which have perhaps been left unanswered. Cheers for response to previous post.


To clarify; I think hardly anyone on this thread has said they wouldn't kill an injured animal. Where appropriate. Facing up to responibilities etc - sure, got to be done. I've done so, no problems. What we're exploring here is the appropriateness and some of the issues around. It ain't quite as Black and White as some would say it is.

'Vitriol that KN has attracted'- think this is maybe too strong a word to describe the healthy debating style . . . Certainly a bit of an argument started, and got a leetle personal. Both sides. . . No martyrs please . . . ;)

Two main issues on this thread.
a) Euthanasia as a principle, its practicalities and different methods etc
Personally don't have such big issues with this. If dealt with conscientiously, properly, and rationally thought out. Used where appropriate. I have attempted to outline some alternatives which I believe have some validity in some circumstances.

b) Manner in which euthanasia was suggested in this case. Have a little more of an issue with that. No-one was offended in this case. But next time . . . I don't believe that the cool scientific approach to euthanasia is the be-all and end-all.

1) It is maybe being implied that those people wishing NOT to despatch an injured animal/bird are being emotive. To be honest I think the arguments from the pro- euthanasia lobby are a little more emotive . . . all that cruelty stuff . . .

2) Actually, whilst the ethical/moral issues have been summarily dismissed as unimportant, I think that this is maybe a little premature. We are talking about humans rescuing birds. Humans euthanaising birds. It's about humans. And a lot of humans have feelings which can't just be brushed under the carpet and ignored. Cold science does need a balance. . . (Feel I am not explaining this well. You get the drift though? . . )

3) The unnecessary suffering issue. Millions of higher order animals die every day. Some violently, relatively quickly, many slow and lingering. How painful? How stressful?
Firstly, not many things in life are totally black and white, totally clear cut. Nothing in life is simple.

4) As workers in the countryside/conservation are probably replying in the most practical strightforward manner on this thread, it should be borne in mind that probably less than 3% of the UK population is now directly involved in this farming/outdoor work. Hence my reservations in stating the euthanasia methods as an almost instant second port of call; Let's be realistic here.

(Sample size of 1; I asked my girlfriend if she would be able to 'do the deed' as described. No way she said, it would make her ill. Assist? I asked. No way again. Many others wouldn't either though . . .(Maybe one end of the fluffy bunny hugging spectrum admittedly ;) ).)

[dantheman]

Now it's about time for this thread to develop in a new, possibly sticky one, about what to do if anyone finds an injured bird.

That's partly my worry . . . ;) (Actually maybe not such a problem as KN points out.)

If it can be guaranteed that the bird in the bag method will be successfully carried out by amateur first timers 10 times out of 10, that there will be no repercussions, emotional, legal etc etc.

That mistakes won't be made on diagnosis etc etc

then fine. I actually think there is no problem with it or similar as an option, if placed as advice in a relevent time frame and full explanation of the possible consequences.

Not as first response to a plea for assistance. :t:

[dantheman]

Waiting for a call back. And waiting. And the animal slipping away may well be one option. After all, how do we know how they feel pain, the sense of their own life going or depression. Maybe they have mechanisms which inure themselves from stress/pain as they become weaker?? I was under the impression they do . . . .

well that's quite a lot of wishful thinking - what if you're wrong? And it also borders on illegality by allowing an animal to suffer.

I note you don't actually disagree (for once? lol ;)) Be nice to know what the facts are on this one still. One of the cruxes this hinges on. Any scientific papers/written and accepted information out there that we can use to make a reasoned and objective decision on??

I 'imagine' that there it may well be an evolutionary adaption to quietly dying (with dignity?) quietly . . . all depends on the circumstances and injuries again of course.

[pygmy falcon]

Some information for people living in the US. Granted, this is from the Colorado Division of Wildlife page and regs, but every other state has similar, if not more strict laws. I have no idea about law in other parts of the world, but here in the US, even if the bird/other animal is very injured, you can't take it's outcome into your own hands...not legally, anyway.

"All birds of prey are strictly protected by federal law. It is a violation to possess, injure, kill, harass or collect them or their young, or to possess any feathers, eggs or body parts without a permit. If you find an injured raptor, don’t attempt to capture it yourself. Contact your local Division of Wildlife office. Injured birds will be collected and taken to a licensed wildlife rehabilitator."

It also says:

"Despite the fact that wildlife is best left alone, there are instances when people pick up injured or orphaned wildlife. If this does occur, call the Division of Wildlife. It is illegal to attempt to rehabilitate injured or orphaned wildlife without state and federal permits, and the Division of Wildlife will put you in touch with a licensed wildlife rehabilitator in your area."

And:
"Special permits are required to possess wildlife in the State of Colorado, and are available only to trained rehabilitators, scientific collections, zoos and under other special circumstances. It is not legal to keep wildlife as pets. If you find wildlife, leave it alone and consider yourself lucky to get a close view. If wildlife appears sick or injured, leave it alone, keep your pets away, and call your local animal control agency or the Division of Wildlife. Special permits are required to possess wildlife in the State of Colorado, and are available only to trained rehabilitators, scientific collections, zoos and under other special circumstances. It is not legal to keep wildlife as pets. If you find wildlife, leave it alone and consider yourself lucky to get a close view. If wildlife appears sick or injured, leave it alone, keep your pets away, and call your local animal control agency or the Division of Wildlife."

And straight from the regs, themselves:
#1301 - POSSESSION
A. No person shall, at any time, have in possession or under control any wildlife caught, taken or killed outside of this state which were caught, taken or killed at a time, in a manner, or for a purpose, or in any other respect which is prohibited by the laws of the state, territory or country in which the same were caught, taken or killed; or which were shipped out of said state, territory or country in violation of the laws thereof.

#1400 – POSSESSION
A. Any person may provide immediate transportation for sick, injured, or orphaned wildlife to the Division, a licensed wildlife rehabilitator, DVM (licensed Doctor of Veterinary Medicine), animal control agency or local law enforcement agency for the purposes of obtaining animal care or treatment if instructed to do so by the individual or agency to whom the wildlife will be delivered.
B. Nothing in this chapter shall be construed as authorizing the practice of veterinary medicine as defined in section 12-64-103 (10) and regulated by the provisions of article 64 of Title 12 C.R.S.
C. Wildlife possessed under authority of this chapter remain the property of the State and nothing herein shall be construed as granting any ownership interest to a licensed Wildlife Rehabilitator, Provisional Wildlife Rehabilitator or any other person. As owner, the State has the right to require a rehabilitator or any other person having possession of wildlife under authority of this chapter to immediately surrender possession of such wildlife to the Division in the case of violation of these regulations or other applicable law or whenever the Director or his designee determines it is necessary or appropriate for the welfare of such wildlife or for the protection of wildlife resources or the public.

F. Any DVM, licensed wildlife rehabilitator, full time employee of the Division, Peace Officer as defined in 18-1-901(3)(1) (1986), Animal Control Officer or anyone else authorized by the Division may euthanize injured wildlife when such person determines that no other reasonable action would be practical, humane or effective for the rehabilitation of the wildlife.

[saluki]

Some information for people living in the US. Granted, this is from the Colorado Division of Wildlife page and regs, but every other state has similar, if not more strict laws. I have no idea about law in other parts of the world, but here in the US, even if the bird/other animal is very injured, you can't take it's outcome into your own hands...not legally, anyway.

"All birds of prey are strictly protected by federal law. It is a violation to possess, injure, kill, harass or collect them or their young, or to possess any feathers, eggs or body parts without a permit. If you find an injured raptor, don’t attempt to capture it yourself. Contact your local Division of Wildlife office. Injured birds will be collected and taken to a licensed wildlife rehabilitator."

It also says:

"Despite the fact that wildlife is best left alone, there are instances when people pick up injured or orphaned wildlife. If this does occur, call the Division of Wildlife. It is illegal to attempt to rehabilitate injured or orphaned wildlife without state and federal permits, and the Division of Wildlife will put you in touch with a licensed wildlife rehabilitator in your area."

And:
"Special permits are required to possess wildlife in the State of Colorado, and are available only to trained rehabilitators, scientific collections, zoos and under other special circumstances. It is not legal to keep wildlife as pets. If you find wildlife, leave it alone and consider yourself lucky to get a close view. If wildlife appears sick or injured, leave it alone, keep your pets away, and call your local animal control agency or the Division of Wildlife. Special permits are required to possess wildlife in the State of Colorado, and are available only to trained rehabilitators, scientific collections, zoos and under other special circumstances. It is not legal to keep wildlife as pets. If you find wildlife, leave it alone and consider yourself lucky to get a close view. If wildlife appears sick or injured, leave it alone, keep your pets away, and call your local animal control agency or the Division of Wildlife."

And straight from the regs, themselves:
#1301 - POSSESSION
A. No person shall, at any time, have in possession or under control any wildlife caught, taken or killed outside of this state which were caught, taken or killed at a time, in a manner, or for a purpose, or in any other respect which is prohibited by the laws of the state, territory or country in which the same were caught, taken or killed; or which were shipped out of said state, territory or country in violation of the laws thereof.

#1400 – POSSESSION
A. Any person may provide immediate transportation for sick, injured, or orphaned wildlife to the Division, a licensed wildlife rehabilitator, DVM (licensed Doctor of Veterinary Medicine), animal control agency or local law enforcement agency for the purposes of obtaining animal care or treatment if instructed to do so by the individual or agency to whom the wildlife will be delivered.
B. Nothing in this chapter shall be construed as authorizing the practice of veterinary medicine as defined in section 12-64-103 (10) and regulated by the provisions of article 64 of Title 12 C.R.S.
C. Wildlife possessed under authority of this chapter remain the property of the State and nothing herein shall be construed as granting any ownership interest to a licensed Wildlife Rehabilitator, Provisional Wildlife Rehabilitator or any other person. As owner, the State has the right to require a rehabilitator or any other person having possession of wildlife under authority of this chapter to immediately surrender possession of such wildlife to the Division in the case of violation of these regulations or other applicable law or whenever the Director or his designee determines it is necessary or appropriate for the welfare of such wildlife or for the protection of wildlife resources or the public.

F. Any DVM, licensed wildlife rehabilitator, full time employee of the Division, Peace Officer as defined in 18-1-901(3)(1) (1986), Animal Control Officer or anyone else authorized by the Division may euthanize injured wildlife when such person determines that no other reasonable action would be practical, humane or effective for the rehabilitation of the wildlife.

Are you suggesting that someone in the US who finds a hare with both back legs crushed and mangled by a car, a rabbit with a maggot-infested slug hole in it's side, or a bird - still alive, but with half it's skull missing - should wait until someone authorised to euthanize the poor creature comes along?

Hopefully, I'm wrong - I find it difficult to believe anyone involved in animal welfare would recommend such action.

Jonathan

[deborah4]

I would have gone down the path of trying to saving it, though completely agree it will never fly again and a captive home is going to be its end.

I'm very relieved to hear you say that (but wouldn't have expected anything less of you) and agree, as I pointed in a much earlier post, it's likely to end up in captivity anyway if it survived.

I just want to reiterate, that no one on this thread has advocated not doing anything to help injured wildlife but as I previously said, I think we all probably bring different value judgments as to when we deem it necessary to dispatch an injured bird - with the exception of course to the scenario Jonathan has outlined below ... and only then does this discussion regarding methods of euthanasia becomes a crucial issue for me

Are you suggesting that someone in the US who finds a hare with both back legs crushed and mangled by a car, a rabbit with a maggot-infested slug hole in it's side, or a bird - still alive, but with half it's skull missing - should wait until someone authorised to euthanize the poor creature comes along?

Hopefully, I'm wrong - I find it difficult to believe anyone involved in animal welfare would recommend such action.

Jonathon, I really don't think anyone would advocate this, regardless of their 'experience' or 'inexperience'

This is yet again another scenario - to which I responded in post 16.

This is a complex issue, and generalisations I don't think help as every situation/scenerio needs to be judged on it's own merits.

[KnockerNorton]

I note you don't actually disagree (for once? lol ;)) Be nice to know what the facts are on this one still. One of the cruxes this hinges on. Any scientific papers/written and accepted information out there that we can use to make a reasoned and objective decision on??

I 'imagine' that there it may well be an evolutionary adaption to quietly dying (with dignity?) quietly . . . all depends on the circumstances and injuries again of course.

I think you're missing the point. Things don't "quietly die with dignity", they die because they either starve, get dehydrated, or stress overwhelmes them, or their injury prevents them being alive by causing organ failure. That's how people die too, but they're full of palliative drugs at the time and don't feel it.

None of those scanarios are quick or nice (birds are vertebrates like us, and we know a lot about birds and stress), and all take time. Sometimes days.

Until we can communicate with birds or any other animal, we cannot know what they feel, even dogs or chimpamzees. But we can make good inferences:

Pain in Birds (can't vouch for this, don't know the journal)


Author: Gentle, M.J.

Source: Animal Welfare, Volume 1, Number 4, November 1992 , pp. 235-247(13)

Publisher: Universities Federation for Animal Welfare

Abstract:

For the detection and assessment of pain in animals both behavioural and physiological measurements are necessary. Cutaneous receptors which responded to noxious stimulation (nociceptors) have been identified in birds and have been characterized physiologically in the chicken. Following cutaneous nociceptive stimulation the chicken showed cardiovascular and characteristic behavioural changes consistent with those seen in mammals and indicative of pain perception. Following major burn trauma (partial beak amputation) there was behavioural and electrophysiological evidence for a pain-free period lasting several hours. This pain-free period was followed by pain-related behaviour with both anatomical and physiological evidence for long-term chronic pain.

While pain has been assessed following nociceptive stimulation and following trauma the painful consequences of chronic disease have not been investigated. Spontaneous degenerative joint disease is widespread in certain strains of intensively reared poultry, and while we do not know what effect joint degeneration has on the joint capsule receptors, recent work has shown in the joint capsule of birds there are similar receptor types to those found in mammals and it seems likely that joint degeneration in birds may be accompanied by painful sensations.

Experimental work has clearly detected painful conditions in birds but the alleviation of pain with analgesic drugs is not possible at present because analgesic agents have not been systematically investigated in birds.

Comparing pain in birds with mammals it is clear that, with regard to the anatomical, physiological and behavioural parameters measured, there are no major differences and therefore the ethical considerations normally afforded to mammals should be extended to birds.

But even in fish, which are more primitive (and a good journal):

The evidence for pain in fish: the use of morphine as an analgesic .
Applied Animal Behaviour Science , Volume 83 , Issue 2 , Page 153
L . Sneddon

This paper discusses the evidence for pain perception in fish and presents new data on morphine analgesia in fish. Recent anatomical and electrophysiological studies have demonstrated that fish are capable of nociception, the simple detection of a noxious, potentially painful stimulus and the reflex response to this. To prove pain perception, it must be demonstrated that an animal’s behaviour is adversely affected by a potentially painful event and this must not be a reflex response. The present study examined the acute effects of administering a noxious chemical to the lips of rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss) to assess what changes occurred in behaviour and physiology. There was no difference in swimming activity or use of cover when comparing the noxiously stimulated individuals with the controls. The noxiously treated individuals performed anomalous behaviours where they rocked on either pectoral fin from side to side and they also rubbed their lips into the gravel and against the sides of the tank. Opercular beat rate (gill or ventilation rate) increased almost double fold after the noxious treatment whereas the controls only showed a 30% increase. Administering morphine significantly reduced the pain-related behaviours and opercular beat rate and thus morphine appears to act as an analgesic in the rainbow trout. It is concluded that these pain-related behaviours are not simple reflexes and therefore there is the potential for pain perception in fish.

[KnockerNorton]

I just want to reiterate, that no one on this thread has advocated not doing anything to help injured wildlife

dantheman thinks they should be left in a hedgerow as his "preferred option...if appropriate". I can't think of any circumstances when this would be appropriate though.

[KnockerNorton]

Good that we are looking at this in a rational manner.

The extra point 6) on my original post above should have been; Action taken will totally depend on the species concerned, nature and extent of injuries, and location which the bird is found/owner lives. However, I guess we are generally all in agreement on this . . . hence Jos's example of the White Storks - sure we'd have done the same. In that particular case.

A few points which have perhaps been left unanswered. Cheers for response to previous post.


To clarify; I think hardly anyone on this thread has said they wouldn't kill an injured animal. Where appropriate. Facing up to responibilities etc - sure, got to be done. I've done so, no problems. What we're exploring here is the appropriateness and some of the issues around. It ain't quite as Black and White as some would say it is.

'Vitriol that KN has attracted'- think this is maybe too strong a word to describe the healthy debating style . . . Certainly a bit of an argument started, and got a leetle personal. Both sides. . . No martyrs please . . . ;)

Two main issues on this thread.
a) Euthanasia as a principle, its practicalities and different methods etc
Personally don't have such big issues with this. If dealt with conscientiously, properly, and rationally thought out. Used where appropriate. I have attempted to outline some alternatives which I believe have some validity in some circumstances.

b) Manner in which euthanasia was suggested in this case. Have a little more of an issue with that. No-one was offended in this case. But next time . . . I don't believe that the cool scientific approach to euthanasia is the be-all and end-all.

1) It is maybe being implied that those people wishing NOT to despatch an injured animal/bird are being emotive. To be honest I think the arguments from the pro- euthanasia lobby are a little more emotive . . . all that cruelty stuff . . .

2) Actually, whilst the ethical/moral issues have been summarily dismissed as unimportant, I think that this is maybe a little premature. We are talking about humans rescuing birds. Humans euthanaising birds. It's about humans. And a lot of humans have feelings which can't just be brushed under the carpet and ignored. Cold science does need a balance. . . (Feel I am not explaining this well. You get the drift though? . . )

3) The unnecessary suffering issue. Millions of higher order animals die every day. Some violently, relatively quickly, many slow and lingering. How painful? How stressful?
Firstly, not many things in life are totally black and white, totally clear cut. Nothing in life is simple.

4) As workers in the countryside/conservation are probably replying in the most practical strightforward manner on this thread, it should be borne in mind that probably less than 3% of the UK population is now directly involved in this farming/outdoor work. Hence my reservations in stating the euthanasia methods as an almost instant second port of call; Let's be realistic here.

(Sample size of 1; I asked my girlfriend if she would be able to 'do the deed' as described. No way she said, it would make her ill. Assist? I asked. No way again. Many others wouldn't either though . . .(Maybe one end of the fluffy bunny hugging spectrum admittedly ;) ).)

To be honest, i think that all of that is highly personal to you and, as such, not really capable of being extrapolated, and again takes things into the emotive side of things which is where we've just left. The ethics are fairly straightforward - 'something should generally be done'. Nobody is forcing anyone to kill anything, and as such nobody is handing out baseball bats. It is purely advice, and advice can be taken or not taken. What you *think* of the advice in terms of your moral compass is not really the point, as that tiptoes towards doctrine. The morality or ethics of killing are not at question here, it's what the best course of action that we're discussing. Killing is one option, and the techniques and circumstances are being discussed. If your girlfriend could do it or not isn't the issue, as she could take it someone who could (a vet, a farmer, a neighbour, Monty Panesar)

[pygmy falcon]

Are you suggesting that someone in the US who finds a hare with both back legs crushed and mangled by a car, a rabbit with a maggot-infested slug hole in it's side, or a bird - still alive, but with half it's skull missing - should wait until someone authorised to euthanize the poor creature comes along?

Hopefully, I'm wrong - I find it difficult to believe anyone involved in animal welfare would recommend such action.

Jonathan


I don't think that I'm suggesting anything here. I'm putting a copy of the regulations in here, because the topic of 'is it legal?' came up. These aren't my words at all. If it were up to me, and this is a personal decision, I'm not going to try to convince anyone else, I would most likely take care of it myself. The only times that I wouldn't are when my safety and own health would be compromised.

On that note, it is very clear that everyone that has contributed to this thread has varying opinions of what is the right thing to do in a situation. I do apologize to most people here, as there were things that I said in previous posts that would have been more appropriate in a PM. |:$|

[deborah4]

The extra point 6) on my original post above should have been; Action taken will totally depend on the species concerned, ... [/U]



At the risk of further alienation, I think this raises a whole new set of uncomfortable areas:

The concept of species is essentially a human one and thus could led us into another fuzzy maze on whether a bird/animal should be dispatched or not according to what value we put on it as a species rather than the degree of pain or suffering we perceive it to be in. It's not a value judgment I would want to apply to be honest, in the context of deciding whether I should try and save a bird/animal with an injury that would be non-life threatening with the right medical/rehab care.

Obviously, if we are talking about, again, the scenario Jonathan laid out earlier, then ALL birds/animals must be regarded the same way if euthanasia is the ONLY option which it would be in that situation.

But if we personally are arguing for self-committed euthanasia in a situation where a bird or animal could survive with assistance but it must be destroyed because it has the misfortune to be a Corvid and not a Stork or a Red Squirrel rather than a Grey, or a Pigeon rather than a Kestrel, we are introducing a whole new set of complex issues into the debate as to what we individually regard as NECESSARY euthanasia. A situation that, for many people, ignorant either of the Law or of conservation, or, despite being aware, are unable to euthanise a creature on that account themselves whereas others would have no compunction whatsoever in choosing to save the Stork but not the Squirrel. Thus, we have a new set of tangents where any argument for euthanasia on the grounds of suffering flounders according to the concept of species and not on the grounds of suffering.

I could not but help aid any animal, including 'unwanted' ones, if it were suffering a relatively minor injury that left in the wild would not survive ... that knowledge is made all the harder by recognising that it would be dispatched with anyway by the RSPCA or Vet, simply because it would be (i) illegal to release them back into the wild and (ii) impossible to keep every injured 'unwanted' animal in captive care.

Thousands of healthy unwanted cats and dogs are euthanised every year, simply because they are unwanted and homes can not be found - likewise, with wild species that are taken to vets/RSPCA etc but are, as a species, deemed contrary to the objectives of conservation etc are destroyed despite their prognosis.

If the scenario of an injured creature falls into the latter, then we must be clear exactly what our position is, as it directly impacts on the advice we give to others regarding the threshold of 'necessary' euthanasia' and where we would deem it justified to destroy an animal/bird rather than try and help it - because it certainly couldn't be on the grounds of compassion I don't think for that individual creature.

I'm not sure we can argue it both ways, so .... (other than Jonathan's case scenerio) .... some people would save a Kestrel, despite captivity being the end result .... some wouldn't ..... some people would try to save a Pigeon ... some wouldn't .... some would try to save a Squirrel ... some wouldn't ....etc

[Jos Stratford]

At the risk of further alienation, I think this raises a whole new set of uncomfortable areas:

The concept of species is essentially a human one and thus could led us into another fuzzy maze on whether a bird/animal should be dispatched or not according to what value we put on it as a species rather than the degree of pain or suffering we perceive it to be in.

There is something more to a species than a hazy human concept, a fundamental that relates not to the 'value' we place on it, but to the likelyhood of being able to successfully treat/save the bird, etc. For example, the stork chicks I referred to were a mere two days old when I took them into care - but even at that stage, provided they survived internal injuries and shock-related issues, I knew I would be able to not only stitch the wounds, but also feed the birds and hack them back to the wild, even if I had to do it all myself. Clearly I took this into consideration when taking the decision to undertake an attempt to save them. There are other species where a comparable injury at a similar age would leave the chicks with zero chance, notably small insectivores, etc.

(Naturally also, I confess the fact they were birds of high personal value too - not only White Storks, but the White Storks in my garden! I have no illusion that this didn't influence me too, but it was certainly not an overriding one)

[deborah4]

... there are other species where a comparble injury at a similar age would leave the chicks with zero chance, notably small insectivores, etc.



Again, slightly different from the 'necessity' criteria I outlined above referring to conservation ethics, but point taken. Although how many people, in the absence of professional advice or, if not, their own pragmatic experience, could actually make that assessment in the heat of the moment, I suspect is relatively few. In fact, I'd guess most don't which is why, as KN has often pointed out, so many fail in their quest to self-rescue injured birds, to the point of being fit for release.

So what's the advice, I think Dan's right, it's seemingly impossible to construct anything like a protocol that could be used to advise people on what to do in many situations .. (other than get professional/expert help ;))

... Euthanise, if you don't have the experience to help? Euthanise, if you do, but feel you shouldn't on the grounds of conservation? Euthanise, only if you have the experience to assess the degree of injury? Euthanise, just in case it's as serious as one thinks? ... Don't in case it's not? Don't euthanise because you believe a particular species should be kept in captivity even if it means it's survival ... Do if you don't believe that ...

I'm still not convinced it's responsible to talk about the methods of euthanasia on an open forum unless we can also make it clear somehow when it is and it isn't ok to carry it out other than in a situation exists as Jonathan outlines.

[JamesA]

Interesting thread. Enjoyed following it, for various reasons at various times. Not sure why I'm replying.

I'm still not convinced it's responsible to talk about the methods of euthanasia on an open forum unless we can also make it clear somehow when it is and it isn't ok to carry it out other than in a situation exists as Jonathan outlines.

How truly irresponsible is it though?

Ok, we're on an open forum, yes, but we're buried within one thread in a subforum on a specialist interest website thats just one of millions of websites out there. You have to search to find this. If you're worried about the "wrong" people reading this advice, going out there and bashing kessies in with bats then consider that the kind of people likely to do that would go and do it anyway - regardless of having read a post on BirdForum telling them how to do it. Its not a difficult concept, I guess. Bat vs bird; bat wins.

Considering that its such an emotive and personal subject to the vast majority of people you can never make it clear when its right or wrong to euthanise a bird. In some cases though euthanasia IS the "right" thing to do, and surely its better for all concerned that people know how to do it properly than not know at all and either botch it or leave the thing to die of its own accord three fairly crap days later? Knowing how to do it will have no effect on the average person's willingness or ability to do it, it'll just ensure that if a person has the misfortune to have to do it they do it quickly, effectively and painlessly. In a relative sort of way.

[baccalynnwv]

Well... This has gotten interesting. LOL

I know this thread will get lost in the midst of all the others, but to answer a couple questions:

I found the kestrel walking in the middle of the road in a very rural area. It was probably several minutes since anyone had driven by. I imagine he was probably hit by a car, but the Kestrel was not acting stunned.

I would not have picked him up had I not very clearly seen his wing. I was aware that there were some raptor centers in the state so I thought it might be worth a try. Based on knowing my neighbors, I knew if anyone else happened a long to find him - the bird probably would have had a very sad life.

He was eating, drinking, walking, and even climbing the cage I had him in. He also managed to arrange his wing so that it seemed to be in a more correct position, just dragging a little.

I had him for several hours before I received a call back. I met a transporter at 10:30 the next morning. I believe they were licensed rehab. for raptors.

I left for vacation that same night and haven't called to check on the bird. I will try to do that soon to see what happened to him.

Have to get back to my kids now.

Thanks,

Becca

[danehower]

Considering that its such an emotive and personal subject to the vast majority of people you can never make it clear when its right or wrong to euthanise a bird. In some cases though euthanasia IS the "right" thing to do, and surely its better for all concerned that people know how to do it properly than not know at all and either botch it or leave the thing to die of its own accord three fairly crap days later? Knowing how to do it will have no effect on the average person's willingness or ability to do it, it'll just ensure that if a person has the misfortune to have to do it they do it quickly, effectively and painlessly. In a relative sort of way.

When it is right or wrong to euthanize the bird is the question! And in the case of the OP - the question is moot as is is most likely illegal to do so by state law. Many posters on this thread claim to have the superior wisdom to make such decisions for the good of the bird. I am completely unconvinced. Personally I believe the subject has become academic to the point of foolishness. Killing an injured bird quickly should be a bit of a no-brainer.

[KnockerNorton]

When it is right or wrong to euthanize the bird is the question! .

People are capable of making decisions, and often circumstances make them for them. You do it if and when, on balance, the bird will suffer less that way when its future prospects are taken into account. That's all there is to it. It is the route of less suffering. Everything else is detail.

Injuries that enable a bird to be picked up generally fall into 2 categories: broken wings and stunning from a collision. Both are easy to diagnose - the bird is dazed or unconscious, or it has a dragging wing and can run but not fly. Any other injury either results in the bird coping (broken leg) or being too serious to do anything about (broken neck, gunshot into the organs). Action for a stunned bird is simple - put it somewhere warm and dark until it has either recovered or died. If it comes round but has not full recovered after 2 days, it has damaged it's brain/vision and needs to be destroyed.

Broken wings are difficult to treat, and full recovery is not common. If the break is anything other than a simple break of the humerus or radius/ulna (long 'arm bones'), it wont heal correctly and wont ever fly again. Many injuries tend to be to the carpals and fall into this category, as the joint ossifies and the delicate manoevring necessary for flight is impossible. So - simple break: treat it. Complex/compound break: it wont recover.

With a bird that wont recover, opportunities for housing them permanantly in an manner consistent with an acceptable quality of life are rare, and depend on species. Many places will take raptors, gamebirds will cope well, but there are not many homes for crippled dunnocks, and a crippled swift isn't going to have much fun ever again. We have all seen private individuals who do their best, but end up with a garden full of sorry cripples in tiny aviaries, in poor conditions. That isn't acceptable to me. So in the majority of circumstances I kill them by whacking the head or pulling the neck or compression (depending on species). You can make the assessment necessary to decide in a few minutes.

That is my personal protocol, which is consistent with the law, and consistent with my morality and ethical code. Others may differ, that is their perogative as long as that also complies with the law. If anyone asks my advice on what to do, i basically tell them what I've just written here.

fledglings and diseased birds are a different kettle of fish. I never kill a bird that has the capacity for future flight, because then it still has a chance of a full life.

[lulie]

I worked in an animal rehabilitation center in africa that was in a conservation area. We were licsenced to rehab all catagories of bird and animal from sparrows to lions.
In my experience most raptors with damaged wings or legs had very low chance of release. We did a lot of follow up work to our releases and found there was a lot of mortality in the first week.
Raptors are like athletes they must be in peak condition. They have a hard life, even then any slight defect can mean the difference between life and death. The reality is that re released raptors often die slowly of starvation.

The other choice of keeping a bird for 'education' has to be seriously thought about. A cage full of sorry looking owls or buzzards is destressing. Believe me i cared for many raptors that had a life of sitting in cages being gawked at by tourists. The only birds that really left an impression on the minds of these tourists getting their ' educational' fix was the yellow billed kite that was an ex falconers bird and liked to sit on your head and a hand reared bataleur that had been confiscated from its owner. The wild birds just made you sad.

i personally regularly euthanised many birds and mostly by my own hands, breaking necks; This is very quick and is probably no more distressing to the bird than the process of fitting the eqipment to gas them with; though i have used this method on a vulture. To me it was far less distressing to do this and i had far less guilt than for the birds i thought we had a chance with, saved, only to find they couldn't be re released and that i had ultimatly condemed to sit in a cage for life. Anyone who has watched a one winged eagle hoplessly unfold its wing in a stong breeze bend down on its legs and launch its self just to crash to the ground will see that 'education' does not justify the keeping of wild birds. There are plenty of hand raised raptors that suit this purpose better.

Ethics are a very sticky subject and any conservation minded rehaber will agree. In the rehab where i worked I daily killed mice and guinea pigs for the animals and birds in my care and we also fed them live. No mammal or bird was released unless it could catch its own prey in a semi open area. This was the only way to see if the mammal or bird was able to hunt itself or if they had become too used to us feeding. Rehabbing should be a means to assess an animals chances to be returned to the wild. If its possible, treat the thing, if not don't. I guess rehabbing form a conservation perspective is all about understanding wild populations and dynamics so that re release can be assessed on a vaguely scientific basis. Where as the other type of rehabbing is about rescuing everything and giving it all a home,

There are just a couple of things I would like to point out that are to do with the stress wild birds feel.

1) if you do find an injured bird, don't put it in a budgy cage. If thats all you have, cover it with a towel and leave it alone, don't keep looking at it. The kestrel that started this thread was said to be climbing the cage, well its not a parot, it was climbing to get away from the towering human looming over it. I know its fasinating to see these birds up close but you should detatch any personal wants and think of the bird.

2)For all those who believe that it is more humaine to take a bird to a vet to euthanize then I would like to say that being stuck in a box for hours handled several times then a car journey, a sit in a vets (that even our pets smell a problem with) and finally another examination by a vet before they humainly inject the bird is all far more distressing for the bird than making a decission insitu and dispatching the bird there and then by hand. I do sympathise that not everyone has the courage or are able to make this dicision though. Its just what i would do, and did do befor becoming a rehabber. The vet is humaine but you must think of the time in captivaty as being a stress factor.

These thoughts are entirely my own and I know many will disagree but thats human nature, is there anything humans can agree on??

lulie

[deborah4]

Perhaps the point a lot of people seem to be missing is that it's not the hows of euthanasia necessarily some of us have concerns about but the diagnostic ability of the person that finds the bird.

The few people that have contributed on here who come across injured birds would know immediately what the extent of injury is on a bird that appears to be actively feeding etc (and thus, would euthanise the injured bird) are not representative of the large majority of people that are likely to come across injured birds - most of which would probably attempt, in their ignorance, to put 'life-saving' first on the agenda. If a Vet is reachable by person/phone then for me that would be the preferred choice even if the outcome is that the bird is dispatched by the vet or by me at the Vets instructions. He/she has the experience to diagnose accurately the extent of injury and the risk of euthanising a bird that does have a chance of recovery is greatly reduced. As lulie says, covering it and keeping quiet/away while someone seeks that advice is probably the best option. Too little knowledge is sometimes a dangerous thing and I believe it's sometimes better to error in favor of the bird being saved rather than against it if people aren't sure what to do.

Where ever I'm travelling or birding locally, I always make sure I have numbers on my mobile phone of rescue/rspca/vets etc to help ensure I can contact someone that can advise me, even if it's just to advise me that I should, in a particular situation, having described the condition of the bird, either dispatch it or what I should do for it in the interim period until it can be brought to a vet or picked up. This has worked for me time and time again over the years.

Having said that, there are numerous fatal injuries to a bird that are not even immediately apparent - internal injuries for example - far worse for people who think they can assess injury, eg. wing, leg, attempt to treat it themselves, then the bird dies a week later from internal injuries in a great deal of stress and pain when a Vet would have euthanised the bird immediately following more extensive examination.

[timwootton]

The few people that have contributed on here who come across injured birds would know immediately what the extent of injury is on a bird that appears to be actively feeding etc (and thus, would euthanise the injured bird) are not representative of the large majority of people that are likely to come across injured birds -
And this is precicely the point.
We are all contributors to BirdForum for various reasons - for many it is an excellent source of information and advice (just check out the Bird Identification threads or the Photo-critique area, for instance). Therefore, although we are discussing perhaps the most unpalattable aspect of our hobby, it is perhaps one of the most important and really, to my mind, makes the question of 'Willow Warbler or Chiffchaff' pale into total insignificance.
I think there has been a huge amount of excellent advice from many contributors in this thread and, maybe it's even worthwhile posting various scenario injuries so that a learned panel can discuss, a) the prognosis of injury, b) the likelyhood of recovery and c) how to deal with the situation should one come across it. After all, it's no different from asking 'Marsh or Willow' or 'What f-stop to use' - people will contribute depending on knowledge and experience.
And the 'but it's a bird's life at stake . . .' doesn't rub with me I'm afraid. Over the past week I have had a professional animal welfare officer ask me 'what's that?' (as in, 'what species') as I made a measured drawing of a common buzzard and then another ask if I could rehab a juv short-eared owl that's 'just lost a few primaries'. It had been hit by an aircraft and had lost its entire carpal joint.
It's in the fridge as I type, ready for drawing.

[deborah4]

So perhaps we could start with:

1.) How to treat a minor wing injury
2.) How to treat a minor leg injury
3.) How to diagnose internal injury
4.) What equipment I will need for any of the above and what would be the feeding regime
5.) How to take the bird's vital obs

in the event, I am living in the sticks and have no equipment or access to veterinary advice but want to ensure euthanasia is the last resort

Incidently all birds taken to licensed rehabs or picked up by welfare officers are first checked by a qualified vet if injury is suspected, who then prescribes correct treatment - most welfare officers etc are not qualified in diagnostics and all licensed rehabs have a vet pool.

IMO I think its very different from asking advice over the internet about an ID or Photo technique - the difference is between the life of the bird and a possible tick/good pic - I tend to view these things differently.



I really do believe it's not a good idea giving medical advice on matters that, yes, could be life threatening, to amateurs, unless you are in a position to check an individual bird out yourself or at least know the full details of the bird's history with the rescuer - giving general advice when a specific bird is not in mind may well lead to some very quacky medicine by those who read it!

I think there are 'cyber' vets who run help forums, perhaps those could be looked into - if someone has access to the internet, which they would if they've come on here asking for help, wouldn't it be better to be directed to Vets who give can give advice online?

[KnockerNorton]

Perhaps the point a lot of people seem to be missing is that it's not the hows of euthanasia necessarily some of us have concerns about but the diagnostic ability of the person that finds the bird.


again, I think you underestimate people. My last post is, in effect, a very simple decision tree whereby a or b is the situation at each stage. In effect, anything with any physical injury hasn't got much chance. Stunned birds have. That makes things very simple. As several have said, birds with broken bones bad enough to allow capture don't survive to be fit for release very often. Yes, a few birds that could have made it could be killed, but they would have died anyway without being picked up, and in the vast majority it would be the correct option anyway.

lulie raised a good point: "To me it was far less distressing to do this and i had far less guilt than for the birds i thought we had a chance with, saved, only to find they couldn't be re released and that i had ultimatly condemed to sit in a cage for life."

the longer you have a bird, the harder it is to bring yourself to kill it, even if this is the only option. You cannot help yourself getting attached. After saving these cases only to find they were 'hopeless', why couldn't lulie kill them then, rather than "condemn them to sit in a cage for life"? Because the longer you have it, the harder it gets to do it. You don't want to waste the effort, you get attached to bird after it has shown its 'character', and ultimately people bother becasue they care about birds so it's hard to be objective when you've nurtured one for a bit (even if it was pointless).

Hence it is best to make a quick assessment, and take quick action. You can't win them all, and with physical injury you wont most of the time. But without you they'd have had a lingering death anyway. Stunned, diseased and fledglings, you CAN have a good chance of winning them.

[deborah4]

Euthanasia is a 'treatment' albeit a last resort one, I'd still recommend people do the following - especially with regard to raptors if they are not sure about the extent of injury - I don't think I'm underestimating people, most people do not know how to handle BoP correctly let alone diagnose it, then treat it for injury - it's not difficult to kill a bird but it may be very difficult to judge when that's necessary

For those not contributing to the thread but following it with interest and who have no experience ...



If You Find An Injured ADULT Bird

STEP 1: Try to assess the source of the injury.

STEP 2: Cover a bird that has hit a window with a kitchen colander or a box with holes in it, and give it time to recover.

STEP 3: Remove the box or colander when the bird has regained its senses, and let it fly away.

STEP 4: Gently pick up a bird whose injuries are more serious and put it into a box or paper bag lined with soft tissues. Poke holes in the lid of the box or bag so that the bird can breathe.

If the bird is a raptor (bird of prey – hawk, eagle, falcon, etc.), do not attempt to handle and call a professional for help. You can be severely injured by the bird’s talons and beak, or injure these larger birds even further, if not handled properly.

STEP 5: Do not give food or water to the injured bird.

STEP 6: Call for professional help. Do not try to treat an injured bird yourself unless you are a veterinarian or are licensed to handle wild birds. Follow the vet’s advice.

If you do not have a local wildlife rehabilitation organization, call your local RSPB, Audubon chapter, Humane Society, or a local veterinarian to put you in touch with licensed rehabilitators in your area.

[KnockerNorton]

So perhaps we could start with:

1.) How to treat a minor wing injury

is one wing drooping or dragging? Can the bird lift one but not the other? Hold out the damaged wing and feel along the long bones, and slowly manipulate the wing. Borken bones will have a gravelly feel and be obvious breaks in the bones. If they are not present, but the bird cannot lift the wing up to rest in the normal position, it is the carpal joint (common). Also feel along the wing bones for a compound fracture, where bone has come through the skin. There will be matted feathers and a bit of blood. In anything other than a simple break of the long bones AWAY FROM THE JOINT (which fuse together and cripple it), euthanase it. If a somple fracture, use masking tape to tape the wing to the bird in the closed position, over the damaged wing, under the healthy wing, around the body. Not tight. Leave it for 2 weeks. If healed, it will be stiff at first but should be working fine after a few days. If it isn't, you have to euthanase it. Don't get attached in the meantime - it's not a pet. Only attend to it to feed/water. Don't admire and make friends.

2.) How to treat a minor leg injury

you wont catch it, as it will be fully mobile and not need help. Ringers catch plenty of birds with healed leg breaks, often at odd angles. Leave alone.

3.) How to diagnose internal injury

wings and legs work but may be weak. Bird may have blood around bill/in mouth. Look all over the body for matted feathers indicating entry wound. Hard to diagnose, but probably wont live long anyway.

4.) What equipment I will need for any of the above and what would be the feeding regime

Masking tape (NOT sellotape, electricl tape etc - you'll never get it off the bird at the end. It has to be masking tape). Somewhere to keep it. Cricket bat ;) fluids are more important than food. Rehydrating fluid (salt, sugar, water - look online for ratio), and let it drink itself. Appropriate food for the species within 24 hrs, force-fed if necessary (larger birds).

5.) How to take the bird's vital obs

you've been watching too much ER! What can anyone do if its BP falls below 130? Get the shock plates out and call for the anaesthetist?! Only joking. Don't worry about all that. If not quick euthanasia, stablise the injury first of all (tape it up), get fluids in it second, give it peace and quiet third, then food, then more peace and quiet. It will either live or die, regardless of what else you do.

in the event, I am living in the sticks and have no equipment or access to veterinary advice but want to ensure euthanasia is the last resort

it may be the last resort, but it may also be rapidly clear that it is the first and only resort aswell, so don't hold back. If it needs doing, it needs doing. And straight away.

Incidently all birds taken to licensed rehabs

there are no licences for rehabs in the UK, except for Sch 4 species. If you pick up a bird, you become a rehabber - that's the exam.

the difference is between the life of the bird and a possible tick/good pic - I tend to view these things differently.

the onus isn't the life of the bird. Or shouldn't be imo. It should be the potential for suffering. A life of suffering is worse than no life to me. Life should not be preserved at all costs. That's why every vet kills animals every day.

I really do believe it's not a good idea giving medical advice on matters that, yes, could be life threatening, to amateurs, unless you are in a position to check an individual bird out yourself or at least know the full details of the bird's history with the rescuer - giving general advice when a specific bird is not in mind may well lead to some very quacky medicine by those who read it!

I'd recommend that anyone who has picked up a couple of birs so far, or has them brought on a reular basis by local people (we all get a reputation as the 'bird man' at times!) gets one of the Les Stocker wildlife care books. He's written lots - look on amazon. Gives practical advice of the type given above.

I think there are 'cyber' vets who run help forums, perhaps those could be looked into - if someone has access to the internet, which they would if they've come on here asking for help, wouldn't it be better to be directed to Vets who give can give advice online?

there are lots of sites, just google. But beware that some have a stronger emotive content than others (e.g. no kill policy under any circumstances), and none is an overall authority. Most are just private individuals with a bit of experience and their own personal opinions. Bit like old Knockernorton here. So your opinions are allowed to differ on the ethics.

[KnockerNorton]

STEP 5: Do not give food or water to the injured bird.

disagree, fluids are important.

STEP 6: Call for professional help. Do not try to treat an injured bird yourself unless you are a veterinarian or are licensed to handle wild birds. Follow the vet’s advice.

again, this is bogus, do not let it out anyone off. Unless the bird is a Schedule 4 species (eagles, peregrines, phalaropes etc), no licence is necessary to hand and take care of injured wild birds in the UK. Get it to a vet/experienced person if you can, but this make take a day or so, in which case the advice above on fluids and stabilising injuries and euthanasia comes into play.

There is no such thing as a 'licensed rehabilitator' in the UK. They are all private individuals or charities, and there is no licensing body.

Sorry to conflict with you, deborah4, but your need to specify the licensing issue for your audience in different countries.

[matt green]

Any chance of an update of the birds current state from the original poster?

Matt

[timwootton]

IMO I think its very different from asking advice over the internet about an ID or Photo technique - the difference is between the life of the bird and a possible tick/good pic -
No - it absolutely is not.
This Forum is an excellent source of advice and assistance. There have in the past been many pleas from bewildered and helpless folk asking 'what to do with an injured bird' (I well remember one last year where a young guy had in his possession a horned grebe - oh, we had some fun on that one! - not).
If you post a querie about, for instance, a gull ID and JanJ answers it, you are likely to say, ok that's that ID sorted. Why?, because he appears to know what he's talking about, has an excellent track record and, more importantly, can back up his assessment with obvious knowledge and access to excellent manuscripts.
If there are members on Birdforum who have a similar level of expertise in diagnosing bird injuries, can explain why an injury has happened and give a coherant explanation of the likelihood of successful rehabiliation and then offer advice as to what is the likely best course of action - then I see no reason why that advice shouldn't be available to those that need it, when they need it. Indeed, it has been shown in the past that Birdforum is a place where people seek this information.

And the advice to :
"STEP 4: Gently pick up a bird whose injuries are more serious and put it into a box or paper bag lined with soft tissues. Poke holes in the lid of the box or bag so that the bird can breathe."
Is all well and good, as is - contact a vet, re-habber, Prime Minister or whatever - but boxes lined with tissue paper aren't readily available on remote moorlands or off-shore islets, and mobile phones do not always give the service we might expect of them. However if you have already gone through likely (awful) scenarios such as diagnosis and treatment of injuries, as part of your 'Birding Skills' - then you will be in a better position to make the correct decision regarding a given set of circumstances.

Sorry Matt - I too wait for good news of the kestrel.

[KnockerNorton]

all a good excuse to have a close look at dead birds, or pay more attention when carving a chicken, so you know what bones are where and how they move/feel normaly.

[pygmy falcon]

I suppose people's perception of the Educational aspect with animals is different with everyone. I worked with Ed. raptors for several years, and while there were a few that did not do well in captivity, the majority of the birds that we had, did very well. Some people disagree that birds in captivity that aren't 100%, is a bad thing for these birds, and that's fine, people are entitled to their opinions. I personally think that it's better than having perfectly healthy, able to survive in the wild, birds in captivity for Education.

[pygmy falcon]

2)For all those who believe that it is more humaine to take a bird to a vet to euthanize then I would like to say that being stuck in a box for hours handled several times then a car journey, a sit in a vets (that even our pets smell a problem with) and finally another examination by a vet before they humainly inject the bird is all far more distressing for the bird than making a decission insitu and dispatching the bird there and then by hand. I do sympathise that not everyone has the courage or are able to make this dicision though. Its just what i would do, and did do befor becoming a rehabber. The vet is humaine but you must think of the time in captivaty as being a stress factor.



You still have to consider the legal aspect of things. Everywhere else, it seems to be legal, but if you live in the US, you need to consider the fact that it is illegal to even take in a wild bird, let alone euthanize it. I'm not going to condemn or condone what a person decides to do in an area where it is illegal, but thought I'd point it out again, anyway.

Most birds have very weak, if any, olfactory sense, so the 'smell' of a vet's office isn't a problem. Any of the vet clinics I've ever worked at, if a wild animal came in, in need of immediate euthanasia, we would take care of it right away. It's kind of a liability to have wildlife sitting in the waiting room with everyone else, so it's usually taken care of pretty quick...in my experience, anyway.

[amelia1730]

At the risk of being shouted at for being 'girly' can I ask - if I was at home and needed to euthanase, would drowning be humane? Not sure how long it would take though - a minute or so?? I know I would want to do the right thing but I couldn't hit a living creature, inside a bag or out.

(Post 119 very helpful)

[level seven]

would drowning be humane? Not sure how long it would take though - a minute or so??
I think you've answered your own question......

[nickderry]

Drowning is absolutely out of the question I'm afraid, though I can understand why it'd be preferred to avoid a hands-on approach, the time the bird would take to drown is too long, all that time it is panicking to get out of the water. Bash to the head can be instant, no matter how unpleasant it is to the person having to do it, the bird won't even know what hit it.

[deborah4]

KN:


Thanks for the first aid advice which I have cut and pasted and saved - I must say it makes the whole question of suggesting euthanasia over the internet a little more palatable if it is discussed in the context of what we can do to hopefully in order to avoid making a wrong diagnosis and euthanising unnecessarily or making a situation more serious with badly administered first aid (leaving aside the obvious need in Jonathan's scenario of squashed rear ends, holes in the head etc! And the personal/subjective views of whether the efforts of rehab is 'right' or not for birds on the basis they might not be able to be released/or die in the interim process - the first is obvious, the second may be subject to personal points of view)

So:

1. I will create a bird first aid box, if I am likely to move to an area where it would be difficult to contact a vet/RSPCA - in the UK I doubt whether that would occur tbh, but just in case and just in case I do manage to contact 'experts' but have to treat the bird on their advice at home as it would be too distant for someone to pick up. I don't drive, but perhaps it would be a good idea for birders to keep emergency cardbox box/towel/masking tape, gloves, water dispenser, etc in their car as well as phone numbers of people they trust to give good advice in an emergency situation. I will also ensure in my rucksack on any birding trips, I have a cloth, gloves and masking tape and telephone nos..

2. I will source the author you mentioned and read up on how to assess/treat any injuries that wouldn't be obviously life threatening if I took the bird into my own care (in the absence of immediate help from a professional)

3. I will of course, not with hold from putting any animal and bird 'out of its misery' if a situation arises that Jonathan described earlier - I'd rather not discuss how I would do that but I would make darn sure it was very quick, decisive and took immediate effect.

TIM:

IF you can draw up a few diagrams to illustrate KN's advice on how to assess and treat an injured wing (including skeletal diag.) that would be very helpful indeed.

KN; The reason I asked about OBS wasn't for blood pressure but for temperature - which would help determine presence of infection would it not? (I'm thinking here of a scenario where one has treated a minor wing injury but the bird potentially could die a few days later as a result of an untreated infection) ALSO, you didn't seem to give any advice about how to assess if a bird has internal injury .... what about ribcage injury, damage to internal ear etc? ... things a vet would probably pick up fairly quickly.

[Jos Stratford]

STEP 5: Do not give food or water to the injured bird.

In my humble opinion, unwise advice.


STEP 6: Call for professional help. Do not try to treat an injured bird yourself unless you are a veterinarian or are licensed to handle wild birds.

Disagree, a modicum of experience of handling birds, or a good dose of common sense, can go a long way. Also remember, already pointed out, this is a global forum and, in the greater part of the globe, veterinarians will not be interested and animal rehabbers will be absent.

[lulie]

I suppose people's perception of the Educational aspect with animals is different with everyone. I worked with Ed. raptors for several years, and while there were a few that did not do well in captivity, the majority of the birds that we had, did very well. Some people disagree that birds in captivity that aren't 100%, is a bad thing for these birds, and that's fine, people are entitled to their opinions. I personally think that it's better than having perfectly healthy, able to survive in the wild, birds in captivity for Education.

I agree that having perfectly healthy able to survive in the wild birds in captivity is not good. I infact would like to see no birds in cages. I was trying to suggest that a totally wild bird or mammal in captivity is never relaxed, it may be doing well, ie eating ect but they are always in some way distressed. On the other hand a human reared or imprinted bird or mammal is always much more relaxed around people when used for education.
Where I worked we had a cage of non releaseable spotted eagle owls, a common species often hit by cars. I euthanized about one a week. When you have 5 dejected looking owls in one cage it is inapproprate to add more for 'educational' reasons. Its too easy an excuse for trying to save these birds.
On the other hand a wood owl that had come to us as a chick that had been hand raised by someone but kept too long and had become human imprinted therefore unable to survive in the wild but tame was a much better choice for an ambassador animal.
This bird flew freely around and delighted many a visitor, where as the spotted eagle owls where left to their quiet corner.
i realise we will probably differ on this point, but just wished to make myself clear that I didn't mean healthy birds removed from the wild for the sole purpose of education. If they can be release they should be.

[Jos Stratford]

... putting any animal and bird 'out of its misery' .... I would make darn sure it was very quick, decisive and took immediate effect.


Wasn't our Dr KN's initial suggestion fitting? :-O

[deborah4]

The 'ADVICE' STEPS aren't mine btw ... I just cut and pasted the advice given on BF in the sticky about what to do with injured birds .... if people with more experience feel these need to be amended which is quite possible following the response by some of you, then admin needs to be contacted so you can amend the BF advice in the best interests of helping injured birds.

BTW: KN

What about diagnosing DISLOCATION of the carpal joint? Presumably this could also result in a dragging wing/out of shape?

[deborah4]

Wasn't our Dr KN's initial suggestion fitting? :-O

IMO, no, because I personally wouldn't have taken that action with the Kestrel in question as I believe I would have tried to save it even if it did mean resulting in captive life -

My comment about fast sudden euthanasia was for the scenario Jonathon pointed out - as I did earlier, ie. a bird or animal half squashed on the road or something like.

[deborah4]

I personally think that it's better than having perfectly healthy, able to survive in the wild, birds in captivity for Education.

If a bird is in captivity for other reasons than that fact it is a rescued but lame bird, then I'm afraid I'd have to go a few steps further and say, I don't believe any bird should be in captivity, including small caged birds, falconers birds, racing pigeons etc - that's a very personal opinion and I know there are members of this Forum who subscribe to one or the other some of whom are contributing to the thread and many members have pet birds, so don't want to diss anyone - I'm afraid this includes birds hand reared for captive purposes despite any arguments that someone might lob on the basis 'they've never known any different' - not sure how long a memory birds have anyway!

[dantheman]

I think you're missing the point. Things don't "quietly die with dignity", they die because they either starve, get dehydrated, or stress overwhelmes them, or their injury prevents them being alive by causing organ failure. That's how people die too, but they're full of palliative drugs at the time and don't feel it.



Maybe I am. I'm not a great believer in progress I guess. (Not saying I wouldn't take the drugs if I was in the situation).

I was thinking more of the wider spectrum of wildlife/animals in general. eg nestlings die all the time due to poor weather -parents can't find the food. Parents killed. They go into a state of 'suspended animation' I believe eg Swifts etc??, or resting at least between feeds. They don't even know they've succombed. I may be wrong . . .

Some pet owners, if their animal is dying, but seems comfortable ( - operative word) allow them to die quietly.

A wild animal, injured, holes up, licks its wounds, makes it or doesn't make it. I guess that's the kind of dignity I'm thinking of. It doesn't get carted off to be dealt with somewhere, or get its neck wringed and put in a bin bag to go to landfill.



None of those scenarios are quick or nice (birds are vertebrates like us, and we know a lot about birds and stress), and all take time. Sometimes days.

Until we can communicate with birds or any other animal, we cannot know what they feel, even dogs or chimpamzees. But we can make good inferences:

Pain in Birds (can't vouch for this, don't know the journal)


Author: Gentle, M.J.

Source: Animal Welfare, Volume 1, Number 4, November 1992 , pp. 235-247(13)

Publisher: Universities Federation for Animal Welfare

Abstract:

For the detection and assessment of pain in animals both behavioural and physiological measurements are necessary. Cutaneous receptors which responded to noxious stimulation (nociceptors) have been identified in birds and have been characterized physiologically in the chicken. Following cutaneous nociceptive stimulation the chicken showed cardiovascular and characteristic behavioural changes consistent with those seen in mammals and indicative of pain perception. Following major burn trauma (partial beak amputation) there was behavioural and electrophysiological evidence for a pain-free period lasting several hours. This pain-free period was followed by pain-related behaviour with both anatomical and physiological evidence for long-term chronic pain.

While pain has been assessed following nociceptive stimulation and following trauma the painful consequences of chronic disease have not been investigated. Spontaneous degenerative joint disease is widespread in certain strains of intensively reared poultry, and while we do not know what effect joint degeneration has on the joint capsule receptors, recent work has shown in the joint capsule of birds there are similar receptor types to those found in mammals and it seems likely that joint degeneration in birds may be accompanied by painful sensations.

Experimental work has clearly detected painful conditions in birds but the alleviation of pain with analgesic drugs is not possible at present because analgesic agents have not been systematically investigated in birds.

Comparing pain in birds with mammals it is clear that, with regard to the anatomical, physiological and behavioural parameters measured, there are no major differences and therefore the ethical considerations normally afforded to mammals should be extended to birds.

But even in fish, which are more primitive (and a good journal):

The evidence for pain in fish: the use of morphine as an analgesic .
Applied Animal Behaviour Science , Volume 83 , Issue 2 , Page 153
L . Sneddon

This paper discusses the evidence for pain perception in fish and presents new data on morphine analgesia in fish. Recent anatomical and electrophysiological studies have demonstrated that fish are capable of nociception, the simple detection of a noxious, potentially painful stimulus and the reflex response to this. To prove pain perception, it must be demonstrated that an animal’s behaviour is adversely affected by a potentially painful event and this must not be a reflex response. The present study examined the acute effects of administering a noxious chemical to the lips of rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss) to assess what changes occurred in behaviour and physiology. There was no difference in swimming activity or use of cover when comparing the noxiously stimulated individuals with the controls. The noxiously treated individuals performed anomalous behaviours where they rocked on either pectoral fin from side to side and they also rubbed their lips into the gravel and against the sides of the tank. Opercular beat rate (gill or ventilation rate) increased almost double fold after the noxious treatment whereas the controls only showed a 30% increase. Administering morphine significantly reduced the pain-related behaviours and opercular beat rate and thus morphine appears to act as an analgesic in the rainbow trout. It is concluded that these pain-related behaviours are not simple reflexes and therefore there is the potential for pain perception in fish.



Cheers for that KN.

Anglers (and I know this isn't a fishing forum) are working on the principle that fish don't feel pain or that it doesn'y matter. Interesting. So yes, draw conclusions is fair in some respects, although I'd assume (may be wrong) that that part of the fish would be particularly sensitive to foreign substances/poisoning - they taste/smell with that portion of their anatomy.

On the chicken front, fair enough, although I think that the amount of pain felt will obviously relate to the amount of nerve endings in the area; the bill with its internal olfactory functions is going to be highly sensitive, and once the initial cauterisation numbing effect has worn off - yep, pain felt.

Not totally sure what that proves however. Not sure how many pain/sensory endings there are in the wing area.


Pain and suffering obviously are going to occur in birds, I guess it would be a bit silly to argue not or want to establish it was the case.

The degree of how much does have some relevence, but will differ eg in fledglings, different types of injuries etc. (However in a FULL discusion and analysis of care, treatment (including euthanasia) and handling of injured/abandoned birds it would have to be looked into at an early stage - working on incorrect assumptions could possibly follow otherwise).

There may be fuller significant work done on eg stress involved in fledglings starving to death etc etc. (Experiments like this etc all a fair bit distasteful if you want to stop and think about it of course . . . ). Anyway, moving on.

[dantheman]

Partially guilty of not keeping up on this thread. ;)

dantheman thinks they should be left in a hedgerow as his "preferred option...if appropriate". I can't think of any circumstances when this would be appropriate though.

In that posting, the 'preferred' part was tongue-in-cheek, referring back to a previous YL Gull thread. Maybe should have put a smiley . . .

Although I think it an argument which has 'some' credence.

But probably not if

a) the animal has been caught already, taken into custody.
b) its a bird like a Kestrel with an injured wing.
etc

Examples where it could be appropriate;

a) a common pest which will provide food for someone else in the food chain.
b) mortally injured reptiles etc - don't know how to despatch them.
c) mortally injured creatures which are about to be food for another creature.
d) creatures which are apparently going to 'slip away' anyway. (eg baby mice as mentioned, ill/unconscious creatures etc)

Maybe I'm just particularly cruel and heartless!

On the other hand, happy to be wrong on some (all) of these, as I am in an obvious minority, and no vegan buddhists/animal spirit believers etc have come wading in with their arguments why something should not be despatched. ;)

[dantheman]

To be honest, i think that all of that is highly personal to you and, as such, not really capable of being extrapolated, and again takes things into the emotive side of things which is where we've just left. The ethics are fairly straightforward - 'something should generally be done'. Nobody is forcing anyone to kill anything, and as such nobody is handing out baseball bats. It is purely advice, and advice can be taken or not taken. What you *think* of the advice in terms of your moral compass is not really the point, as that tiptoes towards doctrine. The morality or ethics of killing are not at question here, it's what the best course of action that we're discussing. Killing is one option, and the techniques and circumstances are being discussed. If your girlfriend could do it or not isn't the issue, as she could take it someone who could (a vet, a farmer, a neighbour, Monty Panesar)

Obviously you (and others on this thread) have been through some sort of process (consciously or not), where this is all sorted, the objectives and action clear in your mind. Fair enough. I feel that for many others, this won't be the case. I am merely trying to post up scenarios in which other less- informed persons could have cause for concern. The ethics and morals side of are relevent, although we can of course agree do differ on this one. (And the thread is moving on anyway, no need to dwell :t: )

As long as those proposing a quick end to a life realise that posting it without an explanation or apparent symapthy could cause problems (it did offend one poster on the YL Gull thread, others here, as evidenced by the ensuing discussion.)

This thread is highly instructive and interesting and should be going a long way towards allaying fears people may have.

Appreciate we have moved away from some of these issues, fair enough, do not sdesire to keep going over old ground. This is a wide subject. A whole can of worms in fact opened up*. (And which one would YOU save??)

(*Whole new areas - Falconry centres, rescue centres etc etc)

On the other hand, some may still have reservations, that viewpoint needs respecting/ accounting for (delete as appropriate). Appreciate it is advice given, how it is given also has some relevence.

(I wouldn't particulry trust Monty Panasar with the bat on this one . . . the ball maybe ;) Actually not sure I'd trust the great british public either, if the current Big Brother dross are anything to go by . . . )

[Robert / Seattle]

A whack on the head is quick and easy to administer. ..

And, in this country at least, illegal.

And, on this particular bird, unnecessary*.

If the bird is a candidate for recovery*, even with the ability for future flight and self-reliance compromised, it can be of great use as an educational "ambassador" with school children and the like. Can't tell you how many "flightless" raptors are now touring the educational circuit and enabling the kind of insight and appreciation in children that pictures simply fail to communicate.

[Jos Stratford]

And, in this country at least, illegal.

And, on this particular bird, unnecessary.

Of the two sentences, the second would be of more relevance to me.

Regarding the first, if I had fully satisfied myself that the bird was suffering unduly and this was not something that could be remedied, then I would not necessarily abide by a law that states I could not act humanely.

[Jos Stratford]

If the bird is a candidate for recovery*, even with the ability for future flight and self-reliance compromised, it can be of great use as an educational "ambassador" with school children and the like. Can't tell you how many "flightless" raptors are now touring the educational circuit and enabling the kind of insight and appreciation in children that pictures simply fail to communicate.

I would question this. Agreed there is educational value of captive birds being used to encourage interest, but I would have thought it better to use a bird captive bred and without fear of constant and close human contact. I would imagine being carted around schools, admired by over-enthusiastic children, etc, could be a constant source of trauma to a previously wild bird.

(a hundred gauking schoolkids would freak me out, wouldn't fancy being the bird with its primarly mode of movement amputated)

[Robert / Seattle]

I would question this. Agreed there is educational value of captive birds being used to encourage interest, but I would have thought it better to use a bird captive bred and without fear of constant and close human contact. I would imagine being carted around schools, admired by over-enthusiastic children, etc, could be a constant source of trauma to a previously wild bird. ...


Well think again:

http://redfalcon.gaia.com/blog/2008/3/freedom_the_rescued_bald_eagle

[Jos Stratford]

Well think again:


Thought again, still seen nothing to chance my view - the link you provide was to a young bird that had fallen from a nest, hardly a comparison to an injured adult bird being used. I would not classify an injured nestling as the same as a bird that had been free-flying and used to a life in the wild.

Though there might be examples of injured adults that seem to not be stressed by being used as 'ambassadors' and paraded in schools, I still would question why a captive-bred bird would not be more suitable (as the chances of stressing the thing out has to be far greater to a wild bird then captive one)

[Robert / Seattle]

Thought again, still seen nothing to chance my view - the link you provide was to a young bird that had fallen from a nest, hardly a comparison to an injured adult bird being used. I would not classify an injured nestling as the same as a bird that had been free-flying and used to a life in the wild.

Though there might be examples of injured adults that seem to not be stressed by being used as 'ambassadors' and paraded in schools, I still would question why a captive-bred bird would not be more suitable (as the chances of stressing the thing out has to be far greater to a wild bird then captive one)

My take, Jos, is that wild creatures are infinitely more adaptable than we give them credit for. It's the nature of most living things to be so. If "our" falcon can be treated to a point of living a comfortable, if captive, life - then I for one would have little doubt that the end result here would be much preferred to a "baseball bat to the head" (talk about "stress").

With proper care, companionship, and an educational message delivered to appreciative audiences in the process, I can't see much that would support an unnecessary and brutal alternative.

[Jos Stratford]

If "our" falcon can be treated to a point of living a comfortable, if captive, life - then I for one would have little doubt that the end result here would be much preferred to a baseball bat to the head.

I won't argue against that*, but if I had brought it that comfortable life, I wouldn't then seek to make it less comfortable by carting it round schools and educational institutes.


* note, somewhere in the depths of this thread, I stated that in this example, I would have attempted to save the kestrel.

[deborah4]

What still concerns me and hasn't been fully addressed regarding the initial advice given for the Kestrel in question is this:

DIAGNOSTIC ABILITY

Becca was advised that the bird should be euthanised immediately rather than wait for a rehab/vet to call back so (without wanting to dredge up old mud!) on the basis of a photo - another scenario could have been how Becca described what she saw but was unable to post a pic - The immediate response to the photo was to euthanise on the basis the carpal joint was fractured/severely damaged - As KN points out below, this is likely to be a permenant and non-recoverable injury:

Hold out the damaged wing and feel along the long bones, and slowly manipulate the wing. Borken bones will have a gravelly feel and be obvious breaks in the bones. If they are not present, but the bird cannot lift the wing up to rest in the normal position, it is the carpal joint (common). Also feel along the wing bones for a compound fracture, where bone has come through the skin. There will be matted feathers and a bit of blood. In anything other than a simple break of the long bones AWAY FROM THE JOINT (which fuse together and cripple it), euthanase it.

However: this diagnosis came into question at least 48 hours later after the strong advice the bird should be euthanised had been given:


Originally Posted by timwootton [left]Just looking at the original photograph of the kestrel's injury and I am of the opinion that the damaged wing is probably intact, and that the damage is likely to be muscular or tendon/ligament damage. It's also possible that there's been a severe dislocation or perhaps a break in the humerus (nice to introduce a bit more humerus to this discussion, I think). As I've tried to show in the first drawing, the wing is hyperflexed and twisted to some degree, but it's not massively out of alignment (in fact, anyone who's observed geese distracting with a broken-wing display would have noticed them holding their wing in a similar position – that's not to say this bird isn't very severely damaged – I'm sure it is).

yes, I do agree that it's not the carpals (as I first suggested, I noticed this the other day but got bogged down in other issues :) ) but higher up. However, it isn't a dislocation of the humerus imo as the tertials are still in alignment, whereas most of the secondaries are not, so it has to be a twist on the radius/ulna, which must mean a break (tertials mostly emanate form the radius/ulna section http://www.gutenberg.org/files/20417.../image155c.jpg), not the humerus. It's possible there's a compound fracture though, and will definately be ligament damage.

If Becca had followed the advice to euthanise the Kestrel rather than wait for a call back from a qualified Vet/licensed Rehabber, the Kestrel would have been dead and it would have been too late, if it transpires that the later 're-diagnose' had proved to be more accurate. Perhaps KN was right and it will transpire when Becca gets some feedback, that it was in fact a Carpal Joint break but what if he wasn't and it was serious ligament injury or a compound fracture 'AWAY FROM THE JOINT'?

Whether or not it would have recovered or whether it should spend life in rehab becomes a mute point, it would have been dead perhaps unnecessarily.

(hence my concerns re: advising to euthanise a bird one hasn't examined and a desire at least to be educated in how to diagnose for myself properly, (in the absence of 'expert' help) an injury to help me ensure euthanasia is the last resort treatment vis a vis a particular injury - and then, only then, the question of a life in capitivity becomes relevant and desirable/not desireable based on one's personal point of view.)

[dantheman]

I think this is another example of the human/wildlife interaction which is why this particular avenue is not a clear cut 'black and white' one.

Different species, different rescue centres, different individual bird 'personalities, different injuries . . .

Generalisations can't be made, yet somehow, concensus has to be reached??

(Edit: referring to posts 138 -144 btw)

[Apodemus]

yet somehow, concensus has to be reached??



Oh, I doubt that very much!

[Robert / Seattle]

I won't argue against that*, but if I had brought it that comfortable life, I wouldn't then seek to make it less comfortable by carting it round schools and educational institutes. ..

Nor would I if it proved stressful to the bird. Rather, I'd give it a few cautious, tentative runs and take it from there. But either way, if the bird was fully recovered in health, if not flight ability, it's quality of life would be assured under the auspices of a caring human being or institution.

This is almost a weekly occurrence here in the Pacific Northwest as reported on the local nightly news. Each and every injured raptor brought to qualified authorities here gets treated and subsequently placed in the most appropriate post-care environment. -- be it wildlife park, educational "ambassadorship", or re-release to the environment. It's the right thing to do, isn't it?

[danehower]

Oh, I doubt that very much!

Aww shucks ! Does this mean that BF's " Dummies guide to euthanizing injured birds" will not go to print ? ;)

[timwootton]

Aww shucks ! Does this mean that BF's " Dummies guide to euthanizing injured birds" will not go to print ? ;)
B*gger - I was just working on the layouts, too!

[danehower]

B*gger - I was just working on the layouts, too!

3:-)

[Apodemus]

Aww shucks ! Does this mean that BF's " Dummies guide to euthanizing injured birds" will not go to print ? ;)

Would this book have an extendable baton built into the spine, and a handy foldaway bag in the back?

[danehower]

Would this book have an extendable baton built into the spine, and a handy foldaway bag in the back?

hahahaha !! :clap:3:-)

[pygmy falcon]

A couple of things I would like to point out. First is on the basis of legality with this particular bird. Since Becca left messages with rehab centers, they are aware that she had this bird already. For Becca's sake, self euthanasia was not an option. If she told the rehab center that the bird died on it's own, she would still have to submit the body to USFWS, or the state DNR because it is property of the state. She would be legally bound to turn the body in, if asked for it. If she turned it in beaten to a pulp, she would be under investigation, and possibly charged with a misdemeanor, or worse. Who knows?

As far as the education setting goes, I worked with 30+ birds. They all came from different places, whether accidental imprints, or injuries due to nature or humans. The ones that always got people's attention were the ones that were injured by humans. It brought the message home to people that 'this bird can't fly because of a human.' The ones that were old falconer's birds, etc, that had nothing physically wrong with them, didn't seem to spark the attention as much.
Most of these birds, like I said, did really well in captivity. It goes beyond just the fact that they were 'able to eat.' Some formed pair bonds with one another, some formed pair bonds with the docents, some laid eggs. We had owls that would fall asleep when held. The point being, that they didn't lead terrible lives in captivity. They started to do natural behaviors again. When taken out to do programs, they weren't stressed out. they would look around, sit with a relaxed stance, and their breathing was slow and calm.
Besides, a lot of injured birds do well in captive breeding programs for population increase programs......

[timwootton]

A couple of things I would like to point out. First is on the basis of legality with this particular bird. Since Becca left messages with rehab centers, they are aware that she had this bird already. For Becca's sake, self euthanasia was not an option. If she told the rehab center that the bird died on it's own, she would still have to submit the body to USFWS, or the state DNR because it is property of the state. She would be legally bound to turn the body in, if asked for it. If she turned it in beaten to a pulp, she would be under investigation, and possibly charged with a misdemeanor, or worse. Who knows?
Well all I can say about that scenario is I'm very glad I don't live in 'The land of the Free', where 'the State' OWNS wildlife. And, without protracting this point any further than necessary - regarding stress of captive 'wild' birds, I'm afraid you just DON'T know how much/little stress they're under. Each species reacts to stress in different ways. Of course birds can be rehabilitated to do 'wonderful things', but if you cannot giove them back the freedom they were hatched to, then, to my way of thinking, you're doing zilch for the individual except prolonging its 'life'.
And as we're dealing anthropomorphistic emotions, If you read or see the play 'Who's Life is it Anyway', that puts my position pretty much.

[KnockerNorton]

At the risk of being shouted at for being 'girly' can I ask - if I was at home and needed to euthanase, would drowning be humane? Not sure how long it would take though - a minute or so?? I know I would want to do the right thing but I couldn't hit a living creature, inside a bag or out.

(Post 119 very helpful)

No, it's quite inhumane, for the bird and the person who has to hold it underwater until it stops kicking. Not pleasant. Pigeon fanciers often use(d?) this mehtod, I understand.

[lulie]

I have to agree with Tim. My experience with rehab left me seriously doubting the real benefits to conservation. We had over 100 raptors in the center, some work we did was excellent, the rehabilitating and releaseing of poisoned vultures for instance was fantastic. But even using birds for breeding has a very limited use. We had an african crowned eagle who would lay eggs which we would replace with second, non hatched eggs from the wild, she would then rear them. Fantastic? not really, almost all the chicks were then passed on to other centers as there were all most no available terrotories for these birds to be released into. Learned this the hard way when feeling all puffed up about ourselves and with grand ceremony released a fully fledged crowned eagle into the greater Kruger park, only to watch it be killed by the resident pair.
So nothing is quite as simple as just helping these birds, there are many many consequences to our actions.
I do agree that education has its part to play but for many who attend these educational sessions it is merely a spectacle; I watched many tourist on educational talks move away from the educator talking animatedly about the plight of the vultures cause they had seen the cheetah across the way in another enclosure and were more interested in this cause they might get to have their photo taken with it.
I do believe that some injured and rehabbed birds have a part to play in education but just wish it wasn't so flippently used as a reason to save every common buzzard or kestrels life. How ever happy they apear, it is a dimminished life for them if they are not free, and having 1 bird of a species is enough to educate with, you don't need 20 of the same bird.
So I still have some faith in rehabbing and I don't believe that any rehabber is being cruel as such and will be looking after the birds wonderfully, its not a dig at them, its just the ethics of it that I doubt.
Perhaps also things are very different here in south africa to where you are!

[KnockerNorton]

KN; The reason I asked about OBS wasn't for blood pressure but for temperature - which would help determine presence of infection would it not?

you don't need temp - if it has an gut infection the faeces will be very loose and the vent area will be wet and matted. Respiratory infection will give similar symptoms at the other end. Infections such as pox etc cause warts, and bacterial skin infections cause weels and boils on the skin. Most often, people will find a giull with botulinum or salmonella, or a finch with trichomoniasis or salmonella. There's not too much you can do, without identifying the exact bug (with needs a lab), except give warmth, food and water and see if it recovers on its own. Gulls often do ime, finches usually don't. A vet or Stocker's books can give advice on antibiotics for eg botulinum. Infections from injuries will need a broad-spectrum antibiotic only available from vets, but birds are quite good at shaking them off on their own. Washing the affected area with salty water/antiseptic works to prevent such things. But if the bird has a puncture wound from a wound, then it;s likely to be from a compound fracture or gunshot, which means an infections is the least of its problems. Puncture wounds from cats, even minor, are often fatal due to septicaemia. These things can happen very quickly, over a few hours, due to fast metabolism in birds, so by the time you've realised it will often be too late.

ALSO, you didn't seem to give any advice about how to assess if a bird has internal injury .... what about ribcage injury, damage to internal ear etc? ... things a vet would probably pick up fairly quickly.

Internal structural injuries are extremely hard to diagnose without x-rays. A broken furculum (wishbone), for example, is nigh-on impossible to diagnose as the wings work fine but it wont be able to fly (tape up both wings and treat as broken wing if you suspect it). Ribcage injuries wouldn't stop a bird flying and would heal spontaneously. Ditto sternum, unless it was severe, but such injuries will be comparatively rare (due to protection fromm the muscle mass) unless it's been shot. In which case it will have an entry wound and possibly organ damage and multiple fractures, so what you (or a vet) can do is limited.

'Internal ear' injuries are often more brain-type injuries from a collision - its hard to tell exactly what tey are, and there's not a lot you can do either way, but it's easy to diagnose cos the bird will hold it's head at a funny angle, even upside down, or have one eye closed all the time. It may also peck at food but miss. All you (or a vet) can do is give it fluids by hand for a few days and see if it fully recovers over several days (a week tops). If not, goodnight - there is no coming back.

[KnockerNorton]

BTW: KN

What about diagnosing DISLOCATION of the carpal joint? Presumably this could also result in a dragging wing/out of shape?

The carpal joint is a complex one, and dislocation would also result in substantial damage to the muscles, nerves and ligaments. I've never seen a dislocation on the carpals, but it would be difficult to tell from a fracture anyway, and probably be as 'fatal'.

The carpal is the most important and delicate joint in a bird, as it has to be perfect to enable flight. Think of the fine tuning a kestrel needs to stay on a spot in a breeze -that is all done from the carpal. Any stiffness or lack of movement, and it wont be able to fly properly, which is as good as not being able to fly at all. A flapping bird's wingtip goes in a figure of 8 movement, rotating on the carpal. If this is impaired in anyway, then it wont work.

[KnockerNorton]

Partially guilty of not keeping up on this thread. ;)



In that posting, the 'preferred' part was tongue-in-cheek, referring back to a previous YL Gull thread. Maybe should have put a smiley . . .

Although I think it an argument which has 'some' credence.

But probably not if

a) the animal has been caught already, taken into custody.
b) its a bird like a Kestrel with an injured wing.
etc

Examples where it could be appropriate;

a) a common pest which will provide food for someone else in the food chain.
b) mortally injured reptiles etc - don't know how to despatch them.
c) mortally injured creatures which are about to be food for another creature.
d) creatures which are apparently going to 'slip away' anyway. (eg baby mice as mentioned, ill/unconscious creatures etc)

Maybe I'm just particularly cruel and heartless!

On the other hand, happy to be wrong on some (all) of these, as I am in an obvious minority, and no vegan buddhists/animal spirit believers etc have come wading in with their arguments why something should not be despatched. ;)

No, it has no credence whatsoever. It is a cruel, inhumane and cowardly thing to do. Akin to stepping over a pedestrian who's been knocked down by a car.

[KnockerNorton]

I have to agree with Tim. My experience with rehab left me seriously doubting the real benefits to conservation. We had over 100 raptors in the center, some work we did was excellent, the rehabilitating and releaseing of poisoned vultures for instance was fantastic. But even using birds for breeding has a very limited use. We had an african crowned eagle who would lay eggs which we would replace with second, non hatched eggs from the wild, she would then rear them. Fantastic? not really, almost all the chicks were then passed on to other centers as there were all most no available terrotories for these birds to be released into. Learned this the hard way when feeling all puffed up about ourselves and with grand ceremony released a fully fledged crowned eagle into the greater Kruger park, only to watch it be killed by the resident pair.
So nothing is quite as simple as just helping these birds, there are many many consequences to our actions.
I do agree that education has its part to play but for many who attend these educational sessions it is merely a spectacle; I watched many tourist on educational talks move away from the educator talking animatedly about the plight of the vultures cause they had seen the cheetah across the way in another enclosure and were more interested in this cause they might get to have their photo taken with it.
I do believe that some injured and rehabbed birds have a part to play in education but just wish it wasn't so flippently used as a reason to save every common buzzard or kestrels life. How ever happy they apear, it is a dimminished life for them if they are not free, and having 1 bird of a species is enough to educate with, you don't need 20 of the same bird.
So I still have some faith in rehabbing and I don't believe that any rehabber is being cruel as such and will be looking after the birds wonderfully, its not a dig at them, its just the ethics of it that I doubt.
Perhaps also things are very different here in south africa to where you are!

if there were medals for common sense and compassion, I'd give you one.

[KnockerNorton]

Obviously you (and others on this thread) have been through some sort of process (consciously or not), where this is all sorted, the objectives and action clear in your mind. Fair enough. I feel that for many others, this won't be the case.

Forgive me, but I thought the whole point of this thread and entire forum was to get the benefit of other people's experience.

[KnockerNorton]

If the bird is a candidate for recovery*, even with the ability for future flight and self-reliance compromised, it can be of great use as an educational "ambassador" with school children and the like. Can't tell you how many "flightless" raptors are now touring the educational circuit and enabling the kind of insight and appreciation in children that pictures simply fail to communicate.

Can you vouch for their quality of life, or are they simple tools in your eyes? A stuffed bird does the same job, doesn't it? Or one of the many captive-bred birds from captive bloodlines, which can actually fly and give much more of a 'wow' factor (as mentioned). I imagine a kid seeing a one-winged hawk would feel pretty sorry for it when they learn it can't actually get off the perch. A full-flying bird is a different matter. There are plenty of imprinted, unreleasable captive-bred birds around.

[timwootton]

So I still have some faith in rehabbing and I don't believe that any rehabber is being cruel as such and will be looking after the birds wonderfully, its not a dig at them, its just the ethics of it that I doubt.
Perhaps also things are very different here in south africa to where you are!
I certainly think along these lines too. I mean, I have rehabilitated birds back into the wild myself. Successfully? - I think so, but once it's gone, it's gone.
And - I would love to be proved wrong about the am. Kestrel at the start of the thread - I really would.
So, fingers crossed.

[dantheman]

Forgive me, but I thought the whole point of this thread and entire forum was to get the benefit of other people's experience.

No forgiveness required :t: . That's my point too and why it's good that things are being explained.

[dantheman]

No, it has no credence whatsoever. It is a cruel, inhumane and cowardly thing to do. Akin to stepping over a pedestrian who's been knocked down by a car.

Let's please try and keep the anthropomorphic sentimentality out of this thread . . . Please?? ;)

Edit: I can see another tit for tat circular argument developing. I'm sure that there would be circumstances as described (and I was broadening it out to wildlife in general and including cases where the wild creature has not been taken into custody).

(A scenario on BF a while ago - rabbit attacked by stoat on nature reserve, then disturbed by people. What to do?? - one option would be not to intervene, give the stoat a second chance. Nature is violent -fact of life. Pain and suffering occur on a daily and widespread basis.) There wil be other cases . . . mankind does not have the right to intervene and subjugate nature at his will (he thinks he does).

Maybe we should leave this one.

There's enough to be getting on with on the future prospects of injured birds which can't rehabbed back into the wild. I happen to be in general agreement on the sadness of life for birds in captivity in many cases. Agree with Lulie et al on this one, given current circumstances.

Maybe in The USA treatment (in terms of enjoyment of life) of captured and injured birds is on the whole a bit more advanced than here.

[KnockerNorton]

Let's please try and keep the anthropomorphic sentimentality out of this thread . . . Please?? ;)

Oh cripes, I think I've caught an infection myself! A little-known virus: Emotivia danthedeborasii! Quick, give me a mercy clubbing!

[Apodemus]

Oh cripes, I think I've caught an infection myself! A little-known virus: Emotivia danthedeborasii! Quick, give me a mercy clubbing!

WACK!!!!!!

[timwootton]

Form an ORDERLY queue, please!!!! ;)

[pygmy falcon]

Well, this is clearly one of those topics that could easily get to 20 pages long, before people are just exhausted of it. Everyone has differing opinions about all of this stuff, and we all just keep going 'round and 'round with it. I guess it's just a good time to agree to disagree? We all get on our little soap boxes to prove a point in every post, but it's not gonna change anyone's thoughts and opinions on the subject. It's kind of like the topic of religion (yea, I said it,) we've been debating sun up to sun down, but no one has really budged in their way of thinking....and I really doubt anyone will.
Just an observation while reflecting on the last 7 pages here... :)

[Apodemus]

Time to just knock it on the head, you mean?

[Woody]

Time to just knock it on the head, you mean?

:clap::clap::clap:3:-)

Mike

[Jos Stratford]

we've been debating sun up to sun down, but no one has really budged in their way of thinking....and I really doubt anyone will.


But for the casual reader who happens upon this thread, he or she will now have a very clear idea what to do should they venture upon a hapless bird in much distress ...


1. Ascertain as to what country you are in...
(a) the United States ...........go to 2
(b) the United Kingdom ...........go to 9
(c) Malta ..............go to 3
(d) other countries .............go to 4


2. Check if any law enforcement officers are within sight.
(a) If yes ..................go to 5
(b) If no ...................go to 6

3. Eat it, then go to gun school to improve your shot for next time.

4. Idiot, go and live in the UK, then return to 1.

5. You are at risk of federal indictment. Proceed with caution, the bloodied mess on the road is property of the state. If you are of compassionate disposition, you are better adviced to leave the bird where it is. Go mug someone, it's less hassle.


6. Proceed with caution, the bloodied mess on the road is property of the state. Assess injuries.
(a) Injuries do not seem life threatening/beyond recovery .........go to 7
(b) Injuries seem life threatening/beyond recovery ........go to 8


7. Do not contact rehabbers - should the bird unfortunately die before they reach you, you will be under obligation to keep the stinking corpse in your car or house until the FBI so demands it. Put the bird back where you found it or bash it over the head with a baseball, these are the only available options unless you have a Yale University Advanced Doctorate in Avian Resuscitation.


8. Bash it over the head, then cross the Mexican or Canadian border (preferably not by bus if the latter), thereafter make your way to Europe and apply for political asylum.


9. Welcome to the true Land of the Free (as opposed to the other one that likes to call itself such), you will be judged only by the self-appointed morality police. Assess the bird's injuries.
(a) Injuries do not seem life threatening/beyond recovery .........go to 10
(b) Injuries seem life threatening/beyond recovery ........go to 11


10. Call Tiddleywinks on 0898 666 666, the story will end happy ever after. All phonecalls charged at £14.72 per minute off peak, £22 peak. Call out charge £76, all major credit cards accepted. If you are poor, find a job or go to 13.


11. Evaluate your conscience.
(a) you are rather 'girlie' .........go to 12
(b) you are a level-headed individual, hoping to do the right thing .....go to 13


12. Call Tiddleywinks and ask if they know a local circus that would like a one-winged flying 'parrot' act in their next summer's schedules.


13. Bash it over the head, but never, never, never admit it in public - you will be treated as a social outcast by the higher ranks of the morality police.

[Apodemus]

Priceless!

Maybe we should all club together to get it published

[Robert / Seattle]

Can you vouch for their quality of life, or are they simple tools in your eyes? A stuffed bird does the same job, doesn't it? Or one of the many captive-bred birds from captive bloodlines, which can actually fly and give much more of a 'wow' factor (as mentioned). I imagine a kid seeing a one-winged hawk would feel pretty sorry for it when they learn it can't actually get off the perch. A full-flying bird is a different matter. There are plenty of imprinted, unreleasable captive-bred birds around.


Well, this one happens to be available unless someone crushes it's skull. The drama of the wing loss is yet another lesson to absorb. I'm at a loss understanding your resistance to an idea that works time and time again.

[Robert / Seattle]

Oh cripes, I think I've caught an infection myself! A little-known virus: Emotivia danthedeborasii! Quick, give me a mercy clubbing!

WACK!!!!!!


NO! Such a waste. We could have cleaned him up a bit and toured him from school to school to educate the children.

[timwootton]

Well, this one happens to be available unless someone crushes it's skull. The drama of the wing loss is yet another lesson to absorb. I'm at a loss understanding your resistance to an idea that works time and time again.
That's why I advocate neck-pulling - the specimen is better preserved.

[deborah4]

you will be treated as a social outcast by the higher ranks of the morality police.

Guess you'd have to include yourself in that rather dubious contingent since you have said you would have tried to save the Kestrel ;)

All that's lefts to be said after this very circular and increasingly silly debate is


STUFF IT!


(only after you're sure a bird is dead and sure it's supposed to be)

[Apodemus]

Guess you'd have to include yourself in that rather dubious contingent since you have said you would have tried to save the Kestrel ;)

All that's lefts to be said after this very circular and increasingly silly debate is


STUFF IT!


(only after you're sure a bird is dead and sure it's supposed to be)

And then paint it.