£500 Binocular Budget - what would you buy?

[MarkCaunt]

Hi all,
if you had approx £500 Binocular Budget (give or take a £100) - what would you buy?
Thanks in advance to any suggestions.
Any links to reviews of binoculars would also be appreciated!

[Steve C]

Do a forum search here for Mystery Binocular, another for Promaster Infinity Elite ELX ED and another for Hawke Frontier ED. The mystery binocular is the Promaster. The Hawke and Promaster binoculars are sort of like non-identical twins, or siblings at least. They look alike, but have some minor differences in specs. Both have been reviewed here and there is loads of information there. You simply will not get better optics for the cost than you will with one of these. The Hawke likely is the easiest one to get in the UK. The Hawke is less than your budget limit as well.

[MarkCaunt]

how does hawk compare to Nikon 8x32se which Ive come across in posts as being highly recommended? cheers for reply

[John M Robinson]

A good question, but I believe Nikon only made an 8x32, 10x42 and 12x50 SE, I could be mistaken though. I own and love my 10x42 SE and am very interested in comparing a Nikon 8x32SE to my 8x32BN and 8x42 Ultravid. I would be curious how the famous 8x32SE compared to one of these new Chinese wonderkinds as well.

John

[Tero]

You can look at both 8x32 and 8x42 models. Some people prefer 42mm for brightness and other reasons, some like 8x32 which often has a wider field of view.

The Mystery Binoculars come only in 8x42 and 10x42.

[bitterntwisted]

For £500 I'd buy a pair of Nikon E2s and a pair of Hawke Frontier EDs and I'd have two pairs which were better than any other single pair under £500. In fact that's what I have. Total cost including postage £508.

Graham

[Steve C]

As I type this, the Hawke Fromtier ED thread is just 5 or 6 threads below this one. I'd read it. As for image differences, all binoculars tend to have a different "look" to them. These differences will seem more profound to some people than others. Some like the Leica views , some Zeiss, some like the Swarovski view. Some like the 3-D effect of a good porro, like the Nikon SE.

To my eyes, the Promaster "looks" like a Swarovski EL image or the Steiner Peregrine XP. I imagine the Hawke is similar, although FrankD remarked on how Zeiss-like the image was. The binocular is large and also has a fov of over 420', in the Hawke, which is unmatched by almost any other 8x42.

The optics of the Hawke/Promaster will not be beaten at the price they come at. Order from a dealer with a good return policy and see. I'd be somewhat surprised if you did not buy them when you see tham.

[bitterntwisted]

The optics of the Hawke/Promaster will not be beaten at the price they come at.

Will not be beaten by another roof binocular. But the Nikon E2 still has the edge and is cheaper. It is still true (just) that you get better optics for your money with a porro. Both are ridiculously good value.

Graham

[Nick Tanner]

I'm thinking of getting a pair of Hawke Frontiers for Xmas, an important factor for me is performance in bad light, as most of my birding is done after work, how do these bins perform in the gloaming and has anyone tried the 10x43 model?

Nick

[bitterntwisted]

I'm thinking of getting a pair of Hawke Frontiers for Xmas, an important factor for me is performance in bad light, as most of my birding is done after work, how do these bins perform in the gloaming and has anyone tried the 10x43 model?

Nick

I have 8x43 - performance in poor light is very good - they're easily good enough to give that straneg impression in the dusk that it's brighter through them than without them - they put clear detail onto birds which have long become silhouettes to the naked eye.

The Nikon EIIs are even better, but I can only vouch that both models are streets ahead of other Opticron, Swift etc. bins I've used in the £100-£200 bracket, and that you can bird an extra twenty minutes to half-an-hour with them. I can't say whether the really high end bins (Swaro/Leica/Zeiss) would keep going even longer as I've not used them in really low light.

Graham

[bitterntwisted]

Also, while commenting on the Hawkes, I did experience the same 'stray light' effect that others have noticed. This is manageable and happens quite infrequently, but with the sun behind and, for me, to the left, at one particular angle, light would creep in onto the eyepiece lens. If that's your biggest quibble, and it was mine and others, you've a fine pair of bins for £270.

Graham

[PYRTLE]

Hi all,
if you had approx £500 Binocular Budget (give or take a £100) - what would you buy?
!

A pair of the latest Swarovski 8 x 30 SLC Neu, no further discussion imo.

[Steve C]

[QUOTE=bitterntwisted;1349541]I have 8x43 - performance in poor light is very good - they're easily good enough to give that straneg impression in the dusk that it's brighter through them than without them - they put clear detail onto birds which have long become silhouettes to the naked eye.

That is just how I would describe the Promaster as well. However, I have never seen stray light in it.

I would guess that there aren't many readily available porro prism binoculars readily available in the US that would beat the Promaster. About the only two that come readily to ming are the Swift Audubon 820 ED and the Minox BP. Nikon SE and EII are pretty rare in this part of the world.

[Kevin Purcell]

A good question, but I believe Nikon only made an 8x32, 10x42 and 12x50 SE, I could be mistaken though. I own and love my 10x42 SE and am very interested in comparing a Nikon 8x32SE to my 8x32BN and 8x42 Ultravid. I would be curious how the famous 8x32SE compared to one of these new Chinese wonderkinds as well.

John

I have all three and have compared them: the SE is sharper and "cleaner" than the Hawke or the Promaster.

I just wrote up my observations on a new thread (it's worth it's own title).

http://birdforum.net/showthread.php?p=1349640

If optics was your only consideration and you can find one then that would be the "best" bin. But the usual caveats apply: SE is not waterproof and has eye relief blackout problems for some people. The latter can make it a pain to use if you are afflicted.

If optics was your only consideration and you can find one then that would be the "best" bin. But the usual caveats apply: SE is not waterproof and has eye relief problems for some people. The latter can make it a pain to use.

Another consideration is value for money. In Europe it seems the Hawke has a considerable lead (at least for now!) over some of the other rivals though I suspect you'll see quite a few more Chinese ED bins appearing in other brands in 2009.

Also, while commenting on the Hawkes, I did experience the same 'stray light' effect that others have noticed. This is manageable and happens quite infrequently, but with the sun behind and, for me, to the left, at one particular angle, light would creep in onto the eyepiece lens.

The stray light issues I talk about all have light coming in the objective. Side on or behind you stay light issues (which I do get as I wear glasses) are a given. The Hawke gets veiling glare quicker than Promaster and also has an occasional "rainbow ring" around the field stop (I think due to light scattering in the edge of the eyepiece lenses). But neither are deal killers but they show room for improvement IMHO. But I do go out with the Promasters as my default bin these days.

As for image differences, all binoculars tend to have a different "look" to them. These differences will seem more profound to some people than others. Some like the Leica views , some Zeiss, some like the Swarovski view. Some like the 3-D effect of a good porro, like the Nikon SE.

Actually I rather discounted the porro 3D effect as I've mostly been using roofs recently but I took the SE and Promaster birding together (I've started AB comparing bins whilst birding ... it's quite revealing technique). I was rather surprised how much I liked the enhanced 3D especially birding in trees. So there's a trade off there in view and ergonomics (in addition to sharpness).

The Chinese ED are very good value for money and in terms of absolute view are not challenged until you get to the "excellent" bins of the Euro 4 and Nikon. They certainly give the top bins of others like Pentax, Minox, Meopta and Kowa a run for their money.

In Europe the Hawke at £270 is excellent value for money (except as mentioned above by some very good porros).

In the US the Promasters are better value.

So they should make the short list.

Search the binocular forum for reviews and comments. There are several threads on these Chinese ED bins (and others that we keep finding!).

[Kevin Purcell]

I'm thinking of getting a pair of Hawke Frontiers for Xmas, an important factor for me is performance in bad light, as most of my birding is done after work, how do these bins perform in the gloaming and has anyone tried the 10x43 model?

Nick

DHB has ordered a Promaster 10x42 so we should see a write up in a week or two. He has a Promaster 8x so he will have a feel for the change.

For me both the Promaster and Hawke 8x are amongst the brightest bins I own. There very close the Bushnell Elite (that use a dielectric mirror rather than the silver mirror in the Chinese EDs). I have no problem with using them in the twilight specially compared to other cheaper bins.

As always try them out!

[jimibird]

I will only use bins by the alpha boys becuase of the respect they get you on 'the street', but I tried the RSPB HD bins at Rainham last week and for £500 they were very good. Not much in it between my Swaro's when comparing the 10's and under half the price!

[MacGee]

I'll put in another plug for the RSPB HD. It has excellent optics, as jimibird says, but it's also a very neat, well-designed object, with an aura of quality about it. It's nice to handle and a pleasure to use. In fact it has the same sort of feel as the alpha bins do.

Michael

[Kevin Purcell]

See this thread

http://birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=126380

where I speculate on the RSPB HD bins. I think they're from Bosma in China (who OEM Vixen and Televue amongst others). It's another nice Chinese ED bin but curiously the only one we've seen in a "conventional" enclosure.

They also seem to put the same optics in an open-bridge enclosure.

[orbitaljump]

Im seconding bitterntwisted original suggestion.

[Steve C]

For £500 I'd buy a pair of Nikon E2s and a pair of Hawke Frontier EDs and I'd have two pairs which were better than any other single pair under £500. In fact that's what I have. Total cost including postage £508.

Graham

With the Nikon EII not being available in the US (same with the SE for all practical purposes) I tend to not have these on my radar. However, if they are still available in the UK, then Graham's suggesstion seems to be the way to go. I suppose that leaves the question of 8x or 10x Hawke to serve as a compliment to the 8x EII, or which Hawke to compliment the 10x EII if that suits you..

However, if you don't want two binoculars, I'd get the Hawke, if you want a more rugged binocular. But the EII may be fine for your uses. Wish I'd bought an 8x EII when I had the chance.

[Sancho]

...... I suppose that leaves the question of 8x or 10x Hawke to serve as a compliment to the 8x EII, or which Hawke to compliment the 10x EII if that suits you..

However, if you don't want two binoculars, I'd get the Hawke, if you want a more rugged binocular. But the EII may be fine for your uses. Wish I'd bought an 8x EII when I had the chance.
Or you could go for the EII 10x35, which give extremely wide FOV of 7 degrees. Stunning optics. Not waterproof, but I´ve never had a problem and I live in Europes´s wettest country. If it rains, you put them in their case!;)

[Steve C]

Or you could go for the EII 10x35, which give extremely wide FOV of 7 degrees. Stunning optics. Not waterproof, but I´ve never had a problem and I live in Europes´s wettest country. If it rains, you put them in their case!;)

That was my problem. At the time I could have got them, I couldn't decide if I wanted an 8x or 10x EII. Wound up with a Swift Eaglet 7x36 instead. Decided I needed the waterproof and more durable qualities of the roof. Options, options.........decisions, decisions....;)

[ThoLa]

A pair of the latest Swarovski 8 x 30 SLC Neu, no further discussion imo.

Absolutely.
Or a Swarovski Habicht.
Or a Zeiss Conquest.

Tom

[MarkCaunt]

"Options, options.........decisions, decisions...." Aint that right! TOOOOO Much choice by far!

Thanks to everyone that has posted. Its really been invaluable.

As Im UK based & rightly or wrongly ive narrowed it down to
Nikon 8x32 SE CF Binoculars
but more likely (due to the water resistant...)

Swarovski SLC 8x30WB Binoculars

I would be really interested in anyones opinion of where to buy online inthe UK for a good deal. Thanks again for all input and any in response to this question!

[Tero]

Absolutely.
Or a Swarovski Habicht.
Or a Zeiss Conquest.

Tom
I was not completely sold on the Zeiss even in 8x30, the best of the 4 Conquests I think. Go for the SLC.

[birdles]

Hi, have you made your choice and if so I would be interested to know what you bought and how you find them? thanks

[Kevin Conville]

As Im UK based & rightly or wrongly ive narrowed it down to
Nikon 8x32 SE CF Binoculars
but more likely (due to the water resistant...)

Swarovski SLC 8x30WB Binoculars


Your budget is about $700-800 US and over here (at least) the Pentax 8x32 ED and Nikon LX-L 8x32 can be had for that. Either would be excellent. If the Swaro SLCs are "Neu" then that sounds great. I've always admired those bins, have used them, but never owned them.

[matt green]

A pair of the latest Swarovski 8 x 30 SLC Neu, no further discussion imo.

I've been wondering if the Hawke frontier ED was good enough to beat the latest Swarovski SLC 8x30!!

Anyone else done a comparison of these two?

Matt

[Kevin Conville]

I've been wondering if the Hawke frontier ED was good enough to beat the latest Swarovski SLC 8x30!!

Anyone else done a comparison of these two?

Matt

I find it unfortunate that Chin bins are mentioned in the same breath as Swarovski, knowing a bit what goes into making a Swaro. Regardless of what the view is, make no mistake, the Chin bin is NOT in the same league as a Swaro.

[Kevin Purcell]

I find it unfortunate that Chin bins are mentioned in the same breath as Swarovski, knowing a bit what goes into making a Swaro. Regardless of what the view is, make no mistake, the Chin bin is NOT in the same league as a Swaro.

Have you compared a Chinese ED bin to your Euro bins?

It depends what you are comparing. If you want the best image at under $500 the Chinese EDs are it. Really.

[NoSpringChicken]

I love the idea of the SLC 8x30 and tried a pair a little while ago. They are beautifully made and optically great BUT for me they had one overriding flaw. The focusing wheel is at the 'wrong' end and on the ones I tried it was a bit stiff. This meant that, as I focused, the binoculars were waving about so much that I found them unusable. I'm sure I could get used to them in time but I wouldn't want to spend all that money on binoculars that I had to train myself to use. I'm sure other people wouldn't find it a problem. Another good reason to try before you buy.

Ron

[Steve C]

I find it unfortunate that Chin bins are mentioned in the same breath as Swarovski, knowing a bit what goes into making a Swaro. Regardless of what the view is, make no mistake, the Chin bin is NOT in the same league as a Swaro.

Well for what you pay for the top end glass there should be something in that league that separates the ZEN and others from the Swaro and others. I'm fully prepared to accept that there is. I am also fully prepared not to pay for whatever that difference is, because the difference is not worth the cost. I will grant that any of the alphas are likely more solid, better engineered and have better workmanship. I think they are for more likely to survive Peter Dunne bouncing them off of walls and such.

So it gets down to the simple fact that if you can afford an alpha glass, there is no reason not to. If you simply want to have the best instrument you can buy, there is no reason not to buy an alpha glass.

However the images of the "Chin Bins" is so good there is every reason to think the comparison will be made. The point is that for far less money you get a binocular that will likely give the average user plenty of service along with quality they can afford.

[Kevin Conville]

It depends what you are comparing. If you want the best image at under $500 the Chinese EDs are it. Really.

It does matter what you are comparing. I believe what you and others say of their image quality.

Well for what you pay for the top end glass there should be something in that league that separates the ZEN and others from the Swaro and others. I'm fully prepared to accept that there is. I am also fully prepared not to pay for whatever that difference is, because the difference is not worth the cost. I will grant that any of the alphas are likely more solid, better engineered and have better workmanship. I think they are for more likely to survive Peter Dunne bouncing them off of walls and such.

So it gets down to the simple fact that if you can afford an alpha glass, there is no reason not to. If you simply want to have the best instrument you can buy, there is no reason not to buy an alpha glass.

However the images of the "Chin Bins" is so good there is every reason to think the comparison will be made. The point is that for far less money you get a binocular that will likely give the average user plenty of service along with quality they can afford.

Good points made Steve and I'll not argue against any of them.

Let me try an analogy. A Chevy Malibu may accelerate faster than a Toyota Camry. It may even stop faster. These don't make it a better car.

Another car one... A Kia may be a great car if you keep it in a garage, maintain it well, and drive 5000 miles a year. If the car lives outside and gets driven 50,000 miles a year then the Camry might be the better choice.

For backyard birding and fair weather birding in the park, the Chin Bins might be great. Would you choose them for a once in a lifetime safari?
Swarovski takes the details seriously and builds them with an appreciation for the fine instruments they are, at a price granted. I was told recently by one of the owners of Scope City who is also an optical engineer that Swaro's process for annealing lenses take two years. TWO YEARS! Do the Chinese even anneal their lenses?

I'm pretty confident that the materials that Swaro uses won't decompose and turn to goo sometime in the future, or that a gear tooth won't break because it's made of good stuff and not pot metal or plastic, or that out gassing won't fog internal elements at some point, or that lubricants won't migrate into places they don't belong, or that lenses won't change shape after many heating and cooling cycles because they weren't properly annealed, or that they will maintain their waterproofness when it counts, and that someone could inherit them when I die and they won't be a piece of *&#@.

My comments were triggered by Matt Green's question:
I've been wondering if the Hawke frontier ED was good enough to beat the latest Swarovski SLC 8x30!

Of course, they are not.

[Steve C]

It does matter what you are comparing. I believe what you and others say of their image quality.

My comments were triggered by Matt Green's question:
I've been wondering if the Hawke frontier ED was good enough to beat the latest Swarovski SLC 8x30!

Of course, they are not.

Well, we seem to be mostly in agreement. |=)| The original question was sort of loaded. Beat what parameter and how...etc.

But I've come to the opinion that the ZEN et al are at least as tough as the Viper which I've whacked around a fair bit with nary a quibble. So, in my case, probably yes, I'd go on a lifetime trip with one. For the simple fact, I'd need the extra $2K for the trip.

And a final argument in favor of the alpha class would be if you looked at a possible lifer and came up with no ID, you would not have the worry of "would I have made that ID if I wouldn't have been a cheapskate".

[passerine]

I love the idea of the SLC 8x30 and tried a pair a little while ago. They are beautifully made and optically great BUT for me they had one overriding flaw. The focusing wheel is at the 'wrong' end and on the ones I tried it was a bit stiff. This meant that, as I focused, the binoculars were waving about so much that I found them unusable. I'm sure I could get used to them in time but I wouldn't want to spend all that money on binoculars that I had to train myself to use. I'm sure other people wouldn't find it a problem. Another good reason to try before you buy.

Ron
I too was very impressed with the 8x30 and spent quite some time at Birdfair weighing them up against similarly priced bins. I whittled the list down to the SLC's and the Pentax 8x32 DCF ED. The latter won out because the image is every bit as good as the Swaro, the eye relief is spot on for my varifocals, the focusing is superior and ergonomically they also have the edge.
The Swaro is an excellent piece of kit but I see no point in having to work to obtain an undoubtedly great image.
Regards
Jim

[Kevin Conville]

The Swaro is an excellent piece of kit but I see no point in having to work to obtain an undoubtedly great image.

Oh yeah, it's where that focus wheel is that kept me from buying the 8x30s!
Somehow the reason slipped my mind...