7x36 and 9x36

[Steve C]

Another FYI from CameralandNY.

Doug says that there is at least one new series of 7x36 and 9x36 binoculars nearly ready to hit the market. He gave no details other than he'd post more when he knew more. To paraphrase him "they are mid range binoculars worth way more than they cost". That statement would certainly apply to the Promaster and Hawke binoculars. Kevin Purcell has posted information about those configurations available from Kunming United , but who knows?

Maybe the 9x36 will fulfill Tero's lifelong dream.;)

[orbitaljump]

7x35 and 9x35 porros are pretty common.

There is also the 9x36 Bushnell Custom.

[Steve C]

These are roofs, not porros. These sizes in roofs are almost, save for the Swift Eaglet 7x36, non-existent.

[John M Robinson]

Yeah, I read that over on the campfire site, I'm trying to stay calm and keep my expectations low, but there is a part of me that's hoping for that resurection of the Leitz 7x35 with coatings...

[Tero]

Oh no! I am already getting 10x42s.
7x35 and 9x35 porros are pretty common.
I think they are IF.

[orbitaljump]

Nope, lots of 7x35 and 9x35 CF.

[Tero]

OK, where?
Opticron has brand new 9x35 porros but they are not sold in the US
http://www.penninephoto.f9.co.uk/optic_fieldbin.htm

[orbitaljump]

Thanks for that link. Very interesting.

[Steve C]

Nope, lots of 7x35 and 9x35 CF.

OK remembering we are talking roof prism binoculars, aside from the Swift Eaglet 7x36 and adding for the sake of discussion, the Vortex Fury 6.5x32, I for one would like to know just what the lots of 7x35 and 9x35 roof prism binoculars are. To make the task easier, please just list the phase corrected, fully multicoated models. You can also list those with 30-36mm objectives to ease the task. You have my curiosity, as well as my attention.

For some clarification, the Opticron 7x36 listed in Tero's link appears to be a dead ringer for the Swift Eaglet 7x36, with a tiny bit of difference in the rubber armor, and now that I look there is also about 20 feet wider fov..

[FrankD]

I am not sure if these are what Doug was referring to but I just received my latest copy of Inside Archery. In it was an advertisement for new configurations of the Vortex Diamondback. Included in the new configurations were a 7x36 and 9x36. No other specs were listed.

When I first saw the title of this thread I thought for sure that Steve caught onto it before I did.

;-)

[henry link]

OK, where?
Opticron has brand new 9x35 porros but they are not sold in the US
http://www.penninephoto.f9.co.uk/optic_fieldbin.htm


The Opticron Minervas have been around in various guises for many years. They were sold in the US in the late 80's as the Mirador "A Series" and under the Unitron brand name and probably others.

I think orbitaljump must be thinking of old Porros offered on eBay. Even there I don't think 9x35s are exactly plentiful.

[Steve C]

I am not sure if these are what Doug was referring to but I just received my latest copy of Inside Archery. In it was an advertisement for new configurations of the Vortex Diamondback. Included in the new configurations were a 7x36 and 9x36. No other specs were listed.

When I first saw the title of this thread I thought for sure that Steve caught onto it before I did.

;-)

You might be right, probably are right. It would just about have to be from a company that Doug is a dealer for. I did talk to Vortex awhile back and the said they were working on 6x,8x and 10x 32mm Vipers, so I didn't think about that. For some reason a compact Promaster popped into my head, probably because I WANT ONE! ;)

[Matt_RTH]

I'm actually hoping it's from a big manufacturer. With all the advances in bringing good optics at great prices, it will be good to see a large manufacturer "get it". I'd be interested in both models, but would want to compare them to my existing set.

How long until a manufacturer develops a reasonably priced image-stabilized model? :clap:

[Kevin Purcell]

I am not sure if these are what Doug was referring to but I just received my latest copy of Inside Archery. In it was an advertisement for new configurations of the Vortex Diamondback. Included in the new configurations were a 7x36 and 9x36. No other specs were listed.

When I first saw the title of this thread I thought for sure that Steve caught onto it before I did.

;-)

Wait ... are these people ... reading ... our ... threads?

To no one in particular ... 7x28 ... great exit pupil. Please.

I'm actually amazed. Maybe Vortex got the message. But then again they're already wacked out on 6.5x bins (!). Hope they're decent coatings (i.e. better than the current Diamondback e.g the Legend quality coatings would be nice).

Perhaps it's Promaster ... we did talk up 36mm bins (but this one is a long shot).

Or as Steve suggests they could be the Kunming bins but I rather suspect not as they have been around for a while with only one UK distributor selling them (for too much money!).

Seriously 35 or 36mm bins are a once common but now neglected size for reasons I never quite understood (perhaps just marketing as we "know" people want 32mm or 42mm).

[ceasar]

Wait ... are these people ... reading ... our ... threads?

To no one in particular ... 7x28 ... great exit pupil. Please........................................


Durn Tootin', Kevin!

Hear (See) that Pentax??? (To you in Particular!)

How about dropping some some longer focal length oculars into that dandy 9 x 28 DCF LV and making it a 7X? Will it work? Will it sell? (I'll buy one!)
Bob

[orbitaljump]

Yes

Leupold Gold Rings 9x35 IF (I really really really really wish this were Center Focus)

Bausch Lomb 9x35 Zephyr (Im thinking about getting some of these multi coated.)

Basuch Lomb 9x35 Discoverer

Nippon Kogaku 9x35 (Pretty good binocular)

Ross 9x35 Stepnuva

Bushnell Custom 9x36 (Dont care for the ergos on the Custom line)


I recently bid on a Browning 7x35 with a 445' FOV roof and with the focus knob forward in the "pinky position." Probably from the 90s. My ebay nemesis outbid me on that one.

You are right the 9x35 isnt nearly as popular as the 7x35 in porros. It was however popular with hunters in the past....and more expensive when sold in the past as new.

Those Opticron Minevera's in 9x35 and 7x40 is what caught my eye from Tero's link. Anybody know the low down on them? Henry?

[richt]

Hi

I own a pair of opticron Minerva 9 x 35 porro's i picked a mint pair up from a camera shop sale out on the famous auction site a year or so ago
Basically they are a lovely pair of bins i think full multi coated or at least multi coated with a 7.3 degree field of view
They are strongly built and feel of durable quality although i am sure like all porros they could be bumped out of alignment if whacked badly
Nice bright wide field view with good centre sharpness and edges not bad at all
Eye relief may be a bit skimpy for eyeglass wearers probably about 12-13mm at an estimate
they are not as optically brilliant as Nikon E11 or SE but are not a million miles away and are noticeably better than many mid-range,mid-price roofs
Oh and one quirk is that the focus is very fast for a porro

Regards
RichT

[John Cantelo]

I've always regarded it as one of the mysteries of ornitho-optics (if I can coin such a clumsy word) that the 7/9x35/36 configuration seems so popular in the USA, yet so little regarded in the UK (and Europe generally?). Witness that all posters here thus far sail under the stars-and-stripes (albeit one ex-pat Brit). In 40+ years of birding in the UK and a greater than average interest in optics I've only once come across a birder using a 35/36mm glass. Is it, I wonder, the greater influence (in marketing terms) of the hunting lobby? Similarly, although less marked than hitherto, why is it that we on this side of the Atlantic tend prefer fixed magnification lenses on 'scopes then zooms?

[FrankD]

I think you are correct Kevin. Somebody has been listening. ;)

Chalk me up for one of those 7x36s when the time comes.

....eagerly!

[Tero]

There in fact are very few 36mm models. I have had a 10x36, which at the time was a bit dim. The 8x36 Excursion was fairly bright, better than an 8x28, but nothing spectacular. I looked at 10x36 Pentax, and the dimness was again apparent. 10x25 reverse porros are about the worst, in winter when I usually use a 10x. So I go with 10x42.

[Pinewood]

...

Bausch Lomb 9x35 Zephyr (Im thinking about getting some of these multi coated)...



Hello Orbitaljump,

I think that custom coating is not very practical. After World War II, Leitz and probably B & L, would coat their pre-war binoculars, but that was a different era. As their post-war binocular models were the same as pre-war, all the jigs and processes were the same, and labour was not a significant factor. Additionally, there must have been enough surplus and booty binoculars, and material shortages to depress sales for a years, making coating old models a good sideline.

Additionally, I have been told that multi-coating does affect the optics, making it a rather more complex arrangement.

At the moment, I am eagerly awaiting a 7x35 Zephyr, which is being spiffed up. I was rather impressed with the 6x30 Zephyr.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur

[Steve C]

orbitaljump,

I guess you have just made my point. All of the stuff you listed is at least ten years out of production. The Zephyr is a good glass. I happen to have a Leupold Gold Ring 9x35 (it is fresh from a Leupold refurb and good as new if you're interested). Like you I wish it was a CF binocular. I bought mine in 1992 and I think they quit making them in 1994.

The point is that the new 7x and 9x36 are roof, not porro.

John Cantello,
I do wonder if the only people who want 7x and 9x 30-somethings are confined to people who post here and on a couple of other forums. I think that if they would sell they would exist. However, maybe the marketing people in the optical world have figured out it is statistically easier to sell 8x and 10x.

Frank
I'll order an 7x36 myself. I have talked a couple of times on the phone to Sam Hamilton, the family man who designs the Vortex glass and begged for a 7x and 9x 36 Razor. I suggested to him that he log on here and 24 Hour Campfire and take a look at the requests that were there for 7x binocular, good roof prism binoculars.

[Kevin Conville]

I've always regarded it as one of the mysteries of ornitho-optics (if I can coin such a clumsy word) that the 7/9x35/36 configuration seems so popular in the USA, yet so little regarded in the UK (and Europe generally?). Witness that all posters here thus far sail under the stars-and-stripes (albeit one ex-pat Brit). In 40+ years of birding in the UK and a greater than average interest in optics I've only once come across a birder using a 35/36mm glass. Is it, I wonder, the greater influence (in marketing terms) of the hunting lobby? Similarly, although less marked than hitherto, why is it that we on this side of the Atlantic tend prefer fixed magnification lenses on 'scopes then zooms?

Ornitho-optics? Sounds more like a diction exercise for actors than say, birding bins. ;)
Anyway, the heyday of 35mm bins is 30 years past and with just a couple of exceptions were porro prism bins. I think everyone here is thinking of a modern roof prism type. To your point though, I think it's several things that us 'mercans (if you say so) find appealing about those configurations. The promise of a wider angle optic vs a 42mm in a package that approaches a 32mm bin combined with neat math. With a 36mm objective, and 7 and 9x, one gets either a 5 or 4mm exit pupil. Add a 6x and you can get a 6mm exit. It's all rather tidy. Maybe it has something to do with our puritanical roots :h?:

BTW I'm one American who prefers fixed EPs on scopes. It's my observation that most people DO love their zooms though!

[Surveyor]

I've always regarded it as one of the mysteries of ornitho-optics (if I can coin such a clumsy word) that the 7/9x35/36 configuration seems so popular in the USA, yet so little regarded in the UK (and Europe generally?). Witness that all posters here thus far sail under the stars-and-stripes (albeit one ex-pat Brit). In 40+ years of birding in the UK and a greater than average interest in optics I've only once come across a birder using a 35/36mm glass. Is it, I wonder, the greater influence (in marketing terms) of the hunting lobby? Similarly, although less marked than hitherto, why is it that we on this side of the Atlantic tend prefer fixed magnification lenses on 'scopes then zooms?

Hello John,

This pertains mostly to a test report I have been hunting for years, but think it may reflect some opinions here so I am going to go out on a limb. I think a lot of the 7x preference on this side of the pond may be caused by military service of us older folks.

There was an old Navy test that was referenced in the Quarter Masters official list of suppliers (Navy version of a catalog) that I read when in the service in the mid 60’s. I have been searching the web for this test report for years.

It may help to have someone else on the lookout for this information. When I was in the Navy, one of the Quarter Masters on one of the big ships showed me an article in one of his supply books. It was a test the Navy had conducted (and I can not remember the details, but was impressed by the numbers) that showed that a large group of test subjects, ages 18 to 27, mostly male but representative number of females, were tested IDing moving silhouette shapes under various conditions and distances, and standard resolution targets, and were graded on both speed and accuracy. The powers were from 5x to 12x handheld and, by a large percentage, both the ID speed and accuracy scores for the 7x won. I cannot remember the numbers but seems like it was in the 90's% range. I have been hunting for that test online but have not found it. I did find a quote from an Opticalman in another forum that looked as if it came from this test. I emailed Bill Cook about this, him being an old Navy man, thought he surely has seen this but have not heard back from him (since found he is having health problems, so did not try to call him). The quote found is:

From: vichris -> RE: Stirring the pot 8X vs 10X (11/4/2008 5:35:58 PM) an optician and Navy Opticalman. Sorry, I did not get the forum name.
The US military has studied the human body as it relates to optics. The average maximum that the human pupil will open up to is 7mm. So designing an optic with an exit pupil of 7mm would meet ANY viewing condition thus the military standard 7 X 50. They also found that 97% of the test group could HANDHOLD a 7 X bino well enough to CORRECTLY count the lines on a 7X resolution chart.............but only 8% could CORRECTLY count the lines with a handheld 10X bino on a 10X resolution chart. All of the binos had at least a 5mm exit pupil. The test group were required to use both hands, could sit, stand, or kneel, steady themselves in any way against any part of their own body but were not allowed to lay prone or use any foreign object to help steady themselves or the bino. The test group were between the age of 18-27.

As for the aperture, in my case, I think my eyes can only dilate 4.5~5 mm so a 7x35 would be about the max I could use. Right now, my 7x are limited to 7x20 and 7x42 and 7x is still my all around favorite power, that has not changed for 40 years, so I would like to have something in between.

If anyone has a copy, or knows of a source, of that test report, I sure would appreciate a copy of it.

Thanks, best to all,
Ron

[FrankD]

Steve,

Thanks for the info. It is nice to have contacts like that. ;) I read an article in one of the trade magazines that had Sam's picture, as well as his design gear, in it. Very impressive stuff. I am glad to see he took some of our thoughts to heart.

[Kevin Conville]

Interesting post Ron. You also bring up several good points supporting the 7x35 fan base. I wasn't attracted to 7x until I got older primarily because I'm not as steady as I once was. Though I have a great pair of 7x42s I would appreciate a lighter more compact bin and I don't think I'm benefitting from a 6mm exit pupil at this point either. With the aging boomers about I say bring on the 6 and 7x 35/36s. Add to the mix the potential for super wide fields and what's not to like?
I want more options than Chinese bins though, and am willing to pay for them.

[FrankD]

I am not sure if it was in this thread or another but I was just reading in the one trade magazine I receive that the prices for the Viper 32 mm series will be as follows.....

6x32- $480
8x32- $490
10x32- $500

These are going to be the actual selling prices not the MSRPs.

[Kevin Purcell]

The quote found is:

From: vichris -> RE: Stirring the pot 8X vs 10X (11/4/2008 5:35:58 PM) an optician and Navy Opticalman. Sorry, I did not get the forum name.
The US military has studied the human body as it relates to optics. The average maximum that the human pupil will open up to is 7mm. So designing an optic with an exit pupil of 7mm would meet ANY viewing condition thus the military standard 7 X 50. They also found that 97% of the test group could HANDHOLD a 7 X bino well enough to CORRECTLY count the lines on a 7X resolution chart.............but only 8% could CORRECTLY count the lines with a handheld 10X bino on a 10X resolution chart. All of the binos had at least a 5mm exit pupil. The test group were required to use both hands, could sit, stand, or kneel, steady themselves in any way against any part of their own body but were not allowed to lay prone or use any foreign object to help steady themselves or the bino. The test group were between the age of 18-27.


From

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=3143685&mpage=1

but no cite of the report though the discussion is both civil and on the money discussion (fer a huntin' forum ;) )

[Fireform]

From

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=3143685&mpage=1

but no cite of the report though the discussion is both civil and on the money discussion (fer a huntin' forum ;) )

I've pretty well satisfied myself that, with handheld optics of similar quality, I can't see anything at 10x that I couldn't resolve at 8x, no matter how fine and far off it is and no matter how I try to steady them. Sometimes I can resolve details at 8x that I can't at 10x. Not saying that's true for everybody, but for my part I've sold off my fancy 10x glass. Put them on a tripod and it's a different story, but I don't tote a tripod anywhere unless I'm using a camera or spotter. When I'm walking a long way and am at all winded, I can't even hold steady enough over a walking staff to get any advantage from 10x. The expensive 7x glass I've looked through hasn't quite matched my best 8x bins, but that's hardly a comprehensive survey.

I also can't tell the difference between 8x and 8.5x in glasses of comparable quality. There, I've said it.

[Steve C]

I've pretty well satisfied myself that, with handheld optics of similar quality, I can't see anything at 10x that I couldn't resolve at 8x, no matter how fine and far off it is and no matter how I try to steady them. Sometimes I can resolve details at 8x that I can't at 10x.

Interesting. I feel the same way. However, when I said that I could see better detail at distance with my 8x Promaster ELX ED than I could with my Vortex Viper 10x42, I caught some flak saying that it simply was not possible for an 8x to outperform a 10x at distance resolution. The definition of resolution in this case being the ability of the two magnifications to separate line pairs. So maybe it's us against the world. Or maybe resolution is not the proper term in this case.

[Surveyor]

I caught some flak saying that it simply.......

Sorry Steve C. I did not mean to give you any flak about resolution and sorry if it sounded that way.

I only have one 10x and almost never use it, preferring 7-8x in the field instead. It is true I can see more detail with 10x but I have to put it on a tripod or otherwise steady myself. I feel that I ID better with the lower powered optics up to a point, then usually go straight to 12x, I am not as tempted to try to hand hold them for any time.

Best
Ron

[Steve C]

Ron,

No apology needed as I certainly took no offence from anything on that thread. What I took from that and the responses from several people was that I probably had misused the term resolution.

[Surveyor]

That's good Steve. I think that on a forum like this, definitions are important, otherwise, your never exactly sure if your talking about the same thing when describing subjective impressions.

Have a good day.
Ron

[FrankD]

Hows about "apparent sharpness"?

That has to be one of my favorites because what is apparent to me may not be apparent to you.

:-)

[vaughan8]

I like 7x35s for general use, and can't understand why quality ones are like hen's teeth. Opticron BGA 7x36 currently about £240 at Warehouse Express (down from £399). Identical specs to Swift Eaglet - I suspect they're the same under the armour (focusing wheel, & dioptre also identical). Took mine seal watching on a freezing, blustery, overcast East Coast & delighted with bright, sharp, steady image & easy handling even with thick gloves. To beat the image quality you'd need a top porro or a £1000 roof, but for a balance of virtues (if you like 7X) these are near unbeatable. Grab while you can!