DSLR Digiscoping...pinheaded questions (Canon v. Nikon etc...).

[kshea]

OK,

I'm on the fence between Nikon and Canon DSLR's for digiscoping with an 85mm Zeiss Diascope with their branded 'Fotoadapter'.

For the last few months I've used my Nikon D70 with this setup and found the following.

1. Not having a cable remote sucks
2. At ISO over 400 I don't like the way the (Nikon) camera handles the image
3. The controls are easy to access and I know how to handle the camera
4. a brighter viewfinder would be nicer
5. No Mirror Lockup option leaves me to ask... do I need mirror lockup?

I've seen on Flickr that there is an overwhelming number of digiscopers who use Canon Rebels (350D, 400D, 450D) but would consider their "prosumer" 40D as well.

With Nikon there is the D80/D200/D90 (that I've looked at)...

I would appreciate anyones feedback who's digiscoped with this method and any of these cameras and if you've used Mirror Lockup while digiscoping.

~K

[Paul Corfield]

The main things I'd go for with a dslr are -

Pixel power, the more the better as this allows for a tighter crop if you need it. I can quite often crop to 100% from any range with the Canon 450D thanks to the 12 million pixels. My last dslr was 6 million pixels and nowhere near as good for cropping due to loss of detail.

Low noise at ISO800, 1600 not so important unless you think you will need it.

Shutter release cable.

Only time I use the mirror lock up is when I'm doing astro photography for pictures of the moon, Jupiter, Saturn etc.

I don't know much about Nikon but those are the points I'd consider.

Out of the Canon cameras I'd say the 450D would be the one that comes out on top. I've tested the 400D and 40D but the 450D does it for me.

Paul.

[RJM]

As for dSLR features to look for that Paul didn't mention, I think Live View would also be near the top.

If you know the D70 then the D90 is the logical replacement. You can use either a cabled shutter release or the infrared remote. The D90's LCD is the best that is available too. Its Active D-Lighting would be useful too.

BUT you might want to see how the new Pano micro 4/3 G1 reviews first. It has many compelling features for digiscoping like size/weight, a swivel LCD, nice 2x crop factor, and no mirror slap to scare off your target.

cheers,
Rick

[Paul Corfield]

Only reason I didn't mention Live View is because I find looking through a view finder much easier and more natural for digiscoping than looking at a screen as more often than not I need to be ready to shoot straight away. All the info I need regarding settings is there to see and I can be making two or three adjustments like shutter speed, focus etc all at once while finding or tracking the bird. For a bird in flight I can pick it up, focus, set shutter speed within literally a couple of seconds. Live View may be of use I suppose on an angled scope or where the target wasn't likely to move or if you sit in a hide etc but it would be bottom of my own list as something to have on a camera. Depends on your personal style of digiscoping I suppose.

Agreed, wait for the new Panasonic G1 to come out next month before buying anything new. If it's any good I'll be trading in my 450D for one.

Paul.

[Ultra Lite]

1. Not having a cable remote sucks

A cable release can be useful However it can tie up one of your hands so I rigged up a foot release so I can keep both hands on the camera at all times. This can be very important when trying to track fast moving wildlife.

2. At ISO over 400 I don't like the way the (Nikon) camera handles the image

Yes good ISO performance is important. Remember your setup will only give you f/12 and often you may be shooting subjects that are in the shade as I am. In addition at these magnifications camera shake needs to be controlled with fast shutter speeds also. I often need to use an ISO 800 or 1600 (with a bit of post processing).

3. The controls are easy to access and I know how to handle the camera

Of course.

4. a brighter viewfinder would be nicer

Because you will be in manual focus try to get a camera with a true pentaprism and not mirrors - very important.

5. No Mirror Lockup option leaves me to ask... do I need mirror lockup?

No. Not for wildlife photography.

Also get a camera with the highest resolution sensor you can afford. My camera has a 14.5mp sensor. This will make cropping much easier.

[JGobeil]

I recently changed my DSLR from a 20D to a 50D. What an improvement ! Paul is right in saying that the more megapixels you have the better you are. The 50D has 15.1. This gives a lot of cropping power and very sharp pictures. Noise is not a problem up to ISO 1600 and is cleaned very nicely with Noise Ninja. Looking at pictures in the high resolution 920,000 px viewfinder is a pleasure.

Live View is a new feature for me and I seldom use it. I truly hate it for digiscoping ! I suffered long enough with a LCD when I was using a P&S camera... IMO, the MAIN benefit of using a DSLR instead of a P&S for digiscoping is the viewfinder and the 50D has a great one, much better than the Rebel.

I sincerely think that the 50D is presently the state of the art DSLR for digiscoping. Get one if you can. Don't get me wrong however, the 40D and Rebel are also great cameras as well as the Nikons.

[kshea]

I'm leaning towards the 400D/450D at this point. The D70 has been a nightmare to learn to digiscope on because it only takes a infrared remote AND for some reason after 60 seconds the camera switches from remote shutter release to a manual release.

The idea of a foot release though is really intriguing. U.L. did you create your own or is it something that exists and I'm not aware of?

As for Live View I've only used it with P&S cameras and haven't found it to be terribly accurate in that regard.

Thanks for all the feedback.

~K

[JGobeil]

I'm leaning towards the 400D/450D at this point. The D70 has been a nightmare to learn to digiscope on because it only takes a infrared remote AND for some reason after 60 seconds the camera switches from remote shutter release to a manual release.

The idea of a foot release though is really intriguing. U.L. did you create your own or is it something that exists and I'm not aware of?

As for Live View I've only used it with P&S cameras and haven't found it to be terribly accurate in that regard.

Thanks for all the feedback.

~K

Instead of a Rebel, I would get a 40D for the better viewfinder. You can get them at a deep discount now that the 50D is out.

I don't really see the need for a foot operated release. I have both a radio and a cable release. I attach one on the control arm of the video head with 2 elastic bands - movement and shutter are then controled with the left hand, focus and camera settings with the right hand. It works fine for me.

However, I don't use it very much. I prefer the regular camera shutter when the light is adequate. The remote is always available and ready when needed.

[kshea]

So it looks like the tradeoffs are:

40D = larger/brighter viewfinder 10.1Mpixel, heavier
450D = Smaller/dimmer viewfinder 12.1Mpixel

Sort of handy I have a brother-in-law with a 40D and the other with a 400D. I think I'll have to take a few days and try them both out.

Thanks again for the feedback.

~K

[RJM]

I'm leaning towards the 400D/450D at this point. The D70 has been a nightmare to learn to digiscope on because it only takes a infrared remote AND for some reason after 60 seconds the camera switches from remote shutter release to a manual release.

Check your manual for Custom Settings/Remote on Duration. With my D40 I can keep the IR remote "active" for up to 15min. It will stay on indefinitely if you don't turn the camera OFF and take a pic at least once every 15min.

I *think* Nikon D90 implements Live View differently than Canon does, so it more useful in a birding scenario. Not to mention Nikons far superior brighter, sharper, and more color accurate LCD! This in itself is nice when you just want to relax and watch instead of taking pics. Just like having a zoom eyepiece. Then there is the D90 24fps video...great for "freeze framing" the action! Not even the D3 can match that speed.

cheers,
Rick

[Ultra Lite]

The idea of a foot release though is really intriguing. U.L. did you create your own or is it something that exists and I'm not aware of?

It's something I made up myself. I hope you understand that by "cable" I mean an electrical cable and not a mechanical cable like the old film cameras used.

It may not be for everyone. I usually set up in spots that I know are good for birds. I'm trying to find and track very small nervous birds like warblers, kinglets, sparrow etc often in low light situations.

I set the camera (a Pentax K20D) to continuous shooting mode. With my left hand I control focus and my right controls pan, tilt and usually ISO while my foot controls shutter release.

It's fast, intuitive, and transparent. Also the camera is set to give me both a visual and auditory indication of when I'm in focus which is very useful when shooting fast at manual focus.

But as I say it may not suit everyone.

BTW don't get too hung up trying to get the perfect setup. Get out in the field and use what you have. Make up your own mind what equipment best suits your needs.

Following is an example of this setup. One of a burst of 8 frames using the foot operated release. Very low light situation.

[kshea]

Rick,

you're the greatest, remote setting for 15 mins was under the expanded CSM menu that I wasn't looking at. Thanks.

The D90 looks really cool but my biggest fear is Nikons at high ISO, they don't do it well in my humble opinion, at the consumer level. I have seen Ken Rockwell's high ISO comparison of the D3/D300/D90/D80 etc and the images look great, but to my eyes Canon is able to hold a sharper image at higher ISO's (please correct me if I'm wrong as it will save me headache+cash to stay with Nikon).

~K

[RJM]

Glad I could help.

If you compare RAW ouput pretty much all the latest models from the top OEMs will be equally sharp. But if you compare in-camera processed default JPEG output, you will see Nikon has chosen a somewhat "softer" processing scheme while Canon for example, has chosen to go with a high (and a little heavy handed if you ask me) sharpening look. JPEG output is purely an artistic asthetic difference between makers and you can usually "equallize" the output to your taste by adjusting the camera settings. FWIW, Pentax dSLRs seem to default to the most "neutral" JPEG output to my eye.

Whichever model you decide, I think you will be happy. Each brand brings its own unique benefit to digiscoping. I was all set to get the Canon 450D, then Nikon released the D90. I was determined to get the D90 but then Panasonic announced the G1. And so it goes...

cheers,
Rick

[kshea]

I spent a few hours yesterday evening with the 400D and was pleased with the results. Fine focus is still somewhat of a problem and I think the next step would be to try and replace the screen in the viewfinder.

Here is a sample, thanks again for the feedback.

~K

[horukuru]

that's a nice one kshea and good details on the black bird itself :)

[kshea]

Thanks!

My results have really improved by switching cameras. I can at least shoot in aperture priority with the Canon now (only manual with the Nikon D70) and I can meter through the scope which I couldn't do before. On top of that, shooting at higher ISO's (I rarely shot over 200 with the Nikon) doesn't have me scared anymore.

If you take a peak at my photostream on flickr you can see there is a progression in clarity. I'm really happy with the new camera.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kmichaelshea/

~K

[Neil]

The two main advantages of Liveview with the Nikons ( I'm not sure about the Canons ) are-
1. you can Auto Focus with the lens - both the 20/2.8 D and the 18-55/zoom (kit lens) will auto focus in Liveview. For those who are "sightingly impaired" this is a godsend.
2. you can digitally enhance the image to fine focus in Manual Mode. I find this very useful for waders out on the mudflats where it's difficult to see enough detail to focus accurately.
Of course the D90 has video too which is a nice to have.
Another advantage of the Nikons is that you have a lot of legacy lenses to choose from for digiscoping. My Nikon 20/2.8 D is a wonderful lens.
The thread on the D90 is http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=124846
Neil.