Question for Michael F.:Pinus roxburghii and canariensis

[Joern Lehmhus]

Is the Chir Pine really the closest relative of the Canary Pine ???

I realise this is probably a question for you, Michael Frankis?!?

Jörn

[steve_nova]

Dare I intercede?.........cheated here of course Jörn.

Subsection: Pinaster includes the following species.
P. pinaster, P. canariensis, P. roxburghii, P. halepensis, P. brutia, P. latteri & P. merkusii.

Taken from a link on Wikipedia Pine tree genus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_tree) that Michael has done most of the work on!!!

Just follow the link at the bottom of the page that says Pine classification.

[Michael Frankis]

That's here:
http://www.pinetum.org/Lovett/classification.htm

In terms of appearance, yes, P. roxburghii and P. canariensis are closely similar. But there's a good possibility that P. canariensis may prove to be a little more closely related to P. brutia.

For more detail, check out: Pinus brutia. Curtis's Botanical Magazine 16: 173-184 (1999). I've still got a few reprints, if anyone really wants one ;)

Michael

[Joern Lehmhus]

Thanks, guys!

I knew they were in that subsection, Steve. But that still didn´t give me the information which species stand closest together in terms of relatedness.

Michael, if I remember my pines correctly; isn´t brutia a species that is at least visually close to halepensis? (doesn´t say something abou thow close related they are, I know)

Jörn

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Jörn,

Yep, it is thought that P. halepensis derives from P. brutia, possibly quite recently, with P. brutia retaining much greater ancestral variability, including sometimes showing characters normally associated with P. canariensis. I've got some P. canariensis and P. brutia cones that you'd be hard put to tell apart except for size, strikingly similar scale form; also found a P. brutia with 80% of its leaves in 3s, and several at low altitudes in SW Turkey with leaf length 20-29cm, nearly the same as P. canariensis. More in that Curtis Bot Mag paper.

Michael

[Joern Lehmhus]

Interesting, many thanks!

Then P. brutia or a brutia-like species is the ancestor also of P. canariensis?

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Joern,

They certainly share a common ancestor; which of the two it was more like, I don't know.

There's several pine fossils been found the Mediterranean area that have been ascribed to P. canariensis, but I've not seen any of them; the one I've seen a good photo of, to me looks more like a Pinus pinea ancestor, though with some similarities to P. canariensis too (so there's yet another species in the question!).

Michael

[spanishalex]

I have asked the botanists at the Jardin Canario on Gran Canaria about the Canary Pine:

They say that molecular phylogeny suggests that P. pinea is the nearest relative of P.
canariensis and that P. roxburghii might be close to the ancestors of the whole
Mediterranean group of P. halepensis and P.brutia, P.pinaster and P.
heldreichii.

P. brutia and halepensis are also close to each other and have
diverged late. (see Wang et al. in American Journal of Botany vol 86 p. 1742-
1753 (1999))

Hope it helps!