buyjng new scopes

[fender]

Hello everyone, I've just joined the forum. My wife and i are both keen bird watchers, and RSPB members. We are in the process of buying our first scope, and have a budget of around £500 . We have been looking at some in the rspb magazine on Warehouse Express.com , and have whittled it down to three ; the Opticron HR 66 GA, HR 80 GA, and the ES 80 GA ED, all with HDF zooms, and 45 degree eyepieces. All are within our budget on the above website. We will probably opt for one of the 80mm ones, but would appreciate views as to which would be the best to go for,and anyones experiences of these, and the website mentioned.

Regards , Phil. :bounce:

[Grousemore]

Hi Phil and welcome to Birdforum from the Moderators and Admin.
You've come to the right place,a lot of Opticron users here,who I'm sure will give you their opinion in due course.
Enjoy the Site!

[alan_rymer]

fender

Out of that list the ES 80 GA ED has high density glass and so you see a better image in more extreme light conditions, unfortunately you need a tripod too!. On warehouse express that scope and eyepiece was £528, but its probably the best scope for that price in the UK!.

[pduxon]

Hi fender

welcome to the forum.

The ES80 ED is a fine scope I use it myself as do alot of BFers.

Also consider the Kowa 613 which you can get with a tripod for £500 from Warehouse express.

[scampo]

Hello everyone, I've just joined the forum. My wife and i are both keen bird watchers, and RSPB members. We are in the process of buying our first scope, and have a budget of around £500 . We have been looking at some in the rspb magazine on Warehouse Express.com , and have whittled it down to three ; the Opticron HR 66 GA, HR 80 GA, and the ES 80 GA ED, all with HDF zooms, and 45 degree eyepieces. All are within our budget on the above website. We will probably opt for one of the 80mm ones, but would appreciate views as to which would be the best to go for,and anyones experiences of these, and the website mentioned.

Regards , Phil. :bounce:Hi Phil

You have not mentioned the bargain of the decade at Warehouse Express - they are still (I think) selling the Nikon ED78 at less than half original price. It is now a discontinued scope but many birders here have them and have commented very highly indeed. The scope is top notch and uses top quality ED glass, giving a brilliantly sharp, bright and wide image. It is £599 with 38xW - a very decent eyepiece indeed. It would also be fine for digiscoping if you ever consider that option.

Also, Warehouse Express are still selling the Kowa 613 - a beautiful small scope, again with ED glass. I would go for the 30xW option unless you really feel the need for a zoom. Of the Opticrons, the two to go for are the ES80 (ask for the one with ED glass as they now sell a non-ED version - ED glass reduces colour fringing in the image) and the HR66ED.

[pduxon]

You have not mentioned the bargain of the decade at Warehouse Express - they are still (I think) selling the Nikon ED78 at less than half original price. It is now a discontinued scope but many birders here have them and have commented very highly indeed. The scope is top notch and uses top quality ED glass, giving a brilliantly sharp, bright and wide image. It is £599 with 38xW - a very decent eyepiece indeed. It would also be fine for digiscoping if you ever consider that option.

Also, Warehouse Express are still selling the Kowa 613 - a beautiful small scope, again with ED glass. I would go for the 30xW option unless you really feel the need for a zoom. Of the Opticrons, the two to go for are the ES80 (ask for the one with ED glass as they now sell a non-ED version - ED glass reduces colour fringing in the image) and the HR66ED.

I did mention the Kowa !! The Nikon doesn't include a 'pod does it? Good buy though.

[fender]

Thanks for the welcome Grousemore, i'm sure that i am going to enjoy the forum, and exchanging views with other users.
Thanks, to you other guys aswell for your responses. Things seem to be pointing in favour of the Opticron ES 80 ED at the moment ( i've looked at the Nickon mentioned, but adding a zoom, would exeed my budget). Nobody has mentioned the HR 80 GA yet, and it is a nitrogen waterproof model,and i can see no word about the ES 80 ED having nitrogen. Is this a desirable feature to have ? , i also thought that the HR 80 GA was a little better build quality. Would someone please comment on this.

Phil.

[pduxon]

never used the hr80.

Your best bet is to compare the two side by side. The HR80 is alot heavier!! about 450grams. You have to lug it around

[fender]

Thanks Pete i take your point about the weight, incidentally,which would you prefer, the Kowa, or the Opticron?
Phil.

[scampo]

Thanks for the welcome Grousemore, i'm sure that i am going to enjoy the forum, and exchanging views with other users.
Thanks, to you other guys aswell for your responses. Things seem to be pointing in favour of the Opticron ES 80 ED at the moment ( i've looked at the Nickon mentioned, but adding a zoom, would exeed my budget). Nobody has mentioned the HR 80 GA yet, and it is a nitrogen waterproof model,and i can see no word about the ES 80 ED having nitrogen. Is this a desirable feature to have ? , i also thought that the HR 80 GA was a little better build quality. Would someone please comment on this.

Phil.The 80ED is watertight, so will almost certainly be "nitrogen purged" (the nitrogen simply rids the inner air of oxygen thus preventing any chance of mould growth, etc). The HR80GA is more expensive than the Nikon and is a very heavy, large scope.

The Nikon would undoubtedly give a better image than the Opticron - but you are correct on the zoom cost (esp. as the MCII 25-75 is the one to go for) - but don't be oversold on a zoom; many birders know that a fixed wide angle is preferable - the Nikon 38xW is a super eyepiece and with the Nikon ED78 at £599-00 is, frankly, a relative steal. All zooms offer a narrow field of view and this makes locating a bird far more difficult than with any wide angle eyepiece.

Have a look at this review first, as you might find your budget more elastic!

http://www.alula.fi/GB/index.htm

[bill lord]

The Nikon would undoubtedly give a better image than the Opticron - but you are correct on the zoom cost (esp. as the MCII 25-75 is the one to go for) - but don't be oversold on a zoom; many birders know that a fixed wide angle is preferable - the Nikon 38xW is a super eyepiece and with the Nikon ED78 at £599-00 is, frankly, a relative steal. All zooms offer a narrow field of view and this makes locating a bird far more difficult than with any wide angle eyepiece.

Have a look at this review first, as you might find your budget more elastic!

http://www.alula.fi/GB/index.htm

I looked at the ES 80 as well as the Nikon a few weeks ago when I bought my new scope, and it had many things going for it. But the image quality on the Nikon was just so much better than the ES80, no chromatics was the first thing I noticed and then the true clear and very sharp image on the Nikon sold it to me. I bought it with a 25-75 eyepiece and it's great, but I shall be looking at the fixed eyepieces before very long. The field of view on the zoom lens makes finding things very much more difficult and there is little difference between the opticron zoom and the Nikon zoom for this, my previous scope had a 20x eyepiece which is my comparison. The high zoom values are very usable if the light is bright and even when not the image is still clear and sharp. The downside of the Nikon in comparison with the ES80 is that it is not waterproof just water resistant, this does not seem to be a problem, my last scope did not even have the same level of protection as this one and in three years it never posed a problem, plus the Nikon literature says that it will have no problem with a bit of rain on it but it wil not like being immersed in water.
You are unlikely to find an ED 78 to look through in any shop the last supplies seem to be available from Warehouse Express, but if you go into somewhere that sells the ED 82 and look at that you will not notice a lot of difference if you did decide to buy the Nikon.

[scampo]

I think the ED78 is for all intents and purposes waterproof, Bill. As you say, it won't stand the pressure of total immersion in water but how many times do we drop our scope in the river?

It's difficult to describe easily the very high qualities of the Nikon image - but, as you say, it is outstandingly good.

[pduxon]

The 80ED is watertight, so will almost certainly be "nitrogen purged" (the nitrogen simply rids the inner air of oxygen thus preventing any chance of mould growth, etc). The HR80GA is more expensive than the Nikon and is a very heavy, large scope.

The Nikon would undoubtedly give a better image than the Opticron - but you are correct on the zoom cost (esp. as the MCII 25-75 is the one to go for) - but don't be oversold on a zoom; many birders know that a fixed wide angle is preferable - the Nikon 38xW is a super eyepiece and with the Nikon ED78 at £599-00 is, frankly, a relative steal. All zooms offer a narrow field of view and this makes locating a bird far more difficult than with any wide angle eyepiece.

Have a look at this review first, as you might find your budget more elastic!

http://www.alula.fi/GB/index.htm
The HR80GA is not more expensive than the Nikon the ED is !!

You maybe right on the Nikon, indeed probably are, but the one time you compared the two you weren't convinced!! You seem to have changed your tune when you bought the NIkon!!

[pduxon]

Thanks Pete i take your point about the weight, incidentally,which would you prefer, the Kowa, or the Opticron?
Phil.

Phil

don't know, haven't compared the two side by side. The Kowa is very light which should appeal. As much as I've had a little dig at Scampo I'd agree the HR80 is too heavy.

Your problem with the Nikon is that you won't be able to compare it with another scope ditto the Kowa they are end of lines.They almost certainly represent excellent value BUT you may end up buying something you don't get on with. The ED78 should outperform the ES80.

An example at Minsmere Dave Smith and his wife both had the same (I think) Opticron bins his were x42 and hers x32 but he couldn't get on with hers at all.

At the end of the day if you can't compare two scopes you are taking a risk with it. Although the Kowa and Nikon are both very well regarded scopes.

I'm sure you realise you have to put in a tripod in to your budget. Which is a further £100 ish

[bill lord]

Phil
Your problem with the Nikon is that you won't be able to compare it with another scope ditto the Kowa they are end of lines.They almost certainly represent excellent value BUT you may end up buying something you don't get on with. The ED78 should outperform the ES80.

The ED 78 does outperform the ES80 put the two together and there is no comparison.


At the end of the day if you can't compare two scopes you are taking a risk with it. Although the Kowa and Nikon are both very well regarded scopes.

A very good comparison for the ED 78 can be got by trying the ED82 with the ES 80, there is very little to choose between the 78 and the 82. If you really want to have a look at the ED 78 then the best way to do this is to buy one from Warehouse Express and if you do not like it simply return it within their 7 day period, they are a good firm to deal with.


I'm sure you realise you have to put in a tripod in to your budget. Which is a further £100 ish

If you decide upon the ES 80 then In Focus do a good deal with their tripod, which is £40 if you buy a scope from them.

I've been having more thouhts on eyepieces. The 38X eyepiece that warehouse Express have on the ED 78 for £549 straight or £599 angled has almost exactly the same field of view as the 25-75 zoom at it's lowest setting, so you would not be getting any real advantage in the ability to find things, and it must have a disadvantgae in that the brightness of the image will be less at 38x than it would at 38x.

[pduxon]

The ED 78 does outperform the ES80 put the two together and there is no comparison.


Bill I say probably because indiviudal eyes are different. Nothing is black and white. Some users just don't get on with individual pieces of kit. I'd acccept that 95% of people would agree with you. However the following comparison is interesting.....



With a friend I was able to compare an ES80 with 20-60x zoom today in dull conditions at Rutland Water against the new Nikon Fieldscope 82 with equivalent zoom. The ES80 was very bright and sharp except at 60x when the image was a little disappointing; certainly - to our surprise, it compared well with the Nikon in every way.

But, we then had the chance to look through an Opticron HR66GAED and...

to the both of us, it proved the best of the three at all magnifications - bright, clear, sharp...

Now this is thoroughly confusing - I thought the Nikon would wipe the floor with the Opticrons. Absolutely it didn't and the 66mm seemed to be a gem - and, as I say, viewing conditions were trying. Sadly I hadn't got my son's Swarovski 65ED with me but, you know, I have a sneaky feeling that the Opticron 66 would have stood up well.


Sorry Steve!!

[scampo]

The HR80GA is not more expensive than the Nikon the ED is !!

You maybe right on the Nikon, indeed probably are, but the one time you compared the two you weren't convinced!! You seem to have changed your tune when you bought the NIkon!!Ah well - I am doomed to remain confused over the model numbers of the Opticron scopes. I do think they should get their range sorted out as it just doesn't inspire confidence when there are so many closely similar models some of which are this and some of which are that...

(-:

I don't think the differences between top scopes are vast - and the Opticron zoom + ES80ED is exceptionally good value for money. But the Nikon scopes offer a more solid, brighter image - but so they should as they costs a lot more (except the Warehouse Express offer on the ED78 makes it about the same price). The Nikon scopes also have a more strongly constructed quality.

Happy Easter, btw, Pete!

[pduxon]

Ah well - I am doomed to remain confused over the model numbers of the Opticron scopes. I do think they should get their range sorted out as it just doesn't inspire confidence when there are so many closely similar models some of which are this and some of which are that...

(-:

I do feel that the Nikon scopes offer a better image - but so they should as they costs a lot more (except the Warehouse Express offer on the ED78 makes it about the same price). The Nikon scopes also have a more strongly constructed quality.

Happy Easter, btw, Pete!

Fully agree with the first point!!!!

Happy Easter - Steve

[scampo]

I'm sure you realise you have to put in a tripod in to your budget. Which is a further £100 ishOr buy from In Focus and get their bargain £39-95 tripod offer when you buy it with a scope!

[scampo]

Bill I say probably because indiviudal eyes are different. Nothing is black and white. Some users just don't get on with individual pieces of kit. I'd acccept that 95% of people would agree with you. However the following comparison is interesting.....




Sorry Steve!!I have to say that testing the scopes in the In Focus shop at Rutland Water on that day, the HR66ED did impress me a good deal. I haven't had another chance to try it out, though - although I have seen a few around. What made me go for the ES80 in the end was that it was cheaper than the HR66ED (oddly!) and the same weight - but then, if you recall, I had so many problems with marks and air bubbles in the Opticron scopes and zoom eyepieces that in the end I gave up and paid up for a Nikon ED82A (and have never looked back - although it's now with Nikon being repaired after my little accident).

[pduxon]

but then, if you recall, I had so many problems with marks and air bubbles in the Opticron scopes and zoom eyepieces that in the end I gave up and paid up, finishing up with the Nikon ED82A (and never looking back - although it's still with Nikon being repaired after an unfortunate accident).

was a pain that, but then it happens with all makes.

How flipping long have Nikon had your scope? Interestingly i-f tell me that opticron are the easiest to deal with if you have problems. Of course we all hope we don't have problems!!!

[scampo]

They have run out of stock of spare lens hoods - just my luck. Apparently it could be some weeks... Yes - In Focus said the same to me, and I reckon they might be right because the CP4500 (which was attached to the scope when I knocked them both over (-: ) was fixed within a week.

What I like about Nikon is that when you phone them you get straight through to a real person (!) and are dealt with in a very friendly and efficient manner.

[fender]

Hello everyone, been scanning all your views and they make very interesting reading,thanks for all your help. Still a bit unsure what to go for ( had decided on the ES 80 GA ED until all this talk of the Nikkon ED 78). I could just about afford one, with the 38x eyepiece that it comes with, but a zoom for it would as i said be too costly . The reason i wanted a zoom was that i thought it would be more practical, esp as a lot of my viewing will be long range ( Peregrine watching, and soon off to N.Wales on hol). I thought that i would get a decent field of view when on low mag then zoom in for more detail, never used one before though. As the Nikkon is being discontinued how difficult would it be to get spare parts if ever needed.? If most of you think the 38x eyepiece will suit my needs as mentioned, i will bow to your wisdom and send off to Warehouse express for the Nikkon . By the way i already have a good camera tripod that could be used. Hope i have'nt bored you all with such a long thread. !!
Regards Phil.

[pduxon]

Bored? Not at all.

Hope you enjoy the scope. Nikon do some good optics (my bins are Nikon),

Spare parts? Well the lens' (Scampo will correct if I'm wrong ;) ) for the 78 & 82 are identical and its guaranteed for 10 years.

[scampo]

I don't know if they are the same optics (82mm vs. 78mm), but Nikon still repair cameras that have long been discontinued. They are a leading multinational optics company so issues over future repair would not be one of my concerns.

I think for distant views many birders are happy with a fixed eyepiece - but, I have to say, that is where a zoom can sometimes come into its own - and the Nikon goes up to 75x, if it comes to that.

I'd go for the 38xW fixed eyepiece and buy the zoom later. I attach my spare eyepiece to the stay-on case and it's no great problem to switch eyepieces.

[iporali]

I don't know anyone who had regretted buying more expensive optics than he/she originally thought. I am sure you will get a good price from Nikon if for some reason you are not happy with it. I too recommend Nikon with the 38xW.

Ilkka

[Grousemore]

I don't know anyone who had regretted buying more expensive optics than he/she originally thought.

Ilkka

So true,Ilkka,my only regret in the past was delaying the decision and I now advise anyone who asks ..go for it!

[bill lord]

Hello everyone, been scanning all your views and they make very interesting reading,thanks for all your help. Still a bit unsure what to go for ( had decided on the ES 80 GA ED until all this talk of the Nikkon ED 78). I could just about afford one, with the 38x eyepiece that it comes with, but a zoom for it would as i said be too costly . The reason i wanted a zoom was that i thought it would be more practical, esp as a lot of my viewing will be long range ( Peregrine watching, and soon off to N.Wales on hol). I thought that i would get a decent field of view when on low mag then zoom in for more detail, never used one before though. As the Nikkon is being discontinued how difficult would it be to get spare parts if ever needed.? If most of you think the 38x eyepiece will suit my needs as mentioned, i will bow to your wisdom and send off to Warehouse express for the Nikkon . By the way i already have a good camera tripod that could be used. Hope i have'nt bored you all with such a long thread. !!
Regards Phil.

You really need to have a look at something very similar to the ED 78 before you buy, if you can get to somewhere that has an ED 82 to compare to the ES80 you will get a reasonable comparison. The zoom lens gives a field of view of 28m at 1000m, the 38x lens has a field of view of 33m at 1000m and the 30x has a field of view of 42m according to the nikon website. So the circle that you see through the 30X lens is just a bit bigger than 2 times the area of the zoom lens, but the 38x lens is shows less than 1.4 times the area. If you are seeking a bird in the air at a distance I would have thought this would make a difference. But only you can tell when you use it. The Nikon has been discontinued but Nikon have a good reputation for looking after their older equipment.

[scampo]

I have used the 38xW lens, Bill and it is surprisingly wide angle, very bright, contrasty and sharp as a pin to the edge. I'd probably add the zoom later when funds allow if I bought the ED78 with it. As you say, the ED82 (which is what I use) is probably nearly identical to the ED78 in terms of image.

The latest 30/38/zoom eyepieces are also very similar - but now all have twist up plastic eyecups instead of fold-down rubber - a small detail, really. However, the zoom optics have been re-designed and designated "MCII".

'In Focus' sell the Nikon - and usually have good viewing facilities, so if Phil can get to one of their shops it would be useful. When I looked through the 38x at their Titchwell shop, I was more than a little impressed, as I say - but I always prefer the view of a fixed wide angle eyepiece to that of any zoom.

[fender]

Thanks fellas, thats very helpful, i had decided on the Nikkon and sent an e-mail to warehouse exp to try and reserve one, as unable to contact them any other way (because of easter) . I may go to ' in focus' at slimbridge tomorrow.
Phil.

[Ragna]

Fender.If warehouse express can supply a 30xeyepiece i think this is a better option as 38x may be a bit too powerfull. IMHO 30x is the ideal magnification good light gathering fov and depth of field.Dont worry about the Nikon not being waterproof as this is just the latest fad and you can get a case.I know this wont concern you now but the Nikon will hold a better second hand value.

[scampo]

I would agree but the offer is only with the 38x, Graham, sadly - but I still feel that the deal is a real bargain and that the 38x is an excellent piece of kit. It's wide and offers a decent magnification for everyday birding. Your comment on waterproofing is spot on - the Nikon is 'shower proof' and that means, for all intents and purposes, safe against rain, which is all that matters.

[Ragna]

Steve i do agree if its showerproof that all that matters,shame they only do the Nikon with the 38x. Stilla good deal though.

[Leif]

Steve i do agree if its showerproof that all that matters,shame they only do the Nikon with the 38x. Stilla good deal though.

They sell the scope on its own for £500 and you can add one of the more recent eyepieces such as the 30xw at £190. It's still a good price.

[bill lord]

[QUOTE=Ragna] Dont worry about the Nikon not being waterproof as this is just the latest fad and you can get a case. QUOTE]

The ED 78 comes with a carry case but there is no Stay on case available for it. The carry case fits on the scope whilst it is stil on the tripod so if you attach the carry cases strap when you take it off it hangs around the top of the tripod and makes a good receptacle for the lens covers.

[dogfish]

I think Warehouse Express are selling the old-style eyepieces with rubber eyecups with the ED 78. I'd be interested to know if anyone has compared these eyepieces with the new MC series of wide-angle eyepieces, which are fully multicoated, unlike their predecessors. Are the new ones obviously better optically?
And am I alone in preferring the comfort of rubber-style eyecups for both bins and scopes; the tough shiny type used on the later Zeiss 7x42s for example, rather than the soft type on the Nikon 8x32s?

Perhaps screw-in eyecups are an advantage only for spectacle-wearers?

Sean

[scampo]

I think only the zoom eyepiece has altered optically as it is now called MCII; the fixed eyepieces are still called MCI. The extra multicoating surely won't have made a deal of difference as even recent reviews were highly favourable.

On another thread, Jane Turner has sung the praises of the ED78 + 38x and that from a very experienced birder indeed:

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?p=138356#post138356

[fender]

Hi everyone, went to symonds yat rock on easter monday to see Peregrins.
The r.sp.b. were there with some scopes, a Leica, swarovski, and a new bushnel
scope, my wife and i both agreed the leica apo 62 gave the best view, the bushnel 80mm the next, the swarovski 80mm surprisingly giving a noticably poorer view. Also there were some regular, experienced birdwatchers there with their scopes: an couple of optolyth 80's , a leica apo77, and an opticron classic with a hdf zoom. We were able to look through all of these which were pretty good, the classic , despite being much cheaper than the others gave a really good clear, sharp image. I got to talking about my being about to buy a new scope and the nickon ed78, that i had decided upon, without exception all the birders said unfavourable things about the nikon and suggested that my other choice, the opticron es 80 ga ed would be a much better buy, which helped me make my final decision to get one. Got really good deal from Warehouse express : angled scope, with 32xww hdf eyepiece, free stay-on case, and free opticron hide clamp, i added a 20-60x hdf zoom and padded eyepiece case to the order and got the lot inc next day delivery, all for £660. not bad eh! . Yet to try it out, but hope to do so tomorrow (weather permitting !) , i'm sure given the favourable reports on here that my wife and i are going to enjoy it! .
Regards Phil.

[scampo]

Nikon... unfavourable... without exception? I wonder how many of those birders can ever have used a Nikon scope? That was very odd advice indeed as in the literature Nikon scopes scopes are invariably very highly regarded and have always been universally well reviewed - indeed often equated with the best available. I would have been intrigued to hear those birders' objective criticisms!

Anyway - you ended up with a fine scope and two very useful eyepieces so you'll soon be enjoying the wonderful sights they will bring. A good scope is a revelation - literally.

[Grousemore]

The Leica Apo62 better than the Swaro 80...nice one Fender,obviously a man with a discerning eye!

[mickporter]

It is impossible to buy a scope purely from recommendation. Everyone on here will vere towards their own chosen scopes.

Recently I was in the lucky position where an insurance policy had paid out. I was able to choose a new scope from the whole range. I read all the reports on here and in magazines, before I went looking.

I am fortunate enough to live close to both InFocus and FocalPoint. I visited both and looked through lots of scopes. I initially set my heart on an opticron. Then looked through a Nikon 82. Wow the difference was apparent to me straight away. The problem was I could not get on with the different focusing wheel of the Nikon. I quickly dismissed the Leica.

I looked again, this time at the Swaro 80 HD and the Zeiss85. The swaro was the most expensive of the bunch and I assumed the best. Unfortunatly with my eyes (I do not have the best eyesight in the world!) I found the Swarovski much duller than I had expected. It was probably the best made of all I saw! Then I looked into the Zeiss and hey presto it was bright, wide field of view, clear as crystal and suited me to the ground. I could even cope with the two wheel focusing. It was perfect for me and I bought it, and have not regretted it since.

The Zeiss in a recent magazine review came out a poor third or forth. But to my eyes it far outstrips all the rivals.

I cannot say it is a better or worse scope that any other. No one can. All it is possible to say is that it is the best for me. It probably will not be better for you or lots of others. It is a personal choice. I love it, others will probably hate it. Thats life.

What I am trying to say is go to a retailer or fair that has all the brands for veiwing. Obviously your budget rules the choices, but look very carefully through all the options in your price bracket. Do not just choose the most expensive cause you can afford it, cause that may not be the right choice for you. Buy the combination that lets you do all that you want. Choose wisely my friend otherwise you may well be posting here again next year looking for a part exchange.......

[scampo]

Wise advice and well put, Mick.

[fender]

I agree with your comments Mick, we are all individuals, with our own perspectives, and i feel that i have chosen wisely, and now both myself and my wife look forward to some enlightening experiences with our first scope. I agree with Scampo, it certainly has been a revelation for us, and realise now how much we have been missing, just using binoculars. Regards Phil.