Leica APO 77 Dream come true

[dxchaser]

Hi all,
I am not a birder, at least not yet, i purchased a used Kowa 821
about two years ago because i live on the edge of town with superb views (700ft ASL) and always fancied something a little better for long distance viewing than attainable from binoculars.

About 5 months later i sold the Kowa and have regretted it everyday since
For quiet some time now i have been considering another scope
I decided after seeing the effects of colour aberration with the kowa i wanted something better,
I wanted to stay with the larger scope for digiscoping & Sky at night viewing
and after reading the reviews i narrowed the selection down to three
Ziess, Swarovski, Leica,

Last weekend i decided on a Leica Televid Apo 77 with 20-60 x zoom
and Birder 144 kit,

I was a little nervous at handing over more than £1k for an item that is not going to be used for my main hobby, Also my wife was more than a little anxious at my decision !
I have to tell you all that i am stunned by the results, whether panning an airbus at 20 thousand feet, Observing jodrell bank radio telescope (Lovells 64m dish located near holmes chapel in cheshire) completely filling the eyepiece from our garden some 14 miles away
or looking straight into the eye of a jackdaw from a quarter of a mile, the Leica scope gives unimaginable clarity even at 50x and above,
Those of you who own a top scope will know exactly what i mean
Sure it's expensive but if you want the best you have to pay for it

I noted with interest another gentlemen's view here on Birdforum
APO or Non APO, "I would always be wondering what if."
Well i know i would be wondering the same thing Darrell
and because of that and my past experience with the Kowa
(I find colour aberration spoils my viewing) i decided to opt for the APO version.
Even my wife has warmed to the idea after viewing foxes playing in twilight on the edge of woodland near our home.

Oh by the way I tried the APO 62, it was very good but as nearly all my
viewing is done in the evening and sometimes after dark it would have been the wrong choice for me,
Now, where did i put that bird book? Kerry .........

[Andy Bright]

Hi Dxchaser (another radio man?)
A warm welcome to birdforum.net from all the moderators and admin staff here. We hope you enjoy yourself on the site.
I haven't met anyone who regretted buying a high-end scope.
Best regards,
Andy

[scampo]

I'm surprised you saw that much CA with the Kowa - I've only used it a few times but it's a very well corrected scope as far as I can rememebr. Then again - if you tend to look at a lot of airplanes against a sky, maybe you would notice CA more?

Anyway, as Andy says, the top scopes always surprise you when you first look through them - they cost a lot, but are worth it. I wonder why you didn't include the Prominar Kowa in your choice, though? It's a much lighter scope.

[iporali]

I'm surprised you saw that much CA with the Kowa - I've only used it a few times but it's a very well corrected scope as far as I can rememebr. Then again - if you tend to look at a lot of airplanes against a sky, maybe you would notice CA more?

The scope was "non-fluorite" Kowa 821, which has clearly more longitudinal CA (throughout the fov) than fluorite models 823/4 (where the minor CA is seen at the edges of fov).

Ilkka

[scampo]

Come on - "clearly more" suggests it has shed-loads, as another put it...

I have a Kowa non-fluorite and it has very well corrected CA.

[iporali]

OK, Steve - 821 has shed-loads more CA than 823. :hi:

Ilkka

[scampo]

We'd better ask Leif to check the scopes out, don't you think - he has CA sensors attached to his antennae...

[Leif]

We'd better ask Leif to check the scopes out, don't you think - he has CA sensors attached to his antennae...

Steve: An interesting anatomy lesson. Thankyou.

The reported behaviour of the Kowa would not surprise me, given my experience with an Opticron ES80 this weekend. It had shed-loads of CA. But then again some wooden stakes half submerged in a lake were surrounded by purple fringes when viewed with both the Swarovski ATS 80 HD and the Nikon 80 ED. It was not serious but it was obvious and surprised me. (As you know, I am rather a newbie when it comes to scopes.) How obvious CA is all depends on the lighting and the observers psychology. BTW Your son's scope has a much larger F number than your Nikon so should be better corrected for CA.

FWIW Amateur astronomers pay several thousand pounds for the best 75mm refractors with a focal ratio of ~6 e.g. Takahashi and they usually weigh a tonne! Given that us birders want a light compact waterproof nitrogen filled optical assembly, with superior optics we seem to be getting a bargain. It might be that people like Nikon make far more instruments than Takahashi et al, so can benefit from economies of scale, and a higher degree of manufacturing automation, leading to better value instruments.

[dxchaser]

Hello Guys,
Thank you all for your replies,
Yes Andy I’m another radio man

Ok on the Kowa Steve, well that is a a very good question, the reason for not short-listing the prominar
was down to 2 things, firstly of all the scope reviews I have read so far the kowa does not score quiet as highly as the other 3 scopes, and secondly the price is not far away from the Leica, I do agree the prominar is an excellent scope but I preferred the leica’s zoom lense, the weight has very little to do with my choice I am 33 years old and have carried much heavier equipment around with no problems. Regarding the CA, well my old 821 suffered quiet a bit from it,

During the Christmas holidays i took a trip up to my semi local optics shop, the plan was to
purchase a used scope, i tried a used Opticron Imagic 80 and was very disappointed,
I then asked to see a Leica APO and i knew immediately after looking through the APO 62 that I would not be satisfied with a scope that could not correct CA.,
When viewing moving objects I find CA nowhere near as noticeable, but when digiscoping, or looking at dark objects against a bright background CA is there rearing it’s ugly head, you either put up with it or you don’t And I fall in the latter category, and for a bit of astronomy the APO is fantastic,

One thing I would have liked to do was try all 3 short-listed scopes at night,
I found very little difference between the top scopes during daylight,

[scampo]

Poor old Kowa do seem to have hit something of a low spot so far as reviewers are concerned - yet I know a couple of very discerning young birders who use the 823 and swear by it. Maybe Kowa haven't been advertising enough for a while so the mags tend not to remember them?? - They're changing their UK distributor, too. It would be a surprise if they weren't up there with the best given their illustrious history in optics.

But I'm certain you made a good choice - if weight isn't an issue, then the Leica is as good as they get, I should think. And its zoom is a delight as yopu say.

[dogfish]

Leif wrote: BTW Your son's scope has a much larger F number than your Nikon so should be better corrected for CA. end quote

Excuse my ignorance, but what's an F number in this context?

[jayhunter]

What does APO stand for you guys?

[Adey Baker]

APO = Apochromatic, corrected for 3 colours

[iporali]

F-number = Objective focal length / Objective diameter

Same as max "aperture" in camera lenses. The larger number, the less light gathering power and more focus depth.
Leif: Does stopping down reduce/correct CA? My old (from 1979) 60mm non-fluorite Kowa is very well corrected (like Steve's) - but has a narrow fov. It has a long tube, which indicates a high F-number compared to modern scopes.

Ilkka

[scampo]

We perhaps have a similar scope - mine's the TS601 now with the TSN 30xW (I originally had the equally good 20xW but now my youngest uses it and he wanted a bit more power - typical lad, eh?). The scope's a lovely lightweight scope from the days when Kowa were one of the most highly respected optics manufacturers.

[jayhunter]

Cheers Adey have been toying with the idea of scopes, but I feel the four figure sum quoted in this article will kill the idea when her indoors hears the price!!

[pduxon]

Cheers Adey have been toying with the idea of scopes, but I feel the four figure sum quoted in this article will kill the idea when her indoors hears the price!!

You can get a Kowa 613 off Warehousexpress with tripod and 30x eyepiece or zoom for £500.

Or you can get an Opticron ES80 for about the same.

Tim will tell you to checkout W.Expresses offers on the Nikon ED78 about £600

actually they have offers on the Fieldscope III non-ED and the RAII

[iporali]

We perhaps have a similar scope - mine's the TS601 now with the TSN 30xW

Those were the days...
Actually mine is even older TS-1, with those unsealed screw-mount eyepieces. I have a great 25x fixed, mediocre 40x and a horrible 15-50x zoom (with bubbles!). I am always surprised by its image and build quality. I remember 601 has even better edge resolution. Buying those "veterans" second hand (if someone is selling) may be an inexpensive way to get really fine optics.

Ilkka

[scampo]

I think mine would fetch perhaps £100 -120-00 on eBay - but I wouldn't part with it. It wasn't my first scope but it was the one that really got me into birding in a more knowledgeable way - that and a pair of Optolyth Alpins binoculars - my middle son uses them, my youngest son the scope. We just about half fill some of the smaller hides on a family day out birding!

[Ragna]

Bob.
used Kowa TSN 3 or 4s go for about £400 Including 30x eyepiece(zooms not very good)and Case in very good condition.These are arguably the best scopes Kowa have made.Nikon ed78 with 30x eyepiece from Warehouse express is also a very good deal.