Chinese Optics

[Pileatus]

While you're blabbering on BF, the Chinese are building a modern economy.

http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/news/2004(4-6)/news040416c.htm

Excerpt...
"During the three days of the conference, more than seven hundreds of papers were to be presented, which are related to new areas such as laser technology, remote sensing technology, and quantum information technology"

This event was in 2004 so maybe you missed it. I can't speak for the folks at Zen, Hawke, or Promaster but I'm quite certain their R&D consists primarily of picking numbers from a Chinese optical menu. Do you really think Eagle Optics R&D department pulled all-nighters to develop the Atlas look-alike? No, they made some phone calls and maybe someone went to China...to pick numbers from a Chinese optical menu. If I'm wrong, please let me know.

The Zen isn't good because of Zen; it's good because the Chinese know how to make a binocular. Zen, Hawke, and Eagle Optics can request modifications (as Zen recently did in a timely manner) that can improve the final product. The optics, I'd venture to say, are designed and manufactured solely by Chinese optical engineers. A long time ago many of my best students were Chinese, especially my teaching assistants. Trust me when I tell you they were deadly serious about their academic endeavors.

John

[shaocaholica]

Thats why most of the really good ones work in the west, where the pay is better.

As for optical menus, the Japanese do it too. Cosina/Tamron/etc has and still makes low to high end optical products for the big Japanese camera companies. I'm sure they'll even design and make you a set of binos if you asked (and paid).

[SG6]

I think that we have pre built a conception of the quality being low for everything out of China. It may have started out but has undoubtly improved in various areas, probably specialist areas, over time.

I have an interest in Astronomy and one of the best refractors is produced by TMB, Tom Back in the US. However the lens are designed and produced in Russia. Since it cannot be a question of production costs, the numbers are too low, so cannot someone in the US produce the lens to a similar quality? Nearly all main stream scopes are now Chinese/Taiwanese produced. Lots of features and good quality.

I would say that yes there are areas where the quality is lacking but it is still a case of you get what you pay for, and no doubt there are chinese factories that are producing good grade optics, but they won't be the cheapest. They will not be selling a $20 lens for $5.

I suspect very highly that there are a lot of chinese optics in binoculars that do not carry anything that implies "Made in China" on them.

Years ago Japanese cars were considered a bit of a joke, not any longer. Japanese motor bikes have gone down the same route.

Look at the present situation with Hyundai and Kia cars - they offer 7 years servicing with the car. Any American or European car maker doing the same?

[Sancho]

A long time ago many of my best students were Chinese, especially my teaching assistants. Trust me when I tell you they were deadly serious about their academic endeavors.

John
I can second this. I taught in China in the eighties and nineties, and since then in four other countries for comparison. There is nothing, repeat nothing, like a classroom full of Chinese students....they want to lap up knowledge and their desire to achieve is phenomenal. This is why, in the 21 years since I first taught there, China has moved from being a third-rate producer, to being the world´s third largest exporter. Complaining about Chinese exports sounds very like Roman commentators towards their Empire´s demise, sneering at the advance of the Huns and the Vandals. All joking aside, the future is Chinese.

[Steve C]

I can't speak for the folks at Zen, Hawke, or Promaster but I'm quite certain their R&D consists primarily of picking numbers from a Chinese optical menu. Do you really think Eagle Optics R&D department pulled all-nighters to develop the Atlas look-alike? No, they made some phone calls and maybe someone went to China...to pick numbers from a Chinese optical menu. If I'm wrong, please let me know.
John

You are quite likely correct. I think the pick-it-off-the-menu vs design-it-by-yourself binocular probably runs the gamut from just having the OEM simply put "Joe's Binocular" label on a totally off the shelf glass to a pretty much in house design that is contracted to the particular OEM. Vortex and Leupold have varying capacities to design the whole binocular, while others may have to pick from the menu. How much influence they might have with the OEM is likely directly proportional to the predicted sales volume that can be generated.

Now for Zen Ray, Charles is a UCLA educated Opto/Mechanical Engineer who is probably quite capable of starting with a blank computer screen and producing a design. You are more than likely correct in the assessment that he did not design the ZEN ED. Especially since it was the third of the four clones that have showed up. Promaster and Hawke beat him to the punch. What that education does is enable him to pick existing designs and companies that can be worked with within the parameters of the design to produce "similar but different" binoculars. How much of the work he does with the engineers at the OEM can be made "his" is likely contractual in nature, and again dependent upon how many dollars he is capable of generating. The more a company can sell, the more clout with the OEM they will have.

So we have, from Zen Ray labels, a faster focus rate, dielectric prism coatings, and a x36mm compact. At some level that is R&D and at some level that R&D is done by Z-R, since they were the first company to request it and see it through to manufacture.

What Atlas/EO did with the Intrepid or what Hawke and Promaster may or may not do is an open question I guess.

[Fireform]

You've hit the nail squarely upon the head, I'm sure. Zen is little more than an importer who knows what to ask for.

[CLRobles]

You've hit the nail squarely upon the head, I'm sure. Zen is little more than an importer who knows what to ask for.
100% right! And who knows how long they will be here to boot! :flyaway:

[shaocaholica]

You've hit the nail squarely upon the head, I'm sure. Zen is little more than an importer who knows what to ask for.

But just being that has caused them to get pretty popular around here so its clearly an untapped segment of the market. The end result is what counts, not so much how you get there. Perhaps we should praise the OEM mfg in China instead of ZR? If ZR goes away, I'm sure that other company in China will still be around willing to sell to the next ZR.

[dustyview]

Hold on CL.... Vortex did the same thing, and they seemed to have gained real market share. :t:


100% right! And who knows how long they will be here to boot! :flyaway:

[Fireform]

At the very least, it's enough to make a person wonder what a "lifetime warranty" means when it refers, as on the Zen website, to the oh-so-vague "lifetime of the product." Does it mean that the warranty lapses when the product is discontinued? My impression is that "the lifetime of the product" means whatever they say it means at any given time, and likely nothing if the importer goes under.

The western expectation that you'll be able to send your Leicas, Zeisses, Leupold or even Nikons in 10, 20, or even 30 years after you bought them and get them properly refurbished is very unlikely to apply to a product like this, IMO, lifetime warranty or no.

[ceasar]

.................................. All joking aside, the future is Chinese.

Demographic issues; not manufacturing and trade, will determine if your prediction will come true!:smoke:
Bob

[shaocaholica]

The western expectation that you'll be able to send your Leicas, Zeisses, Leupold or even Nikons in 10, 20, or even 30 years after you bought them and get them properly refurbished is very unlikely to apply to a product like this, IMO, lifetime warranty or no.

When was the last time you heard of anyone sending in their "Leicas, Zeisses, Leupold or even Nikons" from the 70s/80s back for repairs recently? How many things do you own that are more than 10 years old and still qualify for a "lifetime warranty"? If you do have some stuff that qualifies, do you really care about that stuff still?

IMO, lifetime means "as long as the company is still around, we'll fix it or replace it". But I would think that 99.9% of people simply forget about it at some point.

[CLRobles]

When was the last time you heard of anyone sending in their "Leicas, Zeisses, Leupold or even Nikons" from the 70s/80s back for repairs recently? How many things do you own that are more than 10 years old and still qualify for a "lifetime warranty"? If you do have some stuff that qualifies, do you really care about that stuff still?

IMO, lifetime means "as long as the company is still around, we'll fix it or replace it". But I would think that 99.9% of people simply forget about it at some point.
I have sent many 10 yo + swaros back! mostly for user error that caused damage and they have always been serviced very quickly and have yet to be charged!

[CLRobles]

Hold on CL.... Vortex did the same thing, and they seemed to have gained real market share. :t:
True but they are still very young and their market share is very, very small.... But they do have a toe hold and should be commended for their business model.... but look at their prices!!!! They have steadily risen.... have you seen the price on their new 15x56 (which looks just like a Swaro by the way).... $1200! You can get a Docter Optic 15x60 for $1100.... So much for low prices of the start-ups :eek!:

[Fireform]

When was the last time you heard of anyone sending in their "Leicas, Zeisses, Leupold or even Nikons" from the 70s/80s back for repairs recently? How many things do you own that are more than 10 years old and still qualify for a "lifetime warranty"? If you do have some stuff that qualifies, do you really care about that stuff still?

IMO, lifetime means "as long as the company is still around, we'll fix it or replace it". But I would think that 99.9% of people simply forget about it at some point.

Gentlemen, I give you exhibit A.

A "lifetime warranty" is not a set of pretty words meant to entice buyers. I have every expectation that the lifetime warranty on my Zeiss FLs will be in effect indefinitely, and that it will cover whatever the bins require. Swarovski owners know that if anything goes wrong with them, Swaro will make it right, period. Leupold is famous for repairing, reconditioning or replacing any golden ring product they are sent, regardless of how old they are or who originally bought it. I've sent Nikon optics in for warranty service and reconditioning on several occasions long, long after the purchase and had them returned like new. That is what a lifetime warranty means. Consumers most certainly do not "simply forget about it."

I doubt very much that this will be the deal with the Zens. For one thing, neither the manufacturer nor the importer has any experience with such warranties. For another, what do you mean by "the company"? The importer, Zen-Ray itself? Do they have the stock and facilities to continue maintaining these bins 10 or 20 years down the road? I seriously doubt that. And the anonymous company in China that actually builds the bins--we don't even know for sure who they are. Can they be relied upon to honor a warranty if they disband after a few years of production, or simply decide 10 years from now that doing so isn't profitable anymore? I doubt that too.

Don't get me wrong. The Chinese are not making junk and passing it off as gold--despite the trashy accessories we've seen so far, the instruments themselves are superb for the money. But I do have qualms, like this one, about buying from China. You can't tell me that the consumer is as secure buying from some nameless factory with no history in a communist country as they are dealing with companies that have been in business since before WWI. That's not credible.

[Sancho]

Gentlemen, I give you exhibit A.

A "lifetime warranty" is not a set of pretty words meant to entice buyers. I have every expectation that the lifetime warranty on my Zeiss FLs will be in effect indefinitely, and that it will cover whatever the bins require. Swarovski owners know that if anything goes wrong with them, Swaro will make it right, period. Leupold is famous for repairing, reconditioning or replacing any golden ring product they are sent, regardless of how old they are or who originally bought it. I've sent Nikon optics in for warranty service and reconditioning on several occasions long, long after the purchase and had them returned like new. That is what a lifetime warranty means. Consumers most certainly do not "simply forget about it."

I doubt very much that this will be the deal with the Zens. For one thing, neither the manufacturer nor the importer has any experience with such warranties. For another, what do you mean by "the company"? The importer, Zen-Ray itself? Do they have the stock and facilities to continue maintaining these bins 10 or 20 years down the road? I seriously doubt that. And the anonymous company in China that actually builds the bins--we don't even know for sure who they are. Can they be relied upon to honor a warranty if they disband after a few years of production, or simply decide 10 years from now that doing so isn't profitable anymore? I doubt that too.

Don't get me wrong. The Chinese are not making junk and passing it off as gold--despite the trashy accessories we've seen so far, the instruments themselves are superb for the money. But I do have qualms, like this one, about buying from China. You can't tell me that the consumer is as secure buying from some nameless factory with no history in a communist country as they are dealing with companies that have been in business since before WWI. That's not credible.
This is true. So it boils down to a matter of consumer choice that has existed with all technologies for ages....Buy a superb product, very expensive, to include superb after-sales service (Rolls-Royce), or buy an excellent, more affordable product that won´t last as long, and that you may need to replace in the mid-term (Ford, Toyota...). The difference with these new Chinese Optics is that although the price is "mid-range", the quality by all accounts if very close to "alpha". It´s really just a matter of choice, and like many bino-users, the new Chinese binos make it a realistic proposition to cover both bases....one pair of expensive "alphas", plus a pair of Chinese super-bins as "back-up", or in a different configuration. What Chinese Optics have done for us now is to give us greater consumer choice, which is what Free Trade Capitalism was supposed to be all about, no?

[Fireform]

To a point, that is indeed what free markets give us. I take exception, though, to the likelihood that these bins are being sold with a "lifetime warranty" that is not a lifetime warranty in the sense understood by their customers. That is deceptive, and it wasn't done by Toyota or Volkswagen.

I have a pair of 7x36 ED2s on order myself, mainly because nothing like their optical spec is offered by the alphas. A bright, compact, waterproof optic with 477' of view is tough for a woodland hunter to turn down. But the fecus in the Chinese punchbowl is their lingering contempt for contracts, intellectual property rights, patents and western ethics generally. Until convinced otherwise, I look upon their warranty as not worth the paper it's written on.

[shaocaholica]

To a point, that is indeed what free markets give us. I take exception, though, to the likelihood that these bins are being sold with a "lifetime warranty" that is not a lifetime warranty in the sense understood by their customers.

But the fecus in the Chinese punchbowl is their lingering contempt for contracts, intellectual property rights, patents and western ethics generally. Until convinced otherwise, I look upon their warranty as not worth the paper it's written on.

Firstly, the notion that "lifetime warranty" will entail the repairing or replacement of a product while the company (in this case, Zen) is still around applies to all companies. In 10 years, if Zen is still around, I would expect them to honor their lifetime warranty on your or mine ED2s. Don't forget, Zen is an American company with a Chinese supplier. Guess what, a ton of American companies are including some very reputable ones.

In contrast, if any company goes under, how can you expect them to do anything at that point? I'm sure there are tons of very very nice western products sold with lifetime warranties that can no longer be honored not because the company is bad but because its simply gone. You can't expect service after those circumstances. Do the alphas have trust funds or something in case they go under there is still a resource available to fund service? Even Zeiss has got its hands into supplying many now dead companies. Look at Rollei camera and Contax camera both who used Zeiss lenses. Do you think Zeiss will service those lenses today when those companies perished decades ago despite those lenses bear a prominent Zeiss name?

I think Zen is surely entitled to offer their lifetime warranty. Your qualms with it are a bit baseless though. You can't just say that if a company gets its products manufactured in China, they can't offer a lifetime warranty. Whats the logic behind that? I think this is an issue that is company specific and must be looked at per company. Zen is a new company and I'm sure its owners don't intend for it to fail but they cannot guarantee that nor can any other company. What they can do is offer full service while they are still around and thats about all they can do to assure you. What more can they do to earn your trust realistically?

Also bear in mind this. I asked Charles of ZR if he could send me another pair of ZRS binos so I could compare their ER and pick the one that was more comfortable. I told him to charge me for both and I'll take a shipping/restocking hit on the pair I didn't want. However, he just sent me a pair without asking for a penny and told me to send back the one I didn't want in trust. I think thats more than I could ask for from a start up with no history. Zen is building its reputation right now and you are part of it. Yes you can always say it doesn't have any past service history but I wouldn't so far as to make baseless assumptions about its future.

[kristoffer]

With the high performance and quality of Zen Ray´s products along with their low prices compared with how Swaro, Leica etc. keep raising the price of their bins I would not worry about Zen Ray going bankrupt and fail to meet their guarantee claims. I would on the contrary be more worried about other company's. Zen Ray takes honest market shares with a high quality product for a low price. The others have to adept or fail. It seems like ZR got the future ahead of them. Now just make a scope version of the ed2 ;)

[fugl]

With the high performance and quality of Zen Ray´s products along with their low prices compared with how Swaro, Leica etc. keep raising the price of their bins I would not worry about Zen Ray going bankrupt and fail to meet their guarantee claims. I would on the contrary be more worried about other company's. Zen Ray takes honest market shares with a high quality product for a low price. The others have to adept or fail. It seems like ZR got the future ahead of them. Now just make a scope version of the ed2 ;)

Mere whistling in the dark. Companies as legal entities responsible for such things as warranties come & go, even big well-established ones like Nikon or Zeiss much less tiny outfits with little in the way of physical assets like Zen-Ray. If a binocular or spotting scope pleases you & you have the money to spend, by all means buy it. With luck, if it should need servicing down the road, the company will still be around to take core of it for you. If not.....? That's what capitalism & limited liability companies are all about--everybody takes his chances.

[Fireform]

The logic of my question is perfectly clear: what value is a warranty for the "lifetime of the product"? You don't seem to know how to answer the question, or to understand what a lifetime warranty is, so I don't see how you can affirm the value of the Zen's warranty.

One could think that it means that the warranty is good until the product goes out of production, or frankly one could just as easily argue that the lifetime of a product ends when it fails. The one thing that is beyond question at this point is that their warranty is unproven.

[shaocaholica]

The logic of my question is perfectly clear: what value is a warranty for the "lifetime of the product"? You don't seem to know how to answer the question, or to understand what a lifetime warranty is, so I don't see how you can affirm the value of the Zen's warranty.

Alright, I just went there and read the wording. I'm not sure what is really binding, the wording on the website or the piece of paper that comes with the product. In either case, "lifetime of the product" means to me, "as long as its still in production or the company still has some stock". From my personal experience with ZR, I would personally trust them to replace a product with a newer model if its out of production as long as the defect is indeed not user error. But thats my personal take. Yes, I don't expect ZRs $400 binos to have the same level of service as $1400+ binos but I also don't really care since, like I said, I can pay out of pocket for replacements/upgrades many times over before I hit the price of a single alpha bino.

Edit:
Also, look at all the cheap cutting edge technology around you. Your PC, your iPod, your digital camera. Those items don't come with uber warranties either. Why? Because they know they will be obsolete within a short time window and they really don't need to keep them in service beyond that window. I personally would rather have cheaper warranties, faster revisions and cheaper prices rather than more robust warranties, slower revisions and higher prices. But hey, thats just me. If you prefer to have a more robust warranty at a higher price, thats your prerogative.

I have 1000s of dollars invested in electronics, computers, and even optics that I know will be obsolete in a matter of years or in some cases months considering how fast these industries are moving these days. I personally go for balance in all areas rather than the extremes. If I could afford it, I would go for the extremes but I'd rather have 4 "toys" with lesser warranties than 1 "toy" that I can expect to keep forever when I'll probably end up replacing them all anyway. Thats how I roll.

[falcondude]

I have sent many 10 yo + swaros back! mostly for user error that caused damage and they have always been serviced very quickly and have yet to be charged!

"many 10 yo+"! How many Swaros do you own?

[Sancho]

Slightly left of topic here, but how many people in the US or Europe, in recent years, bought shares in gilt-edged financial corporations that now either don´t exist or have been nationalised? Lots. There are no gilt-edged guarantees. You pays your money, you takes your chances. With dishwashers, bank shares, or binoculars.

[CLRobles]

"many 10 yo+"! How many Swaros do you own?
Only one pair of EL 10x42's right now but I have personally owned at least a dozen pair in the past 18 years and when working at the last optics dealer that I worked it was pretty common to send trade ins and used buys to Swarovski for refurbishing......

[ksbird/foxranch]

It is interesting that most of the posts here ignore the really obvious conclusion to this series of "production steps". First you have a USA or UK based company like Heiland or Honeywell assisting a non-USA manufacturer like Pentax, to find out what the USA markets need. Then eventually Pentax dumps the Honeywells (insert Zen, Promaster, Hawke etc) and sets up its own distributorship in the USA and its only competition after that is other non-USA makers.

Along the way, the assistance of the Japanese government who helped Fuji, Yashica and others to survive the hard times and do research on behalf of the Japanese makers (which would be much too expensive for each individual company alone), allows them all to compete as Japan Inc against Kodak, Wollensak, 3M etc. Eventually it becomes too expensive for individual USA companies to try to compete making products against Japan Inc, China Inc etc. Even Germany is willing to assist its manufacturers by requiring that the German military buy its binoculars from a German maker, while the USA buys its binoculars from Fuji.

When governments support a manufacturing base, the products become more expensive for "home country" consumers and cheaper in other countries. When times are bad, these governments step in to prop them up (like we just did with USA banks, although this may also have been for world economic stability).

Capitalist companies in the USA or perhaps England have only bankruptcy regulations available to force down wages. Chinese manufacturers can get their own government to maintain peace while wages go down and the cost of living goes up (look at how one of the previous Chinese examples of superiority has dissolved - 10 years ago there were only 2 classes of health care, the Communist Party members and everyone else. Now this has fragmented and many, many people in China get no health care at all. So we have the Chinese government/military protecting capitalist exploitation of their own masses, so a few benefit while many lives are destroyed.).

As much as trade unions can get out of control (ex: USA and UK), they do serve the middle and lower classes allot and the upper classes not at all, SO you won't be seeing them in China ... ever. This also keeps costs low for countries like China.

All the teachers who went to China to give them the know-how to undersell non-Chinese companies will have played a part in destroying those non-Chinese countries, in return for getting cheaper products in the short run.

But the situation always turns around. Once the countries that transferred their technology out, can no longer compete making those same products, the Japanese/Chinese etc. companies no longer need to charge low prices. They were just charging loss prices to put their non-Chinese/Japanese competitors out of business anyway. Once that part of the business plan is completed, they move to the next step, which is to maximize profits at the expense of these non-Chinese/Japanese countries, thereby piling up even bigger foreign exchange reserves.

In the 80s there were many economists who were aghast that the Japanese companies like Sony, were able to buy up large chunks of real estate in the USA with many major locations being bought out. The Chinese approach may be even more surprising. Why buy Rockefeller Center, why not have 500,000 small Chinese businesses buy out 500,000 USA homes in a slow real estate market? The USA government might hail this as a way to "stabilize the housing market in the USA".

But sadly it would really mean that with the jobs being China, and the foreign exchange reserves being in China, and the newest and latest production equipment and plants being in China, the Chinese would set up their own product distributorships (without all that capitalist in-fighting, by just having the Chinese government hand out the favors of who gets what themselves). That would effectively make the USA a colony of China, unable to ever get the momentum to restart their own manufacturing base, and doomed to have wages lowered (with the standard of living) to the lowest common denominator in China, or in lesser markets China exploits now (like Sudan).

I know for a fact that many Chinese companies sell $20 cost items for $5 now, with the government subsidizing their losses to keep up employment and put more steam into the economy as a whole. The Chinese government actually owns most of the major Chinese oil and cigarette companies for example, giving them huge internal profits as well as huge US$ and Euro reserves. Eventually in the USA it will (hopefully) be like Japan (which has decided to throw its lot in with China for many reasons).

Graduate engineers in the USA of the future will feel lucky to get assembly line jobs making Hondas or Sony TVs or products being made in Chinese owned factories. Being a front-line capitalist country the USA will allow open competition by Chinese subsidized companies, or at least whatever version of that the Chinese can get away with in the WTA. The human rights of Chinese workers (or any workers) will be of no consequence. Chinese pollution of the world's water and air will matter not. Remember China is #2 in greenhouse gas production, so when all the interesting birds migrate to the north and south polar regions due to climate change, it will be very difficult for any of us to see them.

[fugl]

so when all the interesting birds migrate to the north and south polar regions due to climate change, it will be very difficult for any of us to see them.

But, under the doomsday scenario you describe, will any of us still want to watch birds? Me, I think I'd be far too demoralized for such frivolous pursuits!

[Sancho]

It is interesting that most of the posts here ignore the really obvious conclusion to this series of "production steps". First you have a USA or UK based company like Heiland or Honeywell assisting a non-USA manufacturer like Pentax, to find out what the USA markets need. Then eventually Pentax dumps the Honeywells (insert Zen, Promaster, Hawke etc) and sets up its own distributorship in the USA and its only competition after that is other non-USA makers.

Along the way, the assistance of the Japanese government who helped Fuji, Yashica and others to survive the hard times and do research on behalf of the Japanese makers (which would be much too expensive for each individual company alone), allows them all to compete as Japan Inc against Kodak, Wollensak, 3M etc. Eventually it becomes too expensive for individual USA companies to try to compete making products against Japan Inc, China Inc etc. Even Germany is willing to assist its manufacturers by requiring that the German military buy its binoculars from a German maker, while the USA buys its binoculars from Fuji.

When governments support a manufacturing base, the products become more expensive for "home country" consumers and cheaper in other countries. When times are bad, these governments step in to prop them up (like we just did with USA banks, although this may also have been for world economic stability).

Capitalist companies in the USA or perhaps England have only bankruptcy regulations available to force down wages. Chinese manufacturers can get their own government to maintain peace while wages go down and the cost of living goes up (look at how one of the previous Chinese examples of superiority has dissolved - 10 years ago there were only 2 classes of health care, the Communist Party members and everyone else. Now this has fragmented and many, many people in China get no health care at all. So we have the Chinese government/military protecting capitalist exploitation of their own masses, so a few benefit while many lives are destroyed.).

As much as trade unions can get out of control (ex: USA and UK), they do serve the middle and lower classes allot and the upper classes not at all, SO you won't be seeing them in China ... ever. This also keeps costs low for countries like China.

All the teachers who went to China to give them the know-how to undersell non-Chinese companies will have played a part in destroying those non-Chinese countries, in return for getting cheaper products in the short run.

But the situation always turns around. Once the countries that transferred their technology out, can no longer compete making those same products, the Japanese/Chinese etc. companies no longer need to charge low prices. They were just charging loss prices to put their non-Chinese/Japanese competitors out of business anyway. Once that part of the business plan is completed, they move to the next step, which is to maximize profits at the expense of these non-Chinese/Japanese countries, thereby piling up even bigger foreign exchange reserves.

In the 80s there were many economists who were aghast that the Japanese companies like Sony, were able to buy up large chunks of real estate in the USA with many major locations being bought out. The Chinese approach may be even more surprising. Why buy Rockefeller Center, why not have 500,000 small Chinese businesses buy out 500,000 USA homes in a slow real estate market? The USA government might hail this as a way to "stabilize the housing market in the USA".

But sadly it would really mean that with the jobs being China, and the foreign exchange reserves being in China, and the newest and latest production equipment and plants being in China, the Chinese would set up their own product distributorships (without all that capitalist in-fighting, by just having the Chinese government hand out the favors of who gets what themselves). That would effectively make the USA a colony of China, unable to ever get the momentum to restart their own manufacturing base, and doomed to have wages lowered (with the standard of living) to the lowest common denominator in China, or in lesser markets China exploits now (like Sudan).

I know for a fact that many Chinese companies sell $20 cost items for $5 now, with the government subsidizing their losses to keep up employment and put more steam into the economy as a whole. The Chinese government actually owns most of the major Chinese oil and cigarette companies for example, giving them huge internal profits as well as huge US$ and Euro reserves. Eventually in the USA it will (hopefully) be like Japan (which has decided to throw its lot in with China for many reasons).

Graduate engineers in the USA of the future will feel lucky to get assembly line jobs making Hondas or Sony TVs or products being made in Chinese owned factories. Being a front-line capitalist country the USA will allow open competition by Chinese subsidized companies, or at least whatever version of that the Chinese can get away with in the WTA. The human rights of Chinese workers (or any workers) will be of no consequence. Chinese pollution of the world's water and air will matter not. Remember China is #2 in greenhouse gas production, so when all the interesting birds migrate to the north and south polar regions due to climate change, it will be very difficult for any of us to see them.
Hmmm. An unfair and unequal health system, prohibition on unionised labour in production facilities abroad, massive environmental damage, huge greenhouses gas emissions and a blunt refusal to do anything about it for example at Kyoto, a government that supports unfair and inefficient companies, and that ignores the human rights of workers and citizens abroad (even in its markets and production bases), "bilateral" trade deals that are in fact advantageous only to one side, etc. etc. etc.....why is this all sounding vaguely familiar? It seems the Chinese have learned their Capitalism well.;)

[Alexis Powell]

How many things do you own that are more than 10 years old and still qualify for a "lifetime warranty"? If you do have some stuff that qualifies, do you really care about that stuff still? IMO, lifetime means "as long as the company is still around, we'll fix it or replace it". But I would think that 99.9% of people simply forget about it at some point.

I agree with your overall argument in this and your subsequent post in this thread, but it seems to me that most products that carry lifetime warrantees are the sorts of things that consumers _are_ likely to care about 10+ years into the future. For example, when it comes to premium binoculars, 10 years is not a long time. Here are a few binos that I've owned for over 10 years:

Swarovski 8.5x42 EL
Nikon 10x42 LX
Nikon 8x32 SE
Zeiss 7x42 Classic
B&L 7x26 Custom
Leica 8x32 BA Ultra/Trinovid

Note that these are all still current models or are unsurpassed (or marginally surpassed) by current (or slightly modified versions of these) models. I still care about these binos quite a bit. Same story with other "mature technology" products--for example my lifetime-warranteed Litespeed road bike (maybe obsolete for the Tour de France?). Side comment on differences among companies' abilities to honor their warrantees--Zeiss and Leica have good track records for keeping parts for repair around for a long time. Other companies, like Bushnell, provide lifetime warrantees but make no effort to keep parts for repair around for more than 5 years since a model is out of production. I recently had to replace the frame on my Electra commuter bike (due to a crack caused by a manufacturing flaw) and was glad that it was not only covered under warranty, but that a ware-housed new old-stock replacement was available. Electra doesn't have a current "equivalent" model, and I couldn't find a current equivalent from another brand for less than ~$1200.

I'm also glad that some of my old stuff that does not have a lifetime warranty was at least designed with repairability in mind (not a design criterion for many products these days) because in many cases, there are not new (or better) equivalents, especially when those products are part of a system. For example, if my Nikon FA and F4 film cameras (which are definitely not obsolete for my purposes, despite the fact that I also own a D700) were to fail, I'd have to repair them or find them on the used market. Come to think of it, a lot of my stuff (which I care about!) is more than 10 years old--my TV, my stereo, my laser printer. Heck, even my cell phone is now 5 years old, and though I've no worries about finding a suitable replacement, I've no interest in doing so until forced to by its demise :)

--AP

[kristoffer]

I can´t really see the problem. My Leica Trinovid 8x20 got 10 year warranty. My Swarovski scope got 10 year warranty. The Zen Ed2 I ordered got lifetime warranty. So the Zen wins in the long run. And cost a fraction of what the alphas do.

[Alexis Powell]

I can´t really see the problem. My Leica Trinovid 8x20 got 10 year warranty. My Swarovski scope got 10 year warranty. The Zen Ed2 I ordered got lifetime warranty. So the Zen wins in the long run. And cost a fraction of what the alphas do.

No argument here, but note that the Leica and Swarovski carry lifetime warrantees in the USA. --AP

[CLRobles]

I can´t really see the problem. My Leica Trinovid 8x20 got 10 year warranty. My Swarovski scope got 10 year warranty. The Zen Ed2 I ordered got lifetime warranty. So the Zen wins in the long run. And cost a fraction of what the alphas do.

Well kristoffer..... I think you should get back to us in ten years before you make a statement like this! The big four have track records decades old and a owner of one of there bins can make that statement and it would be true..... The owner of a Zen Ray.... Well that's a different story now isn't it???

[Sancho]

......Come to think of it, a lot of my stuff (which I care about!) is more than 10 years old--my TV, my stereo, my laser printer. Heck, even my cell phone is now 5 years old, and though I've no worries about finding a suitable replacement, I've no interest in doing so until forced to by its demise :)

--AP
LOL! My car is twelve years old and will stay in use until it disintegrates. As for my cellphone, I love the old Nokia models and still use one that´s about 6 years old....I have a few spare units as "back-ups" that I bought from my students when they "upgraded". Of my binoculars, I expect to be still using my Swaro EL´s long after retirement. My Nikon EII´s too. I´d be surprised if my Canon IS still works in ten years, as it has complicated doohickeys inside. Just in case, I´ll take good care of my new ZR2 when they arrive...I accept CL´s argument that it´s a new company and mightn´t be around in ten years. That´s a risk the consumer takes with a new product, and there´s no insuring against it.

[shaocaholica]

I just bought two pair of minolta AF binos with motor and phase sensor that I believe are around ten years old and they're still funtional.

[kristoffer]

General Motors, 90 years old and second largest car manufacturer recently faced bankruptcy. History and size is not all, and at the rate Zen sells bankruptcy is the last thing on my mind for them.


Well kristoffer..... I think you should get back to us in ten years before you make a statement like this! The big four have track records decades old and a owner of one of there bins can make that statement and it would be true..... The owner of a Zen Ray.... Well that's a different story now isn't it???

[CLRobles]

General Motors, 90 years old and second largest car manufacturer recently faced bankruptcy. History and size is not all, and at the rate Zen sells bankruptcy is the last thing on my mind for them.
I'm starting to believe that your almost childlike excitement on Christmas eve will lead you to say anything when it comes to your beloved Zens!!!! So here I'll do it for you OK.....
The Zen Ray line of ED binoculars are the most spectacular Binocular that the world has ever seen! They surely are the greatest binocular in terms of pure optical quality! They make the current crop of Zeiss FL, Leica HD, Swarovski EL, and Nikon EDG look like yesterdays foggy has beens! And they do this with incredible ultra advanced aerospace engineering the likes that have never been brought to the sport optics field before! The new Zen Ray ED uses the absolute state of the art metallurgy, compounds, glass, and nanotechnology when it comes to assembling this incredible binocular! There has never before been a binocular that has the chassis, glass, coatings, prisms, eye pieces and focusing units in such a complete package of excellence before........
And here is the kicker!!!!!! You can have this incredible work of science and engineering for the low, low price of ONLY $499!!!!
And you get a lifetime warranty from our brand new company that will insure that you are never, ever without your binocular! We will even come to your house and hand replace or repair it free of charge for as long as you live! Of course you will never need this warranty because of our ultra advanced production techniques that assure you of the most rugged, most reliable binocular on the market..... The likes that has never been seen before! And did I mention you get all this for the astounding low price of $499! That's right $499! One quarter of the price of the current crop of top binoculars! So step right up and get yours now before they are all gone! And if you buy them now in the next sixty seconds we will even throw in our new ultra advanced binocular sling strap harness system that makes all other binocular straps obsolete!

We also have some beachfront property here in ol New Mexico for sale too! And its selling fast! So give us a call!

[kristoffer]

You are mildly amusing and a bit wierd. You should get a free alpha for your zeal when it comes to the defense of the helpless.

[shaocaholica]

You can have this incredible work of science and engineering for the low, low price of ONLY $499!!!!

$370-$411 actually :bounce:

http://swfa.com/Zen-Ray-Zen-ED2-Binoculars-C2703.aspx

[ksbird/foxranch]

I'm not sure why anyone (except the losers) see anything "dooms-day-ish" about my previous post. If 65% of the Chinese population are the victors in this economic struggle (while the other 35% dies, the ones who live will consider themselves lucky, and happy to take their rightful place exploiting esterners, who tried to enslave them centuries ago. I have worked for Japanese companies. Some, like Marantz were "going Japanese" anyway, due to terrible management by the last of the original owners, and then Philips stepped.

Capitalism is a form of war. It is simply economic war instead of militaristic war. Since Asia has a very large majority of people on earth, they are willing to expend a few million human beings to reach the goal of winning the capitalistic war. If some geologists like Zeigler (he who measured the Greenland ice layers) are right, the earth (and its wobble) are headed to colder and colder ice ages on a more regular basis than we've seen in the past (with quite a few Maunder Minimums thrown in) anyway. The earth is simply a blob of coalescing dust, turned solid, radiating its heat into space anyway, isn't it, sort of ending up like Mars, which may have been lush a billion years ago?

Perhaps those who heat up the planet can avert the kind of ice age that covered New York City with a layer of ice more than a mile thick, only 8000 to 12,000 years ago. Eventually (if the Chinese have their business plan correct), we'll all be a kind of Asiatic-Euro-Native-Negroid, but with Peking in control. China could be producing such incredibly fine copies of the best bins by then, and at great prices too. Remember, he who laughs last, laughs best.

The small differences might be significant here. While a few million lives (more or less) are insignificant to China and Asia with its mega-billion populations, Western culture seems to value each individual. Western cultures seem to value the scientists and social analysts that create all the social disruption that Asian cultures hate the most. So don't expect long term innovation in Asia. In fact, as it becomes a dominant force, "standardization" may be the keyword. I'm not sure I want to be standardized, so lets hope it won't happen during the next 40-50 years. And since I won't be suffering the future, it won't really bother me (because I'll be gone).

In 1975 I taught Project Planning, Econometric Model Building, Forecasting, Benchmark Analysis, and Progect Budgeting using the most advanced computers available at the time, ... ta dahhh ... the IBM 370 series. I had a large team of programmer/teaching-assistants, and numerous students inputting their ideas, hopes, dreams, homework etc. (with oddly no Asian students, because maybe they already knew this future).

We projected (for a credit card company start-up called Master-something) that everyone would want a smart terminal in their homes connected to a local central processor/storage unit with daily timetables/shopping etc. The young urban, Liberal professionals would want this "benefit" first (yummy). The advantage it gave these you-profs (is there a better name for this group?) would lead other socio-economic groups trying to emulate them. It was a scenario that I thought wouldn't happen because it meant that the computer would bring a large part of people's work life into their homes, blurring the line between, work and family (silly me).

The saddest forecast was that when we tested psycho-graphics (why people spend what they spend) we were always able to forecast spending by consumers, redemption of spent credit card slips by retailers, the float required by banks to finance this all, defaults, fraud etc. within 5-8%. People were much too predictable. That's why the Asian business model of attack and destroy works so well. The pressure on the masses to be "the cheapest spenders" is what the Chinese count on.

Herschel, Newton, Messier, and Tyco Brahe (or Audubon), did not want to be standardized. But they were all government supported. Few today wish to take responsibility for spending such a large share on research designed to keep their economy ahead of the curve because it's tax-payer money now. And this will eventually lead to the masses not wanting to make ripples in the water (the Asian way). Just be sure that "cheaper" high quality goods aren't made by prison populations, or children, or forced labor. Even some of the finest mocca leathers in the world, are made through the exploitation of workers stamping leather in earthen pits filled with digestive biles. Followed by days of further preparation as women chew this leather "softer". When you understand the price being paid to bring high quality goods into the market at cheap prices, it may not seem worthwhile.

[NDhunter]

[QUOTE=CLRobles;1547505]The Zen Ray line of ED binoculars are the most spectacular Binocular that the world has ever seen! They surely are the greatest binocular in terms of pure optical quality! They make the current crop of Zeiss FL, Leica HD, Swarovski EL, and Nikon EDG look like yesterdays foggy has beens!

This Chinese Optics Thread has been quite a nice look at what has happened to the economy both in the US and wordwide. CL, I commend you for sticking up for the Alpha brands, and most here can surely see your point.
My wife likes to shop at Walmart (mostly Chinese junk), and I do my best to dissuade her but to no avail. For me I like to shop at my local hardware store, like Tru-Value, because to me saving 10 cents on an item has no thrill or satisfaction.
The problem here is that it is hard to find any manufacturer of binoculars,
save the Alphas who don't build or make parts in China. I have commented on my Nikon EDG, and I am thinking that 100% of this is made in Japan, as Nikon is large enough to make their own glass and would take pride in making the flagship in Japan. The strap also says made in Japan, but the case is made in China, as are most all of the many other binocular models they make.

The Zen Ray has surely created quite a stir here, as for many, there is no budget for $1,000 plus binoculars.

I remember your post sometime ago about buying a used Alpha, and that is still a good idea. I have used both Nikon and Swarovski service, and have been very pleased with them. So I guess that is what makes the world go around.

[dalat]

Well, CLRobles exaggerates here, but I also find the almost religious veneration of everything ZEN a bit amusing.
It's not enough that Zen apparently delivers great optics for little money, no, also warranty and service has to be superior than Leica and Swaro....

Good warranties and service is sth. that needs to be proven over years. The big four have quite some track record here. What Zen gives you is a promise. If you bet on this promise, you'll need a lot of faith and believe. That promise is worth as much as you can expect from a 3-year old small company. Possibly this company is still there in 10 years, but chances are high they're not.

General Motors is a good example. This company is bancrupt, but it won't disappear, it will continue to be around after some structural or whatever changes. Same for the established binocular makers. Eg. Leica is in trouble for quite a while. But the company and it's brand is still to valuable to let it disappear. Chances are good these companies will be around still quite long time, even if they get in trouble from time to time. If Zen or the like get into trouble, nobody cares and they're gone.

The big 4 serve quite a large market worldwide, all of them do other things than just making binoculars. I don't know which market Zen actually serves outside the users of this forum...

All the big companies make their own bins, Zen is quite dependant of some company in China. Things there are changing fast, maybe in 2 years this company will be good enough to build their own brand, and quit producing for Zen. Zen may find a less good replacement and soon the word will spread in birdforum and gone they are ;)

Less than 500$ for a great bin? I think you can be happy about that without needing to make yourself believe that you will receive lifetime care of your bin.

[stereotruckdriver]

As the old saying goes " you get what you pay for"! I have yet to try the Zen's, I will soon though! I trust what other's on here have posted! But, the alpha's oooze with quality no doubt about it that is what you pay for! I have glass that is as close to alpha as you can get but, doesn't have the feel of top glass I assume that is where the Zen's fall in that respect? Glass is only part of the equation!!! Bryce...

[ThoLa]

.....
The Zen Ray line of ED binoculars are the most spectacular Binocular that the world has ever seen! ....
We also have some beachfront property here in ol New Mexico for sale too! And its selling fast! So give us a call!

o:)o:)
Great, Mr Robles. :t::t:
Simply great. 3:-)3:-)


I'm beginning to believe Alice in Wonderland must be using one, too. And using it at her beachfront resort in N.M. o:D

[CLRobles]

[QUOTE=CLRobles;1547505]The Zen Ray line of ED binoculars are the most spectacular Binocular that the world has ever seen! They surely are the greatest binocular in terms of pure optical quality! They make the current crop of Zeiss FL, Leica HD, Swarovski EL, and Nikon EDG look like yesterdays foggy has beens!


The problem here is that it is hard to find any manufacturer of binoculars,
save the Alphas who don't build or make parts in China.

The Zen Ray has surely created quite a stir here, as for many, there is no budget for $1,000 plus binoculars.

I remember your post sometime ago about buying a used Alpha, and that is still a good idea. I have used both Nikon and Swarovski service, and have been very pleased with them. So I guess that is what makes the world go around.
Well two companies come to mind very quickly.... Docter and Meopta... Both are European companies that have made there own glass and bins for a very long time now! And both can be found for under $1000. And believe me, there is a huge difference in build quality.... Both of these companies have a serious commitment to quality control and are right there with the alphas! No Chinese bin can claim any of this! They are not built as well, have the history or reputation, or the warranty.... They just don't and are getting very close to these two brands in terms of price point!
Also buying used is always the way to go for someone that can't afford new.... always has been! Someone just posted a almost new Leica ultravid for $1000 this is something that someone just can't lose with! In ten years form now that ultravid will still fetch near $1000 where a ZR ED will fetch.... Well we'll just say far, far less |:d|

[ThoLa]

[QUOTE=NDhunter;1547530]
... Docter .... commitment to quality control and are right there with the alphas! |

docter? 3:-)3:-)3:-)

[CLRobles]

[QUOTE=CLRobles;1547618]

docter? 3:-)3:-)3:-)
hahaha I see you find my Docter suggestion amusing... I have always found their Nobilem line to be of the highest quality and very good optically! But to each their own..... May I suggest a Zen Ray to you? :-O

[ThoLa]

hahaha I see you find my Docter suggestion amusing...
yes, in the light of the actual performance.


May I suggest a Zen Ray to you? :-O

no, thank you. I think I'll stick to "home brew". That includes the magnificent products of our southern neighbours. :t:

The eco preachers also keep telling us: Buy locally to protect the environment ;)

[Sancho]

Capitalism is a form of war. It is simply economic war instead of militaristic war. Since Asia has a very large majority of people on earth, they are willing to expend a few million human beings to reach the goal of winning the capitalistic war....................
Eventually (if the Chinese have their business plan correct), we'll all be a kind of Asiatic-Euro-Native-Negroid, but with Peking in control.
................When you understand the price being paid to bring high quality goods into the market at cheap prices, it may not seem worthwhile.

Actually it´s usually economic war coupled with military war, or at least "proxy war". Look how we´re ensuring our Western oil supplies.

I doubt your point about a multi-ethnic future, I don´t think the Chinese authorities are that keen on intermarriage (and I do speak with some experience here!;)).

I agree 100%, the human cost of the products we take for granted are huge. And yet I sleep soundly at night. Check out the "cost" of producing that icon of Western Individualistic Expression, the blue-jean....in Lesotho:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Gap-And-Levi-Strauss-Supplied-By-Lesotho-Factory-That-Pollutes-Waterways-And-Dumps-Hazardous-Waste/Media-Gallery/200908115352060

[fugl]

I'm not sure why anyone (except the losers) see anything "dooms-day-ish" about my previous post. .

Except the losers? Who else? Why would the "winners" object to your scenario?

In general, predicting the future is a very difficult thing to do. In 20-years' time, maybe even in 10, things might look very different even to your jaundiced eye.

[CLRobles]

yes, in the light of the actual performance.

I have used Docters for almost twenty years and have owned them at the same time as Leica Trinovids, Swarovski EL and SLC, and Zeiss Classics.... The large 15x60 Docter had always been right there in performance almost equaling the Zeiss 15x60 and just a step below the Swarovski SLC..... I owned and used the SLC and the Nobilem side by side for at least 10 years and I can tell you without a doubt the Docter is almost as good! Though not nearly as portable.... I also owned a Docter 10x40 Aspheric for 10 years or so and had owned it at the same time as SLC's, EL's, Trinovids and Ultravids, and the Zeiss Classic.... The Aspheric from Docter was better than the first gen SCL and Classic, on par with the trinovids and second gen SLC's, and just a step below the ultravids, EL's, and third gen SLC's..... I have not tried the newer 10x42 or 8x42 Doc's... the focusing system seem to have taken a step backwards but I have no actual experience with it??? Anyway this is all for another thread I'm sure! My point being is that even though the Doc's may be a little behind in pure optical terms to the newest Chinese ED bin I guarentee it is built better! They are BOMB proof and so is the Meopta and both are very close in price to the Chinese bins.....
I know which ones I would buy after have used bins for as long as I have! And it wouldn't be one from our eastern friends ;)

[ksp48]

I must confess I find some of these posts a little silly. I drive a Lexus. Why. Because its really good and doesn't cost as much as a Mercedes or a Beemer, much less a Rolls or Bentley. In the real world people make choices all day long. used to have Eagle Optics Denali. Frankly for my purposes they were great. Then I bought a Nikon Monarch. A little better and a little lighter but less FOV. In the last month or so I've been reading about the Chinese binos. I ordered a Zen ED2 last night. Dialectric prism coatings, huge FOV, supposedly crystal clear, etc. etc. for $400. Similar Alphas for $1700. Similar Vortex for $650. Now you are jabbering on about lifetime warranties. I seem to recall similar discussions when I didn't buy my first Honda. Turns out that would have been a pretty good car.

[ksp48]

P.S> what's with the CLR dude who posts everywhere about how bad the chinese binos are but hasn't actually ever used one.

[ksp48]

Oh and one last comment. Presumably because of the lower prices on the Chinese binos, other prices have come down. The Alphas are offering $100-$350 rebates and I bought a Nikon 8x42 Monarchs for $192 (after the $50 rebate). Vortex Razor has a $100 rebate. So its been win win for the consumer. I really don't understand CLR's annimosity. Don't like 'em , don't buy 'em.

[kristoffer]

Vortex and Monarchs are also "Chinese", but maybe you meant that.

[falcondude]

Vortex and Monarchs are also "Chinese", but maybe you meant that.

Someone once commented that Vortex Razor is assembled in China with Japanese standard. Does this make it the first Chinese open bridge binoculars?

[Steve C]

Vortex Razors, according to the folks at Vortex, are Japanese. So are the Vipers. The Fury and Diamondback are made by Chinese manufacturers.

[kristoffer]

assembeled in japan,made in china is what i have heard. Not true?Vortex Razors, according to the folks at Vortex, are Japanese. So are the Vipers. The Fury and Diamondback are made by Chinese manufacturers.

[kristoffer]

assembeled in japan,made in china is what i have heard. Not true?Vortex Razors, according to the folks at Vortex, are Japanese. So are the Vipers. The Fury and Diamondback are made by Chinese manufacturers.

[Steve C]

Kristoffer,

This is not definitive, but The Vipers and above are Japanese, Furys and below are Chinese. If there is a Chinese connection in the Razor and Viper it is very new.

[John M Robinson]

While you're blabbering on BF, the Chinese are building a modern economy.

http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/news/2004(4-6)/news040416c.htm

Excerpt...
"During the three days of the conference, more than seven hundreds of papers were to be presented, which are related to new areas such as laser technology, remote sensing technology, and quantum information technology"

This event was in 2004 so maybe you missed it. I can't speak for the folks at Zen, Hawke, or Promaster but I'm quite certain their R&D consists primarily of picking numbers from a Chinese optical menu. Do you really think Eagle Optics R&D department pulled all-nighters to develop the Atlas look-alike? No, they made some phone calls and maybe someone went to China...to pick numbers from a Chinese optical menu. If I'm wrong, please let me know.

The Zen isn't good because of Zen; it's good because the Chinese know how to make a binocular. Zen, Hawke, and Eagle Optics can request modifications (as Zen recently did in a timely manner) that can improve the final product. The optics, I'd venture to say, are designed and manufactured solely by Chinese optical engineers. A long time ago many of my best students were Chinese, especially my teaching assistants. Trust me when I tell you they were deadly serious about their academic endeavors.

John

I can vouch for that. Back when I was in college around 1970, I worked in the chem lab after school. Amongst the forty or fifty students in this one chem class there were five of six asians, two or three hours after lab was over I would go in to clean it up and those six asians were still there working hard, all of the American kids bolted as soon as the bell rang.

John

[xmeecosmic]

I just emailed Vortex directly and in response to the question where are the Diaomondbacks, Furies, Vipers, and Razors parts manufactured and then assembled I received back a response in less than 15 minutes.

Their response seems to confirm what Steve said.

"We design, test, and warranty all the product here in Middleton, Wisconsin.
The Diamondback and Fury are made in China and the Razor and Viper are made in Japan."

[kristoffer]

Ok,
then it is settled. So, time to bash Vortex for being Chinese then ;)


I just emailed Vortex directly and in response to the question where are the Diaomondbacks, Furies, Vipers, and Razors parts manufactured and then assembled I received back a response in less than 15 minutes.

Their response seems to confirm what Steve said.

"We design, test, and warranty all the product here in Middleton, Wisconsin.
The Diamondback and Fury are made in China and the Razor and Viper are made in Japan."

[Sancho]

Here´s my bottom line...given that no binoculars are Irish-made, I don´t give a crap where mine are from. And if they were Irish-made, I wouldn´t buy them anyway, just out of contrariness...;)

[NWBirder]

Here´s my bottom line...given that no binoculars are Irish-made, I don´t give a crap where mine are from. And if they were Irish-made, I wouldn´t buy them anyway, just out of contrariness...;)

I would love to get a pair of Irish-made binoculars. I am tired of those German/Austrian/Chinese/Japanese optics. Time for new blood. o:)

[ceasar]

I would love to get a pair of Irish-made binoculars. I am tired of those German/Austrian/Chinese/Japanese optics. Time for new blood. o:)

Have a few tots of Paddys then hold up the shot glass (not to be confused with Schott Glass) to your good eye. You will see two images. Have a couple of more tots to collimate the images. Begorra! An Irish Binocular!B (:
Bob

[BirderSean]

Don't forget about the quality control and high standards that have led to the "chinese drywall" fiasco in the U.S. and lead paint showing up in your children's toys. Some good points have been made, but China has a ways to go before I will think of them as a nation that manufactures and exports high quality products.

[Sancho]

Don't forget about the quality control and high standards that have led to the "chinese drywall" fiasco in the U.S. and lead paint showing up in your children's toys. Some good points have been made, but China has a ways to go before I will think of them as a nation that manufactures and exports high quality products.
Every time I hear blanket accusations against Chinese companies about Quality Control or safety, the words "Union Carbide" and "Bhopal" spring to mind.....

[oleaf]

Sure, but...

The drywall and lead painted toys are no doubt under USA brands. Many seem to point to China and say they're selling us bad product. But... 98% carry USA brand names.

So... who's not doing their job? You put your brand name on a product you are responsible for quality control. Something to think about.

Cheers

[ceasar]

While you're blabbering on BF, the Chinese are building a modern economy. .................................................. ................................................

http://www.zju.edu.cn/english/news/2004(4-6)/news040416c.htm

John

They are still a 1/2 century and more behind the west. Check the link out below.

Does anyone REALLY miss those old days? They still talk about the old days here in the Anthracite Rust Belt when a man would get killed in an industrial accident in the mines and the bosses would bring his carcass home in a mule pulled wagon and throw it on the front steps of the company home he rented from the them!

http://www.chinahush.com/2009/10/21/amazing-pictures-pollution-in-china/

Bob

[ceasar]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8372760.stm

Since my last post here on the 18th another Mining Accident of great magnitude occurred in Northern China. There were 92 deaths. It is stated that it is the largest in 2 years!

As I mentioned above, I'm from Pennsylvania, a state with a long and storied history of Coal Mining. I can't remember the last time Pennsylvania, or any other state in the USA, had a mining disaster of this magnitude. I'd bet it is more than 50 years. Yet these tragedies almost seem commonplace in China.

I brought this up to keep this thread active. I think it is important.

Bob

[ceasar]

Let us hope that this trend has not spread to the Chinese University's Physics and Engineering Graduate Schools that graduate the Optical designers of their binoculars! From todays Asia Times Online: "In China, an easy route to academic glory." Many PhD's are bought! Say it isn't so!

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/KK25Ad01.html

Bob

[sless13]

I thought this was the BF, not the PF (Propoganda Forum) or the XF (Xenophobic Forum) or the OCF (Obsessive-Compulsive Forum).
"Say it isn't so!"

Les

[Sancho]

I thought this was the BF, not the PF (Propoganda Forum) or the XF (Xenophobic Forum) or the OCF (Obsessive-Compulsive Forum).
"Say it isn't so!"

Les
LOL! Yes, quite a few issues are being confused here. It started with Chinese bins. If buying of a country´s optics supports accidents/abuses in other areas, then from what country can we buy anything? Not even our own!

[kristoffer]

It did not start with bins being chinese. Monarchs, Hawke and lots of others have been chinese for long. It started with ZenRay being too good ;)