Look Familiar?

[henry link]

A variant from Orion appearing in December. The cheapest yet with ED glass, but curiously no claim of waterproofness.

http://www.telescope.com/control/product/~category_id=binocular_birding/~pcategory=binoculars/~product_id=09256

[elkcub]

Henry,

I was just looking at those in the catalog that arrived today. I'm planning to check them out at my local Orion dealer. Poor Swarovski. But, then, I'm an SLC kinda guy. ;)

Ed

[Sancho]

Specs give the "linear field of view" as 424.4 lbs......Huh?

I like the way they´re described as having "unique open-bridge design". Not very unique anymore, is it? Do you think they´re made by the same people as are making Hawke and Promaster equivalents?

[Kevin Purcell]

You omitted the price ...

Orion ULX 8x42 ED Binoculars #09256

$269.95

WTF!

Orion ULX 8x42 ED Binoculars
High-contrast extra-low dispersion (ED) objective lenses
Fully multi-coated optics with phase-coated BAK-4 roof prisms
Unique "open-hinge" bridge design, rubber-armored shock-resistant magnalium body
8.1-deg field of view, 7 foot close focus, 17.2mm eye relief
Captive objective lens caps, single-piece eyepiece cap, and soft carry-case included

There are quite a few problems in the specs too:

the 424 lb FOV that Sancho pointed out
the 6mm exit pupil (last time I tried it 42/8 was 5.25)
"Unique "open-hinge" bridge design": a interesting and novel (perhaps unique) use of the word "unique". Unlike all the other open-bridge Chinese and Austrian bins, I presume.
"magnalium body" (that's unique!)


The warranty is different just 1 year (rather than 10 years for the Hawke and lifetime no-fault with a charge (?) for the Promaster).

Unlike the Vanguard EDT these are really ED for $270.

I recognize that 17.2mm eye releif too and the focusing knob design too. So these could be made by Bosma (see the other Bosma ED thread).

http://www.bosma.com.cn/en/productgn_info.asp?id=978

That 17.2mm ER also matches Promaster but with a 8.1 degree FOV.

Curiously I just noticed that the Hawke Frontier ED have an ER of 16.6 and that's the same as the OTHER Bosma open-bridge ED bin.

http://www.bosma.com.cn/en/productgn_info.asp?id=980

Are Hawke, Promaster, Orion, RSPB HD all made by Bosma?

There must be more coming. Celestron?

There is a 10x too. Without the 10x tax -- they're the same price as the 8x

Magnification 10x
Optical diameter 42mm
Field of view - angular 6.5-deg
Field of view - linear 341.3
Apparent field of view 65.0-deg
Eye relief 15.2mm


At that price is going to put the cat amongst the rock doves. ;)

[Steve C]

Now it seems we need to define "ED" glass. These sure look like the Promaster et. al. Hard to believe that Orion could nearly halve the price with the same glass quality of the Promaster. When does some more widely reconized "name brand" pick this up?

[Kevin Purcell]

Now it seems we need to define "ED" glass. These sure look like the Promaster et. al. Hard to believe that Orion could nearly halve the price with the same glass quality of the Promaster. When does some more widely reconized "name brand" pick this up?

"ED" is already defined: Abbe Number > 80

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?p=1311012
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=72416

Perhaps they're just not as greedy as the other brands. Pile 'em high; Sell them cheap?

Wait, didn't we have a thread on this ;)

[Steve C]

OK, I guess what I was getting at is this. We see all sorts of binoculars in various price ranges advertising the presence of some high definition glass. It may be called ED, HD, EX, XD, FL or some other nomenclature that may mean nothing outside some marketing ploy or it may signify something to somebody who knows the difference in the glass types. I figure not all of this glass in all of the binoculars that advertise it, is the same quality, or the same type, or even of the same amount or in the same place in the optical system. Hence different price and quality ranges for "ED" glass.

[teamgs]

I saw these and was very tempted, but I really wanted a porro, so I went with the Nikon SE.

I can only compare one type of "low end ED glass", since I have only owned one. My Celestron 80ED shows no visible CA when viewing (daylight or night), and only the very slightest fringing on the brightest stars when imaging with exposures of longer than 8 minutes or so, with my CCD astro camera. The Orion ED80 garners similar reviews.

For the money, I am extremely pleased.

Again, this is an 80mm scope, not binoculars, but for the price of the Orion bins I may have to take a look. :D

Regards,

Gary

[Kevin Purcell]

It's in the same place ... the best (and only sennsible) place to put the low dispersion glass is in the objective. That's where it reduces most of the color (if you don't suppress CA there then you can't get rid of it further down the optical train).

The other design enhancement is to use Lanthanum Crown (LaK) in elements of the eyepiece to reduce eyepiece stray color (CA).

This is all part of the problem of not disclosing designs (or even as you point out glass types) except in vague ways which are pretty much always marketing ploys.

But ED really does mean something (and is limited to very few glass types and calcium fluoride). And that might be one reason others don't use ED. I'm always rather caution when someone fails to the the term ED or extra-low dispersion in the spec of a bin. But as real ED glass becomes cheaper I think this will happen less.

So in the hypothetical "ideal" bin you might hope to see say a 3 element apochromatic (or 4 element Dialyt) objective including ED glass and an (perhaps 5 element) eyepiece incorporating LaK and an aspherical element to keep the field flat. Sounds a lot like the Pentax ED bins ;)

[NWBirder]

Although binocular may have the same outside look, what's inside is what really matters. I suspect this binocular might just copy the style from Promaster Elite with different optics inside. Only when someone get a copy in December and test it out, we will find out if it is a real deal, or just another "junk" from China. Frank, we are looking up to you on this.;)

[henry link]

I doubt that the Orion binocular is a copy of the Promaster from a different source. The bridge parts look identical, so I think it's likely that the same manufacturer makes both. It could be a cheaped down version or Orion may just have a pricing advantage since it's both the importer and the retailer.

Not much point in trying to track down what type of glass is used in any of these variants. There is apparently an "ED" type glass (H-FK61) available in China now said to be no more expensive than normal glass, so why shouldn't it turn up in cheap binoculars? What matters is whether a particular objective design using some type of ED glass actually has less longitudinal chromatic aberration than to a conventional objective. We're not helpless to determine that for ourselves. In normal use it's nearly impossible to see longitudinal CA in any 8-10x42 binocular, but it's easy to see if the magnification is significantly boosted. All that takes is placing a small binocular or scope behind the eyepiece of the test binocular. At 64x (an 8x bin placed behind the eyepiece of another 8x bin) it will be obvious whether or not the "ED" glass is accomplishing anything.

[Tero]

If someone checks out the 8x here, I might then be interested in the 10x version. What is the Orion return policy?

[Kevin Purcell]

http://www.telescope.com/control/view/page?p=custservice#returns

Returns & Exchanges

Merchandise may be returned in new (mint) condition within 30 days of receipt for a full refund (less shipping/handling). If you'd like to apply your return credit to a new order, we'd be happy to do that. Please include this information with your return form.

We must receive the returned merchandise within 30 days of the date you received it. All items must be in new (mint) condition. Returned items cannot show evidence of use or wear, dirt, or blemishes of any kind. Merchandise must be returned in its original packaging and should include all supplied materials, instructions, warranty cards, original accessories, hardware, and any software provided.

[Steve C]

Speaking of looking familiar. I wonder who the Bushnell Excursion ED manufacturer is. The Excursion looks very similar to the Promaster family. Not identical to the detail the Orion appears to show, but similar enough to maybe be from the same OEM (maybe). I did notice what I thought of when I had the Excursion EX 8x36 in my hands that that was what I thought a smaller version of the ELX ED would/should/could feel like. Now back to the store to see if there is an Excursion EX 8x42 on display. I was more "focused" on comparing some other glass to the Promaster, so I never thought to look for an EX 8x42.

[Kevin Purcell]

Steve: our previous "tame Chinese OEM" on the Hawke thread implied (rather strongly) that the Vortex Diamondbacks and the Bushnell Excursion are the "same" bin made by the same group (i.e. his OEM, I presume). And t same is true of the Excursion and Excusions EX (not ED yet ;) ) with same/related optics in different cases.

So that said that his OEM makes some Bushnell, Vortex and Hawke. Plus he seemed to have made measurements on the Promaster. That could be another OEM or it could be his. Of course he never answer my direct question of who he worked for ;)

Another point is the Repellmax coatings on the Promaster. Bushnell has been working on these coatings and is licensing them to other manufactuers (including Zeiss ... I presume Bushnell got the patent in first or it's a cross-licensing deal to avoid litigation!). If the factory is already set up to add the coatings for Bushnell it makes it easy to add them for other OEMed bins (and Bushnell in the Zeiss licensing announcement said they were looking to license it broadly).

I think there is one Chinese OEM (who might not actually be making bins but just making enclosures) is making this Mg open bridge case.

Then others make the knobs (that knob design appears on several bins including the Bushnell Elites I think).

So you can expect to see these bits change (every brander wants to look a bit different though most of the difference is in the rubber armor molds and the badging - those are easy to change).

But of course only the rebranders (in the US) and the OEM/ODMs actually know.

But given the same ER numbers keep popping up I think there is a lot of shared optical design here.

[Tero]

It may take a few months for me to sell some other junk. I am getting clutter in the closet and under the bed..mostly scopes and tripods. I really hate tripods. I have three.

[Steve C]

Kevin,

Had that thread in my mind. Now, what I'd like is to see the Promaster ELX ED optics show up in the Bushnell Excursion EX 8x36 package. I'd own something like that pretty quick. I wouldn't particularly care if it was a Promaster, Hawke, Orion, Vortex, or a Bushnell. I really like the Promaster, but there are times when a little smaller would be really nice. While I'm wishing, I'd really like a 7x36.

[FrankD]

NW,

Sorry bud. I am pretty much tired of all of these open bridge style ED glass bins. Now if they make one the size, shape and weight of something like a Pentax SP or Nikon Monarch (without giving up the wide field of view, brightness or sharpness) then I will be the first in line with a credit card. For now the Orion can be somebody else's baby.

;)

[Tero]

Back to waiting for the Meopta, Frank?

[Kevin Purcell]

Bosma are making one ED with a "closed-bridge" but I don't see many taking it up (except the RSPB HD).

And it seems if any of them make 32mm ED bin that "closed-bridge" is much more sensible design: I want some place to put my fingers. Though I could see them making a 36mm OB (like the Bushnell Excursion EX) as they seem to already have the enclosures designed.

I suspect after a couple of years well see open-bridges like fins on cars: an interesting idea taken to an extreme.

Bring on the 32mm and 36mm Chinese EDs. In 2009 perhaps.

[Tero]

I think it was a momentary idea with me. I sort of don't like these no name companies in the long run. I am better of saving up about 800 with something like the 8x32 Meopta in mind.

[FrankD]

Maybe for now Tero. I have not heard much anything about the 32 mm Meopta lately so I do not have my hopes up. I could go ahead and order one and the return it if I do not find it to my tastes but I have been down that road alot lately and the return shipping is starting to make a dent in my budget. ;)

[Kevin Purcell]

So I was thinking the ship date for the Orion ULX 8x42 ED Binoculars was Dec 14th. Just a couple of days away. People will be getting them in their Christmas stocking and wondering when they'll be able to try them out.

So ...

I was going to ask if anyone has ordered them but I visited the Orion site today and see the ship date is now 05/03/09 (i.e. May 3rd 2009).

http://www.telescope.com/control/product/~category_id=binocular_birding/~pcategory=binoculars/~product_id=09256

Here's hoping no one was counting on the Big Red Guy to bring them one.

[Sancho]

This constant release-date delay is becoming a form of slow torture. Isn´t there anything in the UN Declaration on HR about this? "No binocular-obsessed persons shall be subject to delayed release-dates of ED optics" or something?

[Kevin Purcell]

Sancho: I think this is the first slip for this bin. But it is quite a big one.

Given the other two bins we suspect are in the same class are already out (Hawke and Promaster) there one might wonder if this is not a production problem but a finance issue.

To make up some numbers: Orion would have to pony up the cash for 10,000 or more production run (or a promise to buy a large number ... perhaps the ODM wants the money up front?). If they were paying the ODM $100 per item then that's $1,000,000 needed to complete the deal. I'm pretty sure you'd do that with a loan or line of credit. And those have become difficult to get even for well established companies.

I suspect the delay is different from the Swaro or Nikon delays which seem more "technical" given the gossip surrounding them.

[ceasar]

Kevin,
I'd be very surprised if Orion buys 10,000 binoculars of any one kind for it's catalog sales. But I suspect you are right when you say it is a finance issue.
Bob

[Kevin Purcell]

Just a guess (that may be more typical of a more "mass" bin) but to tool the production line the ODMs like a commitment before they start up.

[UTCbirder]

the availability of these bins have been pushed back to 5/3/09, according to the latest on Orion's webpage.

[Kevin Purcell]

And the next step ... I guess it gets worse!

The product page for the Orion ULX ED

http://www.telescope.com/control/product/~category_id=binocular_standard/~pcategory=binoculars/~product_id=09256

and is now marked as "This item is discontinued and is no longer available for pre-order"

Might want to strike that one from the list. Shame it was a good price.

[Steve C]

I posted this on another thread, but it works here too. The new "Zen from Zen-Ray" (what a name |:S|) . Looks and specs like an almost identical triplet to the Promaster/Hawke.

http://www.zen-ray.com/zen.shtml

[Kevin Purcell]

I posted this on another thread, but it works here too. The new "Zen from Zen-Ray" (what a name |:S|) . Looks and specs like an almost identical triplet to the Promaster/Hawke.

One commonality I've seen is they all are very like the Hawke and a little different from the Promaster. The PM seems (so far) to be the one off. But the others all match closely on multiple specs and in the case of the Zen Ray ED it looks very similar too.

They all could come from the same ODM or even the same designer and only differ in the size of the field stop. But the PM went with a 7.5 degree FOV and has a few other minor differences in the EP. All the others (Hawke, Orion ULX, Zen Ray ED) share the same specs.

[FrankD]

I wonder why they decided to cancel it all of a sudden?

[NWBirder]

maybe they price it below the cost to capture the market, but the economic situation does not allow them to burn through the cash?

[Kevin Purcell]

I wonder why they decided to cancel it all of a sudden?

I speculated on the first delay being possibly financial (with a rough loan/line of credit estimate) and I know commercial line of credit has become very difficult to get (even for previous regular customers with good balance sheet and good prospects). The banks have gone from throwing loans at everyone to the other extreme.

I suspect they may have moved from delaying that ("We may give you the line of credit in April") to "We can't see giving you a big line of credit in the near future. How would 20% of your previous LOC do?". Well it wouldn't as you need a minimum buy so you kill the line.

For the geeky, keep an eye on LIBOR for a hint when this credit crunch might loosen up.

I think we might see similar problem with other optical companies that rely on LOC to aid their cash flow in their business.

[FrankD]

So does that mean that they never produced any units?

[Kevin Purcell]

So does that mean that they never produced any units?

Their website did have a picture that looked like a real picture of a real bin not a CAD rendering.

I suspect they got to the prototype stage and then must have decided not to go ahead.

I wonder if they chose a "generic" rubber armor pattern (i.e. just like the Hawke) that would save the cost of making injection molds for the armor (a big capital cost). So perhaps they were just "badge engineering"

They would be collectable if they exist (like those Red Leica prototypes ;) )

[FrankD]

Hmm, sounds like it might be a good time to keep an eye on Ebay and Craigslist.

;)