Leica, Swaro, Zeiss... Nikon?

[bluesinlondon]

So, am thinking I'm about to invest in one of the 'Big Three' as Leica, Swaro and Zeiss seem to be known. Should I also consider Nikon HG-L?

They're a good bit cheaper than the other three (at least here in the UK), are they in the same league?

I will try any before I make a purchase but I thought I'd canvas opinion here too.

Any other thoughts about the relative merits of each of the above would be gratfeully received.

I want them for general birding and am thinking of the 8x42 options of each.

Thanks in advance

[oleaf]

Blues,

I'd consider Meopta in that crowd. Excellent wide flat view and built to the same standards. Many in the states compare to Swaro SLC. Priced a little over half of the big three but with latest rebates Leica and swaro are very attractive.

Try if you can find a Meopta

Cheers

[denco@comcast.n]

So, am thinking I'm about to invest in one of the 'Big Three' as Leica, Swaro and Zeiss seem to be known. Should I also consider Nikon HG-L?

They're a good bit cheaper than the other three (at least here in the UK), are they in the same league?

I will try any before I make a purchase but I thought I'd canvas opinion here too.

Any other thoughts about the relative merits of each of the above would be gratfeully received.

I want then for general birding and am thinking of the 8x42 options of each.

Thanks in advance

I feel the Nikon HGL's are a notch down from the other two alphas Nikon hasn't really changed them much and I feel they are not top tier binoculars anymore. This may sound old but definitely try the Zen 8x42 ED's. I found the Zen's to be quite a bit superior to my Leica Ultravids 7x42 and way superior to my Nikon 8x32 HGL's both of which I sold and kept the Zen's. When I compared them side by side the Zen's were clearly the best of the three. If you have to have one of the big three then get one with ED glass because I feel it makes a big difference especailly in CA(Zeiss FL, Nikon EDG, or Leica HD). The new Nikons with ED glass although I haven't tried them I have heard from other reviews they are quite excellent although expensive. Again try the Zen's because they are as good as any binocular up to $1500.00. I think the only thing that will best them in optics is the $2K plus Alpha ED's. Certainly don't spend big bucks on a non ED glass. You are buying old technology IMO. If you don't like the Zen's you can always return them!

Dennis

[ceasar]

If you look around you can get Nikon HG L's at very good prices now. Esp. in the 8 x 32's and 10 x 32's. I have them both in the USA version known as LX L, and they are 1st rate binoculars in the same neighborhood, quality wise, as the others mentioned. I also have a couple of Leica Trinovid BN's.

See below for an interesting comparison of 10X binoculars among the big 4. Nikon did quite well. This review was done in 2004. That was only 5 years ago. There really haven't been any astounding optical breakthroughs since then! The review is in English, BTW. Nikon has a good warranty program.


http://www.lintuvaruste.fi/hinnasto/optiikkaarvostelu/optics_8_Leicaultravid_GB.shtml

Bob

[Steve C]

The Steiner Peregrine XP is a clearly top tier alpha class binocular as well. I have the much less expensive ZEN and Promaster ELX ED binoculars which give me what I need. But, if I were to decide to spend the $$$ for a top tier glass the XP is most definitely my choice. There is a model called the Steiner Discovery which is the same as the Peregrine XP except for the fact the Discovery has diopter adjustments for both eyes, plus the center focus wheel.

At that level, the only ranking of relative merits that means anything is your ranking. You will buy it and use it and it must suit you, not somebody else.

[Pinewood]

Hello Blues...,

First of all, try first and believe your own eyes and hands, more than the comments of others. Those binoculars with ED glass, Zeiss Fl's, Leica Hd, Nikon Edge, Hawke, etc., may provide you with richer colour and crisper images than other binoculars.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood :scribe:

[stereotruckdriver]

Good sound advice Arthur! Believe your own eye's!!! Bryce...

[Veracocha]

Having compared all the makes listed in the op (and many more) last week at the Midland Bird Fair I can safely say you should pop along to a London Camera Exchange and try the Hawke Frontier ED against the Swaro's & Leica's. If you avoid the badge is best approach you will probably come away with the Hawke's. With the savings you made you can come away with the 10 x 43's to boot.

[denco@comcast.n]

If you look around you can get Nikon HG L's at very good prices now. Esp. in the 8 x 32's and 10 x 32's. I have them both in the USA version known as LX L, and they are 1st rate binoculars in the same neighborhood, quality wise, as the others mentioned. I also have a couple of Leica Trinovid BN's.

See below for an interesting comparison of 10X binoculars among the big 4. Nikon did quite well. This review was done in 2004. That was only 5 years ago. There really haven't been any astounding optical breakthroughs since then! The review is in English, BTW. Nikon has a good warranty program.


http://www.lintuvaruste.fi/hinnasto/optiikkaarvostelu/optics_8_Leicaultravid_GB.shtml

Bob


"There really haven't been any astounding optical breakthroughs since then!"

Sorry Bob but I have to disagree with you there! ED glass becoming generally available in less expensive binoculars like the Zen ED's and Hawke's is really an optical breakthrough and alot of these Chinese manufacturers are using newer and better optical designs with major performance advancements making really top notch optics available to the less well healed consumer. There always seem to be advancements in coatings so a new binocular model is often better that a five year old model because of it.The advancing technology is really exciting and it is bringing down the cost of really superb binoculars. My experience with ED binoculars has proven to me I would not buy a new binocular without it.(Unless of course it is a porro-prism like the Nikon SE). There really has been alot of progress in optics and binocular development in the last few years.

Dennis

[Kevin Purcell]

If you look around you can get Nikon HG L's at very good prices now. Esp. in the 8 x 32's and 10 x 32's.

Bob: do you have any links for this? I can recall seeing good prices on the HG L about 6 months ago but not so much recently.

Given the OP is in the UK if he's interested in trying out a Chinese ED bin to compare with the other's he should try to find a Hawke Frontier ED which should be rather easier to find in the UK. At least add it to the list.

I think the Zen Ray ED is a slightly better bin (but not by a huge amount). The trade off is ease of purchase (though ZR ship internationally) and ease of any warranty work which can be a pain with international shipping.

The other thing is try the bins. Trust your eyes: they know more than you think!

OP: What bins are you using right now?

[bluesinlondon]

Thanks so far everybody.

Can the £300 Hawke ED really compare with the £1000 Big Three? How can this be?

Kevin, the answer to your question about what I'm using currently is Nikon Action EX. Think it's time for an upgrade and I thought I might as well go all the way...

[Veracocha]

Thanks so far everybody.

Can the £300 Hawke ED really compare with the £1000 Big Three? How can this be?



Yes they compare very well, in the opinion of many optically better. At the birdfair I mention I asked the representatives to compare my Hawke's with their Swaro/Leica/Pentax/Kowa and not one of them could argue that their offering gave a better image.

Sure, the old argument around warranty came out as did the low light comparisons but all things being equal if they outclassed them in bright sunshine I don't expect the Hawke's to be far behing in any condition. Try them, you will have to convince yourself that you can buy four pairs of these for the single Alpha bins. LCE will do them for £260.

[falcondude]

Thanks so far everybody.

Can the £300 Hawke ED really compare with the £1000 Big Three? How can this be?



The price reduction and quality improvement on optics is long overdue. If the binoculars is as popular as personal computer, I am sure we will see better price and higher quality every few years. The Hawke ED and similarly configured Zen ED probably didn't make a breakthrough in term of absolute optical quality. But their real achievement is to deliver the same quality that could have costed for $1700 for $370.

[Kevin Purcell]

Thanks so far everybody.

Can the £300 Hawke ED really compare with the £1000 Big Three? How can this be?

Kevin, the answer to your question about what I'm using currently is Nikon Action EX. Think it's time for an upgrade and I thought I might as well go all the way...

How can it be? It is.

Read the humongous amount we've posted on the "Chinese ED" bins here: first the Promaster, then the Hawke then the Zen Ray.

They really are good. Not quite the tops (I can see the difference) but I think for most people that difference isn't enough for the extra cost. For some though it is. For others the time the company has been around and warranty service count for a lot (Nikon score well on that one). You have to figure out which camp you fall into.

Nikon Action EX is a nice bin and really rather clears the path of the cheaper roofs to get something with at least as nice view plus the ergo features of a roof. Plus I also think it should have sensitized you to a good view.

Going all the way is smart too. Often given advice that is often ignored until one builds up experience step by step.

Read a bit more for context but try some bins! Ergos count too. Which bins fit you best or feel the best is often the deciding factor at the top end.

BTW, is there a local birding group you hang out at? Often you can try out an interesting range of bins at a local watch with people only to happy to show off their latest and greatest (or the oldest and still greatest in some cases ;) ).

And aren't there some bird fairs coming up too?

Good luck.

[FrankD]

I still count the Nikon Premier/Venturer/HG/HGL/LX/LXL/ at the same performance/quality level of the Zeiss, Leica and Swaro models that were present up until very recently. I do have to say that I agree that ED/FL/HD glass makes a noticeably improvement to image quality. With that thought in mind I would argue that the Nikon EDGs, Leica Ultravid HDs, Swaro EL HDs and Zeiss FLs provide superior optical performance to the LXLs, Trinovids, ELs and original Zeiss Victorys.

I also enjoy using the Meopta Meostars, the Nikon SEs and the Zen Ray EDs. All provide superb optical performance at a significantly less expensive price.

[CharleyBird]

If you're looking in London, you could try Tottenham Court Road;
Kingsley Photographic about half way up north of Goodge Street on the west side stock Hawke (bit more expensive there than the LCE) and others,
Spectrum near the Warren Street at number 128 also on the west side stocks Steiner and others (though I bought my Steiners elsewhere)

Regards

[ceasar]

Bob: do you have any links for this? I can recall seeing good prices on the HG L about 6 months ago but not so much recently.

Given the OP is in the UK if he's interested in trying out a Chinese ED bin to compare with the other's he should try to find a Hawke Frontier ED which should be rather easier to find in the UK. At least add it to the list.

I think the Zen Ray ED is a slightly better bin (but not by a huge amount). The trade off is ease of purchase (though ZR ship internationally) and ease of any warranty work which can be a pain with international shipping.

The other thing is try the bins. Trust your eyes: they know more than you think!

OP: What bins are you using right now?

Kevin,
I don't spend time on European sites. I assume, rightly or wrongly, that Nikon is doing the same thing in Europe with their HG L as they are doing here in the USA with their LX L's and SE's which are now going under the name "Premier."

If one keeps alert, there are good buys yet to be found. Right now, Eagle Optics is selling the 10 x 42 SE Premier for $899.99. This is about $200.00 less than they sold for 2 years ago. Personal opinions of it's ergonomics aside, they are arguably still the best 10x birding binocular ever made. And it's doubtful if they have changed their lens coatings in years. The 8 x 32 Premier (old LX L) is selling for the same price, which is roughly what it always sold for. The same for the 8 x 42's and 10 x 42's. All much less expensive than the big 3. And they all have Nikon's warranty.

As for ED glass. Any one who wants to find out about it's merits in binoculars can review Henry Link's thoughts on it in a number of threads in this forum.

And, Yes, OP should try them out before buying them. And it wouldn't hurt to prowl around in the smaller stores. He might be able to find a deal there on some that haven't moved for years. It happens!
Cordially,
Bob

PS: I can't think of a better upgrade from a Nikon Action EX than to a Nikon SE!:t:

[ThoLa]

Thanks so far everybody.

Can the £300 Hawke ED really compare with the £1000 Big Three? How can this be?


No.
They can't. Of course.
You're being brainwashed.
You must simply realize that you do not get impartial advice in a place like this. Rather, there are many people with biased interests around who try to push people in certain directions.

T

[Sancho]

PS: I can't think of a better upgrade from a Nikon Action EX than to a Nikon SE!:t:

I´ll second that. If you don´t need "waterproof", and if you like the porro design, you would be hard-pressed to find optics like the Nikon 8x32 SE at any price. They can be had in the UK for about 500 euro...I got mine from Warehouse Express. Even though they´re not roof-prisms, they´re rubber-armoured and very, very comfortable in the hand.

[bluesinlondon]

Crikey... The can's open and there are worms all over the place!

Comments about Chinese EDs are er... interesting...

I've read praise of the Nikon SE's elsewhere too...

I notice there is no 8x42 version of the SE... Are you really saying that the 8x32 compares favourably with the 42 mm Leica/Swaro/Zeiss?

How much of a handicap is the 'non waterproof' (bear in mind I'm in the UK, and even as I write this, in June, it's p*****g down)?

[Veracocha]

No.
They can't. Of course.
You're being brainwashed.
You must simply realize that you do not get impartial advice in a place like this. Rather, there are many people with biased interests around who try to push people in certain directions.

T

So, when you say "many" does this mean you admit that there are some without a biased interest? Does that not offer a chance of impartial advice without the brainwashing you mention.

To dismiss opinion so readily smacks of arrogance.

[Sancho]

Crikey... The can's open and there are worms all over the place!

Comments about Chinese EDs are er... interesting...

I've read praise of the Nikon SE's elsewhere too...

I notice there is no 8x42 version of the SE... Are you really saying that the 8x32 compares favourably with the 42 mm Leica/Swaro/Zeiss?

How much of a handicap is the 'non waterproof' (bear in mind I'm in the UK, and even as I write this, in June, it's p*****g down)?
Yeah, it´s a minefield, and a field-day for optics marketeers. The Nikon SE 8x32 compares on a par with any top-end 8x42 out there. At least IMHO. I have a Swarovski 8.5x42, and the SE is sharper. Bear in mind also that the porro design gives a better 3D image, for close work or woodland. And as regards waterproofing, it came up on some other thread....I know the kind of weather you can experience (I´ve lived in the UK), but just think...I live in Ireland...we get those anticyclones before they even reach Wales! ;)

And now the downside...a lot of people experience "blackouts" with SE´s. The eyecups are a bit odd, I think without glasses they´re rather long(depending on the shape of your eye-sockets); I use them with glasses and get a perfect FOV with the eyecups rolled down almost fully.

The bottom line is....don´t buy yet. You need to test binos for your hands, your neck, your eyes and sockets and nose (and wallet). Try as many models as you can, in cloudy conditions if possible, in as many stores as you can, and from friends. Only when you´re reasonably sure of your preference should you buy...and then (unlike yours truly), don´t get too obsessed, all the top-end binos are similar and none are really "better" than the others...they only differ from each other in various minor aspects.

[dustyview]

Dry humor, ThoLa?

To the OP: As someone who has been in the market for two pairs of bins recently, I've spent some hours myself in the big sports retail stores here in the US (and some small places, too), viewing optical targets, out big picture windows, etc. I've made a point, when I find what seems like a great mid-priced binocular, to compare it to one from the big three (Leica, Zeiss and especially Swarovski, because of their favor among birders - I've now spent time with multiple samples from the EL line). The fact is, there are binoculars in the $200-500 range that are quite close in image quality to models costing US $1500-2000 (and seemingly build quality, too, although you would have to use a pair for a few years to really evaluate that). If you can, find someplace where you can try the new Chinese-made ED binoculars as well as other brands.


No.
They can't. Of course.
You're being brainwashed.
You must simply realize that you do not get impartial advice in a place like this. Rather, there are many people with biased interests around who try to push people in certain directions.

T

[FrankD]

I notice there is no 8x42 version of the SE... Are you really saying that the 8x32 compares favourably with the 42 mm Leica/Swaro/Zeiss?

I would agree as well. They are just as bright, just as sharp and actually noticeably lighter. The only "issue" I have ever heard mention is slightly more critical eye placement to avoid blackouts. I don't have this problem with them but I have read that others do.

[denco@comcast.n]

No.
They can't. Of course.
You're being brainwashed.
You must simply realize that you do not get impartial advice in a place like this. Rather, there are many people with biased interests around who try to push people in certain directions.

T

Just for the record I have no biased interest. My opinions were based on comparing the binoculars in question and giving my honest opinion. I would have never sold my Leica Trinovids and Nikon HG if they were better than the Zen ED 8x42. I have no interest in Zen at all. I just compared the three and said these Zen's are better than these Leica's and better than these Nikon's so why keep them. I kept the best of the three. In fact it was very easy to see the Zen's were sharper and produced a better image. It was not even close. Try them and make your own judgement. After viewing through the Zen I hated to go back to the Leica's or the Nikon HG's and that's the truth. The first time I looked through the Zen Ray's after I received them I said to myself "HOLY SXXXT THESE ARE GOOD! AND FOR ONLY $370.00. WOW!" I am very impressed with them even if you forget the price.

Dennis

[KLS]

I have the 8x32 LX the 8x32 SE and an 8x43 Zen Ray. On a recent trip to Costa Rica I used the SE and my wife used the LX, for no particular reason other than she liked the feel of the LX better. We traded after a day or so and I found that the SE was by far my favored binocular. It's hard to explain why, but I assume it was the 3D effect, because when I compare them side by side I really can't see a difference in clarity. Since then I have bought the Zen's (because I have no self-control) and I love them. If I were deciding which alpha to buy, I'd get a pair of the SE's for good weather and the Zen's in case it rained, and you'd probably have about $800 left over to pay a porter to carry them for you.

[statestat]

I would like to second Steve's vote for the Steiner Peregrine XP as a top notch bino. I have Lecia, Swaro, and Zeiss all good but the Peregrines are up there as well, in some ways better. Incredable ergonomics, eye relief great for eye glasses, and clarity that is breathtaking. Seem to be built like a tank like but balance perfectly, at least for me. I hope you can find a pair to look through and maybe they will fit you as well as they have for me. I keep my other binos for visitors and guest by the Peregrines are always in my hands.

[Kevin Purcell]

Excellent, KLS!

[denco@comcast.n]

I have the 8x32 LX the 8x32 SE and an 8x43 Zen Ray. On a recent trip to Costa Rica I used the SE and my wife used the LX, for no particular reason other than she liked the feel of the LX better. We traded after a day or so and I found that the SE was by far my favored binocular. It's hard to explain why, but I assume it was the 3D effect, because when I compare them side by side I really can't see a difference in clarity. Since then I have bought the Zen's (because I have no self-control) and I love them. If I were deciding which alpha to buy, I'd get a pair of the SE's for good weather and the Zen's in case it rained, and you'd probably have about $800 left over to pay a porter to carry them for you.

I had to laugh at your conclusion because it is the same as mine. I have my Nikon 8x32 SE's for good weather as the very best optics I have seen and I have my Zen 8x43 ED's for bad weather or just when I want that roof-prism view because they are about the best roof-prisms I have seen. I know why you liked the Nikon SE's better than the LX's though. They are clearer and SHARPER! You have to have to look at something like fine print or a resolution chart to see the obvious difference. The SE's also have almost no CA's like the Zen's so colors are richer and more alive and you get that 3D effect and the Porro's are brighter too because they transmit more light. My third pair of binoculars is the Canon 12x36 IS II because the stabilization system let's you see detail at long distances that you can't see with other binoculars. They don't have the wonderful optics of neither the Nikon SE nor the Zen though but they have their place. Each binocular is the best in it's own class.

Dennis

[bluesinlondon]

Thanks again all...

Just to re-cap, I'm going to try everything, but logistics mean it'll be good to have a shortlist so, in addition to the Lieca/Swaro/Zeiss...

Some say Hawke Frontier ED are as good as the 'alpha' bins. Anybody else got an opinion on this?

Some say the 8x32 Nikon SEs are better than the 40+mm alphas... Again, any other views on this?

What about the 'non-waterproof'-ness of the SEs? Just how much of a problem is this? If I use them the rain, are they going to fog up?

Are there any others I should consider?

Bear in mind, what I'm after here is the best single pair of bins for general birdwatching - I'm a camper/hiker too, so having several pairs for different situations isn't really an option. Whilst price is definitely a factor, I'd like to know which is the 'Best' regardless of cost, then I can decide if the extra money is worth it.

How about this... You're going to be cast away on a desert island (where it rains as often as it's sunny) for at least the next ten years and you can take one pair of binoculars with you (that you don't have to pay for). What are they gonna be?

[Veracocha]

Thanks again all...

Just to re-cap, I'm going to try everything, but logistics mean it'll be good to have a shortlist so, in addition to the Lieca/Swaro/Zeiss...

Some say Hawke Frontier ED are as good as the 'alpha' bins. Anybody else got an opinion on this?

Some say the 8x32 Nikon SEs are better than the 40+mm alphas... Again, any other views on this?

What about the 'non-waterproof'-ness of the SEs? Just how much of a problem is this? If I use them the rain, are they going to fog up?

Are there any others I should consider?

Bear in mind, what I'm after here is the best single pair of bins for general birdwatching - I'm a camper/hiker too, so having several pairs for different situations isn't really an option. Whilst price is definitely a factor, I'd like to know which is the 'Best' regardless of cost, then I can decide if the extra money is worth it.

How about this... You're going to be cast away on a desert island (where it rains as often as it's sunny) for at least the next ten years and you can take one pair of binoculars with you (that you don't have to pay for). What are they gonna be?

Hawke Frontier ED 10 x 43. simples.

[NoSpringChicken]

It's a bit more confusing now you have thrown the camping/hiking element into the mix. Will you want to leave £1000 plus worth of binoculars in the tent in the evening or will you be taking them out with you? If so, a small, inconspicuous pair might be more suitable than 8x42s. Or perhaps the cheaper Hawkes or SEs if you are leaving them behind.

I haven't tried the Nikon SE porros but I think fogging could be a problem in very bad weather. Even my 8x32 Trinovids let in water once in very hard rain. Everybody seems to rate the SEs highly for their optics, though.

I tried the Hawke Frontier ED but, while I thought they were superb optically, I hated the slow, sticky focusing action so that would eliminate them for me.

With a limitless budget, I would be happy with any of the models you mention but, on balance, I would probably opt for Swaro ELs, mainly for their superb after sales reputation.

Go and try out as many as possible and buy the ones which you like, regardless of what everybody else thinks.

Ron

[FrankD]

Some say Hawke Frontier ED are as good as the 'alpha' bins. Anybody else got an opinion on this?

I thought they were very, very close. The only issue optically that I had with them is the issue with stray light around the very outer edge of the image/beginning of the fieldstop. It was only evident in certain conditions but it was noticeable in comparison to the Zen Ray and the Promaster.

Some say the 8x32 Nikon SEs are better than the 40+mm alphas... Again, any other views on this?

Personally I think it depends which 40 mm Alphas you are referring to. I tend to prefer the Zeiss FL 7x42s to the SEs because of the increased brightness, field of view and chromatic aberration control but other than that particular model/configuration I would choose the SEs...granted I have not tried the Ultravid HDs or the Swaro EL EDs yet.

How about this... You're going to be cast away on a desert island (where it rains as often as it's sunny) for at least the next ten years and you can take one pair of binoculars with you (that you don't have to pay for). What are they gonna be?

Considering the above quote and also that you are going to be hiking with them I think I would probably be guided more towards a 32 mm pair of waterproof binoculars. That would lead me to either the Swaro EL 8x32 or the Zeiss FL 8x32. I would be happy with either as my "only binocular" in those conditions.

[ceasar]

I agree with Frank on the 32 mm binoculars, if you really are going to spend a lot of time with them backpacking. With that in mind, you might also look at the Swarovski 8 x 30 SLC, especially if you are looking to save some money. They usually sell for about $500.00 less than the 8 x 32 EL. Right now, in the USA, Cabela's and Eagle Optics are selling them at a $200.00 saving below their regular price. They are popular with hunters for their toughness. Also the Nikon 8 x 32 HG L Premiums (USA version LX L) are also selling for $899.00.

http://www.eagleoptics.com/binoculars/swarovski/swarovski-slcnew-8x30-wb-binocular-with-snap-shot-adapter

Bob

[KLS]

In spite of my previous recommendation (an SE and a Zen) for one binocular with price being no object, for me it would be the Swaro 8x32 EL. I suspect others bins are better in some ways, but those feel so good in my hands that I could live with some minor optical shortcomings. My guess is you'll be happy with any of the bins recommended here, so get the ones that feel and look the best to YOU.

[denco@comcast.n]

In spite of my previous recommendation (an SE and a Zen) for one binocular with price being no object, for me it would be the Swaro 8x32 EL. I suspect others bins are better in some ways, but those feel so good in my hands that I could live with some minor optical shortcomings. My guess is you'll be happy with any of the bins recommended here, so get the ones that feel and look the best to YOU.

I have had the 8x32 Swarovski EL for a short time and sold them. I found them to have alot of optical shortcomings for me. I really don't understand the desire for these outside of their nice ergonomics. I find the Zeiss FL, Leica Trinovid and Zen Ray ED to be superior. That's just my opinion though. You really have to decide for yourself but I think sometimes there is such a preconceived idea of what should be good that it is self fulfilling. I think you could put a Swarovski label on a Zen Ray and people that like a Swaro would think they were great. I guess you go partly by a companies reputation.

Dennis

[KLS]

"I have had the 8x32 Swarovski EL for a short time and sold them. I found them to have alot of optical shortcomings for me. "

It's good for me to hear that, because I spend way too much money on optics and I need a good reason NOT to buy them. I've looked at them at the store, and they look great, but so does everything else - in the store. I bought the 15x56's a while back and I could have spent that money a little better.

[dalat]

[I] I've looked at them at the store, and they look great, but so does everything else - in the store.

That's the point! In the store it's really hard to compare optics at a high level.

It's in the difficult situations such as low light, big light differences (like in the forest where the sun glares through), and especially back light where I really feal what the optics of my Leicas are worth. In bright sunshine, even my old crap binoculars deliver an acceptable image.

I'd be interested how acutally the chinese wonder-bins perform in those difficult light conditions. I've not yet seen some more in-depth comparision with other high-end bins regarding those criteria. Or is there any that I've missed?

Florian

[denco@comcast.n]

That's the point! In the store it's really hard to compare optics at a high level.

It's in the difficult situations such as low light, big light differences (like in the forest where the sun glares through), and especially back light where I really feal what the optics of my Leicas are worth. In bright sunshine, even my old crap binoculars deliver an acceptable image.

I'd be interested how acutally the chinese wonder-bins perform in those difficult light conditions. I've not yet seen some more in-depth comparision with other high-end bins regarding those criteria. Or is there any that I've missed?

Florian

I had my Zen's out tonite just at dusk and they performed as good as any of the Alphas I have had. A nice BIG flat FOV almost right to the edge. Pretty awesome and enjoyable view. Good contrast also. Very, very bright. Try a pair and compare them to your Leicas. I think you will be impressed. Unless you have HD's I bet you sell your Leica's! I did.

Dennis

[dalat]

Hi, I've got the HDs and now i spent all that money, I do not intend to ever sell them ;)

Apart the optics, there has been a number of other reasons why I choose them: They are the most compact binos out there, they look and feel as they will not fall apart in 50 years, they feel great in my hands (the Swaro did too) and I just liked them most of all...

After all that hype, I'd still be interested to look through Zens or similar. But in my part of the world, I cannot just order and send back. That's why a more complete review would be welcome.

[FrankD]

After all that hype, I'd still be interested to look through Zens or similar. But in my part of the world, I cannot just order and send back. That's why a more complete review would be welcome.

Dalat,

What exactly are you looking for? I think all of the open-bridge ED bins have been written about extensively on here.

However, considering your comments and those just recently posted about low light performance I would be more than happy to pull several of my bins out to do a twilight/low light comparison this evening. I no longer have any of the high end Zeiss, Swaro or Leicas but I do have the 8x32 SE and the 8x42 Meopta Meostar for direct comparison.

[dalat]

Well, I don't want to dig too much in this discussion. It's just that I remember a lot of rather general praise of those bins, also a lot of comparison regarding resolution and edge-to-edge sharpness, but not so much comparison for the different difficult light conditions that I mentionned above (especially back-light, which i found being the most challenging situation for most optics). But as I also said above, maybe I just missed it, because i surely did not read all of the thousend posts.

But I am happy with the bins I have, so please no efforts of testing just for me. ;)

[dalat]

Hi again, did some more research in the forums and found a post that also answers that question. Sorry for bothering then. :)

[Sancho]

How about this... You're going to be cast away on a desert island (where it rains as often as it's sunny) for at least the next ten years and you can take one pair of binoculars with you (that you don't have to pay for). What are they gonna be?
Aaaaargh! That question will have many optics-obsessed BF folk sleepless for many nights. But my instant, un-filtered response, despite all I´ve said about the merits of Nikon SE 8x32, Canon IS 12x36, etc. etc., is Swarovski EL 8.5x42. If I were allowed just one bino. On a desert island. Where it´s rainy and sunny. For ten years. (But in real life, I use the SE´s, the IS, and the EL´s about equally, Spoiled rotten, me).

Hi again, did some more research in the forums and found a post that also answers that question. Sorry for bothering then. :)
Dalat, you´re not bothering anyone, and your contributions are informative and thought-provoking. We´re just a bunch of sad folk obsessed with dual-tubes with glass in them.;)

[Kevin Conville]

... You're going to be cast away on a desert island (where it rains as often as it's sunny) for at least the next ten years and you can take one pair of binoculars with you...

Of the brands being mentioned in this thread, Leica or Swarovski.

What I'd really want is Fujinon FMT-SX 10x50s as I probably will be scanning the horizon for rescuers far more than birding ;), and ultimate reliability in addition to kick ass performance sounds right. Better for night sky as well!

[username]

Bluesinlondon........i tried out all the 'big' brand bins.....got nikon HG's 8X32's....preferred them to the swaro 32's...[better colour..to my eyes]...leica ultravids?...everyone i've 'had a go on' in the field has got a dodgy focus wheel...as do swaro's...tho the amount of 'play' in wheels is variable...some are ridiculously bad for high price bins! Quality control seems to be down the pan these days. All prices?...going up on July 1st...! All 'top' brands you mentioned are great optically.....[beware Zeiss FL's have had trouble with rubber armoring coming off].....all personal preference obviously...try em all..!!...quickly....!

[Fireform]

Bluesinlondon........i tried out all the 'big' brand bins.....got nikon HG's 8X32's....preferred them to the swaro 32's...[better colour..to my eyes]...leica ultravids?...everyone i've 'had a go on' in the field has got a dodgy focus wheel...as do swaro's...tho the amount of 'play' in wheels is variable...some are ridiculously bad for high price bins! Quality control seems to be down the pan these days. All prices?...going up on July 1st...! All 'top' brands you mentioned are great optically.....[beware Zeiss FL's have had trouble with rubber armoring coming off].....all personal preference obviously...try em all..!!...quickly....!

I guess I'm one of the few people to have had an extended audition with the Nikon EDG, but for what it's worth, they are alpha bins in every way. They would look nice on the leather upholstery of a Jaguar, and they hit all the right tactile buttons. Oh, and the image is pretty good too.

[spyglass2]

My desert island glass would be a Canon 15x50, hands down. It'll do more things better than any bino I have or have tried. (Well, except flutterby watching). 'Course, wd also need a few womenfolk, a good supply of comestibles and a large cooler of Sam Adams....oh, and a very good hammock.

[denco@comcast.n]

My desert island glass would be a Canon 15x50, hands down. It'll do more things better than any bino I have or have tried. (Well, except flutterby watching). 'Course, wd also need a few womenfolk, a good supply of comestibles and a large cooler of Sam Adams....oh, and a very good hammock.

I agree with the Canon IS because I have the 12x36 IS and it or the 15 or 18 would be excellent looking for ships passing by but I would worry about the waterproofness issue. Maybe the waterproof Canon IS would work. I think I could do without the womenfolk I would cherish the peace and quite! Oh and a computer so you could read Bird Forum. This is kind of sounding good!

Dennis

[denco@comcast.n]

I guess I'm one of the few people to have had an extended audition with the Nikon EDG, but for what it's worth, they are alpha bins in every way. They would look nice on the leather upholstery of a Jaguar, and they hit all the right tactile buttons. Oh, and the image is pretty good too.

Would you say the optics on the Nikon EDG's are equal or better than the top ED alphas?

Dennis

[Kevin Conville]

My desert island glass would be a Canon 15x50, hands down.

Hands down?

I agree with the Canon IS because I have the 12x36 IS and it or the 15 or 18 would be excellent looking for ships passing by but I would worry about the waterproofness issue.

Another one, eh?


I hope you guys aren't on the plane or ship with me when it wrecks ;)
Do you play chess one move at a time as well?

What'll you guys do for um, batteries?
And, when those batteries die... do you think that IS Canon will resist the elements for 10 years of rain, sun, and sand?
Aren't there little servos and such in those things?

As far as steadiness with my preferred Fujinons, I'll have plenty of time to improvise a tripod for scanning for ships. :t:

[denco@comcast.n]

Hands down?



Another one, eh?


I hope you guys aren't on the plane or ship with me when it wrecks ;)
Do you play chess one move at a time as well?

What'll you guys do for um, batteries?
And, when those batteries die... do you think that IS Canon will resist the elements for 10 years of rain, sun, and sand?
Aren't there little servos and such in those things?





As far as steadiness with my preferred Fujinons, I'll have plenty of time to improvise a tripod for scanning for ships. :t:

Use rechargeables and a LONG cord to charge them with or just take a case of Lithium batteries with you they have a ten year shelf life or so.

Dennis

[Kevin Purcell]

The Canon IS 10x30 works fine WITHOUT batteries. That's one of the reasons I like it.

For some reason I really don't fully understand I can hold this 10x more steady than any other 10x. It's weird. It's so weird that I'd like to see some other companies think about making rather boxy compact porro 2 bins. Think SE in a very odd box. Then the IS on top of that when you need it is just great.

BTW, I use a pair of NiMH (which last multiple days) and carry a backup pair of alkalines to help me through the rest of the day. If I was in an really cold environment I'd keep a spare pair of lithium. I I was really organized and really did full days birding I'd still probably only need one pair of NiMH per day but I'd carry a aspare apir. I've had it conk out once in the field. And swapped the alkalines in until the next day.

After using so many different bins and seeing the odd improvement (Chinese EDs, alphas, decent porros and now these) I'm surprised that I'm so happy with these despite the way they don't control stray color or have somewhat fiddley eye placement or aren't waterproof or have a pretty lousy warranty.

What I regret is I don't have more choice in IS bins. But perhaps when the patents expire ...

The servos work fine. I'm sure these may be more delicate and these ones arent' waterproof. But on the alpha scale of $100 per year they only have to last the US warranty period (3 years). In fact that's rather a problem for the 10x42 L waterproof bins. They need to last 10 years for that payback. And I really do wonder about that. Still I'm tempted but I suspect the easy focus and the easy grip are part of the 10x30.

And just think of all those IDs you'll miss over those 10 years that the IS bin guy with you will get ;) Seriously, I've already done it a couple of times birding with some friends ("Did you see the heads of the ospreys in that nest ... No? Oh?" for a nest 1km or so distant.

[bluesinlondon]

Hee hee. No scanning for ships allowed in the 'Dessert Island' scenario. Nor is there any electricity for recharging batteries! You are allowed to look at the night sky, but only for astronomy, not for navigation off the island.

[username]

I guess I'm one of the few people to have had an extended audition with the Nikon EDG, but for what it's worth, they are alpha bins in every way. They would look nice on the leather upholstery of a Jaguar, and they hit all the right tactile buttons. Oh, and the image is pretty good too.

You are 'spot on' with the hitting the right 'tactile buttons'...my HG's just 'feel' the 'biz'..well balanced...solid...[oh yeah....and it has a focus wheel that's actually smooth]! I always make a point to check out all the latest binoculars and have been doing so since the mid seventies. Thing that really 'bugs me' is that with all the great optical advances in recent years....the build quality n design seems to have become almost secondary....plus quality control...which i have stated before...is crap with some companies. I lost faith in Leica..[as they are known now]....they slowly went downhill since my trinovid 'black spot' [german] Leitz bins...and the focus wheel is still smooth! Don't know how useful 'bluesinlondon' is finding all this info...;)

ps...message to the 'big' companies...get the basics 'sorted' will ya?...oh yes...and while i'm at it...if you're gonna charge such 'top dollar' prices then you'd better improve you're quality control too!

[POP]

Jenoptens 10x50 MAGIC archie tannyer Mugsie Spanyer and a large VAT

POP

[denco@comcast.n]

Hee hee. No scanning for ships in the 'Dessert Island' scenario. Nor is there any electricity for recharging batteries! You are allowed to look at the night sky, but only for astronomy, not for navigation off the island.

I said a LONG cord to reach the Mainland under the ocean!

Dennis

[Sancho]

My desert island glass would be a Canon 15x50, hands down. It'll do more things better than any bino I have or have tried. (Well, except flutterby watching). 'Course, wd also need a few womenfolk, a good supply of comestibles and a large cooler of Sam Adams....oh, and a very good hammock.

Of course, if we bring our Canon IS binos, we need to bring a solar panel, a recharger and whole lot of rechargeable batteries. But if it´s cloudy....
And if we bring the women, we need to bring large trunks for their shoes. And we need some matches or basic scout-troop fire-making skills because at some stage we´re going to get sick of seawatching and eating fruit, and a Big Barbecue might relieve the monotony.

[Kevin Conville]

Of course, if we bring our Canon IS binos, we need to bring a solar panel, a recharger and whole lot of rechargeable batteries. But if it´s cloudy....
And if we bring the women, we need to bring large trunks for their shoes. And we need some matches or basic scout-troop fire-making skills because at some stage we´re going to get sick of seawatching and eating fruit, and a Big Barbecue might relieve the monotony.

This is beginning to sound like Gilligan's Island |:d|
So stay prepared, theirs was but a three hour cruise!

[Sancho]

Actually can I have a Polynesian Island populated entirely by Cheerful Maidens enthusiastically running their own Binocular Factory? If they´re irresistibly attracted to Hiberno-Caucasian mediocrities with incongruously Hispanic online monikers, that´s a bonus.

Back in wakey-wakey land, I´ve been debating the issue with Myself, and Myself still reckons EL 8.5x42, because they´re bomb-proof. (Look what they did to Bikini Atoll).

[FrankD]

Keep talkin' like that Kevin and something else is going to have to go up on the auction block to clear the way for a pair of 10x30 IS.

;)

[KorHaan]

The Canon IS 10x30 works fine WITHOUT batteries. That's one of the reasons I like it.

For some reason I really don't fully understand I can hold this 10x more steady than any other 10x. It's weird. It's so weird that I'd like to see some other companies think about making rather boxy compact porro 2 bins. Think SE in a very odd box. Then the IS on top of that when you need it is just great.

BTW, I use a pair of NiMH (which last multiple days) and carry a backup pair of alkalines to help me through the rest of the day. If I was in an really cold environment I'd keep a spare pair of lithium. I I was really organized and really did full days birding I'd still probably only need one pair of NiMH per day but I'd carry a aspare apir. I've had it conk out once in the field. And swapped the alkalines in until the next day.

After using so many different bins and seeing the odd improvement (Chinese EDs, alphas, decent porros and now these) I'm surprised that I'm so happy with these despite the way they don't control stray color or have somewhat fiddley eye placement or aren't waterproof or have a pretty lousy warranty.

What I regret is I don't have more choice in IS bins. But perhaps when the patents expire ...

The servos work fine. I'm sure these may be more delicate and these ones arent' waterproof. But on the alpha scale of $100 per year they only have to last the US warranty period (3 years). In fact that's rather a problem for the 10x42 L waterproof bins. They need to last 10 years for that payback. And I really do wonder about that. Still I'm tempted but I suspect the easy focus and the easy grip are part of the 10x30.

And just think of all those IDs you'll miss over those 10 years that the IS bin guy with you will get ;) Seriously, I've already done it a couple of times birding with some friends ("Did you see the heads of the ospreys in that nest ... No? Oh?" for a nest 1km or so distant.

Excellent Kevin P!

I too like the boxlike body of the 10x30's. I've been thinking to buy the 10x42 L IS but got the 18x50's instead. These are the best of the pack, for me that is, as the IS really shows details that I couldn't pick up with 10x42 L IS no matter how good its optics; I compared both last year.

The 10x30 IS's now look so small I enjoy holding them even more; they're like compacts to me, but their sharpness+steady view are a killer combination. And boy are they light and bright!

My choice for the deserted island would be the 18x50 IS's of course, as they would be more rainproof regarding the optic flats on the objectives, plus a huge supply of batteries. If I eventually run out of batteries I'm long done constructing a tripod. Then, if they finally went FUBAR I would consider the construction of a raft.

But I won't be on the plane that crashed; I hate flying.

Regards, Ronald

[Sancho]

Excellent Kevin P!

I too like the boxlike body of the 10x30's.

The IS 12x36 really is nice to hold too, IMHO (pretty much the same body design as the 10x30, no?). I can "one-hand" with it quite easily, even engaging the IS button with my index finger. But it looks so odd I can imagine it puts lots of people off.

[Taxboy]

Yes they compare very well, in the opinion of many optically better. At the birdfair I mention I asked the representatives to compare my Hawke's with their Swaro/Leica/Pentax/Kowa and not one of them could argue that their offering gave a better image.

Sure, the old argument around warranty came out as did the low light comparisons but all things being equal if they outclassed them in bright sunshine I don't expect the Hawke's to be far behing in any condition. Try them, you will have to convince yourself that you can buy four pairs of these for the single Alpha bins. LCE will do them for £260.

That's a very good price for the Hawke's - was it a birdfair special or did you just haggle hard ;)

[Veracocha]

That's a very good price for the Hawke's - was it a birdfair special or did you just haggle hard ;)

Actually it was LCE in Worcester that did them for that price. I had spent quite a bit with them a few days before on the Hawke 10X43 so pushed them for a pair of 8x43. I sold them on here last week and immediately regretted it.

[MattX]

how do the Hawke compare to the Swarovski ELs and the Zeiss FLs 8x42?

How well do they perform in the shadows and in low light?

What about the sweet spot and the flat field?

Is the flat field similar to the Meopta bins?

[FrankD]

Is the flat field similar to the Meopta bins?

From what I remember of the Hawke's, and now the Zen EDs, no, not quite. I seem to remember the Hawke's having slightly more field curvature around the edges of the image. The Meopta's have a very unique view because of the field flattener element.

[bluesinlondon]

Well, just in the interest of completeness, I thought I'd let you all know that I ended up with a pair of... Nikon HG-L.

Got 'em for the bargain price of £699. £400 - £600 cheaper than 'Alpha' bins... That kind of money talks.

[CLRobles]

Well, just in the interest of completeness, I thought I'd let you all know that I ended up with a pair of... Nikon HG-L.

Got 'em for the bargain price of £699. £400 - £600 cheaper than 'Alpha' bins... That kind of money talks.
Good show blues:clap: these are very good bins and will last you a lifetime!

[ronh]

An island. I don't think fresh fish, flowers, and swaying hula girls when I think island. I think Iwo Jima, Bikini Atol, Bay of Pigs. Bad stuff happens on islands. Golly I love my sleek new Zeiss, but I'd have to go with the 7x50 Fujinon FMT-SX. If I see you there Kevin, we'll have a shootout.
Ron

[Kevin Purcell]

An island. I don't think fresh fish, flowers, and swaying hula girls when I think island. I think Iwo Jima, Bikini Atol, Bay of Pigs. Bad stuff happens on islands. Golly I love my sleek new Zeiss, but I'd have to go with the 7x50 Fujinon FMT-SX. If I see you there Kevin, we'll have a shootout.
Ron

Is that with the shotgun or the Zeiss FL 7x42? ;)

If you are thinking South Pacific atoll islands the fauna (and the flora) is really rather limited on land but the offshore fauna is amazing. I'm talking tens of bird species on land and in the order of 1000 species in the water. The further they get from continental landmasses the fewer there are.

So perhaps the best pair of bins is a pair of snorkeling goggles ;)

But lets assume that the OP meant somewhere more like Papua New Guinea -- an amazing birding (and butterflying) island. 37 species of birds of paradise in the canopy.

Hmmm, perhaps I'd borrow SteveC's Leupold Gold Ring Switchpower bins? Or settle for an wide field 8x ir 7x.

Perhaps a robust scope would be permitted so we can see those canopy birds well ;)

Not quite as small island as you might imagine but plenty harsh enough.