10x Promaster and Frontier

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Has anyone tried these two in 10x, what are they like? As good as 8x format?

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74 views nobody tried 10x promaster or frontier.

[Kevin Purcell]

74 views nobody tried 10x promaster or frontier.

Apparently ... the only ones who have posted here have 8x.

[DHB]

Any new NEWS??? I am VERY tempted to try the 10X but the 330ft FOV has me less enthusiastic.

The 8x's are Superb.

[Tero]

How much fov do you expect in a 10x42? Check the competition.

[DHB]

IIRC - Leica/Swaro = 360ft

But more important is the apparent FOV which on the alpha's always "looks" wider than any Japaneze model. To me anyway......

[DHB]

I'll take my beating now please. I was wrong. The alpha's are 330 and the others are 315.
I know in 8x the difference in the FOV on the Leica/Swaro seems more than what is advertised in feet.

[Kevin Purcell]

6ish degrees is typical for a 10x. 6.5 degrees would be considered wide.

330 feet is 6.3 degrees. The same as my 8x30 Zeiss Conquest.

Obviously someone is going to have to order a 10x try them and return them if they don't like them (Hawke let you do that and CameraLandNY too for the Promaster).

After all that's how FrankD found that they were decent bins ;)

[DHB]

I'm close but honestly hate to order something on those pretenses. I like to know I'm 90% sure I will keep them.

Dave

[Kevin Purcell]

Not a pretense ... it's a sales tactic. It removes some of the risk in buying the product so makes you more likely to buy it. And customers like it too. The product is returned as new with all bits so there's no loss of product either. Just the cost of shipping.

I think Tero, FrankD and myself (and perhaps quite a few others) avail ourselves of it from time to time.

Recently I've not been too successful though ... in the last two months I've had 6 purchases and only one keeper (a Pentax DCF HS 8x36) though one more of those returns will bring another bin that will be a keeper: the rather unique Pentax Papillio.

I think my lifetime average of keepers buying from stores is about 50%. I've been more successful picking and buying pre-owned bins ;)

Check the small print if you go this route. Eagle Optics makes it very easy (they don't even charge you for their shipping). CameraLandNY are a bit more pragmatic (they do!).

[Tero]

Wait till that closet shelf is full. Then your return rate will go to 80%. But I try to bring some business their way. I returned a binocular, exchanged it for a tripod base.

[Kevin Purcell]

Wait till that closet shelf is full. Then your return rate will go to 80%. But I try to bring some business their way. I returned a binocular, exchanged it for a tripod base.

I don't think Eagle Optics lost money on me this year ;)

[BinoBoy]

I was out Christmas shopping tonight and discovered that Mike's Camera store here in the Denver, Colorado area carries the Promaster Infinity Elite ELX's. At good prices, too! The 8x42 are $400 and the 10x42 are $450. I only had a few seconds to try them out. They seemed very sharp, as every else has said, but I wasn't that impressed with the focusing. Eye relief was fine with my glasses with the cups down, a pleasant surprise since the 10x42 supposedly have only 15.2 mm. I preferred the 10x42. The apparent field of view (the image circle) was larger and I had no problem holding them steady. Overall the ergonomics and build quality were great except for the slow focus. I wish I could give you a more detailed review of the 10x42, but the saleslady was hovering over me and they were very busy due to the holiday.

Mike's is a fairly small local chain, but they do have a website (www.mikescamera.com).

Here are some links to save you searching:

http://www.mikescamera.com/products.html#DHE:Specsheet:Id:376610:Section:Spec s

http://www.mikescamera.com/products.html#DHE:Specsheet:Id:376611:Section:Spec s


I've got no business buying new bins right now, but I'm sorely tempted at these prices! Mike's is a reputable company, but I've never ordered from their website since I can just go to the store. It looks like they ship internationally.

Hope this helps!

[DHB]

I have some 10x's coming. We'll see............

[Kevin Purcell]

Looking forward to your write up, DHB.

[DHB]

Guaranteed it won't be as good to read as yours, Steve's or Frank's but will give my honest opinion....

Dave

[Kevin Purcell]

I have some 10x's coming. We'll see............

Did they arrive?

Did you try them out?

[DHB]

Weather, work and Christmas has put a dampner on testing but did get a few minutes to test drive the 10x42 Promaster vs my Leica 10x42 BA. This particular Leica "I" believe is a very good sample but can't confirm as I don't take the time or have the knowledge to do a star test, etc.
To the point-

The 10x PM seem to be a little further behind the Alpha compared to the 8X. The 8X PM seem to be every bit as good as any 8X bino I have owned which I only have lately become more a fan of fullsize 8X. For a long time I was a 10x42 or 8x32 advocate but I have owned plenty of late and still have a 8.5x42 EL.

The 10X has a nice wide FOV and is sharp and bright. Maybe just a tick behind the Leica in resolution. What I find is that I fiddle with the PM to get an object in perfect focus where the Leica it just snaps right there. Once focused they are very close.
Edge sharpness was good in the PM.

One other item - In 5-10 degree weather the PM focus is very tight compared to the Leica. IIRC Leica does not use grease in the focus mechanism for this very reason. It felt about the same in the cold as it does in summer. Nice although not butter smooth.


Not scientific like some but.....

Dave

[Tero]

Well, it was pretty much what I expected to hear. I do not expect them to beat the Pentax ED 10x at twice the price, but may be very close, closer than to the Leica.

[DHB]

I have never had a set of ED's in hand but my experience with multiple set's of SP's that the ED's better be WAY better to best the Promasters. To me these are easily better than any SP's I have owned. The ONE and only thing I like about the SP's is what seems to me is very good color saturation. Just seems the greens and reds just stand out.

Dave

[Tero]

There may be some quality issues with the Pentax 10x, I have seen two store units, and one was better than the other. I sort of prefer the Pentax to Viper at 10x, at 8x I do not see much difference.

[Kevin Purcell]

Well, it was pretty much what I expected to hear. I do not expect them to beat the Pentax ED 10x at twice the price, but may be very close, closer than to the Leica.

You should try a set of Promasters, Tero.

My experience is that they will beat the Pentax EDs unless the Pentax EDs are really, really good. And given where they seem to rank I suspect they may be below the EDs. Though I'd love to see a head to head evaluation of these (armchair speculation is easy!).

Thanks for the write up, DHB, despite the weather and the time of year (I though that might have something to do with it!). If you get a chance for a closer apprasal (especially when activley birding) I'd be interested to hear it.

I can also see your point about the focus: the PMs do seem to need the right focus but when the 8x PMs are on focus they are very sharp. I can imagine the 10x depth of field/depth of focus is smaller so they need to be even more on the dot. I wonder if this drove the choice of gear ratio for the focus control? Faster focus would be nicer for general use but would it end up being so fiddly as to be annoying (especially with an imprefections like backlash ... I don't detect any but I could imagine that being a limiting factor). Just another of the many bin design choices.

[Steve C]

You should try a set of Promasters, Tero.

I can also see your point about the focus: the PMs do seem to need the right focus but when the 8x PMs are on focus they are very sharp. I can imagine the 10x depth of field/depth of focus is smaller so they need to be even more on the dot. I wonder if this drove the choice of gear ratio for the focus control? Faster focus would be nicer for general use but would it end up being so fiddly as to be annoying (especially with an imprefections like backlash ... I don't detect any but I could imagine that being a limiting factor). Just another of the many bin design choices.

Tero
Kevin is right, you need to try a set of Promasters. Seems like you have hundreds of posts going through binoculars looking for the ultimate low cost, good binocular. When it shows up in plain sight in the form of the Promaster, you give it the cold shoulder. Not complaining or flaming, but an observation. Lord knows I went through more than my fair share of "optical stuff", so that's common to lots of us. I'd be interested in your opinion of them. It seems to me to be the ideal one choice binocular for the serious user with some budget constraints.

While the Promaster does require some fiddling (for lack of a better term) to get the diopter adjustment right the first time, I have yet to have to fiddle at all with mine outside the initial set up. It does not have the annoying "diopter drift" sometimes seen on "almost there" value price binoculars.

[Tero]

Well, I was taken off track by the Viper opportunity. So now I have my usual dilemma, if I get the 8x ProMaster, I have to get rid of the Viper, they will be useless. They actually are very similar to SP level Pentax.

But the 10x ProMater is in the plans all along. Somebody buy my scope please! Need funds.

More at binocular ramblings thread.

[FrankD]

Hmm, interesting but not surprising. I found much the same thing with the 10x and 8x Vortex Razors. I loved the 8x version but was less than thrilled with the 10x. I wonder if this is a question of needing tighter manufacturing tolerances for the higher magnification or just that the 8x42 versions of these binoculars are more "optimized and tweeked" for overall performance.

[DHB]

Frank - I'm sure your correct plus the fact that any minor inferiorities are more evident when magnafied by 10.

[DHB]

I mentioned this before and am still wondering.

What if Promaster decides two years from now to drop there ELX (top end ED glass bino) and after this mine takes on water. I have limited experience to draw from. What do you think would happen? Promaster says "so sorry" or ????

[Steve C]

Dave,

I suppose we all wonder about the warranty on things we buy with sometimes hard to come by cash. That is certainly a draw for me to Leupold and Vortex. On the other hand, I'm a certified cheapskate as well. When I saw the sort of optical quality I could get for the price of a Promaster, that pretty well decided me. I will use it somewhat judiciously. Also I tend not to have a personal history with binocular failure. Except for that time I managed to run over my cased Monarchs....|=). |I also decided that even if Promaster was not able to make a long term run with that technology, somebody else (Vortex, Leupold, or whoever) would. Anyway I decided on mine on an optics quality/price value basis. I guess time will tell the tale. As a benefit, I've looked at a lot of different binoculars in comparison to that Promaster that I likely would not have looked at without having bought it. So I guess that has some value as well.

[DHB]

Steve - My decision process and past experience mirrors yours. I just sold my 8.5ELs but will keep my Leica Trinovid 10x42.

[Kevin Purcell]

I mentioned this before and am still wondering.

What if Promaster decides two years from now to drop there ELX (top end ED glass bino) and after this mine takes on water. I have limited experience to draw from. What do you think would happen? Promaster says "so sorry" or ????

I think this is other side of the Promaster argument.

The optics are very, very good. And the brand will be around too I suspect. They're rebranders, bying stuff from ODMs, so unless the financial crunch takes them out.

But their optics have been a crap shoot in the past. I've tried two generations of them. And there's no guarantee that they'll have good models in the future. They could have just got lucky with a good Chinese ODM turning out a excellent bin rather than having "great taste". But that may be the wave of the future so good Chinese bins may be plentiful in the future. Or not.

The price trade-off is significant. If they last 5 years then that's about the same yearly cost as 17 year old Zeiss (or a 20 year old Swaro) though even at the end of 20 years the Zeiss and Swaro still has some asset value. That said so long as they don't break (or fog) the optics will still be as good so the PMs should have some value.

In fact even with the top end makers you don't know if their going to be around in 5 years (of the four I'd put my money on Nikon though they may be around but out of the sport optics business).

Who knows in 10 years we may all be using porros again ;)

[FrankD]

What if Promaster decides two years from now to drop there ELX (top end ED glass bino) and after this mine takes on water. I have limited experience to draw from. What do you think would happen? Promaster says "so sorry" or ????

Good point. I look at this issue from two perspectives. One, even if they drop the ELX I have a feeling they will honor whatever warranty issues arise. If not, and you bought the glass from Doug at CLNY, then I have a feeling he would do his best to make the issue right for you.

Two, not to sound negative, but if the binoculars did crap out in a few years then I wouldn't be too upset as you only paid 1/5th the price of the current Ultravids or ELs.... ;)

[Tero]

As I alluded to in some other thread, I will probably not find out if the Pentax ED 10x43, now selling for over 1000, is better. I suspect these two will be very similar.

I started of actually with Nikon Sporter 10x36 (dim), then Nikon Monarch 10x42, then Zeiss Conquest 10x40. Somehow I never could get used to the Zeiss, I used the Monarchs.

Then I had the Monarchs and the Pentax. The Pentax SP in fact was not sharper in the middle, much the same. Overall it beat the Monarchs. I may still use them, they have a good warranty.

So here I am with the Promaster 10x. It is better than the Pentax. I had some dipter issues...I have those with nearly all 10x models...but settled on a setting with the Pentax. I am comfortable with them. With Promaster I did not even need to mess with the diopter. Close to zero does it.

The Promaster are bright. I have no issues with them so far. Eye cups are solid. I can get a tiny bit of blackouts if I try hard. There is some stray light. Don't look at light bulbs and suns. CA is minimal.

I followed a couple of bald eagles over the river. One was pretty close. I kept up with them, not needing to refocus until it was over the river and small.

They seem solid enough. Leather case. Strap is on the wimpy side...not the most elegant looking, I may change that.

Brightness: I could not decide that they were brighter than the Pentax. They were not dimmer either.

I may be happy withe these for quite a while. I think there is really nothing under 1000 dollars that can beat these. Pentax ED maybe. Minox maybe. Meopta?
http://www.eagleoptics.com/binoculars/meopta/meopta-meostar-10x42-binocular

[FrankD]

Nice review Tero. I am glad to see that the optical impressiveness maintained itself with the 10x model. I was afraid it was not going to be as good as the 8x in comparison to its competitors.

[Tero]

I had some time for field testing, and 10 year birds, including a barred owl.

Focus knob on Promaster is a bit stiff in cold weather. I had the Pentax 10x43 SP to compare. Very similar in many respects. If I have to send either for repair, I can easily switch back and forth between these two. Brightness was about the same on the cloudy day. The bright yellow spot on a Gold Crowned Kinglet was bright on either.

I had no problem carrying around the neck 1-2 h with the strap it came with. It hangs niceley, straps attach to sides as they should. I never had to readjust the diopter, never touched it. I have problems like that usually.

The sun was not in sight, so nor real stray light today.

[FrankD]

Hmm, your comment about the stiffness of the focuser in cold weather has me curious. I noticed much the same about the Zen Ray. I wonder if this is an issue with this particular design or if it is just sample variation.

[Tero]

Today was better, about 25-30 degrees, I located a Northern Shrike, a lifer, twice with it. But it was so far away I could see no detail, so had to use a scope at 45x to make the final ID.

I am quite used to it now. I seem to forget I am using it, I think I am still using the Pentax SP. That might indicate the Pentax, not ED glass, is essentially the same for birding in the field.

The same thing would happen if I used the top of the line alphas, though I think in poor light there might be some advantage. But I would look at birds, not make note of the optics.

[FrankD]

I just focused my attention on the focusing mechanism of the Zen Ray before logging on to the computer. My particular unit has loosened up nicely through regular use. At this point I cannot really tell a difference between it and most of my other bins.

[falcondude]

I think Zen-Ray's extra large focus knob may take a few minutes to get used to it if you are used to smaller focus knob. My focusing knob is silky smooth. The large knob is actually more comfortable to adjust.

[Kevin Purcell]

I just focused my attention on the focusing mechanism of the Zen Ray before logging on to the computer. My particular unit has loosened up nicely through regular use. At this point I cannot really tell a difference between it and most of my other bins.

I agree with this too. I'm tracking the new 8x unit for this but I noticed the 10x I had (as I mentioned in the review) started off with a "problem" which disappeared and the mechanism seemed to loosen up.

I do wonder how well they will work in the cold. I notice my one stiffening a little when birding with a bin packed in a bag at 70F indoors then taken out later and cooling to 40F as I used it.

[Tero]

40 degrees does very little to these lubricants
they get stiff at 20-30, closer to 20

[FrankD]

Dare I leave a few pairs out overnight tonight to see what effect temperature has on each of them?

....with protection of course.

;)

[Kevin Purcell]

Bag them and put them in the fridge. That'll take you down to mid 30s or so.

Bag them and put them in the freezer for a more wintery day simulation.

The bagging is just to reduce external condensation and icing.

I note that when Peter Dunne reviews a bin he sticks it in the freezer and then drops it in warm water as a leak test. He has also been known to both drop review bins onto hard surfaces and throw bins in a big arc onto soil surfaces. Not sure I want to try that with my bins though!

[FrankD]

He has also been known to both drop review bins onto hard surfaces and throw bins in a big arc onto soil surfaces. Not sure I want to try that with my bins though!

Uh, yeah, I'll pass. ;)

As for the other two, I would not have a problem doing either though it is supposed to be fairly cold tomorrow night and Wednesday with wind chills down into the negative double digits. If that isn't a test then I don't know what is.

[Kevin Purcell]

Uh, yeah, I'll pass. ;)

As for the other two, I would not have a problem doing either though it is supposed to be fairly cold tomorrow night and Wednesday with wind chills down into the negative double digits. If that isn't a test then I don't know what is.

So it's colder outside than in your freezer ... I do love temperate climates ;)

[FrankD]

Tonight it isn't...well, maybe it is with this Nor-Easter going through. Tomorrow night it most certainly will be. I will prepare a setup to test just this issue.

They all have valid manufacturer's warranties though right?

;)