Buying Chinese products (binoculars) yes or no

[kristoffer]

Let´s sort this out, it´s between the lines in all the Zen threads. We are allowed to discuss this, no?

So, should we support the totalitarian state of China by giving it our hard earned cash when we buy or new binoculars.

Pros:

It´s very very cheap.

Is really the other productions countries much better? And what countries are they.

Most of the other stuff without giving it a second thought comes from China. It´s probably impossible to avoid buying products made in China.
Maybe we should apply this moral guideline to all stuff we buy, not just the one big expensive but also the stuff we buy each day. Cant be done though?


Cons:

We support a totalitarian communist state.

Perhaps we take away a job here and give it to someone in China. Good or bad?

[iveljay]

What proportion of all binoculars sold are not made in China? Very few I suspect. The main difference is that it is now more obvious?

[kristoffer]

What proportion of all binoculars sold are not made in China?

Yeah, where are the bins made?
My Nikon Monarch 8x42 is made in China. My Vortex Viper 8x42 is made in Japan. My Leica 8x20 trinovid is "Made by Leica Portugal". Most Zeiss is made in east Europe, right? My Swarovski scope is made in Austria I guess, couldn't find any tag on it. Perhaps under the eyepiece.

And further on, where are the parts made that makes up the bin? The glass and metal, rubber etc. And where is that material mined or extracted.

[Sancho]

It´s a topic that will never die. But we can extend it. Where do the diamonds used to ground our glass in all optics come from? The Congo? Sierra Leone? Under what conditions are they mined and traded?

As consumers, we wanted cheaper products. We got them.
As workers, we wanted better protection and conditions. We got them.

The price was, our products are now made outside our economies under conditions which cause us crises of conscience, and we worry about jobs being lost to low-cost economies.

I wouldn´t worry too much about conditions in China. They know exactly what they are doing and the new economic world order will be focussed around China, India and Russia. Europe and North America are in decline.

Meanwhile, if you live in Europe or North America, and remove from your residence all products made or assembled in China, or containing components from China, there will be very little left. Probably not even clothes.

So we got the cheap products and the labour laws. As the Chinese say, "May you get what you wish for". Interesting times, indeed.

[Kevin Conville]

Kristoffer- Your con list is incomplete, to say the least.

Skipping all the political and social aspects of this topic, and staying focused on binoculars (and birds) and not everything else in the world, there is a practical side to supporting high end field optics from the viewpoint of a birder.

If all the makers got out of making high end innovative bins and such and left it to the Chinese, what kind of products do you think we'll end up with? Besides not having a model to steal from, they won't be making bins to challenge their engineering skills, uphold a tradition, pride in offering birders the finest products made, or support nature and birding organizations. Without a touchstone (Euro and Japanese), the Chinese will give no more than they have to to garner as many sales as possible, making them no better than minimally necessary, while building them as cheaply as possible. That touchstone, I would argue, keeps them more "honest".

And, I'm sure birds (and all critters) are finding it much harder to make a living in China these days.

[Bob A (SD)]

My view is that there are two operative issues:

(1) personal rejection of a particular country's politics / philosophies by boycotting their goods

(2) continued loss of US manufacturing to other countries

There comes a time when one has to choose between being able to acquire a particular product, or protesting and doing without.

For example, I know of no one producing a high quality, lightweight, midsized 7x roof binocular like the Zen Ray ED2 7x36 other than China. (I believe that the Vortex Diamondback and Swift Eaglet are Chinese as well.)

I've pre-ordered the Zen Ray 7x36. That said note that I have bins from a wide variety of manufacturers and sources including an "Alpha".

[elkcub]

... So, should we support the totalitarian state of China by giving it our hard earned cash when we buy our new binoculars.

Short of an economic boycott, all we can do is buy on an educated basis and let the chips fall where they may.

During the next century Chinese workers may organize and transform their country into a capitalistic state dominated by international corporations who export their jobs to a peaceful, post-capitalist agrarian Europe and US.

Just wanted to be somewhat forward looking and optimistic. I have the urge to hug a tree. :-O

Ed

[Tero]

I have only Chinese and Japanese, so mine are all Asian. ;)

I don't need no stinking euro-optics.

[Kevin Conville]

During the next century Chinese workers may organize and transform their country into a capitalistic state dominated by international corporations who export their jobs to a peaceful, post-capitalist agrarian Europe and US.


True. Then again, a world pandemic or a comet may come along and REALLY shuffle the deck. Ultimately it's all but a finger in the dike.

[Sancho]

the Chinese will give no more than they have to to garner as many sales as possible, making them no better than minimally necessary, while building them as cheaply as possible. That touchstone, I would argue, keeps them more "honest".


Indeed. That touchstone makes them perfect Capitalists too. Create Markets, Produce Cheaply, Maximise Revenue.....they may be totalitarian, but they sure as heck ain´t Communist....;) (And I should know...I used to think I was one...until I went to work in China....;))

[fugl]

It's just about impossible to live by a logically & morally consistent policy vis-a-vis imports of goods from countries one dislikes (or goods which are simply manufactured under conditions one disapproves of). In fact, it's difficult enough to even to formulate such a policy. So, what I do, is avoid such goods whenever it's reasonably convenient to do so, & not worry about it when it isn't. A much under-appreciated virtue of modern "open" economies is the freedom they accord to the consumer to boycott particular products on whatever basis--however stupid, self-defeating, mean-spirited or xenophobic (or rational or socially responsible)--he chooses.

[Steve C]

For example, I know of no one producing a high quality, lightweight, midsized 7x roof binocular like the Zen Ray ED2 7x36 other than China. (I believe that the Vortex Diamondback and Swift Eaglet are Chinese as well.)

I've pre-ordered the Zen Ray 7x36. That said note that I have bins from a wide variety of manufacturers and sources including an "Alpha".

The Eaglet is, for now anyway, Japanese. FWIW, Zen Ray tried initially to get where they wanted to go by using Japanese Optics resources. They didn't want to get into the cheap Chinese junk arguments to begin with. Dealing with Japan proved impossible and they had to go to China.

Now that Zen Ray has broken the path, look for 7x and 9x36 of the ZEN ED 2 to show up from Atlas, Hawke, or Promaster. If the quality 7x36 goes, maybe the euros will have to copy the quality 7x binocular concept. ;)

While I am no admirer of the Chinese political system, neither am I arrogant enough to assume they are only capable of "copying existing intellectual property". Has that happened, sure. Will it happen again, yes it will. Is it restricted to China...I think not.

Besides if the Mayans and Nostradamus are right, this will all be moot on Dec 21, 2012 anyway.

[Sancho]

While I am no admirer of the Chinese political system, neither am I arrogant enough to assume they are only capable of "copying existing intellectual property".


Of course! Anyway, we "borrowed" some of their intellectual property...like paper, ink, silk, and that rather cool fireworks stuff, gunpowder. Which we Europeans, of course, put to other, less entertaining uses....;)

And then we came up with the even neater trick of divesting them of their products, while paying their workers with...Opium from India!!! And when they protested, hey, we just declared War on them!!! Twice!!! Honestly, I don´t think the guys who produce Zen-Rays have anything to apologise to the "West" for......

[dustyview]

Some good points brought up, here, and it's worthwhile noting that the transformation that China's political system is currently undergoing came about precisely because the West provided a huge market for their products, creating a wealthy producing and exporting class that, despite largely being made up of the children of communist party authorities, has begun to wield their own power in the pursuit of a more market-oriented philosophy.

One thing I notice in all of these morality-based discussions on Chinese optics is how the relatively recent sins of the Germans and Japanese are conveniently overlooked. 70 yrs. ago, a drop in the bucket of human history, those two countries led aggressions that left 70 million dead. The Chinese (also victimized by the Japanese) don't even rate in comparison. Leitz (which would become Leica) and Zeiss both made optics and photographic equipment for the Nazis.

[Sancho]

One thing I notice in all of these morality-based discussions on Chinese optics is how the relatively recent sins of the Germans and Japanese are conveniently overlooked. 70 yrs. ago, a drop in the bucket of human history, those two countries led aggressions that left 70 million dead. The Chinese (also victimized by the Japanese) don't even rate in comparison.
:clap: Good point. No offence intended to any nation/ethnic group/language community, but I think we all live in glass houses and stone-throwing is probably not a healthy pursuit.

Meanwhile, I can´t wait to get my Zen-Ray7x36, produced in China, by Chinese, in response to requests on BF for just such a configuration. I´ve also bought binos etc. from Austria, Germany, Japan, and the U.S. So no World Imperialist Order need feel left out....;)

[fugl]

Of course! Anyway, we "borrowed" some of their intellectual property...like paper, ink, silk, and that rather cool fireworks stuff, gunpowder. Which we Europeans, of course, put to other, less entertaining uses....;)......

Yes, but what have they done for us lately (other than lend us a lot of money)?

And then we came up with the even neater trick of divesting them of their products, while paying their workers with...Opium from India!!! And when they protested, hey, we just declared War on them!!! Twice!!! Honestly, I don´t think the guys who produce Zen-Rays have anything to apologise to the "West" for......

But that was a good few years ago, wasn't it? By all means, dissolve in guilt for past sins if it pleases you, but it seems to me that it's still perfectly legitimate for "westerners" to object to present day conditions in China regardless of how badly their "ancestors" may have behaved.

[Nova88]

I don't really care where they come from as long as they work and i can see what i want to see. in my 15 years birding i have owned binoculars from at least 8 countries.

i'm not getting involved in the politics of it i just love birding and right now i do still own a pair of binoculars from china and i happen to love them :)

[Kevin Conville]

One thing I notice in all of these morality-based discussions on Chinese optics is how the relatively recent sins of the Germans and Japanese are conveniently overlooked. 70 yrs. ago, a drop in the bucket of human history, those two countries led aggressions that left 70 million dead. The Chinese (also victimized by the Japanese) don't even rate in comparison. Leitz (which would become Leica) and Zeiss both made optics and photographic equipment for the Nazis.

Good points, but this is why I tried to keep the focus on bins and birding and if it's ultimately in our favor if S,Z,and L go under.

Bringing up Germany and Japan and WWII is fine and valid, but that was then and this is now. The Uihgers, Tibetans, others in the western provinces, countless political prisoners, human rights advocates, environmentalists, and so on may not like the Chinese gvt much though. Regarding Leitz' and Zeiss' involvement with the nazis, I don't know. Making optics for the nazis may be overstated as not all German companies were sympathetic to them unlike, for instance Bayer, which manufactured gas used in the concentration camps. That might be a little like blaming GM for being complicit in the invasion of Iraq because humvees were used.

[Sancho]

But that was a good few years ago, wasn't it? By all means, dissolve in guilt for past sins if it pleases you, but it seems to me that it's still perfectly legitimate for "westerners" to object to present day conditions in China regardless of how badly their "ancestors" may have behaved.
Hmmm. Good point. (I hate when someone stops me when I´m on a roll...;))
I suppose what I was clumsily trying to say was that human innovation is more than simply "intellectual property"....something gets invented, modified, copied, put to alternative uses, produced elsewhere, etc. etc. But meanwhile I´d wager that the workers producing Zen-Rays and Hawkes are considerably better treated than those producing the Chinese-made baby-clothes with which the "West" is swamped. The morals and politics of consumerism are a minefield...... and the bottom line from where I live is, if we don´t import, we return to the middle ages. Even the Spanish fruit I buy here (in Northern Europe) is produced by migrant "illegal" labour working under conditions that would shock most of us.

[dalat]

When talking about Leitz, Zeiss and the Nazis, don't forget Swarovski ;)

As mentioned in other posts, the whole thing is way too complicated for that one can seriously base buying decisions on political or moral reasons. If you buy Zeiss, your money goes to shareholders of whom you have no idea who they are and if you like them, maybe some are even Chinese. If you buy a Zen-ray, probably half your money goes to Zen-ray, a US-company. The Chinese optics company probably buys it's production machines from Germany....
Just get's you headache. Tough enough to find out which is the best bin for yourself, better concentrate on that.

Of couse brand image plays a major role in buying decisions. But I think that's a largely emotional thing, which we don't like to admit to ourselves, that's why we come up with a whole lot of political or moral justifications.

[kristoffer]

Really good point, ownership is a very important factor in this discussion.


If you buy Zeiss, your money goes to shareholders of whom you have no idea who they are and if you like them, maybe some are even Chinese. If you buy a Zen-ray, probably half your money goes to Zen-ray, a US-company. The Chinese optics company probably buys it's production machines from Germany....

[ThoLa]

If you buy Zeiss, your money goes to shareholders of whom you have no idea who they are and if you like them, maybe some are even Chinese.

no. Zeiss is a private foundation set up by Carl Zeiss and Ernst Abbe about a hundred years from now. There are no shares in the public domain anyone can buy.


The Chinese optics company probably buys it's production machines from Germany....
probably buys
probably?
Buys??
o:):-Oo:):-O3:-)

[dalat]

Well, that was just an example to say it's complicated if you want to dig into a companies history and ownership structure every time you want to buy a binocular. But actually it isn't, just need to ask Thola ;) Now you just need to tell us who eventually gets our money in this private foundation and what they're doing with it and if we should be happy about it or not...

[mooreorless]

no. Zeiss is a private foundation set up by Carl Zeiss and Ernst Abbe about a hundred years from now. There are no shares in the public domain anyone can buy.



probably buys
probably?
Buys??
o:):-Oo:):-O3:-)

This is early in the morning for me, so does this mean that the Chinese don't buy the machines?;) I take it as that.
My father worked at GM plant in Baltimore,Md. USA and after World War II there were people from an Island nation going through his plant taken pictures,writing notes etc. and they ended up selling vehicles later that were better than what GM etc. were selling. I know this as fact. At the time I think we were just trying to help these people rebuild.
Regards,Steve

[ThoLa]

....My father worked at GM plant in Baltimore,Md. USA and after World War II there were people from an Island nation going through his plant taken pictures,writing notes etc. and they ended up selling vehicles later that were better than what GM etc. were selling. I know this as fact. At the time I think we were just trying to help these people rebuild.
Regards,Steve

- http://www.businessweek.com/autos/autobeat/archives/2007/08/chinese_copy_bm.html

- http://curiousphotos.blogspot.com/2008/01/chinese-can-copy-anything.html

[ThoLa]

Well, that was just an example to say it's complicated if you want to dig into a companies history and ownership structure every time you want to buy a binocular. But actually it isn't, just need to ask Thola


Always happy to assist someone who is totally helpless and not able to push a button to retrieve actual information from a website:

http://www.zeiss.de/C12567A100537AB9/Contents-Frame/17167234C76E5BBA41256A78004D7636

[Sancho]

In any case, whether or not "western" birders buy Chinese-made optics is only peanuts. The two major "eastern" economies already own the U.S., so it would be wise not to disappoint them.....;)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2009/mar/13/useconomy-china

[mooreorless]

Thanks for the links.:eek!: I think!;)
Regards,Steve

- http://www.businessweek.com/autos/autobeat/archives/2007/08/chinese_copy_bm.html

- http://curiousphotos.blogspot.com/2008/01/chinese-can-copy-anything.html

[ThoLa]

In any case, whether or not "western" birders buy Chinese-made optics is only peanuts. The two major "eastern" economies already own the U.S., so it would be wise not to disappoint them.....;)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2009/mar/13/useconomy-china

Newsflash:
"All-american President Singh and Vice-president Wang left Washington DC (provincial capital of the western-most province of the People's Republic of Globalia) this morning for their first visit of the Empire's poverty-stricken european badlands. Their tour will take them from Lowdown at the Sewer Thames to Slumsterdam and then to Plague, before they head off to the World's Captial, New Delhight."

[Sancho]

LOL!

Meanwhile, if anyone wants to buy Ireland, you´d get it really cheap now. With some really dodgy banks thrown in for free.

[CLRobles]

I personally am not happy about conditions in China's labor pool but I feel that they (the Chinese worker) has to step up and sort it out! And I think in time they will.... So I'll stay out of the political debate side of this....
But on a purely optics stand point, well that is another thing. China is only making what the market will demand.. Right now the market is demanding a top level "alpha quality bin" at a lower price point to the consumer. If as stated in another thread, The alphas decide at some point not to produce sport optics anymore and move there production to other lines that they have where does that leave us? I strongly believe that the Optical renaissance that we have seen over the past twenty years will come to an end! There will be no more of the competition that comes from storied optical firms with uber pride involved... Instead we will be left with Chinese firms that only worry about sales and margins. They will have reached their goal of obtaining a bin that performs close to the alphas at a third of there price but with poorer craftsmanship and marginal service.... Sound like Walmart to anyone here? I'm not against Wally world but I prefer not to buy my optics like that....
So one has to justify to then selves which path they want the optics world to be lead down. Be careful because its a slippery slope when you demand everything for a lower price point and everything else be damnd! I for one am willing to pay the price for continued development and quality, however I am finding the recent 50% to 300% price increases by the alphas troubling, especially in the economic times in which we live..... I think a little consumer consciousness on there part would be prudent!

[kristoffer]

Well, the manager of zen is an American and not "China" afaik ;)


But on a purely optics stand point, well that is another thing. China is only making what the market will demand..

[CLRobles]

And so are the owners of Walmart and as I said I don't choose to buy my optics that way!

[kristoffer]

And I love the idea that a company listens to what we want instead of making what they want.

[andrej 4153]

Maybe it is important to have people with passion for binos to let companys have a passion to create always better binos ?!

[SPARTACVS]

Very good question. Actually it's hard to avoid chinese products. But their government is really bad. I think political pressure is more efficient. Plus, zen-ray seems a good business. It would be sad to put them aside because of their government. Hell, maybe the head office don't particularly like their government, who know.

One thing I don't believe is "when the economy goes well, everything goes well". Social and political structure of a country are not necessarily linked. Also, peoples who say they don't do politics and so on, that is just an excuse. This is not politics, it's human rights. Just watch a few reports of what they are doing to the tibetans. They are literally killing them and in big numbers. As much as I care for birds and nature, it would be extremely egocentric to not care. And do little is better than nothing. FREE TIBET.

[Kevin Conville]

Also, peoples who say they don't do politics and so on, that is just an excuse. This is not politics, it's human rights.

Right on. Life is political.

[CLRobles]

And I love the idea that a company listens to what we want instead of making what they want.

Hmm, not quite sure what you mean here but a company absolutely listens to what we want.... Its called sales! If a group of consumers does not want or like a product they don't buy it and the company takes a loss... No company likes losses and enough losses there will be no more company! Therefore companies and the buyers for companies are keenly in tune with market trends and demand the manufacture of products they believe their consumer will buy!

[kristoffer]

Hmm, not quite sure what you mean here but a company absolutely listens to what we want.... Its called sales! If a group of consumers does not want or like a product they don't buy it and the company takes a loss... No company likes losses and enough losses there will be no more company! Therefore companies and the buyers for companies are keenly in tune with market trends and demand the manufacture of products they believe their consumer will buy!

Sure, but Zen asked what we wanted and gave it to us.

It´s a bit faster and more efficient then to evaluate sales after 3 years and then let a marketing team figure out what we might want.

[CLRobles]

Sure, but Zen asked what we wanted and gave it to us.

It´s a bit faster and more efficient then to evaluate sales after 3 years and then let a marketing team figure out what we might want. Zen buyers already knew the market trend was going in and took advantage of it! It is very good business! But as I said be careful in what you ask for... If cheap is the only criteria then you got it... but if continued R&D and service is the goal, well then I think you are missing the point!

[andrej 4153]

ClRobles.I agree.
But if zen is selling a lot, the other companys have to think more about their strategy.

[CLRobles]

ClRobles.I agree.
But if zen is selling a lot, the other companys have to think more about their strategy.
No doubt, as I said I find the massive price increases troubling and wish more care on the alphas part was being taken during these economic times... I think if a small price decrease was put in order instead of these increases more would think of investing in their products..... But maybe I'm wrong and the alphas know what their doing but it befuddles me?

[Kevin Conville]

Zen buyers already knew the market trend was going in and took advantage of it! It is very good business! But as I said be careful in what you ask for... If cheap is the only criteria then you got it... but if continued R&D and service is the goal, well then I think you are missing the point!

To be fair, it does seem that Zen's bringing out the 7x36 and 9x36 models soon is in response to Steve C's efforts here on BF and being in communication with Zen. I'm sure that's what Kristoffer is referring to, please correct me if I'm wrong.

I wonder though, when I think of these Chinese start-ups, about the following scenario. Image a few years down the road and the focus axle (or something) on say, Zens, start to break because they're made of pot cheese or some such and an explosion of warranty claims ensue. How long do you think Zen will stay in business or resurrect as Siddhartha Optics dodging liability?

You could start an "optics" company tomorrow pretty easily, and probably pretty cheaply. Take out a fictitious name, fly to China and get them to sell you what they make for everyone else (with your logo on it), set up a website, take out some ads, give a few to magazines and enthusiasts on sites like BF and 24 Hour Campfire, and voila! Lucky Lotus Optics is born.
If things go south, move to the Bahamas.

[CLRobles]

To be fair, it does seem that Zen's bringing out the 7x36 and 9x36 models soon is in response to Steve C's efforts here on BF and being in communication with Zen. I'm sure that's what Kristoffer is referring to, please correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm sure your right kevin but the problem is that ZR wants to do what every business wants to do.... Grow the business! Right now ZR is what I would classify as a "Boutique" business. The only way for ZR to grow is to sell to the masses.... The masses want 8x42 and 10x42 bins. So the challenge for ZR was not in seeing what the market conditions are now but what they will be in 3 to 5 years.... Buy to many 7x36 and sink the ZR ship... Do you see what I'm saying. And if ZR does their homework and do survive they will help to change the landscape of the industry, which I don't think is a healthy change and an end of optical innovation in the name of low price point bins!

[kristoffer]

To be fair, it does seem that Zen's bringing out the 7x36 and 9x36 models soon is in response to Steve C's efforts here on BF and being in communication with Zen. I'm sure that's what Kristoffer is referring to, please correct me if I'm wrong.


Yes, you are right.

[Sancho]

.........No company likes losses and enough losses there will be no more company! Therefore companies and the buyers for companies are keenly in tune with market trends and demand the manufacture of products they believe their consumer will buy!

This is excellent in classical economic theory, but rings a little hollow given what´s happened worldwide in the last couple of years. At the centre of all production and distribution is the financial sector....obviously something is really, really rotten with the entire system and I´m at a loss to explain, for example, the massive price rises you correctly bemoan by the "alphas". They don´t make any economic sense, but nothing does lately. (Like rotten banks staying in business at our expense).

And of course economics/politics is everything, the aggregate of our individual consumer choices determines what happens worldwide. I´m simply not convinced that criticising the optics producers of one country, based on the human rights (or workers´rights) issues in that country, is valid. Firstly, capitalism worldwide was founded on slavery, war and imperialism, even if it led to "liberal democracy" for the élites of the planet. It must make the Chinese laugh wryly to be criticised by those of us who founded and protected our systems (and our alpha companies in all sectors) on the most abominable human rights abuses in history. Secondly, if it is justified to boycott Chinese goods on political/human rights grounds, why is it not justified to also boycott European or U.S. goods on exactly the same kinds of issues? And I´m not talking about historical abuses here, I´m talking about right now, current practice worldwide....for example, and without spelling it out, folks, have a look at the worldwide human rights consequences of the so-called "War(s) on Terror".

There. I´ve nailed my flag to the mast now so if you don´t hear from me, I´ve been "rendered". Extraordinarily.;)

[CLRobles]

This is excellent in classical economic theory, but rings a little hollow given what´s happened worldwide in the last couple of years. At the centre of all production and distribution is the financial sector....obviously something is really, really rotten with the entire system and I´m at a loss to explain, for example, the massive price rises you correctly bemoan by the "alphas". They don´t make any economic sense, but nothing does lately.
Not really Sancho.... They still apply. Yes the banking industry and greed has collapsed many good businesses but the strong who still practice good buying and treat their customers correctly will thrive. I am a senior mgr for the worlds 6th largest retailer and through all this upheaval we have still shown growth in merchandise sales. One of only several companies who have.... Can you guess my company?

[fugl]

Getting a little off-topic here I realize, but, out of curiosity, what is known about the Zen-Ray Optics Company other than it's Oregon based & imports all or most of its stock from China? When was it founded? Who owns it? What are the value of its sales? How successful is it vis-a-vis the competition? How much (if any) design imput does it have in the stuff it sells.

As I said, just curious. I have all the optical gear I "need" (ha ha) at the moment & am not in the market for any more

[Sancho]

.............I am a senior mgr for the worlds 6th largest retailer and through all this upheaval we have still shown growth in merchandise sales. One of only several companies who have.... Can you guess my company?
No, and I´m not going to cheat by googling "sixth largest retailer"...go on, tell us!!! but it´s great to hear that someone´s doing well in the current climate, CL, congratulations!B (:

Edit: I cheated. I googled for "World´s Sixth Largest Retailer", and ironically, I got this:
http://news.alibaba.com/article/detail/business-in-china/100090262-1-china-becomes-world%2527s-6th-largest.html

[CLRobles]

No, and I´m not going to cheat by googling "sixth largest retailer"...go on, tell us!!! but it´s great to hear that someone´s doing well in the current climate, CL, congratulations!B (:

Edit: I cheated. I googled for "World´s Sixth Largest Retailer", and ironically, I got this:
http://news.alibaba.com/article/detail/business-in-china/100090262-1-china-becomes-world%2527s-6th-largest.html
hahaha that's funny! I work for Costco and no we don't have warehouses in China main land though we do in Taiwan. Costco works tirelessly to bring the "highest quality" merchandise for the best price possible and yes we do have a lot of stuff from china. But our optics are mostly Steiner. Enough of the pitch but just trying to re-enforce the position that there are only two roads we as optic enthusiast can follow.... One is the pursuit of optical excellence and the other is the pursuit of lower cost bins...

fyi - all the retail studies on google are years old and show Costco as #9. We have grown in both size and sales and now own the #6 spot. By the way we do an incredible amount of charity work and do more for our employees in the form of salaries and benefits than any other retailer on the planet!

[Steve C]

I suppose this all makes interesting discussion, and I admit I find it educational... on many levels.

It seems to me that those, including me, who were in position to offer reviews of this class of Chinese ED binoculars, certainly compared them to the alpha in terms of image quality, but, I for one never did and do not now, take the position that these are the absolute equal of the alpha class glass. What they are is far, far closer to the alpha class than anything else in the mid price range. The fact is the step up from the mid price glass to the alpha since Pentax phase corrected the DCF WP has been reduced a bunch. These have reduced it more.

When I get to an A-B comparison of any of the alphas and either my ZEN ED or Promaster, or the Atlas Intrepid I reviewed, yes there are certain attributes of the alphas that are better than the ZEN class glass. But not every alpha beats the ZEN in every facet.

I submit that firms like Vortex may suffer more problems from these than the alphas will. Here, as an example, for about the price of a Fury, is a binocular that bests the Fury, the Viper, and the Razor. It may not beat the Razor image much, but for half the price, well... I think the upheaval that these might cause is in the mid price range, not the alpha range and that the dropping prices and increasing quality will come below $1,000 rather than above it.

I really hope the alpha class producers do not go out of business. I will never feel that the extortionist prices for one of their instruments is justified, so they realistically never had much chance to make anything from me. I think if they do quit binoculars, it will be because they finally reached the limit of how much money people are willing to spend.

[CLRobles]

Well Toyota and Lexus have not put Mercedes and BMW out of business and they do make cars that rival their Bavarian and German counterparts.... But there are many more luxury car enthusiasts than there are high end bin collectors....

[Kevin Conville]

Not a good analogy, CL.

Lexus have pretty much reached price parody with the Germans -and- the biggest threat to MB is MB. In 2007 the Consumer Reports Annual Auto Survey (nearly 1 million respondents) ranked MB as THE MOST unreliable car made, by a wide margin. BMW was about middle of the pack, and Lexus was #1 or 2 best, as I recall.
For the sake of full disclosure, MB did rise to second to last in 2008, ahead of I believe, Range Rover.

[CLRobles]

well I can tell you that consumer reports is about as reliable as Yugo! I don't believe anything they say..... They lost credibility years ago but thats another thread... You can see my point even if one believes the analogy has miss the target.

[Sancho]

.....By the way we do an incredible amount of charity work and do more for our employees in the form of salaries and benefits than any other retailer on the planet!
Excellent. And you sell Steiner bins too....I´ll be first in the queue when you open here!!!

[Kevin Conville]

Without belaboring the point CL, you might be missing the point. This isn't a CR review or shootout, it is the annual survey of car owners.

For your point to be usable in the context of this thread the pricing of Chin Bins and German/Austrian bins would have to be similar.

But I agree, that really is another thread.

[CLRobles]

Im not missing the point I understand..... And dont want to bicker just want to point out what the loss of the big four will mean for our hobby...

[kristoffer]

I enjoy reading your posts Sancho, I tend to agree and agree and wish I wrote it first ;)

[kristoffer]

How did suddenly Japan enter this thread? I had no idea that anyone had problems buying Kowa, Kamakura or Nikon.

Well Toyota and Lexus have not put Mercedes and BMW out of business and they do make cars that rival their Bavarian and German counterparts.... But there are many more luxury car enthusiasts than there are high end bin collectors....

[CLRobles]

your over thinking this Kristoffer... Its a simple market analogy... And I dont have anything against China either but they will not drive innovation the Japan and Europe does in the optical field!

[dalat]

I myself have never bought any product because I wanted to support a companies innovation. I have already bought a product because I thought it's the best available.

Regarding the car-analogy: yes there are so many funny copies of Mercedes and others now. But are those a threat to Mercedes, BMW etc.? No, they aren't. Nobody in western countries will buy such things. And in China, those who can afford buy of course the real Mercedes, not the fake one. China is an very important market for Merceds, BMW, Porsche etc. And it will be, as long as those companies manage to build the best cars and keep their luxury-image (where image is even more important than making the best, see post 53).

Binoculars are not as good as a status symbols as a car. But if birding ever should emerge as a market in China, I am sure Zeiss, Leica and Swarovski would do good sales there, as long as they keep making the best binoculars.

Florian

[CLRobles]

I myself have never bought any product because I wanted to support a companies innovation. I have already bought a product because I thought it's the best available. But you are making my point here..... Without innovation there is no best product! Only best available! So do you want want the best to keep being innovative and pushing the optical envelope or do you do you want to settle for where we are at now at a lower price and lower quality?

[dustyview]

your over thinking this Kristoffer... Its a simple market analogy... And I dont have anything against China either but they will not drive innovation the Japan and Europe does in the optical field!

I think we'll see more original R&D and less copying from China in the future.

[CLRobles]

I think we'll see more original R&D and less copying from China in the future.
I truly hope so dusty but at the price point that we are at with the likes of ZR and Vortex and such I don't think so.... Original R&D means a huge investment in engineering and retooling and that means increased prices! Then the luster falls off the product? would you be willing to $1200 for a new ZR HD2? Especially when you can find EDG's, EL's, FL's, and ultravids for close to this? I know I wouldn't and it has nothing to do with anything but quality and the history of service provided by the top four...

[dalat]

Without innovation there is no best product!

I'm with you here. I guess that's the chance also for the future of companies like Leica, Swaro, Zeiss, Mercedes, etc. Being a step ahead in R+D and preserving the century old reputation by assuring excellent build quality and service. There will always be enough who are willing to pay good money to get the best available (me it's only for one binocular, for all the rest of the stuff I own I actually prefer sth. that is cheap and does the job).

[dalat]

Original R&D means a huge investment in engineering and retooling and that means increased prices!

I am sure Chinese optics companies will soon be able to have the same R+D as other companies. The question is if they really want to do the required efforts (see quote). And if they do, we'll likely have a situation like Lexus vs. Mercedes. A chinese bin that is technically equal or better than a Leica or Zeiss, but that looks duller and that will never get the same brand-image within the next century or so...

[CLRobles]

I am sure Chinese optics companies will soon be able to have the same R+D as other companies. They question is if they really want to do the required efforts (see quote). And if they do, we'll likely have a situation like Lexus vs. Mercedes. A chinese bin that is technically equal or better than a Leica or Zeiss, but that looks duller and that will never get the same brand-image within the next century or so...
And like Lexus at a increased price...

[ThoLa]

I think we'll see more original R&D and less copying from China in the future.

or maybe we won't.
at least as long as it is cheaper and easier to steal someone else's know-how:

http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/0,1518,512914,00.html

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,465041,00.html

http://www.welt.de/webwelt/article4162853/Trojaner-aus-China-bedrohen-deutsche-Stromnetze.html

http://www.n-tv.de/wirtschaft/meldungen/Warnung-vor-Spionage-aus-China-article238522.html

it's all fine and well to have competition in the economic world. it may lead to innovation and better and cheaper products.

but the (underlying) problem(s) with certain low-wage countries - and one in particular - is very different than the normal competition among manufacturers for customers' attention and money.

[ThoLa]

....that rival their Bavarian and German counterparts....

Bavarian & German :t:;)
I like that one. I really do. o:D

[kristoffer]

Why does everyone discuss if China steals innovations or not? It is an American company for all I know and does not seem more Chinese then Nikons monarch series. If the hq is situated in USA it is American company, not Chinese. Would you react in the same way if any European or usa company borrowed/stole/took after some new design? And I am sure that has happened.

[Veracocha]

So, should we support the totalitarian state of China by giving it our hard earned cash when we buy or new binoculars.

If the binoculars produce a better image than the rest of the world then yes for me.

[chris butterworth]

I must admit that I find it kind of hypocritical for many people in the west to decry the, admittedly, horrendous record of China in the field of human rights. Does no one study history anymore ( or even watch the news! ). Or is this a " libetarian" pop at the political system in China, or even "sour grapes" because they've wholly embraced "free market economics" and are rather better at it than we are!!!!
Chris

[dustyview]

I think you're correct, CL, that there will be cost increases associated with R&D, and increased wages (high tech industry wages in China have already been increasing over the past decade, although they are still very low compared to the West), but I'm not sure about your numbers. The real numbers, of course, are anybody's guess, but at a 50% increase, binoculars like the ZRS and Zen ED would still be bargains, and at double their "street price" the Chinese EDs would still be 30-50% less than similar "alpha" glass.

[dustyview]

Good point, of course. Older companies like Leupold, Bushnell, Nikon and Minox are choosing to make binoculars in China, as are newer startups like Kruger, Vortex and Zen-Ray.

Why does everyone discuss if China steals innovations or not? It is an American company for all I know and does not seem more Chinese then Nikons monarch series. If the hq is situated in USA it is American company, not Chinese. Would you react in the same way if any European or usa company borrowed/stole/took after some new design? And I am sure that has happened.

[kristoffer]

I think we will have to remember that it takes quite a while to build up a good name. We here on bfs optic section are quite interested and are often willing to test out new products, but the average birder is perhaps a bit more conservative. I can´t remember when I saw a fellow birder with a bin from a brand other then S L or Z, I have never seen a vortex, stokes, or what all the good new brands are called. The only deviation if you could call it that is a younger guy who uses a Pentax. I have never even see anyone use a Nikon. So it will probably take some time before the conservative middleaged man will be as inclined to pick a Zen as a Zeiss. Atleast in Sweden, is it a conservative country perhaps?

I think you're correct, CL, that there will be cost increases associated with R&D, and increased wages (high tech industry wages in China have already been increasing over the past decade, although they are still very low compared to the West), but I'm not sure about your numbers. The real numbers, of course, are anybody's guess, but at a 50% increase, binoculars like the ZRS and Zen ED would still be bargains, and at double their "street price" the Chinese EDs would still be 30-50% less than similar "alpha" glass.

[SPARTACVS]

I must admit that I find it kind of hypocritical for many people in the west to decry the, admittedly, horrendous record of China in the field of human rights. Does no one study history anymore ( or even watch the news! ). Or is this a " libetarian" pop at the political system in China, or even "sour grapes" because they've wholly embraced "free market economics" and are rather better at it than we are!!!!
Chris

Read a little bit of what's going on in Tibet and you will see the difference... Nobody said "we are so much better than China so we are going to tell them what to do". No, and I critic my government as well. But letting peoples dies and saying, "oh, who are we to tell others what to do, we are not better than them", is definitively not a good idea. In fact, this is exactly what totalitarian government want: mind your own business (so we can continue to do what we want).

[fugl]

Getting a little off-topic here I realize, but, out of curiosity, what is known about the Zen-Ray Optics Company other than it's Oregon based & imports all or most of its stock from China? When was it founded? Who owns it? What are the value of its sales? How successful is it vis-a-vis the competition? How much (if any) design imput does it have in the stuff it sells.

Bump. [Just in case there's any interest in this small question now that the discussion of the future of the optical industry as a whole seems to be petering out . . .]

[dustyview]

There seems to have been a fair amount posted on this, plus ZR has a web page, and you can probably ask Charles this via email. He seems to be pretty forthcoming. I don't know that he's an engineer, but I recall that he simply thought by working with an overseas production company he could provide high quality binoculars that were more affordable than the "alphas". Whether he provided specific design elements or simply a list of features he wanted I don't know. Not that different from the Vortex story, really (a dentist left that profession to run a birding shop and got the idea that he could have good-quality binoculars produced overseas for a lot less than the "top" brands). I think the company supports the local birding community as well.

Bump. [Just in case there's any interest in this small question now that the discussion of the future of the optical industry as a whole seems to be petering out . . .]

[fugl]

There seems to have been a fair amount posted on this, plus ZR has a web page, and you can probably ask Charles this via email. He seems to be pretty forthcoming. I don't know that he's an engineer, but I recall that he simply thought by working with an overseas production company he could provide high quality binoculars that were more affordable than the "alphas". Whether he provided specific design elements or simply a list of features he wanted I don't know. Not that different from the Vortex story, really (a dentist left that profession to run a birding shop and got the idea that he could have good-quality binoculars produced overseas for a lot less than the "top" brands). I think the company supports the local birding community as well.

Thanks for the info--lots there that I didn't know. A very interesting phenomenon, this kind of niche out-sourcing. I wonder what, if anything, it will lead to as far as the larger economy is concerned? We live in a time of flux . . ..

[Sancho]

As a rickshaw/pedicab owner, I see the same argument about buying/not buying Chinese products erupt seasonally on the rickshawforum. (Some folk even claim that the Chinese-made rickshaws are imitations of the much more expensive US/UK versions.....think about it).

The questions raised about Chinese-made goods are as follows:

1. Are Chinese products innovative or mere cheap imitations?
I don´t know enough about optics to answer this, but I´ve ordered the new ZR 7x36 because it seems innovative to me...I´ve never seen a bino like it. Also, my Chinese-made Nikon ED50 is a little gem. (And my Shanghai-made rickshaw is a beauty). As I said earlier, remove all the Chinese-made products from your home and it will be a far emptier place.

2. Will buying Chinese-made goods lead to job losses in the "West"?
Of course, in the manufacturing sectors, if they can produce quality at lower cost. That´s global capitalism, folks, and we´ve all bought into it. But China is a massive market for "Western" goods too, so it swings both ways.

3. Does buying Chinese products sustain a totalitarian régime?
Tough question, this. Isolating them would certainly sustain them even more. China is now integrated into the world economy and the average Chinese are a lot better off than 30 years ago. In any case, does buying "Western" products sustain misguided "Western" political and economic policies, say in the Middle East, Latin America or Africa? And if buying Chinese products is wrong, surely selling "Western" products to China is also wrong? China holds a massive amount of US bonds, it´s over one-sixth of the world population/market, and it even launches satellites for the European Space programme. An Economic War with China would be silly, even if possible.

Meawhile, I await my ZR 7x36. I don´t know if they´ll be as good as "alphas" I´ve spent lots more money on. I´ll be delighted if they are, and also annoyed (that my "alphas" cost so much). There are at least two perspectives on everything.

[ThoLa]

Let´s sort this out, .....

Just bought a new keyboard for the comp. Had to because even the genuine Apple keyboard (made in ? ...yes!) proved not to be even moderately water-proof.
Now I have a new one which smells like a mix of wang tang instant soup, an old pencil eraser and territorial markings of a mink. So I am wondering what kind of substances are going in my fingers and what effects they might have on bodily functions.

Would have paid twice as much for a more trust-inspiring but there are none. Every single piece of plastic accessory is made in C.

As far as binoculars are concerned I feel much more relaxed and happy with something more expensive from Austria which has been certified to be practically free of substances which are not meant to be parts of my regular physiological cycles.

solventic greetings,
T

[Pinewood]

Hello Sancho and ThoLa,

Chinese products are certainly ubiquitous and often unavoidable. Rather than simply question the nature of the Chinese regime and its questionable human rights policies, suppression of religious groups and dissidents, as well as its cultural imperialism to minorities, I would pose another moral question. Am I engaging in exploitation when I purchase goods manufactured in China? As little as a Chinese worker may get for his labour, it would seem that his lot has improved in the last thirty years, but is that improvement at the expense of the well being of Western workers? Have the crony capitalists and party functionaries received most of the benefit of China's economic growth or is it being spread through much of society? The Chinese may even be working in safer environments than workers in India, considered to be a democracy.

Such conundrums have no simple answers.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur :brains:

[shaocaholica]

Err, when you purchase Chinese goods, you're not giving 100% of your money to the Chinese government. Think of the all the blue collar labor that goes into that product, regular folk with families earning much less.

Also, a lot of companies design in house and manufacture in China or some other cheap labor country. Just because the Chinese are contracted to build it doesn't mean they are 100% designing it. You are not killing innovation simply by manufacturing overseas. Heck, the great example is the iPhone and most all Apple products. Massive design efforts in the US, produced in China. One of the most reputable and design conscious companies out there. I don't think they're watering down their design and innovation by manufacturing overseas.

[shaocaholica]

Original R&D means a huge investment in engineering and retooling and that means increased prices! Then the luster falls off the product? would you be willing to $1200 for a new ZR HD2? Especially when you can find EDG's, EL's, FL's, and ultravids for close to this?

Do you really think the additional price for the alphas is all R&D overhead? Its 2009 and IMO, simple mechanical/optical devices like binos do not require a huge R&D budget. Not compared to a few decades ago. You'd be surprised at how much "R&D" can be done by a freelance engineer at home these days. Innovation doesn't require the resources of a huge corporation. Heck, its usually the companies that have become complacent that usually stop innovating. Look at the American auto industry. Leica's camera division has been playing catch up since the 60s and quite frankly doesn't seem to give a damn.

[kristoffer]

RD isnt in China afaik and the cheap price does not seem to be related to production only since many company's got production in low wage country's. Other factors seem more or as important. Maybe less expenses for advertising and staff etc.

I truly hope so dusty but at the price point that we are at with the likes of ZR and Vortex and such I don't think so.... Original R&D means a huge investment in engineering and retooling and that means increased prices! Then the luster falls off the product? would you be willing to $1200 for a new ZR HD2? Especially when you can find EDG's, EL's, FL's, and ultravids for close to this? I know I wouldn't and it has nothing to do with anything but quality and the history of service provided by the top four...

[ThoLa]

Do you really think the additional price for the alphas is all R&D overhead? Its 2009 and IMO, simple mechanical/optical devices like binos do not require a huge R&D budget. Not compared to a few decades ago. ....

I am inclined to think that the opposite is true.
Today's budgets are likely higher. There is more competition, and it takes far more effort to come up with anything better, let alone truly novel. People also seem to be much more discriminating nowadays.
Decades ago a designer did not need to ponder a host of different materials, it was "brass & glass".
All the advanced coatings we have nowadays need quite a bit of research and know-how. Then they have to be matched to a host of glass types.

Finally the turn-over times have certainly shortened. A few months after a new model has been released people begin to ask the question what we are going to have next!? A model has been around for several years is considered (by some) to be "yesterday's cold potatoes". This attitude puts additional pressure on companies and will increase R&D demans rather than relaxing the strain in these departments.


Out-sourcing engineering work to free-lancers may be a way to cut costs even more but is certainly not a move that ought to be applauded.
Brutal hire&fire was yesterday; nowadays we don't hire in the first place.

T

[Tero]

It is pretty much the same in all industry. A quality product needs more R&D. An especially a new product. That said, the new cheap ED binos required some research.

[CLRobles]

Do you really think the additional price for the alphas is all R&D overhead? Its 2009 and IMO, simple mechanical/optical devices like binos do not require a huge R&D budget. Not compared to a few decades ago. You'd be surprised at how much "R&D" can be done by a freelance engineer at home these days. Innovation doesn't require the resources of a huge corporation. Heck, its usually the companies that have become complacent that usually stop innovating. Look at the American auto industry. Leica's camera division has been playing catch up since the 60s and quite frankly doesn't seem to give a damn.
I do think it is due to R&D and constant retooling after short runs and very high quality control which means very high labor.... Your right though innovation does not require a huge corporation but the sport optic divisions of Swaro, Zeiss, Leica, and Nikon are relatively small in comparison to the size of the overall company. And I can guarantee you the big four do their own R&D in house. The American auto industry is just a whole other matter that can't even begin to be sorted out on a forum like this! Just way too many pieces to that puzzle!

RD isnt in China afaik and the cheap price does not seem to be related to production only since many company's got production in low wage country's. Other factors seem more or as important. Maybe less expenses for advertising and staff etc.
Your right... There is not much R&D in China right now but that is my point! If the big four ever decide to pull out of the sport optic game them either we will be left with the level of technology we have now or Chinese firms will be forced to do there own R&D and the price point of all these Chinese bins will rise dramatically!

[shaocaholica]

I do think it is due to R&D and constant retooling after short runs and very high quality control which means very high labor....

Ok, but not everyone is in the market for a ultra high QC low yield product. Thats not really efficient. But if you don't manufacture efficiently, then someone else will and sell a lesser product for well, less money. This is still assuming R&D time is similar but you have to account for different wages in different countries, etc, etc.

[CLRobles]

Ok, but not everyone is in the market for a ultra high QC low yield product. Thats not really efficient. But if you don't manufacture efficiently, then someone else will and sell a lesser product for well, less money. This is still assuming R&D time is similar but you have to account for different wages in different countries, etc, etc.
Well I'll leave this thread alone after this... I'm quit sure that everyone here is tired of hearing it from me.... hahaha So I apologize but I will say one last thing and then leave the rest to all of you!
I understand that the high-end bin is really a very small segment of the market but all technology in every field has a trickle down effect... Today's newest greatest high-end thing is tomorrows standard for the masses... Without the high-end market driving technology there will be no growth in any of the lines... So companies have to have the investment in both R&D and the high-end product or the growth of the product dies!

[Sancho]

Well I'll leave this thread alone after this... I'm quit sure that everyone here is tired of hearing it from me................................

On the contrary, CL, your posts are consistently balanced and highly informative.

One thing I don´t understand is why any optics manufacturers bother "pushing" innovation any further. Surely we are at the limits of what glass and alloys can do with light? The most stringent "geek-tests" show only the most minor and irrelevant differences between the various alphas, and product differentiation is now based more on non-optical features. Surely it would make more sense for the alpha companies to produce "more of the same" at cheaper cost, than continue to "innovate", when 99.99999% of binocular-users (including me) can´t distinguish optically between L/S/Z etc.? I mean, whether one is a HD/ED/EL/SE/ or FL fan, how much "more" binocular does one need? With the comparatively tiny sales-volume that 1,400-euro plus binos enjoy, how do they turn over any profit by tweaking the designs and producing a "new" model, with even tinier sales? I´m not complaining, just musing...and admittedly when the "new" EL´s come out (if ever), I´ll want to know all about them...but I honestly don´t know personally (in the real world) any other birder or bino-user who cares, or who even knows that new EL´s are flagged, or what ZR´s are or where they´re made.

[ThoLa]

On the contrary, CL, your posts are consistently balanced and highly informative.


I subscribe to that.


One thing I don´t understand is why any optics manufacturers bother "pushing" innovation any further. /QUOTE]

Why do race drivers still go in circles, risking their necks, to squeeze another one-hundredth of a second out of a lap? We are certainly at a limit (or are we?) of what rubber tyres and alloys can do to a track.
Must be something deep inside the darkest recesses of human nature itself, I suppose.

[QUOTE=Sancho;1542343]Surely we are at the limits of what glass and alloys can do with light? ...

"Surely we are at the limits of what wooden wheels and horses can do with desert sand" Isn't that what they used to say at Tombstone when gun slingers were idling away their days at the OK Corral waiting for the stage-coach? ;)

I mean, whether one is a HD/ED/EL/SE/ or FL fan, how much "more" binocular does one need?

Have a look around this place! You'll find the answer - many answers - in the fierce battles people are having.

Or am I wrong?
T

[Pileatus]

On the contrary, CL, your posts are consistently balanced and highly informative.

One thing I don´t understand is why any optics manufacturers bother "pushing" innovation any further. Surely we are at the limits of what glass and alloys can do with light? The most stringent "geek-tests" show only the most minor and irrelevant differences between the various alphas, and product differentiation is now based more on non-optical features. Surely it would make more sense for the alpha companies to produce "more of the same" at cheaper cost, than continue to "innovate", when 99.99999% of binocular-users (including me) can´t distinguish optically between L/S/Z etc.? I mean, whether one is a HD/ED/EL/SE/ or FL fan, how much "more" binocular does one need? With the comparatively tiny sales-volume that 1,400-euro plus binos enjoy, how do they turn over any profit by tweaking the designs and producing a "new" model, with even tinier sales? I´m not complaining, just musing...and admittedly when the "new" EL´s come out (if ever), I´ll want to know all about them...but I honestly don´t know personally (in the real world) any other birder or bino-user who cares, or who even knows that new EL´s are flagged, or what ZR´s are or where they´re made.
Innovation is in our DNA.
http://blog.modernmechanix.com/mags/PopularScience/6-1942/sound_detectors.jpg
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/06/20/tech/main4198551.shtml

[ThoLa]

Innovation is in our DNA.
http://blog.modernmechanix.com/mags/PopularScience/6-1942/sound_detectors.jpg
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/06/20/tech/main4198551.shtml

Scaring!
#
I don't want no binucolar who is smarta than me.

[ThoLa]

I think we'll see more original R&D and less copying from China in the future.

Yes, the next big innovation might come from there:

[Howard220]

R & D* tells me that lens caps will cost extra

(*Roy and Dave)

[shaocaholica]

Surely it would make more sense for the alpha companies to produce "more of the same" at cheaper cost...

Like I said, if they don't do this, someone else will do it for them.

On another note, I'm curious as to what others think about "copying" the alphas really means. What features/innovations do the alphas possess that are actually patentable? If any, have they been infringed?

[ThoLa]

R & D* tells me that lens caps will cost extra

(*Roy and Dave)

Roy & Dave? :eek!:
What happened to Siegfried?

[ceasar]

Ah, think of the possibility of being able to "morph" into an affordable new binocular technology known as "Brain Wave Binoculars" using "neuromorphic" technology to study "darkmorph" and "lightmorph" raptors. Morph will be heard from the Chinese on this! You bet!;)
Bob

[Howard220]

I didn't know Morph was Chinese. Mindy surely wasn't. Or was she?

[Kevin Purcell]

Like I said, if they don't do this, someone else will do it for them.

On another note, I'm curious as to what others think about "copying" the alphas really means. What features/innovations do the alphas possess that are actually patentable? If any, have they been infringed?

Innovations in pure optics are rare though they are seen in the patent literature but they don't cover the optics were talking about.

Most of the innovation is in optomechanical design (and it's where the major bins makers all hold patents): clever focuser designs especially with center diopter setting.

In this case the Chinese EDs use a simple "move the right ocular" (sort of individual focuser) design. Old as the hills, so to speak, check your favorite porro. The Top Bins (and some others) use a more clever mechanism with center diopter setting to lock an offset between one focuser lens and the other.

So changing to a locking center diopter setting would be an interesting indication of a change in Chinese ED bin optomechanical design.

They don't seem to patent their various coating designs (though there are patents on various AR and phase coatings most expired) preferring I suppose to keep them as a trade secret (or perhaps improved coatings aren't innovative enough in the "non-obvious" sense to gain patent protection) though they're "easy" to reverse engineer with an ion microprobe for composition (and with more effort for thickness). I suspect the physicas of multilayer coatings is well enough known in the regular textbook literature that the design and manufacture of good coatings is not beyond a lot of companies now (including the Chinese). Very good coatings might still be the province of the Top Bins though.

And their optical designs seem to be trade secrets (and again easily reverse engineered). Not protected in any way except trade secret i.e. your employees and the company doesn't reveal the design but if the opposition can figure it out they can use the design idea.

They will also hold design patents which cover the appearance of the binoculars (the trade dress) so that people can't make bins that look just like Top Bin XXX.

So I'm not sure what copying means in this context: using well known optical designs with well known coatings with well known optomechanics (as the Chinese ED seem to do) with careful enough construction with good components doesn't seem to be copying anyone but just using "known" technology carefully enough to make optically high quality bins but doing it at a lower cost.

So the real innovation is the pricing for a given (high) quality. And I wouldn't write that off as trivial.

[Sancho]

So I'm not sure what copying means in this context: using well known optical designs with well known coatings with well known optomechanics (as the Chinese ED seem to do) with careful enough construction with good components doesn't seem to be copying anyone but just using "known" technology carefully enough to make optically high quality bins but doing it at a lower cost.

So the real innovation is the pricing for a given (high) quality. And I wouldn't write that off as trivial.
Sorry to keep coming back to bicycles (my other obsession) but it seems to me that in these, exactly the same principle applies, now that engineers have exhausted (almost?) all possible innovation. And most good bikes are now designed in the UK or Europe, but manufactured in Asia (even the US companies like Trek, Giant etc.). Every so often someone like Shimano comes up with a "different" hub, or lever design or whatever, but it gets "copied" with minor cosmetic variation. Two grand will now buy you a bicycle that´s 99.99999% the equal of a Tour winner. But that´s what bike companies are doing...as well as producing the "average" bike, they´re lowering the costs of top-class models and churning them out (with different livery each year....) Maybe because "serious" cyclists change their bikes more often than binocular-users? (I mean normal, psychologically healthy bino-users, not us lot.....;))

[Kevin Conville]

Surely we are at the limits of what glass and alloys can do with light?

Maybe. But mistakes have been made before.

"There is nothing new to be discovered in physics now, All that remains is more and more precise measurement."

-Lord Kelvin (1824-1907)

[shaocaholica]

Stuff...

Thanks for the optics/trade refresher. So do all the top bins have their own fancy new diopter mechanisms? I'm not sure if I've seen the center diopter adjustment on multiple brands. I wonder who it actually belongs to and if its licensed from them.

[SPARTACVS]

Thanks for the optics/trade refresher. So do all the top bins have their own fancy new diopter mechanisms? I'm not sure if I've seen the center diopter adjustment on multiple brands. I wonder who it actually belongs to and if its licensed from them.

And the ocular gets dirty less easily.

[falcondude]

Don't RSPB HD and Vortex Fury already have center diopter? They are made in China too.

The Swaro EL and Nikon Monarch have been on the market for god knows how long. The companies behind those names do not seem to bother to come up new EL or Monarch every couple of years as long as there is no competition and they can sell the products for whatever price people are willing to pay. For folks who value innovation, those high quality binoculars from China should force Alpha makers to actually "innovate" so they can differentiate themselves from the 99.999% as good competitors. Without competition, we will be naive to think those companies (German, Japanese, Chinese, or whatever brands out there) will innovate just for the sake of engineering curiosity.3:-)

[Kevin Purcell]

falcondude: Good comment about the (new?) RSPB HD (didn't the placement of the diopter setting just move ...) and the Vortex Fury. I wonder if that's Vortex own optomech design or exclusively licensed to them from one of the ODMs. Exclusive licensing is another approach to keeping a feature to you own company (at least for a single OEM).

BTW, I'm not sure that I want (or need) a new fancy product every year but that's more a consequence of the current rapid change in the Chinese bin makers approach. I would expect them to calm down after a while. After all Swaro doesn't want to annoy its customers too much once they had the latest and greatest.

SPARTACVS: not sure what you mean by "And the ocular gets dirty less easily". I wouldn't say that was a feature of either setting method.

[Kevin Purcell]

Maybe. But mistakes have been made before.

"There is nothing new to be discovered in physics now, All that remains is more and more precise measurement."

-Lord Kelvin (1824-1907)

I would never say never but optics is a pretty well established field.

Kelvin's comment was to the whole field of physics which was silly statement (especially as there were some known problems at the time) but the field of binocular design (as a subfield of optics) is much much smaller rather like Sancho's field of bikes (Champs du bicyclette, peut etre?)): the designs are quite constrained.

It's a bit like saying "Well there could be big breakthroughs in tea bag design in the future" and quoting Kelvin's statement to put down the arguments against. Maybe but it's unlikely.

Think about the last major innovations in this field and the current outstanding problems.

I think lightweight IS would be the next big step beyond moving out of optics entirely which would be a paradigm shift (to HD video mediate by a image processor).

In the meantime Nikon EDG (from it's advertising and placement e.g. in Audubon mag) is trying to re-educate the public that "good bins" are "sharp to the edge". And it looks like Swaro will be next on that bandwagon next year. Nice optical design improvement? Yes. Innovation? Not really, IMHO.

Electroptical systems are the future so long as you can wear them around you neck ;)

[kristoffer]

I would never say never but optics is a pretty well established field.

Kelvin's comment was to the whole field of physics which was silly statement (especially as there were some known problems at the time) but the field of binocular design (as a subfield of optics) is much much smaller rather like Sancho's field of bikes (Champs du bicyclette, peut etre?)): the designs are quite constrained.

It's a bit like saying "Well there could be big breakthroughs in tea bag design in the future" and quoting Kelvin's statement to put down the arguments against. Maybe but it's unlikely.

Think about the last major innovations in this field and the current outstanding problems.

I think lightweight IS would be the next big step beyond moving out of optics entirely which would be a paradigm shift (to HD video mediate by a image processor).

In the meantime Nikon EDG (from it's advertising and placement e.g. in Audubon mag) is trying to re-educate the public that "good bins" are "sharp to the edge". And it looks like Swaro will be next on that bandwagon next year. Nice optical design improvement? Yes. Innovation? Not really, IMHO.

Electroptical systems are the future so long as you can wear them around you neck ;)

IS + computers can probably do some funky stuff to bins in the future. So our alphas now are probably not so hot in 20 years.

[Sancho]

IS + computers can probably do some funky stuff to bins in the future. So our alphas now are probably not so hot in 20 years.
I won´t be so hot myself in 20 years, so I probably won´t care....B (:

[Kevin Conville]

KP-
I would never say never but optics is a pretty well established field.

Granted optics generally is well established but who knows what tricks might come down the pike with bins and/or scopes.

It's a bit like saying "Well there could be big breakthroughs in tea bag design in the future" and quoting Kelvin's statement to put down the arguments against.

Or, like analogizing optics with tea bags to be reductive.


I think lightweight IS would be the next big step beyond moving out of optics entirely which would be a paradigm shift (to HD video mediate by a image processor).

Here I agree. Some kind of passive IS built into a design that looks and handles like a conventional bin would be huge. The video thing is bound to happen, but will be contrary to many folks idea of a field optic.

In the meantime Nikon EDG (from it's advertising and placement e.g. in Audubon mag) is trying to re-educate the public that "good bins" are "sharp to the edge". And it looks like Swaro will be next on that bandwagon next year. Nice optical design improvement? Yes. Innovation? Not really, IMHO.

Yeah, and I don't care about that "feature" either. Birding bins are birding bins and astro bins, well...

I love to use the Kelvin quote though as it humorously rephrases "never say never". It may have been a silly statement as you say, but it was said by an otherwise brilliant man.

[mayoayo]

Roy & Dave? :eek!:
What happened to Siegfried?

A Tiger (imported from a Chinese Farm)got Him..Poor thing(the Tiger,I mean)

[Sancho]

[QUOTE=Kevin Conville;1542957Or, like analogizing optics with tea bags to be reductive.
[/QUOTE]
A few years ago, some company here started marketing tea-bags that were pyramid-shaped. I´m not joking. They maintained that they made better tea. Given that tea-bags in general make crap tea, I never tried them. (It occurs to me that, amazingly, prisms are pyramid-shaped....and that tea is yet another fine Chinese innovation we´ve "appropriated".....)

[ceasar]

I didn't know Morph was Chinese. Mindy surely wasn't. Or was she?

I should have said "Morph from the Chinese will be heard on this subject." But it was really to early to be punning anyway!3:-)3:-)
Bob

[ThoLa]

A Tiger (imported from a Chinese Farm)got Him..Poor thing(the Tiger,I mean)

I see.
The ferocious chinese tiger .... that's what the thread is about, isn't it?
Obviously not a vegetarian tiger who lives on soy bean sprouts.

So all of you who like to tickle the tiger: count your fingers after you've gotten close to him. Or watch them tightly in the first place, or else there might be nothing much to count later. ;)

[ThoLa]

A few years ago, some company here started marketing tea-bags that were pyramid-shaped. I´m not joking. They maintained that they made better tea..... (It occurs to me that, amazingly, prisms are pyramid-shaped.....)

So were those tea-bags multi-coated?

I suppose their transmission rate was rather poor, and I guess their colour rendition may have been biased, too (a brownish tint maybe?).
Sounds like a rather poor design then.

A question for the experts: will Porro tea-bags yield better tea than roof tea bags?

[joannec]

Maybe because "serious" cyclists change their bikes more often than binocular-users? (I mean normal, psychologically healthy bino-users, not us lot.....;))

3:-) 3:-)

So were those tea-bags multi-coated?

I suppose their transmission rate was rather poor, and I guess their colour rendition may have been biased, too (a brownish tint maybe?).
Sounds like a rather poor design then.

A question for the experts: will Porro tea-bags yield better tea than roof tea bags?

We could put them on the menu and do a controlled test for the non normal psycologically non healthy bin users....Sancho can be chief judge.

[ThoLa]

.... the non normal psycologically non healthy bin users....Sancho can be chief judge.

Oh dear!
Are you talking yourself into trouble here?


Pyramidal greetings from behind the bar at the R at the end of Everything,
Tea-Tom*




*who is actually gulping amorphic coffee this morning.

[NoSpringChicken]

I still maintain that pyramid shaped tea bags have better edge sharpness than round ones.

Ron

[Sancho]

I still maintain that pyramid shaped tea bags have better edge sharpness than round ones.

Ron

LOL!!!

Here´s some dubious info on the dubiously-shaped tea-bags:
http://www.teaandcoffee.net/0305/tea.htm

Personally I prefer the Image Stabilisation a good cup of Lavazza coffee provides in dawn conditions.

But here´s another link, claiming that tea-bags provide better eye-relief:
http://www.ehow.com/how_4515468_use-tea-bags-swollen-eyes.html

[kristoffer]

A friend of mine who is hanging around various other hobby forums reports that they have similar threads like this, however I dare to say that they have not reached the teabag discussion, yet ;)

[ThoLa]

I still maintain that pyramid shaped tea bags have better edge sharpness than round ones.
Ron

Yes, they have the edge over conventional tea bags, but the improved performance comes at an increased risk of physical injury, especially when PTBs (pyramidal tea bags) are handled very early in the morning in an semi-somnolent state, or by inexperienced users.
Bleeding into the tea-cup at 7 am is not considered a perfect start into the day by most users.

It would therefore be great if all tea drinkers on BF could sign a petition to introduce appropriate legislation to make it mandatory for tea makers to enclose all extra-sharp PTBs into carbon-fibre reinforced high tensile strength polymer housings to render their use safe even for unskilled teenagers preparing tea for their beloved parents.

Rumours have it that an alternative housing made from an ISS-proven high-tech light-metal sapce-age alloy is in the pipeline. The release of it is hampered, though, by a patent battle between NASA and the Shanghai-based company MRRSTE (Mao Red Revolution Space Tech Enterprises).

In the meantime I'll have a cup of:

[Kevin Purcell]

I still maintain that pyramid shaped tea bags have better edge sharpness than round ones.

Ron

I don't know anyone who makes the tea through the sides of their tea bag. The large pores in the center of the teabag work fine.

Then again there are folks like Sancho who believe that loose tea is less expensive and makes better tea without needing a silly bag and all it's special coatings but I think he ignores the ergonomics of the tea bags that has made them so popular.

Will Tetley and Typhoo keep making loose tea? Or will the whole market switch to bags?

Tea bag size? Is bigger better? What about early morning tea drinking?

How strong should your tea be? Can a weak tea be as satisfying as a good strong cuppa? Does it depend on your tea drinking experience?

What about Chinese tea? Can it be as good as the top European teas?

[kristoffer]

What about Chinese tea? Can it be as good as the top European teas?

No no, what does the Chinese know about tea? Everyone knows that the Germans make the best tea, and that the British got the best food. ;)

[Sancho]

....even for unskilled teenagers preparing tea for their beloved parents.


Do teenagers really do that? That´s heartening to know, ´cos I´ll have one in the house in about two years.

Meanwhile, I´ve discovered that the way to make a perfect cup of Oolong is to loosely pack about a teaspoonful through the focussing-bridge hole of a pair of 8.5x42 EL´s, then add boiling water. Allow to infuse, while using the binos if you wish (best wear a pair of oven-gloves), then simply tip the bins upside-down and allow the refreshing Oriental beverage to dribble out into your waiting mouth.

I hope the "EL-neu" incorporate an even bigger tea-hole.

[ThoLa]

...
Meanwhile, I´ve discovered that the way to make a perfect cup of Oolong is to loosely pack about a teaspoonful through the focussing-bridge hole of a pair of 8.5x42 EL´s, then add boiling water. Allow to infuse, while using the binos if you wish (best wear a pair of oven-gloves), then simply tip the bins upside-down and allow the refreshing Oriental beverage to dribble out into your waiting mouth.
I hope the "EL-neu" incorporate an even bigger tea-hole.

So you mean that the EL is the hottest bin around!? ;)

[joannec]

3:-)Thanks so much guys. ThoLa, Sancho, Ron, Kris, Kevin, you are really making me laugh. I'm stuck in, immobilised following two knee operations.:-C You're cheering me up. I don't like tea bags; I'm with Sancho, whatever shape, it's dust and dregs. I like that delicate Assam tea.

[kristoffer]

Since we implicit talk about Zen Ray and we established that their RD is in the USA just like tons of other brands the talk about how Chinese RD operates is somewhat obsolete. Zens RD probably works just like every other Western RD department.

[Swedpat]

Chinese optics are very good value for the money. But one big drawback is the lacking quality control. It's quite like playing on a lottery; you can get a good example, but the risk to get a faulty is big. I will not by chinese optics without the possibility to send it back, OR try it before purchase and make my own careful quality control.

Regards, Patric

[Sancho]

Mrs. Sancho is Chinese. Interestingly, she doesn´t buy my excuse for ordering ZR´s...that I´m merely supporting her Motherland´s economy. In this respect she has become far too Westernised....saying "What do you need another pair of binoculars for?". I´ve been meaning to have a word with her about this Capitalist Roadster attitude. As the Chinese used to say - "Ni Taidu You Wenti"....;)

[shaocaholica]

Chinese optics are very good value for the money. But one big drawback is the lacking quality control. It's quite like playing on a lottery; you can get a good example, but the risk to get a faulty is big. I will not by chinese optics without the possibility to send it back, OR try it before purchase and make my own careful quality control.

Regards, Patric

Thats quite the blanket statement. QC is a factor of cost for a company. Theres no law in China forbidding high QC. Apple's iPhones/iPods/Macs are all made in China and I would say the QC is pretty high on those "made in china" products.

[Sancho]

Apple's iPhones/iPods/Macs are all made in China and I would say the QC is pretty high on those "made in china" products.
My Nikon ED50 too (did I mention this earlier? Sorry if so). Made in China, absolute top-notch quality.

[CLRobles]

Since we implicit talk about Zen Ray and we established that their RD is in the USA just like tons of other brands the talk about how Chinese RD operates is somewhat obsolete. Zens RD probably works just like every other Western RD department.

I don't believe this statement to be even remotely close to the truth! I highly doubt ZR has a team of engineers in a optical lab doing research and development for them..... This is why I said that they knew going in the market the trends (IE market demand for a particular bin with particular specs) but the challenge for them will be three to five years down the road when they have make hard decisions on whether they stay at a certain optical level or push for R&D..... Right now I'm quite sure ZR has no R&D at all! They mearly go to their Chinese optics firm that they are doing business with and hand them some established specs that they would like to duplicate....

[shaocaholica]

They mearly go to their ______ optics firm that they are doing business with and hand them some established specs that they would like to duplicate....

You can fill in the blank with whatever you want but isn't this how most companies do business? A competitor comes out with something new, and everyone tries to duplicate/replicate it.

[falcondude]

My Nikon ED50 too (did I mention this earlier? Sorry if so). Made in China, absolute top-notch quality.


I didn't know ED50 is made in China. For a long time, I thought Nikon Monarch was made in Japan because of the large font logo on the focuser " Nikon Vision Japan". It turns out it was churned out by chinese companies too.

Chinese optics are very good value for the money. But one big drawback is the lacking quality control. It's quite like playing on a lottery; you can get a good example, but the risk to get a faulty is big. I will not by chinese optics without the possibility to send it back, OR try it before purchase and make my own careful quality control.

Regards, Patric

ultimately, it is those companies behind the labels responsible for the Q/C and product reputation of their products. If my ipod broke, I will take it to Apple store, not to foxconn to have it fixed. We should expect the same for the optics too.

[Kevin Purcell]

My Nikon ED50 too (did I mention this earlier? Sorry if so). Made in China, absolute top-notch quality.

It turns out it was churned out by chinese companies too.

You mean designed and made by a Japanese company with their own factories in China.

Nikon, Pentax (and I bet plenty of others) have their own optical component and assembly factories in Japan. They use the same process as they used in Japan but with a cheaper workforce.

Like you I didn't realize a pair of Pentax HS was Chinese for two days until I saw the metal label embedded in the armor that said "Pentax Made in China". Unlike a lot of other firms it isn't a plastic transparent stick on label hidden on the bin. It's on the base of the bin with company brand and location together. Pentax are happy with their manufacturing location because they've realized it doesn't make a difference to quality.

So assuming "Made in China" == Poor Quality is just not true any more. I

t may be true some of the time (isn't everything ... I can point you in the direction of crappy US products too.

[CLRobles]

You can fill in the blank with whatever you want but isn't this how most companies do business? A competitor comes out with something new, and everyone tries to duplicate/replicate it.
Yup your exactly right and back up my point completely..... ZR does not have a R&D budget!
ultimately, it is those companies behind the labels responsible for the Q/C and product reputation of their products. If my ipod broke, I will take it to Apple store, not to foxconn to have it fixed. We should expect the same for the optics too.Correct again! and as I said this is the challenge for ZR in the next three to five years..... They are such a new company who knows if they will be around in 5, 10, 15, 30 years to properly warranty their bins??? And there has already been enough evidence on forums here with small things going wrong that they are not of the quality of a European made bin.... Not even a mid priced one like a Docter Optic or a Meopta!

You mean designed and made by a Japanese company with their own factories in China. So assuming "Made in China" == Poor Quality is just not true any more.
Exactly! Engineered by a Japanese company who does have a R&D team and $'s, then made with the low cost labor pool! And no one said that "Made in China" = Poor quality..... They (I) said "Made in China" = Cheap! as in "No Resale" or "lasting" value!!!!! What do you think a used set of ZR ed's will sell for on ebay in ten years??? One just sold for $315 several days ago. So its safe to assume that in ten they will be a throw-a-way bin with no value! Where as a ten year old Swarovski SLC that sold for $1000 still brings $1000!

[shaocaholica]

So its safe to assume that in ten they will be a throw-a-way bin with no value! Where as a ten year old Swarovski SLC that sold for $1000 still brings $1000!

Depends on if you're a collector or a user. A 10 year old Zen/Swaro/Zeiss from 2009 will still perform like a 10 year old Zen/Swaro/Zeiss from 2009. So what if its resale value goes down? Its not like the Zen's will decompose into dust.

Look at this the other way. I can buy ~3-4 Zens for the price of an alpha. That means that if the lifespan of your alpha is ~10 years, I can replace my Zens every 2.5 years while getting new tech each time and an extra set to boot. At the end of 10 years, I'll have 4 "Zens" or whatever brand is filling Zen's spot with the last one of those having the absolute bleeding edge tech or I could still have the one 10 year old alpha. For a "user", it makes more sense to replace frequently but thats not to say the Zens will break down, just that something better will make it obsolete.

[CLRobles]

Depends on if you're a collector or a user. A 10 year old Zen/Swaro/Zeiss from 2009 will still perform like a 10 year old Zen/Swaro/Zeiss from 2009. So what if its resale value goes down? Its not like the Zen's will decompose into dust.

Look at this the other way. I can buy ~3-4 Zens for the price of an alpha. That means that if the lifespan of your alpha is ~10 years, I can replace my Zens every 2.5 years while getting new tech each time and an extra set to boot. At the end of 10 years, I'll have 4 "Zens" or whatever brand is filling Zen's spot with the last one of those having the absolute bleeding edge tech or I could still have the one 10 year old alpha.
True you could do that.... But seeing as how a new SLC can be had for $1400 you could just sell your ten year old SLC's and buy up for $400 and a savings because the next ten years will be had at the $400:t: This is how I choose to but optics and always have the best and something of value.... You know there is something to be said for owning something of value!

[falcondude]

True you could do that.... But seeing as how a new SLC can be had for $1400 you could just sell your ten year old SLC's and buy up for $400 and a savings because the next ten years will be had at the $400:t: This is how I choose to but optics and always have the best and something of value.... You know there is something to be said for owning something of value!

well, I don't know if the alphas is really holding the value. When Swaroski lowered their EL price by around $200 early this year, the equity in my EL automatically dropped by that amount. It is the same thing when Leica offers $350 rebate. People who bought Leica before rebate is available automatically overpaid $350 (that is about what you pay for ZEN ED). Just saw a post that is selling his brand new Ultravid for less than half of the original price.

[CLRobles]

well, I don't know if the alphas is really holding the value. When Swaroski lowered their EL price by around $200 early this year, the equity in my EL automatically dropped by that amount. It is the same thing when Leica offers $350 rebate. People who bought Leica before rebate is available automatically overpaid $350 (that is about what you pay for ZEN ED). Just saw a post that is selling his brand new Ultravid for less than half of the original price.
A pair of used, three year old SLC's just sold for $1105.56 (Auction#190324150600) and a set of used EL's just sold for $1395.00 (auction #190323509582) on ebay..... Heck a 20 year old pair of SLC's just sold for $707 (auction#250470345159)... I would be willing to bet these bins were bought at or less than this price new!
Why is it so hard for some to believe that these bins hold their value and buying quality is a good investment???? Its beyond me that people are willing to live in a disposable society!

[Kevin Purcell]

It might be because these bins haven't seen a model replacement yet so as the current price inflates they're resale prices increase too.

The real test is when the neu EL comes out. Which way will prices go? Will people be so shocked at the price tag that old ELs will seem like a bargain. Or will they be yesterdays goods (no ED glass ... how can you bear to look through them ;) )

Ask me how much a pair of Zeiss Victory 8x40 are worth. Top bins right. Previous generation.

Design Selection? Trinovids? Perhaps the best of the group in price but worth more than you paid for them?

Plus ePay is pretty much the highest prices out there: they're not typical selling prices but what someone at the top end of the market wants. What you'll actually get varies a fair bit.

I notice that for example a 7x42 Dyalit on the For Sale here is still for sale after a significant time. No takers. Not a very liquid asset.

I don't disagree with a weaker statement: that the top bins hold their prices longer. But making money on them. Sounds rather like a bubble driven pricing (get in down before the prioces go up!) by rather odd price inflation on new top bins.

Plus there's the opportunity cost of tying your money up in a larger capitol investment.

[shaocaholica]

Its beyond me that people are willing to live in a disposable society!

Thats the price of having the latest and greatest with huge economies of scale. I don't mind, as long as its not horrible for the environment. New TV every ~5 years, new computer every ~2 years, new DSLR every ~2 years, etc. I usually make ~60-70% of my money back after selling the things I replace and thats the price I pay to stay current. Its a lifestyle that more and more people are willing to accept, at least the younger ones. I'm sure I might get tired of it when I'm older but you can't ignore the younger demographic.

[CLRobles]

you can't ignore the younger demographic.
:-O I don't think you'll get 60 to 70% return on Chinese optics in five years.... Maybe I'm wrong but they don't perform like that now!

[shaocaholica]

:-O I don't think you'll get 60 to 70% return on Chinese optics in five years.... Maybe I'm wrong but they don't perform like that now!

How would you know?

[CLRobles]

How would you know?
Cause a set of ZR 10x43 ed's less than a year old just sold for $310 on ebay (67% of retail) and another like new set is on there now for $329 "buy it now"..... Come on man! Really! Are you gonna fight this battle! Are you gonna step up and tell me something that is less than a year old and has already depreciated this much is going to have any lasting value 5 to 10 years down the road! You really going to go there! Like all of a sudden this Chinese made bin is going to start to appreciate and be worth more down the road! Wake up! Its a throw-a-way bin that will have ZERO value in 10 years! 0% of retail = zero dollars in worth!
Have fun throwing your money away!

sorry about the rant..... just hate to see people that can't see value and try to argue retail..... I've been here for over twenty years and it just works me up sometimes:smoke:

[shaocaholica]

Oh, I mis read your last post. I thought you meant that they are losing value because they don't perform. I didn't realize you meant "perform" with respect to appreciation.

Well, as long as I use them, and they perform optically and mechanically, they will have provided the value I need. I'm not into binos for their resale value. It sounds like you are and thats fine and it makes sense that Zens provide none of that for you and probably why they don't appeal to you.

[CLRobles]

Oh, I mis read your last post. I thought you meant that they are losing value because they don't perform. I didn't realize you meant "perform" with respect to appreciation.

Well, as long as I use them, and they perform optically and mechanically, they will have provided the value I need. I'm not into binos for their resale value. It sounds like you are and thats fine and it makes sense that Zens provide none of that for you and probably why they don't appeal to you.

I completely agree with everyone here that the Zens are a great bin "optically" speaking..... I say this having never looked through a pair, but have read too many posts by all of you that I do respect!
But I do know the optics business and retail... And something I have learned is that the "over priced" European bins do hold their value and give a return when its time to trade up..... Just trying to pass this on and be of some help... If I'm just being disruptive I apologize and will keep quite?
The one thing that I have seen with a lot of Chinese bins is that yes they are quite good optically speaking but,,,,,,, they are not of a overall quality build. They have good glass and "state of the art" coatings and this gives a very good view in return.... But they do not have the finish or detail of a European or Nikon bin. They just don't.... You know even the Swarovski EL had issues with the focus adjustment in it. The EL was prone to having one barrel become stuck in one place because of a broken linkage.... If a company like Swarovski has these issues what do you think can happen with a bin that has much less quality control? Look at all the little details that make up a bin.... That's all I'm saying.... Its the sum of the total and not just the view that makes these Alpha bins command the price they do! And they hold their value... This makes them something (I think) a hobbyist would want? A bin that could be used for many years and then sold for almost as much as the purchase price when wanting a newer bin....

[shaocaholica]

A bin that could be used for many years and then sold for almost as much as the purchase price when wanting a newer bin....

Yeah but try telling that to the wife.

[CLRobles]

Yeah but try telling that to the wife.

OK, you have a point! I can't win with that one.... hahahaha! I'm just lucky mine lets me keep a little coin for my hobbies:king:

[Fireform]

Whenever the issue of buying Chinese products comes up and there are other alternatives, I can't help but remember this story:

Chinese fireworks factory (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/1325558/38-children-killed-making-fireworks-at-Chinese-school.html)

I'm sure it was an isolated incident.

[shaocaholica]

Whenever the issue of buying Chinese products comes up and there are other alternatives, I can't help but remember this story:

Chinese fireworks factory (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/1325558/38-children-killed-making-fireworks-at-Chinese-school.html)

I'm sure it was an isolated incident.

So the lesson to learn is don't buy Chinese fireworks? Its all a big catch 22 really. Chinese children are being forced to do dangerous labor so we shouldn't buy those products which in turn will cause those companies to lose business and in turn cause more unemployment in that community. Perhaps the solution is to solve the problem rather than look away.

Honestly, you're not going to change much by pointing to alternatives based on anecdotes like this one. Its much more efficient to sway consumers with positive advertising rather than negative. If you don't like what the Chinese are doing, then you need to tell your consumers what you're doing better not how they are doing worse.

[Fireform]

So the lesson to learn is don't buy Chinese fireworks? Its all a big catch 22 really. Chinese children are being forced to do dangerous labor so we shouldn't buy those products which in turn will cause those companies to lose business and in turn cause more unemployment in that community. Perhaps the solution is to solve the problem rather than look away.

Honestly, you're not going to change much by pointing to alternatives based on anecdotes like this one. Its much more efficient to sway consumers with positive advertising rather than negative. If you don't like what the Chinese are doing, then you need to tell your consumers what you're doing better not how they are doing worse.

As long as we're being honest, I honestly think that a high level of unemployment among elementary school-aged children is a good thing. The rest of your post doesn't make a lot of sense to me, either.

I have a problem with buying products from societies where this kind of thing goes on, and where leaded paint on children's toys, deadly additives in food and sulfuric acid in drywall only seem to attract attention when they are noticed by outsiders. Did you know that two thirds of the world's coal mining deaths (http://www.michigandaily.com/content/chinese-coal-mines-prove-perilous) take place in China? I admit that the level of vigilance required to avoid it entirely is beyond what most consumers can muster, but what kind of person refuses to do what they can?

[Kevin Purcell]

Whenever the issue of buying Chinese products comes up and there are other alternatives, I can't help but remember this story:

Chinese fireworks factory (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/1325558/38-children-killed-making-fireworks-at-Chinese-school.html)

I'm sure it was an isolated incident.

Like the one in Netherlands? Enschede fireworks disaster

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enschede_fireworks_disaster

See the Europeans can have just as good diasters as the Chinese.

Perhaps they have Alpha disasters too? Oh, wait they do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piper_Alpha

"world's worst offshore oil disaster in terms both of lives lost and impact to industry"

When you can point to a disaster involving bins then it might be relevant here.

[shaocaholica]

I admit that the level of vigilance required to avoid it entirely is beyond what most consumers can muster, but what kind of person refuses to do what they can?

Depends on what exactly you think you're accomplishing by doing that. Will not buying Chinese products stop those abuses? Will not buying Chinese air conditioners have any effect on tainted Chinese milk? Why be so broad?

[china guy]

I'm afraid a few birders boycotting Chinese bins - ain't going to do much for winning the Chinese population any democratic rights.

If you really want to do something to help us birders out here - then why not write to the nearest PRC Embassy and ask them why the authorities aren't activly following up on Chinese Wildlife protection laws - why reserves seem under-manned with skilled wardens, why no real action seems to be taken to prevent poaching, why you can find wild-birds for sale in every town - the system here is such that we haven't got any official organ that we can question - but I'm sure a few 1000 Emails from Birders of the world may strir something up!!!!

Ohhhh - and by the way - dont mention my name, I live in China - I could get in trouble for making deviant suggestions ;)

[FrankD]

Ohhhh - and by the way - dont mention my name, I live in China - I could get in trouble for making deviant suggestions

Now that right there is funny. I don't care who you are. 3:-)

...and then again...it isn't.

:(

[SPARTACVS]

...based on anecdotes like this one.

Are you serious?

You want to hear another "anecdote"? In a documentary about Tibet, a former prisoner was explaining a torture the police use. They handcuff peoples and suspend them for a long period. But they had a problem as the hands were detaching from the body (you read it correctly). They solved this by making a system where they could adjust the level of the prisoner so the big toes where touching the ground...

Funny because the same peoples who say there's nothing we can do, just a few birders won't change anything, etc. are the same peoples who blame everybody for the lack of intervention in 1938...

Why invade Irak? Wasn't it because Saddam was a bad guy? But if it brings us cheap prices, the speech is totally different?!

While we're at it, 9/11 was an anecdote...

Doing nothing is not good and there is many things that can be done. Adressing teh problem is the first step. Then let's find a solution. Otherwise saying there's nothing we can do is saying I don't care.

[shaocaholica]

Are you serious?

You want to hear another "anecdote"? In a documentary about Tibet, a former prisoner was explaining a torture the police use. They handcuff peoples and suspend them for a long period. But they had a problem as the hands were detaching from the body (you read it correctly). They solved this by making a system where they could adjust the level of the prisoner so the big toes where touching the ground...

Funny because the same peoples who say there's nothing we can do, just a few birders won't change anything, etc. are the same peoples who blame everybody for the lack of intervention in 1938...

Why invade Irak? Wasn't it because Saddam was a bad guy? But if it brings us cheap prices, the speech is totally different?!

While we're at it, 9/11 was an anecdote...

Doing nothing is not good and there is many things that can be done. Adressing teh problem is the first step. Then let's find a solution. Otherwise saying there's nothing we can do is saying I don't care.

How did we get from Chinese binoculars to 9/11? I think it would be safe to say nobody here is supporting any of the atrocities you've mentioned. The difference in opinion here is that should "societies" be viewed as a whole.

Should I feel any guilt for buying American made goods because of the atrocities America has committed present and past? Japanese/German goods for what they did during WWII? Israeli goods(Intel does a fair bit of R&D there BTW, the same Intel hardware that is running the computer I'm typing on)?

If I knew a certain company was committing horrible acts on its employees or had direct ties to other atrocities, I would certainly stop buying from them but to lump a whole people together just doesn't make any sense both morally and economically.

[spitfiretriple]

.... the pricing of Chin Bins and German/Austrian bins would have to be similar. But I agree, that really is another thread.
"Chin bins". Now there's a phrase that deserves to be more widely used.

there are only two roads we as optic enthusiast can follow.... One is the pursuit of optical excellence and the other is the pursuit of lower cost bins...
This is a maxim much spoken (without the optics/bins reference) by retailers. I'm not sure it is always true of retailers, let alone binocular manufacturers. I myself don't want 100% of the excellence at 100% of the price (though I'm happy for those that do to indulge themselves). Nor do I want 10% of the excellence at 10% of the price. Me, I want 95% of the excellence at 25% of the price. From the number of people buying Zen-Ray ED2s etc, it would seem I am not alone.

So, should we support the totalitarian state of China by giving it our hard earned cash when we buy or new binoculars.
Pros:
It´s very very cheap.
Cons:
We support a totalitarian communist state. Perhaps we take away a job here and give it to someone in China. Good or bad?
You are asking a very loaded question. You pre-suppose that buying products from a communist country helps to support the continuation of communism. Okay, that seems intuitive enough. But is it true? Consider Cuba. Do you really imagine Castro would have been able to stay in power all this time without the misguided trade embargo of Cuba's Big Bad Neighbour?

History shows us that when people are impoverished, they generally turn to radical politics. Prime example: 1920s/early 30s Germany. I suggest to you that the best thing you can do to help dismantle communism is to buy from its people. Allow people a little money of their own, and they soon get the taste for it. I rode my motorcycle through Albania a year ago (http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159832&page=6). Albania is a former communist state whose people had been repressed for 40 years by a dictator, Enver Hoxha. They are still clearly very poor by our standards - I lost count of the number of donkey carts and goat herders - but I have never seen so much determination to move up in life. Every other 17-year-old had saved up for a power-washer and was self-employed cleaning cars. Many thirty-somethings had spent the last ten years working hard abroad and had now come back to Albania and were building or running their own hotel or shop or workshop.

Allow people a taste of the freedom to earn their own money, and they will want more. And will be willing to work hard for it. This is how America got wealthy - through Free Trade and enterprise. Free Trade does not destroy jobs, it creates them. Okay, it sometimes moves them round a bit too, but that's a free economy for you.

Do not make the British and European mistake of thinking the state sometimes knows best. It doesn't. The state never knows best. We should buy Chinese products with the confident knowledge that, not only are we getting a bargain, but we are helping the world's biggest population to move towards the wealth and freedom we ourselves largely take for granted.

[Sancho]

"Chin bins". Now there's a phrase that deserves to be more widely used.


This is a maxim much spoken (without the optics/bins reference) by retailers. I'm not sure it is always true of retailers, let alone binocular manufacturers. I myself don't want 100% of the excellence at 100% of the price (though I'm happy for those that do to indulge themselves). Nor do I want 10% of the excellence at 10% of the price. Me, I want 95% of the excellence at 25% of the price. From the number of people buying Zen-Ray ED2s etc, it would seem I am not alone.


You are asking a very loaded question. You pre-suppose that buying products from a communist country helps to support the continuation of communism. Okay, that seems intuitive enough. But is it true? Consider Cuba. Do you really imagine Castro would have been able to stay in power all this time without the misguided trade embargo of Cuba's Big Bad Neighbour?

History shows us that when people are impoverished, they generally turn to radical politics. Prime example: 1920s/early 30s Germany. I suggest to you that the best thing you can do to help dismantle communism is to buy from its people. Allow people a little money of their own, and they soon get the taste for it. I rode my motorcycle through Albania a year ago (http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159832&page=6). Albania is a former communist state whose people had been repressed for 40 years by a dictator, Enver Hoxha. They are still clearly very poor by our standards - I lost count of the number of donkey carts and goat herders - but I have never seen so much determination to move up in life. Every other 17-year-old had saved up for a power-washer and was self-employed cleaning cars. Many thirty-somethings had spent the last ten years working hard abroad and had now come back to Albania and were building or running their own hotel or shop or workshop.

Allow people a taste of the freedom to earn their own money, and they will want more. And will be willing to work hard for it. This is how America got wealthy - through Free Trade and enterprise. Free Trade does not destroy jobs, it creates them. Okay, it sometimes moves them round a bit too, but that's a free economy for you.

Do not make the British and European mistake of thinking the state sometimes knows best. It doesn't. The state never knows best. We should buy Chinese products with the confident knowledge that, not only are we getting a bargain, but we are helping the world's biggest population to move towards the wealth and freedom we ourselves largely take for granted.
:clap:

[bruleke]

We support a totalitarian communist state.

Perhaps we take away a job here and give it to someone in China. Good or bad?


What the hell are you talking about?
Dont you eat shoyu soy? Dont you use snickers? Dont you brush your teeth? Dont you have a car or your parents/relatives?

MANY things are made in China nowadays!
If you dont buy Zen-Ray, wont make a difference. You still will buy or you are already buying and using chinese products!

[spitfiretriple]

:clap:
Thank you! I thought your post #80 was pretty good too!

[Wolf Beam]

I can't say that I'm too happy about the fact that the leading economcial superpower in a few years time and in the next decades will be a nation with very limited concerns about nature, and natural values. Quite scary I would say and not exactly what this planet needs.

[SPARTACVS]

I can't say that I'm too happy about the fact that the leading economcial superpower in a few years time and in the next decades will be a nation with very limited concerns about nature, and natural values. Quite scary I would say and not exactly what this planet needs.

:clap:

Oh Big Red Box, what have you done to me...

[Matt_RTH]

History is abundantly clear with China but I also know many people very close to me who have witnessed it first hand.

1. Using prisoners and the RELATIVES of prisoners (who did no wrong) as human shields during uprisings. These uprisings occur today, as evidenced by the recent Uigher activity.
2. Between Hong Kong and China, there are several bodies of water. Several of my close relatives tell of prisoners beaten and tortured, then showing up in HK waters. These bodies are often bound extremely constrictively, to make the victim as uncomfortable as possible before cruel execution.
3. Totalitarian governments are fearful of exposure. Witness the Olympics, where much of China's pollution machine was shut down to improve air quality during the Olympics. But only during the Olympics, as the people themselves don't deserve good air quality standards, per the government. Oh, by the way, we never did see proper documentation of half of their gymnastics team being of proper age.
4. I have an uncle (in-law) who came to America to go to MIT. On return to China to work, was immediately imprisoned for treasonous acts. The prisons are very simple. Make them as far away as possible and make the prisoners subsist on what they grow. They can escape. The guards might even take pot shots at them. But they could run for a week and not get anywhere. Death from exposure is inevitable.
5. Many of China's rivers are filled with human waste, as their values for manufacturing pollution differ little from their sense of hygiene and sanitation.
6. "Collateral damage" from natural disasters means less people to deal with. Safety for people in areas prone to these is of little concern. Witness the thwarting of the media in reporting on the earthquake that killed scores of children in school. Floods and typhoons also factor in.

Oh yes, the world is sleeping with the Devil when it comes to China. And with much of the world's _finite_ wealth going there, their oppressive ways might just extend past their citizens, to the rest of the world.

All of these are comments about the government only.

[Kammerdiner]

For the foreseeable future, consumption will be a moral issue. It is a bit self-serving to suggest that money and free markets will eventually liberate the Chinese people, especially when you're gobbling up Chin bins (I like that neologism myself), while the Chinese people and environment are paying a horrendous price for it.

It's a bit like saying that slavery in America and the wholesale destruction of American forests was just capitalist growing pains, a necessary stage in the cycle of economic development. After all, you might say, the slaves were eventually freed, the forests eventually recovered, and now we all live in the country with three pairs of Zens for less than the price of a single alpha! Well, God Bless America.

I have thought about getting a Zen myself, and the fact is I own a Chinese bin already. But when I think of the Zen, I also think of this: when you buy an alpha you know that nothing toxic went out the factory's back door into the nearest river, and you know the folks who designed and put the thing together can probably support their families and live without too much fear of environment-related cancers.

There is no economic necessity for the Chinese to treat their workers like slaves and destroy their environment. It's a business decision, and something we should all be cognizant of while we ponder yet another, and let's face it largely unnecessary, purchase.

I'm always amazed when the Sierra Club (and plenty of others) hit me up for more money with the promise of a cheap Chinese-made rucksack or whatever in return. You can't have your environment and eat it too.

Mark

[John M Robinson]

Cause a set of ZR 10x43 ed's less than a year old just sold for $310 on ebay (67% of retail) and another like new set is on there now for $329 "buy it now"..... Come on man! Really! Are you gonna fight this battle! Are you gonna step up and tell me something that is less than a year old and has already depreciated this much is going to have any lasting value 5 to 10 years down the road! You really going to go there! Like all of a sudden this Chinese made bin is going to start to appreciate and be worth more down the road! Wake up! Its a throw-a-way bin that will have ZERO value in 10 years! 0% of retail = zero dollars in worth!
Have fun throwing your money away!

sorry about the rant..... just hate to see people that can't see value and try to argue retail..... I've been here for over twenty years and it just works me up sometimes:smoke:

Jeeze CL,

I read a lot of what you write and usually agree with you, but it seems to me that you are making a lot of assumptions that may or may not be true. I just bought a used, made in Japan double barrel shotgun that was considered a cheap alternative to US and Belgium made guns back when it was made in 1969. It cost $225.00 new and I got it for a steal at $1,100.00. Who knows how Zen rays will be perceived in the next few decades, they could be out of business in a few years, they could morph into a cheap Tasco- Wallmart brand or they could put all of their focus and resourses into becoming the best optical company in the world.

You also assume that Zen doesn't have a US based R&D department. I don't know if they do or don't, but the product they have offered up to date sure seems well designed. Maybe they just reverse engineered Swaro or Zeiss, I don't know and neither do you. As a guy who used to work in the R&D department of a US based manufacturing company that fairly rapidly had to move production to Asia, or go out of business, I can appreciate the delema the American founder of Zen Ray was in, when he dreamed up a business plan for offering the highest quality optics at an affordable price. What would you do when the Japanese played hardball or didn't play at all? Give up your idea, or find some one, somewhere that would work with you?

Now I'm a big fan of Leica, I own or have owned a Leitz 7x35, Leica CRF 900 and my 8x42 Ultravids, I also like my Nikon SEs, but I wouldn't hold my nose if somebody offered me a 7x36 Zen Ray.

One last point, those of us on this forum would be considered mentally ill by the general public if they knew how much money we spend on binoculars, there are many, perhaps the majority of outdoor enthusiast who couldn't and wouldn't dream of spending the cost of a used car on a pair of binoculars. These Zen Rays, even if they are worthless in five years (which I doubt), are a wonderful deal for the up and coming birder who's previous choice was optically crappy, cheap Chinese optics or nothing. Sorry for my rant, but I really don't think you would be throwing your money away by buying the Zen Rays. I would hate to see them put any of the other ("good") optical companies out of business, my take is that this new competition could tweak S, L or Z into being slightly more competetive.

John

[kristoffer]

What the hell are you talking about?
Dont you eat shoyu soy? Dont you use snickers? Dont you brush your teeth? Dont you have a car or your parents/relatives?

MANY things are made in China nowadays!
If you dont buy Zen-Ray, wont make a difference. You still will buy or you are already buying and using chinese products!

Yes, I know that it is impossible to avoid buying stuff made in China. Even if the "made in" label says otherwise, it is a big probabilty that the material might originate in China.

My opening statement in this thread was just discussion topics, not necessarily what I personaly belive. I had noticed that this topic was present in a lot of other threads and therefor I feel the need of having this discussion here rather then elsewhere.

One thing I find interesting is that Nikon Monarchs, some (all?) of Vortex bins and many many more are also made in China with the RD in USA or Japan, just like Zen. They, however, have dodged this bullet and is not associated with China, at this forum atleast.

[bruleke]

One thing I find interesting is that Nikon Monarchs, some (all?) of Vortex bins and many many more are also made in China with the RD in USA or Japan, just like Zen. They, however, have dodged this bullet and is not associated with China, at this forum atleast.

Really?
I didnt know that!

I read again my post... sorry if I said in a way that made you feel angry about my comment!

There's a good example about the interesting thing you found: Macbooks (the Apple's notebooks).

Many people wants them, many people desire them. But look... they are made in China and NO ONE complains about it!

It seems that if a BIG company has its products made in China, no one really cares. The products are excelent, anyway.
But if a small or new company has its products made in China, everyone complains about the "China quality control".
Isnt that weird?

[NWBirder]

Nikon Monarch is made in China. They may even share the same optics as Vixen or other brands, just with different rubber cover and label.

found a link in another forum.

http://www.metwhich.com/English/Index.asp

[kristoffer]

No, don´t worry, not angry at all :) Just wanted to make sure what the purpose of the thread is.

Really?
I didnt know that!

I read again my post... sorry if I said in a way that made you feel angry about my comment!

[kristoffer]

Nikon Monarch is made in China. They may even share the same optics as Vixen or other brands, just with different rubber cover and label.

found a link in another forum.

http://www.metwhich.com/English/Index.asp

Yes, so start to bash Nikon too. Or perhaps not CLRobles, you love the SE? (From the company who produce some stuff in China). ;)

[HoosierGuy]

There's a Hawke Frontier ED 8x43 discussion on the "other" forum. Some one posted picks of the case. It looks very similar to the case that came with my Zen-Ray's. It's obvious to me the case came from the same factory. I saw a Promaster at the mall a few months ago. Focus knob cap looks like the cap on my Zen-Ray. Ugh, as big as China is only one factory is able to make binoculars? Disappointing.

[jaymoynihan]

... totalitarian communist state...

I just started reading this thread, and will have to do so in pieces.
Anyway, it will probably seem pedantic but;

It is not uncommon for countries to call themselves something they are not.;)

The People's Republic of China refers to itself as "communist" but it is not.

Communism is a variant of socialism, and is therefore an economic concept, not a description of government or rule, technically, in and of itself.

Given their behavior/current practices, they are also not economically "communist", they are a relatively new form of capitalism.
Some would call it state capitalism, state corporatism, what ever. History will probably need more temporal distance to assign a good name for their economic form.

As far as "government" goes, I do think totalitarian would suffice, though given the policy and ownership melding there, it possibly could be simply (technically) be referred to as fascist, in the classic sense of the word. :t:

[spitfiretriple]

Someone, I think it may have been Jim Rogers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Rogers), coined the word, "statist". It describes a system of government where the government has, and wields, far too much power. I will concede that these days it's probably a better word to describe China than "communist".

Did you know that two thirds of the world's coal mining deaths (http://www.michigandaily.com/content/chinese-coal-mines-prove-perilous) take place in China? Well, on the face of it, that's a shocking statistic. But how many of us know how much coal mining goes on in China? I checked the figures. Different sources have different numbers, but China is currently mining around half the world's coal. Should we really therefore be surprised that so many coal mining deaths happen in China? Especially when you factor in the inevitably lower experience levels, and lower safety standards of a developing economy, compared to the next biggest producer, the US, with all its automation. Or the third producer, Australia. Furthermore, most coal mining in China is not open-cast (surface) mining but deep mining. It is inherently more dangerous.

Chinese wages may seem low by our standards, but let's remember: no-one is forced to work in a Chinese binocular factory. Or any other factory. They go to work in the factory because the conditions and pay are better than the paddy fields. In Britain we look back in pity on the poor poor people who worked in the factories and down the mines, while quite envying the romantic life of the farm worker. We are kidding ourselves. In Victorian Britain people left the land in their millions because they could make a better life for themselves in the city. China is no different.

As for allegations of torture and illegal killing, well, let's be careful. China is not the only country kidnapping people and detaining them illegally... Nor is China the only country regularly killing innocent people.

As for allegations of pollution, well as I understand it (and I'm happy to be corrected by someone in possession of facts) the average Chinese person produces a lot less pollution than the average westerner.

Let's be careful throwing stones; most of us on here live in a greenhouse. (US: glasshouse?)

[kristoffer]

Sorry, not really. As you see their emissions increase rapidly, and soon they will pass us in Sweden, and they are 165 times our population.

Carbon dioxide emissions (ton) per capita

2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006


Sweden 5.7, 6.4, 6.1, 6, 5.7, 5.6

China 2.7, 2.9, 3.4, 3.9, 4.3, 4.6

Source: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/carbondioxide.html

As for allegations of pollution, well as I understand it (and I'm happy to be corrected by someone in possession of facts) the average Chinese person produces a lot less pollution than the average westerner.

Let's be careful throwing stones; most of us on here live in a greenhouse. (US: glasshouse?)

[spitfiretriple]

Fair enough, you're Swedish, but I didn't say the average Swede, I said the average westerner. I suspect you got your figures the same place I did (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_ capita)

China is a long, long way down that list. 96th place!


Okay, China may be moving up the list fast, fair enough, it's industrialising from a peasant economy. But I suggest it will be a long long time before we can justifiably justify(!) buying binoculars elsewhere because of concerns over Chinese pollution.

[jaymoynihan]

Interesting thread......a few comments.

As others have said, it is very hard to avoid products made in the PRC. Some have tried and written articles about it. I think there is at least one book on the subject.
It is also very hard not to contribute to the economic well being of PRC as a fascist state, since with the extremely complex inter-lockings of capital markets, materials/commodities markets etc., just about any large company now has some form of relationship with them.

This subject comes up often in the online astronomy forums, such as Cloudynights. PRC companies have invaded that hobby equipment area also. I bought my first apochromatic refractor (Orion 80mm ED) a number of years ago. It was made in the PRC. It also showcased how far commercial optical fabrication had advanced there.

Re "innovation". I guess i do not see that as a Rimcultures v Eurocultures thing. In binoculars for example, the last to "innovations i can think of where phase coating for roofs (Zeiss 1987), and perhaps the open barrell design (Swarvoski). ED or APO-ish glass is not something new, it being a holy grail in astronomy for years (Takahashi then many others...). The first "ED" bino was I think Celestron, with the 9.5x44 model in the late 1980's. It was made in Japan.

The most important aspect for quality (assuming the entire instrument is not made "in house", which does not happen anymore i think) is what does the name manufacturer spec for parts order, and what tolerances are contracted for? Those can probably be met now in any industrialized country.

Also, the place of origin question is complicated by parts gathered from one or more places, and assembled in another place. The later is the made in X label.

As far as binos go, (and please feel free to correct me, this is based only on my casual/memory)

Assembled in U.S.: Higher end Leupolds.

Literally made in Japan: Swift Eaglets & Audubons. Maybe Kowa.

Assembled in Japan: Nikon, possibly Kowa.

Made in Europe. Not terribly familiar with all the euro brands. The big three do not do everything "in house" anymore. Zeiss has Schott (spelling?) glass of course, but Schott contracts with Japan & Taiwan i have heard in the astro and camera world, so who knows. Swaro has its own glass foundry if i remember correctly, with their main gig being fine cyrstal.

Safe to say, Assembled in Europe or Canada (some Leica):
Zeiss, Leica, Swarovski.

Another wild card is the Taiwanese optics industry which has quite an under the radar business and high quality. Most of their product is assembled elsewhere into finished optical instruments.

Complicating things furture is sometimes the optical elements come into the PRC, where they are assembled.

[falcondude]

If we don't have high quality binoculars from China, like Hawke Froniter, Zen ED, RSPB HD, Nikon Monarch X, or Vortex/Eagle Optics, 99% of people will be stuck with the real junk coming out of that country, while the other 1% probably will pay extra 20-50% more due to the monopoly from German/Austrian binos without competition to keep price in check.

[Sancho]

I know this started about binoculars, but it´s gone far beyond that. China spent the last few hundred years being invaded, carved up, opiumed-up, exploited and robbed by the major "Western" powers (including Russia and Japan). In the last little invasion-session, it lost 18% of its population. I really think the average Chinese would find it vaguely amusing to hear "westerners" pontificating and sermonising about China joining the inter-global economy and actually selling us stuff we really, really want to buy cheap. And the sanctimonious stuff about human or labour rights in China is fascinating....what about minerals from South America, or Diamonds from Africa? Are these produced under the kind of labour conditions we approve of? Or does child slavery, torture and murder of union activists, environmental destruction and denial of basic human rights only outrage us if it happens in an economy that can compete with us on equal terms? Rant over.

[Pileatus]

The Chinese are devastating their land, water and air in order to "advance" their economy. That makes sense.

[RJM]

Well to be fair, except for a brief period of statistical "rollbacks" North American enviromental pollution has steadily increased year on year. I think the old cliche, "those who live in glass houses should not throw stones" is very apt concerning most of the opinions of Western moral, economic, political superiority over those of the Chinese being expressed in this thread. Ironic since I'd wager 99% of posters have never even been to China or even Asia. The one lone post by a person actually living in China was barely even acknowledged.

[Pileatus]

Well to be fair, except for a brief period of statistical "rollbacks" North American enviromental pollution has steadily increased year on year. I think the old cliche, "those who live in glass houses should not throw stones" is very apt concerning most of the opinions of Western moral, economic, political superiority over those of the Chinese being expressed in this thread. Ironic since I'd wager 99% of posters have never even been to China or even Asia. The one lone post by a person actually living in China was barely even acknowledged.
It's not a question of superiority. It's a matter of conscience. We have cheap consumer products because much of the real cost of production has been deliberately hidden, buried in poisoned land, rivers and unbreathable air. I get a cheap binocular and someone else dies an early death. Trust me, there is no moral superiority in that equation.

John

[RJM]

I thought East Asians have a higher lifer expectancy than North Americans? Maybe instead of making cheap bino's they should stop making really cheap chicken McNuggets and McRibs?

[Pileatus]

I thought East Asians have a higher lifer expectancy than North Americans? Maybe instead of making cheap bino's they should stop making really cheap chicken McNuggets and McRibs?
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/26/world/asia/26china.html?pagewanted=print

"Nearly 500 million people lack access to safe drinking water."

"Only 1 percent of the country’s 560 million city dwellers breathe air considered safe by the European Union."

"Environmental woes that might be considered catastrophic in some countries can seem commonplace in China: industrial cities where people rarely see the sun; children killed or sickened by lead poisoning or other types of local pollution; a coastline so swamped by algal red tides that large sections of the ocean no longer sustain marine life."

"Chinese manufacturers that dump waste into rivers or pump smoke into the sky make the cheap products that fill stores in the United States and Europe"

Please don't question the source or factual nature of this article. Numerous sources are available and the facts are undeniable.

John

[RJM]

Sounds like Houston in my home state of TX!

[ceasar]

The "Dark Satanic Mills" move around and are replaced by other dangers in their stead. Here in the Rust Belt the newest threat is to our drinking water caused by the exploration (or is that "exploitation?") of the Marcellus Shale natural gas belt, which runs through most of Pennsylvania, including "Cloudy Valley." This is being done, not surprisingly, in the cause of saving the environment. It is projected to lower our collective "carbon footprint."

Even in Iowa, Corn Bread Basket of our country, the potable water supply is in danger.

http://iowaindependent.com/19046/report-says-herbicide-levels-in-iowa-drinking-water-are-dangerous

"Greater love hath no man than to poison himself for his brother." There is much irony in the name "Love Canal."

Sleep well,:cat:
Bob

[jaymoynihan]

A position of moral superiority is a fragile thing to stand upon.

China is pretty much doing what the United States did in the 2nd half of the 19th century and first half of the 20th. We forget that British & French capital flowed to America in the 19th century fueling the destruction of the landscape and natural capital services. And, in a way, what Euroasia did with more limited technologies for a couple hundred years.

The current negative impact of U.S. & European lifestyles on the biogeophysical infrastructure of the planet is massive. I have no sympathy for the PRC's fascist government, nor the rampant destruction of their lands. But it seems to me all too familiar to allow my feeling morally on a higher plain.

[Kammerdiner]

As John said: there's really no moral superiority involved. It's a simple question of what you want to contribute to.

And what's the point of all these historical analogues? It was wrong then, and it's wrong now. If you want to contribute to that, fine. At least acknowledge that's what you're doing, and acknowledge that it's not inevitable, that humans make choices, and that we could all get along just fine with a single pair of binoculars if need be.

If a position of moral superiority is fragile, then a position of self-serving rationalization can only self-destruct.

[John M Robinson]

Is it a rationalization to believe that the end result of the Chinese economic growth and domination in the global arena, will be a westernizing of their culture and economic practices along the lines the Japanese took? When I was a kid Japan was very impoverished following WW II, and was able to produce stuff much more cheaply than here in the US. Over the years Japan became more and more dominant and as they did, their workers became more prosperous middle class consumers, demanding higher wages and better working conditions. I believe that the only hope for China or any third world country to become more enviromentally conscience or for them to be able to afford being envriromentally conscience. Now whither it is good for the west politically to give up it's economic domination to the Chinese for the good of world health is another question.

Maybe it's less of a rationalization than a nievety on my part, but that's what I believe.

John

[Kammerdiner]

I'll grant that China may well get through this economic stage to something better (it's not yet a given, however). My concern is that we tend to see what's happening as the ONLY way towards progress: first you ruin everything, then, with all the money you've made, you try to repair some of the damage. And of course, as Europe and North America know too well, most of what you lost ain't never coming back. You live with the remains.

First, I believe it's not the only way for developing countries to prosper (there appears to be a substantial rural counter-movement in places like India, for instance). Second, I do think it's tempting to say this model of progress is unavoidable, and then, presumably with a clean conscience, go on a shopping binge.

I've succumbed to that myself; I just won't let myself off the hook.

Mark

[jaymoynihan]

...And what's the point of all these historical analogues? It was wrong then, and it's wrong now. If you want to contribute to that, fine. At least acknowledge that's what you're doing, and acknowledge that it's not inevitable, that humans make choices, and that we could all get along just fine with a single pair of binoculars ...

Given the reference to "historical analogues..", i assume it is related to my last post.

"...what's the point of all these historical analogues?"

Perspective.

"It was wrong then, and it's wrong now."

Yes

"If you want to contribute to that, fine. At least acknowledge that's what you're doing,"

I contribute little to it in the "bird toys" area of my life, but i certainly do in other areas. And, given the intergrated, economy, it is not a matter of choice for the most part, if i am still to work etc.

"...and acknowledge that it's not inevitable"

It is not inevitable.

"we could all get along just fine with a single pair of binoculars "

True, :-C;)

[Sancho]

I think the old cliche, "those who live in glass houses should not throw stones" is very apt concerning most of the opinions of Western moral, economic, political superiority over those of the Chinese being expressed in this thread. Ironic since I'd wager 99% of posters have never even been to China or even Asia. The one lone post by a person actually living in China was barely even acknowledged.
Good point. And I´m not arguing that there is no environmental destruction in China, or that its human rights record is spotless. No-one´s is. We´ve all contributed to screwing up the planet, and we´ve all got dirt and blood on our hands one way or another. I have lived in China (in the past) for a number of years, and certainly I didn´t like the air in the cities. I lived in New York too and wasn´t crazy about the air there either. And for most of my life the air in Dublin was foul. Poverty? Human Rights abuses? Doesn´t matter where you live. Just look around you , folks, or scratch the surface and you´ll find the same. You sure the slums and jails in your country aren´t predominantly populated by one ethnic group? You sure there aren´t some native peoples in your country who claim land was robbed from them? You sure democracy in your country isn´t denied to some, or heavily compromised by Supercapitalism? You sure Superbusiness Inc. in your country isn´t screwing up the air, or the water, or the land? So why criticise China ´cos they produce cheap binoculars? You sure the guarantee of our oil supplies isn´t leading to massive human rights abuses in many countries? There is absolutely no proof whatsoever that Chinese-produced binoculars have caused any destruction, or infringement of basic labour rights. But there is plenty of evidence that the copper we buy from Bolivia, or the Coffee from just about anywhere, or the Diamonds from Africa, and much else we take for granted, are produced in inhumane conditions. The only way to try to improve the lot of the planet, the Chinese people and by extension the peoples of the world, is to co-operate with them, as they are eager to do, rather than preaching at them. They are not a newly-arrived "developing" society, they were an advanced civilisation when most of us were still barbarians. Have a look this coming October 1st. Through your Zen-Rays or your Leicas or your Vortexes, whatever.