DSLR - Importance of live view - D60 versus D90?

[Hoogy]

Dear all,

I am planning to buy a DSLR camera for digiscoping and for nature fotography in general.

I've read al lot of your forum discussions (which I regard as high quality) and decided that if one wants to go for low noise and high ISO possibilities (400 - 800), one should choose the DSLR option.

I have a Swarovski 65 HD telescope and I want to buy a Nikon D60 or a D90 with a fixed lens Nikkor AF 85 mm 1.4 D and attach it with the DCA Swaro converter. Using a 1.4 lens I hope to compensate a bit for the light that I loose through the telescope.

This is my question:

The D60 does not have a live view option but has a good sensor. The D90 is a great camera (I saw great pictures on this forum!) but is more then twice the price.

Is the D90 worth the price difference of 500 euro (EUR 823 for the D90 versus EUR 339 for the D60). I can buy an extra lens for that money.

Since a lot of you are very experienced birdwatchers and digiscopers I would really appreciate and welcome your feedback.

Thanks and regards,

Johan

[RJM]

Actually, magnified Live View on the D90 is not that useful at the long effective focal lengths of digiscoping. Despite the excellent LCD, Nikon strangely chose not to exploit it, so magnified views are somewhat blurry. Canon's Live View is much sharper.

So you should base your decision on the D90's other advanced features over the D60.

cheers,
Rick

[Paul Corfield]

A couple of other pointers besides the live view.

You say you want an 85mm f1.4 lens. On a 65mm scope this isn't really going to be possible, even on an 80mm scope it wouldn't be advisable. You need to be looking at the 20-40mm range. A 50mm is ok for really sunny days but not much use if it's cloudy. a 28mm or 35mm is probably the ideal for most conditions.

The F1.4 doesn't work in the way you think it might with regards to once it's all set up on the scope. With the camera and lens attached to the scope, the amount of light getting through to the camera doesn't really affect shutter speed until you get down to around F8 and beyond. Best thing to look for is a lens that's well regarded for it's sharpness, colour and flare control and not worry at all about the F number.

I've had a dslr with live view for 6 months now and never used it once for digiscoping. I prefer the optical viewfinder combined with a viewfinder magnifier. You wont know what you prefer until you try. Maybe look for a retailer that doesn't mind you taking the scope into the shop to try it out.

Paul.

[davpen]

I've read al lot of your forum discussions (which I regard as high quality) and decided that if one wants to go for low noise and high ISO possibilities (400 - 800), one should choose the DSLR option.

Johan

This isn't necessarily the case. Some would say that for low noise at high ISO capabilities there's never been a better digiscoping camera than the Fuji F30/F31fd.

[postcardcv]

This isn't necessarily the case. Some would say that for low noise at high ISO capabilities there's never been a better digiscoping camera than the Fuji F30/F31fd.

The f30 does perform extremely well at high ISOs for a compact camera, but it's not as good as the current crop of DSLRs.

[Hoogy]

Thanks guys,

Great stuff. Thanks a lot. I really appreciate all the feedback. It shows I have to learn some things on digiscoping. Especially on the lenses to be used. I though a high quality lens with a F 1.4 would help but now I understand that it is not really usefull for digiscoping. So it is better to go for a wide angle (in classical terms)? I wasnt aware of the fact that an 85 mm couldnt be used but the lens has a diameter of 67 mm so I guess I could have known that.

As for the extra features on the D90. I am not sure I would actually use them, I prefer a plain camera with an outstanding sensor, allowing to go up in ISO as much as possible, without loosing to much quality and invest the rest of the money in good lenses.

I understand from Paul that liveview is not a must have and if you consider it to be important it is better to go for the Canon body.

But maybe I am overlooking something.

Cheers,

Johan

[JGobeil]

I don't like LiveView either. I have a 50D and I never use it, the viewfinder doing a much better focusing job for me. First, I hate to use a LCD in bright sun. Second, I need glasses to look at the LCD and I wear progressive lenses, making accurate focusing difficult. Third, the 10X magnifying feature of LiveView is much to much - even with a very stable head and tripod, it still shakes too much and 5X is not much better. IMO, LiveView is a nice function, but not for digiscoping.

As far as choice of DSLR, I think that all current models of Nikon and Canon would be a good choice for digiscoping. Even if the ones with full scale sensors will produce better quality images, I prefer the ones with a C sensor for birding, because of their 1.5 or 1.6 cropping factor. Also, IMO the more megapixels, the better - it allows cropping for even more magnification if needed.

[Neil]

Wow, what a divergent range of views on this . I have the Olympus E-420 and the D90 with Liveview and I use it on both. I find I can get reasonably sharp images manually focusing with the optical viewfinder if the subject is big and close (less than 30 meters ) but 9 out of 10 times the Liveview focus is more accurate. I do wear glasses though and this may not apply to those with good vision. The D90 has video too which is nice to have. The implementation of Liveview is better on the D90 than the E420 but it's twice the price.
It seems to me that Liveview is getting better all the time so the later cameras should be better. The iso 1600 on the D90 is a bit noisier than I would like so I rarely go above iso 800 which is ok in bright light but not really enough on dull days. I think the Canons do a better job here.
As suggested the 24 - 50 is the range to be in with a DX sensor ( 1.5x ). On a full frame camera 35 -105 would be preferable . The nikon 18-55 G kit zoom is a good match for digiscoping ( no vignetting with Swaro eyepieces from 25 - 55 mm ) although a good prime would be better.
Neil.

[Hoogy]

Indeed a lot of different views on the use of life view. ;) Still tempted to buy the D90 given the fantastic test results.

Is life view not handy to review the pictures directly after taking the pictures on site? I think I am kind of finding a excuse the buy the better camera and forget the 500 bugs extra charge, compared to the D60.B (:

Allthough if liveview and higer ISO rates are better on the Canon I probably even should go for the new Canon 50D? Is it really true that the Canon has a better performance on 800-1600 settings?

Cheers, Johan

[JGobeil]

Indeed a lot of different views on the use of life view. ;) Still tempted to buy the D90 given the fantastic test results.

Is life view not handy to review the pictures directly after taking the pictures on site? I think I am kind of finding a excuse the buy the better camera and forget the 500 bugs extra charge, compared to the D60.B (:

Allthough if liveview and higer ISO rates are better on the Canon I probably even should go for the new Canon 50D? Is it really true that the Canon has a better performance on 800-1600 settings?

Cheers, Johan

You don't use LiveView to review the picture after shooting - instead you use the PLAY mode all cameras have. Cameras with larger and higher resolution LCDs are better for reviewing - like the D300 and the 50D.

IMO, at 800-1600 ISO, most Nikons and Canons will show quite similar results after noise removal with Noise Ninja or similar. I suggest you choose the one that suits your purpose the best for features and fit - I wouldn't worry too much about specs.

[Neil]

Johan,
As Jules says you can minimise noise with software . Here is a comparison of a spoonbill taken at dusk last week with the D90 at iso 1600 (digiscoped). In the second photo I've run it through Noiseware. Neil.

[Derry]

I use live view considerably on my E3, have even had the camera shut down to over using when the chip was getting warm,, all cameras will do this if left on for prolong periods unless it is zero degrees around the camera,, I do a fair amount of macro on static subjects and live view can really bring out the good in your subjects and you can quickly see what a small amount of focus shift will bring in focus,,

also have used it on astronomy photos,, can focus the scope as usual but if the mount is not clocking the subject it becomes hard to follow and live view can really assist that need,,

can understand others never using and not interested in the feature,, knowing how I have used my cameras for many years I would never purchase another camera without live view,,

Derry

[RJM]

Live View would of course excel on any camera for focusing on a high contrast target like star. And Live View focusing on the D90 works well when you have an Auto Focus lens. But a manual focus lens shows the D90 weakness, especially when fully magnified and the target is a living, moving creature. The screen unforntunately is just not sharp so you have to guess between blurry and less blurry and the long digiscoping focal length makes it even harder due to shake as Joel stated. The shake though can be minimized or maybe even eliminated with a solid support bar.

cheers,
Rick

[Hoogy]

Johan,
As Jules says you can minimise noise with software . Here is a comparison of a spoonbill taken at dusk last week with the D90 at iso 1600 (digiscoped). In the second photo I've run it through Noiseware. Neil.

Looks great with the noiseware software Neil, nice tool!

I've decided to go for a camera with liveview. Will try to find a shop and go there with my Swaro 65HD to try out the D90 and 50D to find out which one feels best. I'm pretty sure both camera's are great. I already orderded the DCA convertor of swarovski, so the camera is the missing link. I used to use Nikon (F3 and FTN) when I was younger, so Canon feels a bit like adultery ;)

I'll try to find a lens somewhere within the 24-55 range with 52mm diameter.

Hope to show first pictures here soon in winter landscape:t:

Greetz, Johan

[JGobeil]

52mm lens diameter is not mandatory - you can get stepping rings very cheaply on eBay.

[seaspirit]

Is the D90 worth the price difference of 500 euro (EUR 823 for the D90 versus EUR 339 for the D60). I can buy an extra lens for that money.


D60 and D90 play in very different leagues, and the D90 will give you more in the long run.
The D60 is missing in my eyes two very important features:
-The ability to autofocus lenses without built in motors. A large number of excellent lenses will not AF on this body, and chances to pick something up 2nd hand are much more limited.
-The status LCD display on the top of the camera with lots of very useful information on current setting vivible at a glance.

I would still prefer a D80 (my current camera and since the D90 came out the price here dropped to ~650 C$, not that much more than the D60) over a D60. In my eyes even a D50 would be a better choice then the D40/40x/60 if you can still get one. Wish the D90 would have been out a year ago.

Speaking about new models. How long is the D60 on the shelf now? Given the half life time of digital cameras in our days it wouldn't surprise me to see something new in Nikon's entry segment in the near future. Life view would sure appeal to a lot of folks that have outgrown their compacts, so would the HD video feature (even without AF in video mode another good reason to go for the D90).

Ulli

[Hoogy]

Hi Uli,

According to Thom the next D60 will be available in the fall 2009.

See for the background the next link

http://bythom.com/currentdslr.htm


Greetz Johan