who makes what and for who?

[the_handy_andy]

I think this could be a useful thread if we can put together a list of brands against the companies that actually manufacture binoculars so that if a certain brand is unavailable in one country we can identify alternatives that are made by the same people (so should be as good....or bad).

so here is a starting list of brands (some of these will manufacture their own bins)

Leica
Nikon
Canon
Olympus
Pentax
Swarovski
Bresser
Bushnell
Fujifilm
Helios
Kowa
Minox
Opticron
Pyser-sgi
Steiner
Swift
Ziess
Alpen
Brunton
Burris
Carson
Century Systems
Docter
Galileo
Leupold
Ncstar
Oberwerk
Simmons (Meade)
Vortex
Yukon
Barska
Konus
Hawke
Vanguard
Praktica
Vixen
Viking
RSPB
Optolyth
Optical Hardware
Minolta
Meopta
Celeston
Camlink
Audubon
Acuter
Tasco
Luger
Meade
William Optics
Bynolyt

why we have to have so many brands is beyond me!!!!

Andrew

[the_handy_andy]

from globalsources.com

in mainland China we have

Jaxy Optical Instrument Co. Ltd

Chongqing Dontop Optics Co. Ltd.

Kinsun International Trade Co.,Ltd

Henan Costar Group Co. ,Ltd

Chinamericanada Industrial Co. Ltd

Oriental Industries Company Limited

Fuzhou Denovo International Co.,Ltd

CATIC Fujian Co. Ltd

[Steve C]

This topic gets beat to death every so often. Point of fact is that many nearly identical binoculars with different labels are made for different companies by some of the same factories. Point is, even if you can figure out that LOW (Light Optical Works) from Japan makes several different binoculars for different companies, then the assumption cannot follow that they are the same.

[the_handy_andy]

This topic gets beat to death every so often. Point of fact is that many nearly identical binoculars with different labels are made for different companies by some of the same factories. Point is, even if you can figure out that LOW (Light Optical Works) from Japan makes several different binoculars for different companies, then the assumption cannot follow that they are the same.

yes but......it would give someone an idea of the quality (not necessarily something being the same) of the bins they are buying if they are unlucky enough to live somewhere where its not very easy to find a retailer where you can go in and try before buying (which probably applies to a large proportion of the people looking at getting some bins). The net is a good place to get info but one good brand may not be available in all countries....so if there is a source of info that brand X (which is good) is made by company A who also manufacture brands Y and Z then the possibiltiy is that Y and Z may also be good (caveat emptor of course).
If someone is producing high quality optics for one person then it is unlikley that they will pay out retool their factory to produce lower quality optics for the rest. OK the QC may slip but you could still get a good set of bins at a much lower price.

For whatever reason we are now living in times where most people are being a lot more carefull with their money so they WILL be going for cheaper brands. I am just saying that it would be usefull if there was info out there that brands Y and Z may be just as good as X as they are made in the same factory as X. On the flip side if brand X is at the bottom of the pile in the optical quality stakes, then Y and Z should be avaoided.

But this is the thing a factory could be ISO accredited but all that shows is that they produce things consistantly to a set quality.....which does not have to be good....so again the more info someone has the better the choice that they can make about what brand to go for.

Of course for a small part of the population money and time is no object so they can get their chauffer to drive them miles to an expensive shop to get a pair of Leicas.

I am not having a go at the high end of the market....they have their place.....in the hands of people who would use them on a day to day basis in their jobs..... I can't afford Leica etc I am firmly in the budget end of the market but I still want to be able to buy something with as much info as I can find....... so if I can get brands Y and Z and I have found a review that says brand X is good then it gives me a good starting point. I may have been able to try brand Z but brand Y may have the same spec for less money. Its a no brainer

[Steve C]

The competition is getting pretty intense in mid price binocular land, regardless of who makes it for who. When the reputation of a company is riding on the quality the buyer gets for the price, nobody is going to accept a dud from someplace.

As long as the quality keeps getting better for the price paid, and from what I have seen it is, Then I quite frankly don't care who makes it. There is no big secret about making binoculars anymore. Technology is no longer overwhelming or difficult.

Besides, I think it is largely an investigation worthy of Sherlock Holmes anyway. I doubt if you call Vortex, Opticron, or somebody else and aske them who makes their binoculars, that they will have any intention of telling you.

That is my two cents on the subject. ;)

[the_handy_andy]

The competition is getting pretty intense in mid price binocular land, regardless of who makes it for who. When the reputation of a company is riding on the quality the buyer gets for the price, nobody is going to accept a dud from someplace.

As long as the quality keeps getting better for the price paid, and from what I have seen it is, Then I quite frankly don't care who makes it. There is no big secret about making binoculars anymore. Technology is no longer overwhelming or difficult.

Besides, I think it is largely an investigation worthy of Sherlock Holmes anyway. I doubt if you call Vortex, Opticron, or somebody else and aske them who makes their binoculars, that they will have any intention of telling you.

That is my two cents on the subject. ;)

I am probably going to be kicked off for saying this but for petes sakes Steve C what you said isn't worth 2 cents if you can't add anything positive to this thread, then keep it to yourself.

Of course the various brands aren't going to say where they source from. but surely this is a forum for sharing information, otherwise what is the pooint of the net. I would have thought a forum such as this would have been the ideal place to share knowledge. I must have been wrong.....

[spyglass2]

Bill Beacom ("Binocular Bill") once told me during a phone chat on old binos that Kowa and Asahi Optical (Pentax) were by far the largest producers until the late 90's, making models for over two dozen companies that market optics (this was 8-9 yrs ago). I've noticed that many of the mid-price units are virtually clones of one another, except for cosmetics and perhaps a slight change in coating recipes. To my knowledge, only Zeiss, Swaro, Leitz, Nikon (hi-end only) do all their own work, in addition to Kowa and Pentax. I believe Nikon's mid lines, and everything from Bushnell, Celestron, Meade, Swift, et al, are made for them by various Japanese mfrs to spec. I have heard, tho, that Leupolds Gold Ring line is US made. And many of the Japanese outfits have set up facilities in China, Taiwan, Phillipines, etc, so your bino/scope could be of true "mixed parentage"....not that it matters that much, I guess, as long as the unit works to satisfaction, right?

As an aside, the above mentioned gentleman was the one who first obtained the JB/JE list from the Japan Telescope Inst, the quality control group set up after the war, and arranged for its translation....so he has the credentials. I believe it's still on Peter Abrahams website, telscope@europa.com

[elkcub]

No you're not wrong. This is a place to share knowledge, but it's not always "ideal." Maybe it could be, I don't know. Personally, I don't see the down side to someone trying to pull order out of chaos, although in this case it may not be easily accomplished. At least from my limited experience with Swift Audubons, the main manufacturer (Hiyoshi Kogaku) also made non-Swift products that shared the same mechanical and optical qualities. Sometimes these had superior qualities, as with the ultra-wide Linet brand. Your reasoning about production lines is probably correct. However, I've also discovered that the "manufacturer" is not monolithic. In some instances, such as the earliest Audubons, several Japanese suppliers provided parts to Hiyoshi that were not even interchangeable. So, ... you see where this is going. In the end we may only be able to refer to the brand name, serial number, etc., and even then not have an iron clad basis to establish end-product equivalence.

Nonetheless, there are probably several cases, at least, where the end-products are essentially identical except for badges, and in these cases it would be valuable to know which they are. A table would help. Teasing out which is which, however, might be daunting. Also keep in mind that importers like EO, Orion, etc. may fine tune products for one reason or another.

Anyway, I'm certainly with you in spirit. :t:

Regards,
Ed

[HoosierGuy]

I have a Zed Ed 10x. Saw Promasters in the mall and they have they same cap on the focus knob. Looked at the new Atlas binos on Eagle optics and they look exactly like my Zen ED's, even with the same focus knob and same color of focus knob.

So what is the deal? Are they all from the same factory? Are all the factories located in a central area and they share suppliers? As big as China is, they can only produce one manufacturer of above average binoculars?

[Kevin Purcell]

I have a Zed Ed 10x. Saw Promasters in the mall and they have they same cap on the focus knob. Looked at the new Atlas binos on Eagle optics and they look exactly like my Zen ED's, even with the same focus knob and same color of focus knob.

So what is the deal? Are they all from the same factory? Are all the factories located in a central area and they share suppliers? As big as China is, they can only produce one manufacturer of above average binoculars?

This has already been answered on another thread.

Search around for other times this has happened e.g.

The Swift 8.5x44 and the Vixen Foresta 8x42 and EO Raptor 8x42 all looked very similar. Almost identical. All made in Japan. Lots of arguments about them being the same bin. They all used the same enclosure. The latter two were the same bin but the Swift had a different EP design (and perhaps objective design and maybe other bits too) and different eyecups (which weren't a good move).

Same with the Leupold Cascades, Opticron HR WP and the Minox internal focus porro. All use the same enclosure. The former two are the same (as far as we can tell) but Minox say the latter one wasn't. Different optics. Different coatings. Minox design. Same enclosure.

The problem is you end up confusing the enclosure with the contents of the bin.

There are plenty of parts makers in this business and the share components. Some of the bins you see could be from the same OEM (but my Promaster knob is different from the other common knobs ... so maybe there is more than one Promaster Chinese ED too!).

There are lots of Chinese optical factories in multiple cities (some were searching will show you where the main centers are e.g. Guangdong , Suzhou, Kunming. These are big cities and often have multiple optical firms (sometimes with groups operating under a single exporting company). These are just the ones that spring to mind ... there are plenty of others.

Even then there are different companies making the glass, finishing the glass and so on. You might get 40 subcontractors providing bits for a binocular (from raw glass to the case and microfiber cloth).

[Steve C]

I am probably going to be kicked off for saying this but for petes sakes Steve C what you said isn't worth 2 cents if you can't add anything positive to this thread, then keep it to yourself.


I surely hope you don't get kicked off. We each have opinions. Sorry you did not approve of mine. I am also sorry if you took offense, as none was intended.

Actually I agree with elkcub, and he said it pretty well.

I have in the past, and probably will in the future respond in some form or another to queries of the nature of "who made it?".

So, since the topic does come every so often, maybe it should be looked at. Perhaps you have the means to make sense of it all and can keep it on point. More power to you if you can. Somebody will have to keep track of what is what. It seems that these discussions get off point and go nowhere pretty quick. That seems mostly due to the fact that nobody seems to know for sure. Maybe this one won't.

[FrankD]

Sorry I don't have much to contribute to this thread. I would like to know this information though as well.

The one thing I can say is that Meopta makes all of their own products....optics, enclosures, assembly, etc... That is one of the reasons I have faith in their products.

I am aware that they are OEMs for other optics companies...at least some of their products. If memory serves me correctly they provide the optics and/or assembly for the Zeiss Conquest line of riflescopes.

[Kevin Purcell]

And of course Meopta does rebranding: Cabelas Euro bins.

Do they make their own glass? I would guess perhaps not but I have heard that they make glass for Zeiss (but that might just be another part of they make riflescopes for Zeiss as an OEM). I can imagine they certainly did soup to nuts in the olden (Peoples Republic) days but I wonder if that still where they're skill lies. But I can see the them doing all the other bits.

Making optical glass these days is a bit like making steel ... its pretty high energy and pretty far down the value chain (though making good optical glass still requires a fair amount of skill to get the right quality).

They're a company I suspect I may have to try at some point. But getting a "Deal" seems to be a bit of a challenge!

[ThoLa]

...but I have heard that they make glass for Zeiss ...

reference for this?

[Tero]

who makes what and for who?
That should be who makes what and for whom? ;)

Whom is the object form of who, and the object is used following any preposition, such as for. Like he turns into him.

Or read Grammar Girl
http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/who-versus-whom.aspx

[spyglass]

Well, shame on u Tero....injecting GRAMMAR lessons into our techno-thread!....

[the_handy_andy]

That should be who makes what and for whom? ;)

Whom is the object form of who, and the object is used following any preposition, such as for. Like he turn to him.

Or read Grammar Girl
http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/who-versus-whom.aspx

8-P

sorry for my earlier language.....I am having a bad time at the moment


anyway back to topic.....

From the Swift forum (thanks to Kevin Purcell)

Bosma appear to make

Swift Reliants
http://www.bosma.com.cn/en/productgn_info.asp?id=534
http://www.bosma.com.cn/en/productgn_info.asp?id=532

They also appear to make

Hawke Platinum and
Simmons Master Series
http://www.bosma.com.cn/en/productgn_info.asp?id=484

Opticron Oregon
http://www.bosma.com.cn/en/productgn_info.asp?id=475

Vortex Spitfire
http://www.bosma.com.cn/en/productgn_info.asp?id=490

Visionary 6x18 ultra-compact Binoculars
http://www.bosma.com.cn/en/productgn_info.asp?id=1108
http://www.bosma.com.cn/en/productgn_info.asp?id=598

Bresser Condor
http://www.bosma.com.cn/en/productgn_info.asp?id=480
.................................................. ...........................

From looking at their pictures
Bresser Luch = Viking Vistron

[FrankD]

They're a company I suspect I may have to try at some point. But getting a "Deal" seems to be a bit of a challenge!

Isn't that the truth. The two best deals I have seen on their bins were that $600 price at Cabelas bargain cave back in March for the 8x32s (it didn't last long...trust me) and a similar $600 price for the 7x42s from one of the discount houses a year or two ago. I forget which. The lowest price I have seen for a new bin from one of their retailers was through Euro Optics a year or two ago.

It was my understanding Kevin that they did make their own glass as well. I will have to check into that further.

[the_handy_andy]

so Meopta = Cabela Euro

(from the pics that is)

[Steve C]

so Meopta = Cabela Euro

(from the pics that is)

That does seem to be one thing that has been verified in many places. So, that is probably a valid conclusion. Cabela's has less price, because the Warranty is Cabela's and not Meopta's.

[the_handy_andy]

I am not going to be a rigorous in this post as I've had a drink....or 2. BUT.....

I googled Jaxy Optical Instrument Co. Ltd and they only seem to do an 8x42 and a 10x42 roof prisim bin.....loads of compacts and porros

http://www.jaxy-binoculars.com/english/eProductsearch.asp?id=38
they have to make bins for someone.....if you recognise anything put a post here

I also googled Chongqing Dontop Optics Co. Ltd.
crap site as the link for binoculars doesn't work so I had to go a page at a time (33 pages), they make loads of porros and compacts these look a bit like Steiners
http://www.dontop.com/en/ProductView.asp?ID=561&SortID=385
and these look like Viking vistrons
http://www.dontop.com/en/ProductView.asp?ID=548&SortID=384
there are a few roof prisms........

shit....got to page 21....................

sorry I have to get this off my chest

OH FOR FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUCKS SAKE........these

http://www.dontop.com/en/ProductView.asp?ID=280&SortID=384

look like

Hawke Platinum and
Simmons Master Series
http://www.bosma.com.cn/en/productgn_info.asp?id=484

I feel like I am banging my head against a brick wall here.......


So what we need to do is find out who is doing the designing. Which companies they are selling their design to. And what brand is sourcing from which company. Great!!!!

The phrase needle in a haystack springs to mind.....its so much simpler with digicams....


Can I shout? I am going to shout anyway!!!!!

WHY SO MANY ******* BRANDS ok its good for competition but its shit for making an informed choice on what to go for, where there is a lack of try before you buy so you have to go with what other people say


GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

[the_handy_andy]

These look like Konus Titanium

http://www.dontop.com/en/ProductView.asp?ID=271&SortID=384

[the_handy_andy]

Dont go beyond page 25 on the Chongqing Dontop Optics Co. Ltd. site as there are no more bins

[CLRobles]

Slow down Andy, or have another drink! We don't want you having a aneurysm on our account! JK Keep up the good work.......

[Kevin Purcell]

All the optical companies do some of their own design (ODMs). Or they'll take a customers design and fabricate it (OEMs). How much of the former and the latter varies with the companies they are working for.

And my linking of bins to OEMs is based on both looks and specs. Looks alone are not enough. And we've seen with similar specs and the same look may or may note come from the same OEM.

BTW, Andy, you can use the Edit button to update comments on a post (some forums enforce it but this one doesn't) rather than posting a new one (especially a one liner).

[the_handy_andy]

Bresser Condor
http://www.bosma.com.cn/en/productgn_info.asp?id=480

These look like Zen-Ray Vistas

[FrankD]

Umm, I don't know. Teh barrels look too long and in a slightly different shape compared to the Vistas...at least in the picture comparison.