large observation binoculars?

[mark22c]

does anybody use them or prefer them to a spotting scope for extended observation?

regards mark

[mark22c]

the reason i ask is i've been out today trying the new spotter and now have a bad case of squintyeyeitus and am starting to wonder if it would be worth carting a pair of 16x80 or 20x80 bins out with me just for the extra comfort of useing both eyes, the bins weigh in at around 2.4 kgs so almost twice your average scope weight but im still wanting a pair?

[Alexis Powell]

the reason i ask is i've been out today trying the new spotter and now have a bad case of squintyeyeitus

The solution is to keep both eyes open while scoping. Get yourself an eyepatch if necessary.

--AP

[mark22c]

hi alex, i've heard about doing that and i do tend to cover one eye when using a scope. but i still feel the need to use both eyes. i have owned big bins in the past including 15x70's and 25x100's, i used to take them down on the cliffs to watch the boats and sea life as well as use them for astronomy instead of a telescope which i sold because it felt awkward using just one eye, i just seem to get more enjoyment using both eyes with bins as it just feels more natural.
a couple pairs i've been looking at are the opticron observation and WP observation 80mm bins in 15, 16, 20 or possibly 30x but more likely 20x they'de get used for astronomy as well.
im quite prepared to cart them in a backpack and then just sit with them set up in my favorite spots for hours. i just wondered if anyone else uses big bins and does this for the same reason.

cheers mark

[Tero]

Some people prefer an angled scope so the useless eye can stare at the ground where nothing moves.

[mark22c]

maybe im not used to using it, i seem fine for 5 or 10 mins but soon get "tired" of looking through a scope for extended periods. but i can look through a pair of bins all day on a tripod as long as theres something worth looking at of course.

[Tero]

I have seen people mess with eye cups and find some compromise, but quite often it is not as comfortable as binoculars. But often it just needs getting used to.

[Sancho]

Hi Mark, it´s something I thought about some time ago, leading to this thread:http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=71965&highlight=observation+seawatching
Have a look through it, there are some good suggestions. I never quite got round to getting obs bins or large mag IS bins, I just accepted the one-eye scope problem. When seawatching, I use a pirate patch, but not so tight that it doesn´t let some stray light in, or press on the eye...you want your eye to respond quickly to the increased light if you flip the patch up and use your bins. I definitely find scope eyepieces with bigger ocular diameters kinder to the eyes. Best of Luck, tell us which way you jump.

[OwenM]

I'm not a scope person, myself. Bought a Pentax 12.5x50 that I use on a lightweight tripod a lot, and sold the little Leupold 15-30x scope that I used mostly at 15x. Much more comfortable with the binoculars.

I'd like a pair of bins with higher magnification for some extremely amateur astronomy, and would like to be able to use them for terrestrial viewing, as well. The weight and expense of a "real" tripod is actually what's kept me from it so far. The nice rigs seem to be around $5-600.
I've been eyeing the Garrett Optical Signature 22x85 HD-WP for awhile, but can't see dumping $1000 into a binocular/tripod setup that is so limited in use-especially not while I've got Swarovski EL on the brain. Not sure if I'd be happy with most of the cheap options, but have thought about getting Garrett's Gemini 20x80 UltraLight since it's under 4lbs. so I could use my existing tripod, and only costs $179(and certainly beats out an imaginary 22x85 HD-WP).

[Fernando np]

Hi Mark,
In a profesional use you have to put limits at the time looking through a spotting scope, whatever you use. Your sight pays the consecuences. On the other hand with excellent binoculars, it looks possible to using them for hours, day after day.

[Steve C]

Mark,

I have not ever been too attracted to spotting scopes for the very reason you state. Another reason is that often a spotter is pretty useless much above 20x. Mostly due to heat mirage most often present where I would need to do most of spotter use. Another is simply optics, to get real decent optics, scopes cost more than I'm willing to pay for the amout of use I'd give them.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/big_eyes.html

The big binoculars have a fairly solid following as long range hunting glass, where they are referred to as "big eyes". An article and review is found at the above link. In regard to the article, the Minox 15x58 n this review has been replaced with an aparrently much better 13x56.

This Minox 13x56 has my interest. It can be had for $800-900 US, and has had some good reviews. I really can't see having both 8x and 10x bioculars, as I don't think the 10x is enough of a step up from 8x to see the next level of detail I'd like. On the other hand the 5 power increase from 8x to 13x may well get there. So, I can just about swing a Minox if I sell some binoculars I have but realistically will never use enough to justify keping them.

[Kevin Purcell]

Owen makes the comment about "a real tripod". That's the downside of bigger bins (twice as heavy or more than a similar spotter) so you need a bigger or heavier tripod to use them well.

Edz's measuremens should you get just a bit less than double the resolution from a mounted bin compared to a handheld bin. That could a useful gain when you are trying to see a smallish field mark at the limit of your handheld bin acuity. So perhaps the "big eye" 12x or 13x bin is perhaps useful if it's supported (which is I presume what the hunters do).

On a related question here is on monopods which seem the obvious way of stabilizing a bin whilst keeping the weight down for occasional use: what heads to people use with monopods and small spotters or (more relevant for this forum) bins? I presume people must use a head if they aren't using the monopod finn stick style (otherwise how do you tilt and pan?)

Any ideas?

I think we're back to the world of compromises ;)

[Sancho]

Hinnark and others on BF recommend the Canon IS 15x and 18x bins. I´ve never seen them, but I do have the IS 12x36 which is small and light and doesn´t need a tripod; I´m not sure if the larger mag IS bins obviate the need for a tripod or not.

[mark22c]

this all started when i got my first telescope a few years back and didnt enjoy using it for the same reason. i sold it and bought a pair of 25x100 bins along with a few others in differant sizes exclusively for astronomy and really liked using them. the change to bins opened up other interests for me including bird/wildlife watching but...its brought me back full circle and scopes, and yet again im looking into big bins as an alternative.
i had some 10x50's as well as 12x45's but this didnt feel a big enough jump in mag from 8x. 15x does seem a natural jump being almost twice 8x.
i think if using in the day only 20x60 would be a good size but i want to use them on the night sky as well so the extra ap is desirable and worth the extra weight during the day, i cant afford another two pairs of bins so it is a compromise.
15x70's at 2.5kgs yes there heavy but not prohibitively so. i will need a new tripod though...so any suggestions appreciated? one guy i spoke too bought a horizon 8115 heavy duty tripod at £79 which sounds reasonable but i have reservations about its quality and the head being jerky to use.

[OwenM]

On a related question here is on monopods which seem the obvious way of stabilizing a bin whilst keeping the weight down for occasional use: what heads to people use with monopods and small spotters or (more relevant for this forum) bins? I presume people must use a head if they aren't using the monopod finn stick style (otherwise how do you tilt and pan?)
I use the Bogen 3229 (tilt head w/quick release plate) on a 681B "Professional"-I think that means heavy!-monopod. I've used the aforementioned scope at 30x momentarily on it (though usually at 15-20x), but am not comfortable using anything more than a 12x binocular for any length of time. For extended use, I prefer the little 728B Digi tripod, which is about as light as it gets, but lets you relax and step away, transition to lower power bins easily, and lock onto a viewing target. I wouldn't use more than a 12-15x binocular on it, either. It wasn't very stable with the scope at 30x...
Like Steve said, magnification above 20x sometimes might not add much due to viewing conditions. Before the weather started cooling off, I'd actually stopped using my 12.5x for long distance viewing at home because of heat mirage, and just sticking to 8x most of the time.
On another note, I think everyone should try their 7 or 8x binoculars on a monopod or tripod. Those who haven't might be surprised by just how good they can be vs. handheld-it's a much cheaper upgrade than springing for better optics, but gives the impression of that very thing.

[mark22c]

thinking about tripods for 2.5kg 15x70's i found a Slik 700DX pro with pro 700DX head rated for 6kg new for £120, are these tripods any good?
should probably be asking in the tripod thread.

[Keith Dickinson]

Just for the record, an eye patch does not have to be opaque to be effective. Sometimes a piece of translucent plastic is more effective than a black card as an eye patch. Being translucent, the non-working eye doesn't become dark adapted so when the patch is removed your vision is normal immediately.
The other thing to think about is .... which is your dominant eye, if you are trying to use a scope with your non dominant eye than it will be really difficult to settle with it, try using the other eye for the scope...if it feels better then stay with that eye for scope use. Dominance does not follow handedness, so if you are right-handed, your dominant eye does not have to be your right eye.

[mark22c]

hi keith i am left eye dominant, and thanks so far for the input from everyone but i think i am going down the binocular route and will suffer the extra weight gladly for a more comfortable view.
any info on the slik tripods?...any good?

[Kevin Purcell]

The other thing to think about is .... which is your dominant eye, if you are trying to use a scope with your non dominant eye than it will be really difficult to settle with it, try using the other eye for the scope...if it feels better then stay with that eye for scope use. Dominance does not follow handedness, so if you are right-handed, your dominant eye does not have to be your right eye.

You can easily determine your dominant eye by holding your thumb up at arms length to cover a distant object (a few meters will work). Without moving the thumb view the scene only with your left eye and then your right eye. The eye where the thumb doesn't appear to "move" with respect to the distant object is the dominant eye.

And yes, I'm right-handed, but left-eyed (lot of astigmatism in the right eye not so much in the left ... so the visual system picked the best eye!) and left-footed. This also accounts for why I've had a terrible time looking down gun sights ;)

[Tero]

I think most people pick the dominant eye naturally. Which eye do you use with a camera?

I am left eyed and right handed as well, and I was left eyed when when I was 20/20. Makes shooting a rifle very hard.

thinking about tripods for 2.5kg 15x70's i found a Slik 700DX pro with pro 700DX head rated for 6kg new for £120, are these tripods any good?
should probably be asking in the tripod thread.

Looks OK, have not seen it. Many Slik models go 63 inches. I need some 70 inches to work with, as I have a straigh scope. Well, depends on your height. Many camera store tripods are sturdy enough in the legs, but have too much wobble in the head, where the scope attaches. They may work at 20x but get shaky past that. So best to see some in person first. If the slik is a good deal, make sure you can get a refund.

[Can Popper]

How big of a large binocular are you considering?

For my large binocular, I use a Siebert Quality Modified Oberwerk 70mm binocular. It gives me 11x of magnification, long eyerelief, razor sharp images to the edge, and is quite light.

One thing I really like about it is the ability to peer into deep foliage and still be able to resolve what hides inside even at dusk due to its high light gathering power.

Another option I use is a small astro scope with binoviewers. Both work very well for extended viewing.

[kabsetz]

A couple of comments,

First, on the issue of closing one's eye or using an eye-patch when using a scope. It is true that squinting is uncomfortable, and that using a dark eye-patch induces unwanted dark-adaption which makes switching back and forth with a binocular awkward and uncomfortable. A solution I have found to work very well for me is an adaptation of what many sharp-shooters use, i.e. a visual obstruction placed in the field of view of the unused eye. Shooters usually have a small piece of either dark or opaque plastic attached on a short arm on some kind of a head-mount or the rim of their glasses if they use them, but that is awkward when birding. On my previous scope, I fashioned a screen out of a binocular objective cover (ca. 60mm in diameter) which I mounted on the eyepiece with some stiff but bendable single-conductor copper wire. In my present scope, I use the s.o.c. eyepiece hood, which I have turned inside-out to have the black lining be the visible side. I simply velcro it with its regular fastener tabs so that it points straight to the side, and it conveniently intercepts the central line of vision for my idle eye. That is all that it takes so that the visual information from the idle eye is basically ignored by my brain, and since enough stray light enters the idle eye, no accommodation problems result.

The other comment concerns large-magnification binoculars, IS binoculars and effects of hand-holding vis-a-vis tripod-mounting. I'll paste below an excerpt of the test I wrote for [I]Alula[I] in 2001 on the Canon 15x50 IS. We did some interesting (well, to me anyway) tests with a few reference binoculars. The whole test can be found at: www.alula.fi if you go to the English pages, and towards the bottom of the page can manage to find the link to published reviews of optics.

"Image sharpness was tested with the bank note test explained in ALULA 4/2000, but this time it was conducted indoors in order to more easily control light levels and to avoid atmospheric disturbances. Leica 8x32, Nikon SE 10x42 and Zeiss 15x60 served as reference binoculars, and at the first stage all binoculars were tripod-mounted with the Canon's stabilization turned off. The following resolution distances were obtained as an average for two testers: Leica 4.56, Nikon 5.72 and Canon and Zeiss both 8.47 meters. Within likely margins of error, these results correspond to the ratios of magnifications for these binoculars. In other words, with the Canons as well as with the other binoculars, we can speculate that the limiting factor was the visual acuity of the testers (both of whom have well above average vision), as of course should be the case with top-quality optics. With the Canons hand held with stabilization engaged, the result was 8.22 meters, or 97% of the tripod mounted result. Hand held results of the Zeiss and Canon (now without stabilization engaged) averaged 7.5 meters, Nikon's about 4.6 and Leica's about 3.5 meters. What is surprising about these hand-held results is that when the ratio of magnifications is taken into account, the results were better for the larger magnifications, not worse as conventional wisdom would suggest. However, even very brief glimpses of the barring in the test target were counted as a resolved target, and it is possible that the larger mass of the bigger binoculars gave them an advantage here. Whatever the case, subjective factors are more pronounced in hand-held testing. To further test the performance of the stabilizer, an experiment was conducted outdoors (Helsinki, March 27, 7.45-8.00 p.m., sun had just set, clear skies) where the Canon was compared with the Leica 8x32 in reading a leg band of a Herring Gull (white C, #C5S26). We measured the distance at which we could with certainty read the number 5 and the letter S, which were easily confused. With the Leica, the average of the distances obtained by two testers was 20.5 meters and with the Canon 44.9 meters. To summarize, the above results indicate that with the stabilized Canon one can resolve detail at 1.8-2.3 times farther than with hand held conventional 8-10x binoculars. In addition, the stable image gives the viewer more time to analyze what is seen, meaning that in real-life bird identification situations the advantage might be even greater."

Kimmo

[mark22c]

i've found that using the scope covers eyepiece hood has helped, instead of letting it hang down i positioned it to the right side effectively blocking vision with my right eye, can be done for both sides. the hood has an elastic loop that hooks over a stud to fasten in place over the eyepiece when not in use, it also holds it in place at the side.it does make longer viewing more comfortable.

[stuart C smith]

hi mark22c, you might care to see a pair of my observation bins (the other is a pair of 15x70s), the big ones i use for open field observing and astro work they weigh in at 15lbs (tripod extra) never tried them for sea watching, just to dam heavy . ;)

[solentbirder]

Hi Mark,
I've found the Miyauchi 20x77 (see picture) to be excellent for astronomy and I've also used it very successfully for long range observation (I didn't carry the astronomical mounting I hasten to add!). I think these are very similar/same as the Opticron Specialist range of binoculars. The main drawbacks of course are weight and individual eyepiece focussing. I also use a Minox 15x58 and find it very good.
Cheers
John

[mark22c]

nice bins, all of them. im looking at a pair of helios apollo 15x70's for astronomical use as well as see watching...seeing as i live about 5mins from the coast, just having a little trouble choosing a suitable mount for them with a limited budget of around £120. been looking at a few SLIK and MANFROTTO mounts on ebay within my budget but dont know if there good enough....help!

[Sancho]

hi mark22c, you might care to see a pair of my observation bins (the other is a pair of 15x70s), the big ones i use for open field observing and astro work they weigh in at 15lbs (tripod extra) never tried them for sea watching, just to dam heavy . ;)
Amazing, Stuart! Are they the German WWII Flak Bins you restored?

[mark22c]

i was thinking that... they go for high prices on ebay despite sometimes needing restoration

[stuart C smith]

Amazing, Stuart! Are they the German WWII Flak Bins you restored?

hi sancho, yep thats them :t: they had been worked on optically by i am told, one of the best restorers in this country if not in europe !! so i decided not to open them, no point. or paint them . a handle, brow rest bracket and glare tubes with matt black internal cones were added, all non original , also a ww11 flak binocular rubber brow rest was sourced. i am still looking for a flak binocular aiming sight and an original brow rest bracket. the whole lot sits on a massive cullmann pneumatic titan tripod. 8-P

[ksbird/foxranch]

We have a pair of 25x100 bins, 30x80 and 20x80s in the really large, heavy category. They all work fine on tripods with video heads. But all of them get use pretty much exclusively for viewing bird feeders and to watch mating rituals in fixed locations (beaten down grass, posts driven into the ground about preferred feeding areas etc.) There is actually a blackbird display in my gallery photos taken through one lens of a large binocular as above, back from the day when I hand-held the digicam. Now I have a nice mount that will fix almost any of my digicams to one eyepiece while I use the other one for viewing.

But we have decks and concrete pads for viewing and so tripods play-nice. I rarely truck them around unless I'm going somewhere that I know will be a good location to set up a tripod.

I have 2 different pairs of 15x70 bins that work well on almost any tripod I have. In addition they work fine on my Stitz or Bogen monopods that have 3 extend-able feet on the bottom. These set-ups don't work in heavy breezes because all the support is on the bottom, so I am stuck with either hand-holding bins with 70mm objectives or I can step back to 16x50 bins then because I can definitely hand-hold them. The Pentax 20x60 (and Tento 20x60 bins) can be hand held too, or used on these monopods with feet.

On a home built short telescope using a 100mm F6 flourite APO lens, I was able to move the 2 inch focuser close enough to the objective to try out an Olympus binocular viewer with a pair of 30mm - 24mm FL UWF eyepieces and a pair of very old Zeiss 30mm - 15mm FL eyepieces. The 25x and 40x views were really astounding but balancing the whole thing is so peculiar that I don't even use it much around my ranch. The old, old Zeiss microscope eyepieces were made of solid steel and brass and are very heavy (they feel like a roll of coins in your hand). And those old Zeiss Huygen eyepieces had small eye lenses so your eyes needed to be lined up just so (the Olympus UWF 24mm eyepieces have huge eye lenses).

Still I have friends who bought different binocular viewers with 1x, 1.25x and 1.6x transfer lenses that allow for a variety of magnifications as well as being useful with 1.25 inch eyepieces. These spotters aren't waterproof by any means, but if you use a Televue telescope, then this expands your potential usage.