8x42mm bins...comparison of measurable features

[Sancho]

In geeky mood today, and maybe in the market for 8x42mm bins next year, I compiled the following which may save time for others in the same boat. It´s a table of specs for Zeiss FL, Steiner XP, Leica HD, Hawke Frontier ED, Swaro EL, and Nikon EDG. I haven´t seen 3 of the models, as two are unavailable in Ireland, and another, anywhere on planet Earth (apart from one pair in the ABA shop, it seems). Note the comparison is not "like-with-like" because the objectives vary from 42 to 44mm, and the EL´s mag is higher. But the table summarises the features that I consider most important. I haven´t included anything about resolution, brightness, edge clarity, CA, etc. - only measurements from the online specifications I was able to find for the comparison. Measurements are metric, prices are euro. Do the conversions yourself. Note also that I accept no responsibility for errors, misrepresentations, lies or fantastical confabulations contained therein.

Sancho, Aspiring Optics Geek

BTW, now I know what I really want....an open-bridge 8x with the eye-relief, exit pupil and nano-coating of the Steiners, but the weight, FOV and price of the Hawkes. And the glass bits of my Nikon EII´s. ;).

[Steve C]

Sancho,

Don't let the 30 oz weight issue of the Steiner XP deter you. If the weight is correct, they feel lighter, and are noticeable somewhat more compact and actually feel lighter than the Promaster/Hawke. If you concentrate on the weight, then the extra of the Steiner shows up, but it is not immediately apparrent.

[Sancho]

Sancho,

Don't let the 30 oz weight issue of the Steiner XP deter you. If the weight is correct, they feel lighter, and are noticeable somewhat more compact and actually feel lighter than the Promaster/Hawke. If you concentrate on the weight, then the extra of the Steiner shows up, but it is not immediately apparrent.

Thanks Steve! Hmmm...interesting. And they have the best exit-pupil and eye-relief of the selection, and are the second cheapest. With aquaphobic coating, always a consideration where I live....

Edit: these bins go by three names...Peregrine (U.S.), Discovery (Europe), and Nighthunter for Hunters everywhere. The quoted prices vary from 870 euro to well over 1,200. I´ve no idea what the pricing policy is, other than "random"....

There seem to be some small variations between the three. I see mention of a "Dual Precision" feature on the Discovery model, enabling each eyepiece to be focussed individually. I´m assuming this is a dual-dioptre doohickey.

[veagle]

Sancho,

Something you might want to take a look at is the optics4birding.com site. I have no connection with them, by the way. But they have a tool that enables you to do side by side evaluations, weighting your own priorities, such as exit pupil, FOV, etc. I don't think they carry the Hawke, but all other models are there. With my set of priorities, the Zeiss and Nikons get the highest scores, but I can tell you it is extremely close, between the top 4, at least. Basically, your going to love any of them. But the tool enables you to say, for example, if eye relief is the most important to me...

They also write some interesting reviews.

Veagle

[Matt_RTH]

I actually did the same thing myself on occasions. While I only wish I was in the market for those models (will jump on the right deal), I think as a template it's very useful.

When I was evaluating the bins I owned and the ones I was looking at, it was quite interesting what jumped out at me. One of the most telling things was twilight performance, I always used the square of the exit pupil as the "twilight factor", as do some online retailers, etc. Very useful info.

Unfortunately the reality the buying decision is probably a mix of taste, performance and quality, which vary from person to person, and even binocular specimen to specimen. I'm sure most of us have used many bins that looked great on paper and were terrible in the field.

I would also add prism type, and all coatings used.

It's quite useful to compare apples to apples and a great tool for consumers to be conscientious.

Matt

[Tero]

I was not able to open the document. Word just closed on me. Summary?

[Dale Forbes]

I was not able to open the document. Word just closed on me. Summary?

i just took a screen shot of Sancho's document and attached it as a jpg

[Tero]

Thanks. For long term use, I would go for accepatable eye relief. I do not like birding with glasses, but have to start doing it some day. The Leicas were the shortest, 15.5mm.

Strange how Americans list features in mm as well, but then we list weight in ounces and fov in feet. But fov is measured actually only in 0.1 degree usints and the fov in feet comes from a formula.

[Sancho]

Thanks. For long term use, I would go for accepatable eye relief. I do not like birding with glasses, but have to start doing it some day. The Leicas were the shortest, 15.5mm.

That´s the boat I´m in, Tero....I need the eye-relief nowadays. Which, I think, excludes the Leicas from the pot. Those Steiners sure look mighty purty though, they seem to have it all except for the slightly (0.3 degrees) narrower FOV than the "currently-non-available-but-far-more-expensive-were-they-so" EDG.

[Sancho]

BTW, now I know what I really want....an open-bridge 8x with the eye-relief, exit pupil and nano-coating of the Steiners, but the weight, FOV and price of the Hawkes. And the glass bits of my Nikon EII´s. ;).

Actually take these Dream-Bins, stick an IS-feature on them, and I´d sing them to sleep every night.....

[NWBirder]

I thought the Nikon EDG was delayed again. I haven't been able to locate a store that has EDG in stock.

[Sancho]

I thought the Nikon EDG was delayed again. I haven't been able to locate a store that has EDG in stock.
It has been delayed, but the American Birding Association online shop has one pair of 8x42 in stock. A pricey item, though....

[Steve C]

Eagle Optics lists the 7x42 and 10x42 EDG as in stock.

[stabor]

I thought the Nikon EDG was delayed again. I haven't been able to locate a store that has EDG in stock.

I've seen the 8x42 at Optics4birding (http://www.optics4birding.com/nikon-binoculars.html). Right now they seem to have that, can get the other 42s, and the 32s seem not to be available yet.

[Sancho]

Sancho,

Something you might want to take a look at is the optics4birding.com site. I have no connection with them, by the way. But they have a tool that enables you to do side by side evaluations, weighting your own priorities, such as exit pupil, FOV, etc.
Veagle

Thanks Veagle, I found it...the "O4B Scorecard". A useful tool....it tells me my preference is for the Nikon EDG 8x42, which although it doesn´t "win" in any of my fave categories, has an overall combination of features that most approach what I want. And it´s the most expensive. (A bit like the STV Proportional Representation electoral system we have here...your fave candidate mightn´t get a seat, but you should end up reasonably satisfied with the selection elected. But they´re more expensive ´cos we have 3-5 representatives for every constituency....;))

[MacGee]

Don't let the 30 oz weight issue of the Steiner XP deter you. If the weight is correct, they feel lighter, and are noticeable somewhat more compact and actually feel lighter than the Promaster/Hawke. But presumably they'll still hang round your neck like a brick?

Michael

[Sancho]

But presumably they'll still hang round your neck like a brick?

Michael
The strap in the Steiner website looks very comfortable...thick and padded. I´m sure that would help.

[Sancho]

i just took a screen shot of Sancho's document and attached it as a jpg
Dale...I only just now "blew up" your jpg screen-shot and saw the title...LOL! Should have read more like "Solid Evidence that Sancho is suffering from OCD..."

[Pileatus]

i just took a screen shot of Sancho's document and attached it as a jpg
Interesting math. Three 8X42's with three different exit pupil measurements.

[Sancho]

Interesting math. Three 8X42's with three different exit pupil measurements.
Yeah, I promise the maths aren´t mine....just copied off-of someplace. (Mine would be worse.) But is er a simple mathematical calculation of objective diameter over mag, or do the shape of the eyepieces/eyecups affect it?

[Pileatus]

Yeah, I promise the maths aren´t mine....just copied off-of someplace. (Mine would be worse.) But is er a simple mathematical calculation of objective diameter over mag, or do the shape of the eyepieces/eyecups affect it?
42/8 = 5.25
32/8 = 4.00
50/10 = 5.00
42/7 = 6.00

[Steve C]

Before we criticise Sancho's math too much, remember they aren't all 42 mm. One (Hawke) is a 43 and one (Steiner) is a 44. And one (Swarovski) is 8.5x.

No I don't personally think there is much to worry about over the difference in how a 30oz vs a 27oz binocular hang around the neck after a whole very hard physical day out and about. That's what binocular harnesses do, lose the effect of the weight. However I do realize that different people have different opinions on weight. Mine is that 30 oz does not bother me. If yours is different, then the 30 oz issue can be real concern.

[Kevin Purcell]

42/8 = 5.25
32/8 = 4.00
50/10 = 5.00
42/7 = 6.00

But they're not all these standard numbers. And they're not far off ...

Zeiss 8x42 FL is 42/8 = 5.25mm. That's correct.

Leica 8x42 is 5.2mm that's 42/8 truncated to 1 decimal place. Marketers, what can you do!

Nikon 8x42 is 5.3mm that's 42/8 rounded up to 1 decimal place. That's correct.

Hawke 8x43 is 5.34mm which is a little off from 43 / 8 = 5.37500 (internal stop? copying error?) but I doubt 35 microns is going to bug anyone.

Steiner is 8x44 is 5.5mm which is correct: 44 / 8 = 5.5

Swaro EL is 8.5x44 so 44 / 8.5 = 5.17647059 is quoted at 4.9mm which is what Swaro say it is! Does it have an internal stop smaller than the image of the aperture at that point? I suspect it does. So it's effective aperture is 41.65mm. Perhaps Swaro didn't want to use the outer 1mm or so of the lens.

http://www.swarovskioptik.at/

[henry link]

Swarovski EL is 8.5x42, not 44.

[Kevin Purcell]

Swarovski EL is 8.5x42, not 44.

My mistake.

42 / 8.5 = 4.94117647 ... which is just right!

[ThoLa]

Interesting math. Three 8X42's with three different exit pupil measurements.

The simple rule of thumb for estimating the exit pupil diameter should be seen as just that: a rule of thumb, an approximation.

A similar approximation is known for estimating the apparent field of view (actual fov x magnification).
In reality it is more complicated, as has been discussed:

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=127630

The same is true for exit pupils. For example, the ep for the Zeiss Victory 10x42 was MEASURED to be 4,5 mm (larger than life, so to speak), which nicely explaines the perceived superior brightness of this model, reported by many users.

Remember: it just a rule of :t:

Tom

[NoSpringChicken]

The Steiner Discovery XP appears to have wrap around eyecups (assuming I am looking at the correct one). Wouldn't that give problems with eye glasses or are they interchangeable with conventional eyecups?

Ron

[Sancho]

The Steiner Discovery XP appears to have wrap around eyecups (assuming I am looking at the correct one). Wouldn't that give problems with eye glasses or are they interchangeable with conventional eyecups?

Ron

They fold down, and the eyecups then have click-stops. Have a look at the Steiner website (the U.S. version) and they have little videos with some guy showing us how to do it while extolling its virtues. I´m tempted, except I´m not sure if I can live with 7.4 degree FOV, my current 8x´s being EL 8x32 and EII 8x30 (so I´ve gotten used to the whole Panoramic bit, and even found my old 8x32 HGL´s a bit restricted).

[Steve C]

The Steiner eyecups are the only flimsy looking part of the binocular. They are a fold up or fold down affair. I suspect that folks that don't care for the winged eyecup feature would likely trim them off. I don't know how well they would last in repeated fold up fold down usage. The wing has no effect on the working of the eyecup.

I tend to wonder about the concern for a restricted fov @7.4*. That's 390' vs the 404' for the Zeiss. Not much difference. But everybody has different criteria that are different from mine. For me that is an unnoticeable difference.

[NoSpringChicken]

Thanks Sancho and Steve. I see how they eyecups work now. I didn't realize they are made from soft rubber. Now can someone please explain to me the advantage of the focusing adjustment on both eyepieces?

Edit. I have just been reading the pdf brochure for these binoculars. A huge amount of thought seems to have gone into their design and they seem to have covered just about every aspect. from XP glass with water dispersing coating, to fast close focusing. Even the strap, case and rainguard seem to have been properly thought out. Whether all this attetion to detail is actually worth it remains to be seen.

Ron

[Steve C]

The Steiner has a typical sort of a barrel diopter adjustment, except that it is on the LEFT barrel instead of the typical right side placement. The knurled knob you see on the right side of the Steiner is purely cosmetic. I don't know why Steiner did this, or if it offers any sort of advantage, BUT in my case the Steiner focus snaps precisely into the best focus for each eye better than anything else. If I have a problem with a binocular, it is usually because my dominant, and weaker right eye, will not be able to get the same "just right" focus as the left eye on some binoculars.

These Steiner Peregrine XP are clearly my ergonomic pick. They feel far better in the hand, the balance is the best and the view is strikingly similar to the Swarovski EL (both seem to me to be just a tad bit warmer in color bias than the Leica or Zeiss). They also have the "built like a proverbial tank" aura about them.

[Sancho]

I tend to wonder about the concern for a restricted fov @7.4*. That's 390' vs the 404' for the Zeiss. Not much difference. But everybody has different criteria that are different from mine. For me that is an unnoticeable difference.

Yeah, I might be looking a gift-horse in the mouth here. I have to get my head around the FOV "issue". It´s the same FOV as the 8x5 Swaros, but with them there´s a slight positive trade-off in terms of magnification.

Now can someone please explain to me the advantage of the focusing adjustment on both eyepieces?

.....A huge amount of thought seems to have gone into their design and they seem to have covered just about every aspect. from XP glass with water dispersing coating, to fast close focusing. Even the strap, case and rainguard seem to have been properly thought out. Whether all this attetion to detail is actually worth it remains to be seen.

Ron

It does seem as though solid manufacturers with a reputation to uphold (I would imagine the German Police and Military would be fairly rigorous in their demands...) have decided to design a bino for demanding birders. The dual-dioptre was praised highly by someone somewhere, not sure if it´s necessary or how it would benefit me with astigmatisms in both eyes. I really would love to see a pair of these...dealers in the UK will send them over here on a 10-day return policy, so maybe after Xmas. If I go for it, I´ll give you my two-and-a-half pence sterling´s worth...;) Here´s a review from Birdwatch mag: http://www.steiner-binoculars.co.uk/public_html/pdf%20files/BirdWatch.pdf It gives the weight at slightly lower than I quoted above, and speaks well of the dual-dioptre. It doesn´t actually compare them to other bins, though...although Steve C did a thorough job of that for us.

[ThoLa]

(I would imagine the German Police and Military would be fairly rigorous in their demands...) ....

:-O:-O:-O:-O:-O:-O:-O:-O:-O
LaLoL.
Sancho, don't do this!
I almost fell from the chair!

Tom

[NoSpringChicken]

The Steiner has a typical sort of a barrel diopter adjustment, except that it is on the LEFT barrel instead of the typical right side placement. The knurled knob you see on the right side of the Steiner is purely cosmetic. I don't know why Steiner did this, or if it offers any sort of advantage, BUT in my case the Steiner focus snaps precisely into the best focus for each eye better than anything else. If I have a problem with a binocular, it is usually because my dominant, and weaker right eye, will not be able to get the same "just right" focus as the left eye on some binoculars..
That is strange. The brochure seems to imply that both eyepieces have diopter adjustment:
The Discovery delivers sharper images than any other binoculars thanks to its Dual Precision Setting. No other birding binoculars allow you to focus both eyes independently of each other. It‘s done directly at the ocular, and thus a perfect image is created for each eye. The Dual Precision Setting allows massive differences in dioptre strength on each eye to be compensated for. Simply set the dioptre strength for each eye and you will always see sharply without having to readjust. Those without vision impairment simply set the control to “0”.

In the UK there seems to be a wide variation in the pricing of these binoculars. At 'In focus' they are £899.00 but at Binoculars UK they are £699.00, which makes them something of a bargain. The 10x44 version is £60-70 more in each case.

It's good to see a serious rival for the products from the market leaders.

Ron

[Steve C]

Ron,

You seem to be correct in your reading of the brochure for the Discovery, or else we are both wrong because that is how I read it as well. There is a review of the Discovery http://www.ephotozine.com/article/Steiner-Discovery-binoculars-reviewed that also clearly states that this is a hybrid binocular (words mine) that has individual focus eyepieces and a center focus wheel. The review states it takes some getting used to, but works very well.

However the Steiner Peregrine XP is a left barrel single diopter. I just got off the phone with Eagle Optics and the gal went and got a pair of the Peregrine XP and double checked. She initially thought they were as described for the Discovery, but like I said, left barrel single diopter. I was kind of glad to find that I had not missed an obvious feature like that. But I do seem to remember the clerk commenting on "the diopter is on the left on this one".

Perhaps Steiner figured out that a single diopter worked just as well and was easier to produce, who knows. But the left barrel diopter seems to be a Steiner feature and has been the way of every Steiner roof I have looked at.

[Kevin Purcell]

Perhaps Steiner figured out that a single diopter worked just as well and was easier to produce, who knows. But the left barrel diopter seems to be a Steiner feature and has been the way of every Steiner roof I have looked at.

The dual diopter system (what Steiner call "Dual Precision Setting") is related to two other Steiner features:
Fast Close Focus changes the focus speed under 20m (so you can focus more quickley in that tange for a given amount of knob rotation).
Distance Control is a system they have were you can read the range of the focused object from the markings on the focus knob. Minox have a similar system on one of their bins.

So both of these systems would work perfectly for an emmetrope (a person with perfect vision) or a person with fully corrected vision (i.e. wearing their glasses with a current prescription). But what if you are a myope (near-sighted) or a hyperope (far sighted) not wearing glasses?

A myope would focus a distant target beyond their infinity mark on the dial. Conversely a hyperope would focus a distant target closer than the infinity mark on the dial. And similarly all ranges would be incorrect. Sorta negates the feature.

So you need to provide a feature that adjusts the bin so that a in focus distant target is set at infinity. They could do this in two ways.

One is to allow the dial and the focus setting to move independently by adding a clutch between the dial and the knob (i.e. you don't put the markings on the knob). Then you set the dial to infinity with the knob, flip a level to open up the clutch (so the dial doesn't move) then you can focus on infinity then engage the clutch and your distance dial nove measures correctly. I think this is the Minox route.

The other (the Steiner route) goes along these lines: you already have to provide one "diopter adjustment" to compensate for different eye strengths and we know how to make those so why not just provide two "diopter adjustments". One for each eye then you use each of them to compensate for the required eye strength at infinity.

You use their adjustment procedure (which is very close to the usual procedure) which is basically setting the infinity positions and compensating for differences between the eyes prescriptions.

From this Steiner PDF

http://www.aronsen.no/Inc/GetFile.asp?id=97


Dual Precision Setting
Binoculars equipped with the Dual Dioptre Setting offer you two ways to use your binoculars:

a) Without Distance Control: Adjust the right dioptre setting to "0" so that both marker points are aligned. Then follow the same steps for adjusting the Fast Close Focus.

b) With Distance Control:
1. Turn the small point at the bottom end of the focussing wheel to the edge of the right housing bridge. Now the scale of the focussing wheel is also set to Infinity
2. Please do not turn the focussing wheel any further.
3. Find a point at least 300 m away.
4. If the image is still not clear, adjust each ocular separately so that it is as clear as possible.
5. For example, observe a bird at a distance of approx. 10 m and set the scale to 10 m. Now you only need to make the fine adjustments.
6. Otherwise, you can read the approximate distance directly from the distance scale.


Fast Close Focus

We recommend STEINER binoculars with the Fast Close Focus System if you typically observe objects at a distance of under 20 m. Just turn the comfortable, cushioned XXL focussing wheel lightly to get a sharp, detailed image. You no longer need to endlessly turn the focussing wheel; with quick and easy movements, you can immediately identify the object you are viewing.

1. Choose a very detailed object.
2. Cover the left objective with your hand (or with the objective cover, if included) and look through the binoculars.
3. Now turn the focussing wheel until the right eye sees an absolutely sharp and clear image.
4. To adjust the left half of the binoculars, cover the right objective and look through the binoculars. Then turn the precision ring on the left ocular until the same object issharp and clear.
5. Your binoculars are now adjusted to your own personal vision giving you out-standingly detailed and brilliant images


So I can't see it as a huge win but it does get you close fast focusing in the right range (which is useful) and (optionally) a range dial (not so much).

Of course my favorite bit is you can immediately identify the object you are viewing.

Just point those Steiner bins at a "Little Brown Job" and you'll know what it is. Birding has never been so easy ;)

[Sancho]

So both of these systems would work perfectly for an emmetrope (a person with perfect vision) or a person with fully corrected vision (i.e. wearing their glasses with a current prescription). But what if you are a myope (near-sighted) or a hyperope (far sighted)
Huge Respect to You, Kevin...you´ve taught me three new words today! Now tell the truth...did these just roll off the tongue (or keyboard)? Did you have "emmetrope" in your recall vocabulary? Have a good weekend!

[Kevin Purcell]

Yes, they do roll of my tongue but I realize that I have to explain what they are otherwise I get funny look or comments.

And these terms I find easier to remember than near sighted and far sighted ;)

But an interest in ophthalmic optics will do that to you (if you read a few papers).

Plus I can look at a pair of glasses and know if the person is a myope or a hyperope (or even myopic in one eye and hyperopic in the other ... you do see it). The trick is to look at the magnification of the eyes: hyperopes glasses magnify the eyes.

Anyway back to the original thread.

[Steve C]

Kevin,

No disagreement from me. However the Diopter system is dual in nature on the Discovery, but it is a single, left barrel diopter on the Peregrine XP. I would personally prefer that the Peregrine XP was like the Discovery in that regard. So the binoculars are at least different in that regard.

The Discovery and the identical in appearance Nighthunter 44mm XP roof binoculars are not on the Steiner website. The representative I talked to at Steiner professed no knowledge of the Nighthunter and Discovery. The Nighthunters listed are IF porros. SO maybe the Discivery was an initial run aimed at European consumption.

[Kevin Purcell]

No disagreement from me. However the Diopter system is dual in nature on the Discovery, but it is a single, left barrel diopter on the Peregrine XP. I would personally prefer that the Peregrine XP was like the Discovery in that regard. So the binoculars are at least different in that regard.

I was just sharing what I found about why the Steiner use this system on some of their bins. It wasn't obvious to me until I read the PDF.

But you raise an interesting issue: are diopter adjusters just scaled down IF systems for roof prisms? I presume IF roofs all use eyepiece focusing?

BTW, how many companies have or had a bin called the Discovery? At least Peregrine is more original even though the XP is a bit 2002 ;)

[Pileatus]

The simple rule of thumb for estimating the exit pupil diameter should be seen as just that: a rule of thumb, an approximation.

A similar approximation is known for estimating the apparent field of view (actual fov x magnification).
In reality it is more complicated, as has been discussed:

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=127630

The same is true for exit pupils. For example, the ep for the Zeiss Victory 10x42 was MEASURED to be 4,5 mm (larger than life, so to speak), which nicely explaines the perceived superior brightness of this model, reported by many users.

Remember: it just a rule of :t:

Tom
It's simple division.

[Tero]

...you can immediately identify the object you are viewing.

It does not take that long: deer, moose, cow/buffalo, human or tractor ;)

[Sancho]

It does not take that long: deer, moose, cow/buffalo, human or tractor ;)

Yeah, but what about Crop Circles? Or Cigar-shaped Airborne Objects? There´s a Huge Grey Area, you know.....

[ThoLa]

Yeah, but what about Crop Circles? .....

Excellent for checking the collimation!


Or Cigar-shaped Airborne Objects? .....

Indicates severe mis-collimation. Return bino under warranty.


There´s a Huge Grey Area, you know.....

a - Internal fogging?
b - Fungus growing on prisms?
c - Or - hopefully not - macula degeneration in the observer (grey area remains when not using bino!).

T

[Tero]

I forgot one item in my list of hunter objects: varmints. These are popular targets, you do not have to eat them.

[Sancho]

Postscript to my hunt for 8x42 binos in 2009: today I went into Dublin to the only 3 camera stores that have even half-decent bins, to try what was on offer. Remember that the euro is now equal to about 0.97 sterling, as near to parity as makes no odds. So...I won´t mention the stores but I´ll say what streets they´re on so Irish birders will guess:

On Grafton Street, I tried a very nice pair of Leica Ultravid HD 8x42 and was impressed. Especially by the price, which was 1,699 euro. Not joking. About 55% higher than the current best price from the UK.

Then I went to Clarendon Street. There I tried the Swarovski 8.5x42. And was impressed. And was quoted a price of 1,350 euro. About 230 euro more than the current best price from the UK. They didn´t have Zeiss FL 8x42, but can get them...for 1,399. (998 sterling is best UK price).

Then I went to Talbot Street, because there´s a shop there that sells Steiner Skyhawk, which currently cost 369 sterling from the UK. The store in Dublin wants 449 euro for them. And when I asked if they could get me a pair of Steiner Discovery XP to test, they said yes, only if I ordered first and agreed to buy, but they couldn´t get me a price until I´d ordered. And they weren´t very pleasant about it.

Now these guys, if they get put out of business in 2009, will moan that Irish consumers have been spending their cash in Northern Ireland or online, and that´s why their businesses are failing. Or that they had to order earlier in the year at stiffer UK prices. Well tough luck, guys, welcome to the Global Economy. I´ve taken a pay cut, and will have to take more, and I´m paying a levy on my salary for the bank bail-out....it´s time the retailers here took a hit as well. Honestly, the Recession was sent by God to wreak vengeance on these chancers. So some lucky Northern Irish or British optics seller is going to get my euro grand´s worth of custom.:t: Rant over.

One other thing. Eye-relief. I wore my "dedicated" birding-specs for the trip, and I was able to get full FOV with the Leica 8x42, the Swaro 8x32, and the Swaro 8.5x42. The most comfortable of the three with specs on was for me the EL 8.5x42. And in comparison with my 8x32 (which I´d brought), I liked the extra half-degree of magnification. (My humble opinion only).

[Tero]

Yes, I am completely heartless with my shopping too. The only things that matter are price and return policy.

[Sancho]

Yes, I am completely heartless with my shopping too. The only things that matter are price and return policy.

Good point. And if you buy online in the EU, you have a 10-day "no fault" return on anything you buy. You don´t get that in a store here under Irish consumer law, you can only return an item if it´s damaged, etc. Here´s a link to the most outrageously-priced dealer; for a laugh scroll down to the bottom of the page to see the Leica HD8x42 price:http://www.camera.ie/binoculars/leica/

[FrankD]

I have to admit that I often time find myself falling into the same approach as Tero. I have my favorites and, luckily, they usually are the ones with the best prices and the best return policies.

[mooreorless]

Good point. And if you buy online in the EU, you have a 10-day "no fault" return on anything you buy. You don´t get that in a store here under Irish consumer law, you can only return an item if it´s damaged, etc. Here´s a link to the most outrageously-priced dealer; for a laugh scroll down to the bottom of the page to see the Leica HD8x42 price:http://www.camera.ie/binoculars/leica/


Yea, but Sancho they have a Tasco 10x25 World Class for 34.99 what more could you want.:t:Picky people.;)
Regards,Steve

[etc]

Swaro EL is 8.5x44 so 44 / 8.5 = 5.17647059 is quoted at 4.9mm which is what Swaro say it is! Does it have an internal stop smaller than the image of the aperture at that point? I suspect it does. So it's effective aperture is 41.65mm. Perhaps Swaro didn't want to use the outer 1mm or so of the lens.

http://www.swarovskioptik.at/

Where do you get that information from? Did you measure it?

Swaro's site says it's 8.5x42

[Kevin Purcell]

Where do you get that information from? Did you measure it?

Swaro's site says it's 8.5x42

Henry pointed this out and I acknowledged it in this post #25

http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=1344153&postcount=25

[etc]

Sorry, didn't notice it. I thought it was some discrepancy between stated size and actual size.

[etc]

A key measurement for me would be focus past infinity. I am nearsighted but like to use binos without eyeglasses. So that I need at least 5.5D of focus past infinity.

I really like Leica's optics but their FPI is about 4D to 4.5D (my estimate, I am unable to measure it)

Swarovksi EL barely accommodates me, at 5.5D.

Zess 8x42 T*FL I hear is supposed to be closer to 7D, which will probably be my next buy.

[Sancho]

I just found a German-based website offering Swarovski EL 8.5x42 for....€1,799!!! That´s €450 more than the Dublin price that I thought was extortionate!!!

[Kevin Purcell]

Sorry, didn't notice it. I thought it was some discrepancy between stated size and actual size.

Nah, just me relying on a bogus memory ;)

And perhaps a little cross-over from thinking about the Swift Audubon 8.5x44 ... the other 8.5x bins.

[Dale Forbes]

I just found a German-based website offering Swarovski EL 8.5x42 for....€1,799!!! That´s €450 more than the Dublin price that I thought was extortionate!!!

you have got to feel sorry for the guys in South Africa - as far as I can tell, the EL42s are currently retailing at about R25000 (http://www.pgdigital.co.za/goshopping/browse.asp?prodcat=Binoculars+and+Scopes&prodtype=All&prodsubcat=&prodorder=&p=2) (that's about €1950)!

the Leica Ultravid 8x42s are also a whopping R23900 (http://www.sacamera.co.za/productdetail/LEI40293/Leica-Ultravid-8X42-HD.html) (€1800)

[veagle]

Just for reference, in the US, we can get these ELs for $1899, or 1444 Euros. I don't understand why they would be cheaper here.

Veagle

[Dale Forbes]

Just for reference, in the US, we can get these ELs for $1899, or 1444 Euros. I don't understand why they would be cheaper here.

Veagle

lots of things are cheaper in the US than in Europe - that sucks!
prices for consumer electronics are usually about the same in dollars in the us as euros in europe.

[Sancho]

lots of things are cheaper in the US than in Europe - that sucks!
prices for consumer electronics are usually about the same in dollars in the us as euros in europe.
Well I finally got mine (EL 8.5x42) for under 1100 euro, including shipping from the UK. A considerable bargain compared to Irish prices. I managed to order them just as the euro was almost at parity with Sterling, and got the best price from In-Focus. As it happens, just in case anyone is in the market for a pair, sterling took a dive again today so you might get a good price just now. Thanks for your advice folks, I´m delighted with the bins.