Why the plummeting prices?

[Backdoor Man]

I just ordered a pair of Minox 62170 BD 10x42 BR's for $250 USD brand-new. These originally retailed for around $600 USD I think.
I know they're a discontinued model but still whats the reason for them being so cheap? Is there anything wrong with them?
They're replacing my Monarch ATB 10x42's which also cost me $250 brand-new. I hope the Minox's will be a signifigant upgrade.

[Steve]

Welcome to BF.

[Backdoor Man]

Thank you Steve.
Also, can anyone confirm if this model is Made in Japan?

[jgraider]

I'd call it competition. When things don't sell well you discount them until they start moving. Could be the economy also.

[ceasar]

Nobody has been able to figure out where Minox has their binoculars made AFAIK. The model you are inquiring about appears to be discontinued. It is also being sold at a large discount at Camera Land NY.

http://www.cameralandny.com/optics/minox.pl?page=62123

It's a real good buy at that price, with it's aspheric technology. I'd guess it is made in Japan. I have a BD10 x 32BR Asph and it is pretty good.

Bob

[Backdoor Man]

Nobody has been able to figure out where Minox has their binoculars made AFAIK. The model you are inquiring about appears to be discontinued. It is also being sold at a large discount at Camera Land NY.

http://www.cameralandny.com/optics/minox.pl?page=62123

It's a real good buy at that price, with it's aspheric technology. I'd guess it is made in Japan. I have a BD10 x 32BR Asph and it is pretty good.

Bob

The one I picked up is actually a slightly newer model and was $50 cheaper.
It should be showing up on Friday.
Gonna take it out glassing for deer on Saturday. Can't wait.

[Kammerdiner]

I recently looked at the BD 10x42 and they have a very small sticker that, if I recall correctly, said they were made in China, not Japan. A nice bin, by the way, very compact but solid heft. The extra weight may steady them.

Of course I put them up against a Pentax 8x32 ED, and then an 8x32 SE and frankly I didn't see any advantage to the 10x in that comparison.

Minox has revamped nearly the whole line this Fall, with expanded FOV's on the HG's, brand new BL's, etc. Could be serious contenders now.

I've always thought the Minox bins looked great, understated and serious, and those BD's are no exception.

[Backdoor Man]

I recently looked at the BD 10x42 and they have a very small sticker that, if I recall correctly, said they were made in China, not Japan. A nice bin, by the way, very compact but solid heft. The extra weight may steady them.

Of course I put them up against a Pentax 8x32 ED, and then an 8x32 SE and frankly I didn't see any advantage to the 10x in that comparison.

Minox has revamped nearly the whole line this Fall, with expanded FOV's on the HG's, brand new BL's, etc. Could be serious contenders now.

I've always thought the Minox bins looked great, understated and serious, and those BD's are no exception.

Thanks for the info.
I was hoping they were made in Japan but for $250 I guess I can't expect that much. However for that price I'm expecting to get a nice upgrade from my Nikons so I think I'll make out OK in the end.

[mayoayo]

Thanks for the info.
I was hoping they were made in Japan but for $250 I guess I can't expect that much. However for that price I'm expecting to get a nice upgrade from my Nikons so I think I'll make out OK in the end.

I am pretty sure they are made in Japan,I remember the sticker in the body,but I think it said japan,also the box ,may have information on the origen of the binos,dont remember...I used to own the BD 8x32,personally didnt like them that much,due to ergonomics,armor smell (bad)and excessive glare,..but the image is bright and sharp,and the unit feels very well made.
I am very sensitive to smells,and glare,.But most reviewers like the BD a lot,.They probably will do an excellent job

[Backdoor Man]

I figured for the money I couldn't go wrong.
Like I said I'm upgrading from Nikon Monarch ATB 10x42's which cost me $200 (after the rebate) and the Minox's were only $250 shipped so what the heck.
I originally upgraded my Monarchs (last week) with some Monarch X 10.5x45's that I got off ebay for $485 shipped (another steal) but when I received them I discovered they don't have a screw-in spot on the front for a tripod so that was a real deal breaker for me.
Nothing seems to really be right with those Monarch X's... they have the dielectric coating like the EDG bins but Nikon put that bar down the middle of them that basically kills the bridgeless design. They don't have a tripod mount (Nikon suggested buying their universal mount that uses velcro...) and they typically sell for $600 so nothing seems to be adding up with those. And they're made in China.
Not that theres anything wrong with that its just I miss seeing "Made in Japan" on Nikon's focusing knobs and for that price you think they'd have it.

[RJM]

You know, these seemed like such an "interesting" deal I ordered a pair from Eagle Optics myself. $249 definitely puts them in value range of the Chinese imports like Vortex and Zen Ray and I'll take the German/Leica pedigree anyday over those even if they are Made in Kunming. Never really followed Minox much but they do have relatively lightweight, ergonomically friendly designs. Just hope they do turn out to be the latest/greatest #62170!

cheers,
Rick

[Backdoor Man]

You know, these seemed like such an "interesting" deal I ordered a pair from Eagle Optics myself. $249 definitely puts them in value range of the Chinese imports like Vortex and Zen Ray and I'll take the German/Leica pedigree anyday over those even it they are Made in Kunming. Never really followed Minox much but they do have relatively lightweight, ergonomically friendly designs. Just hope they do turn out to be the latest/greatest #62170!

cheers,
Rick

I was concerned about the exact model too because on the website they list it as the 62170 and the photo is also the 62170 but the name "Minox BD 10x42 BR ALT" and the product specs like weight, dimensions etc. are actually for the 62123 which is the older model.
Don't fear tho I called them up yesterday and got the customer service person to fetch the box and he confirmed the product code on it was 62170 :t:
Update: Looks like they're now sold out!

[RJM]

Woke up to the FEDEX shipping notice so I know I got mine! Should be delivered Friday to my US address then forwarded on to me.

Wonder if it was their last one? It was after midnight here in Tokyo when I impulsively pulled the trigger after doing only about 30min of due diligence. Went to bed right afterwards. Thanks for checking it out!

cheers,
Rick

[spacepilot]

Update: Looks like they're now sold out!

I've been debating all day today whether to get the BD 10x42 or not. They seem a good value, but should I spend the money when I'm saving up for water-proof bins that rivals the image of the SE's? Now I don't have the problem. ;) But please do let us know how you like them BD's when you get them! B (:

Ning

[Backdoor Man]

Theres still a few places to get them for $300 I think..
but sure, I will let you know how they are when I get them.
I'm no glass expert tho but I will be looking for whitetail with them on Saturday and will tell you guys how they work compared to my ATB's.

[ceasar]

I just looked over my Minox BD 10 x 32 BR's and the box they came in and the papers enclosed. There is no hint of where they were manufactured. The only address on the box is Wetzlar, Germany.
Bob

[RJM]

I would still bet they are made in SE Asia. If they were made in Japan or Germany they would have a label somewhere. No matter to me. All my electronics and camera gear is made there too and no one squeals about that!

But that does not mean I am brand ambivalent either. Brand name products hold their resale prices over non-brands even if the non-brands are superior values. Learned that brand "value" lesson shortly after moving here to the Big Mikan where brands are big biz.

Anyway, all the aspheric lens bino's I've looked through seem have fairly decent edge performance IF they can control the field curvature. If these can, I'd be thrilled with this "low-rent" Leica Ultravid BL cousin!

cheers,
Rick

[Backdoor Man]

I just looked over my Minox BD 10 x 32 BR's and the box they came in and the papers enclosed. There is no hint of where they were manufactured. The only address on the box is Wetzlar, Germany.
Bob

Kind of like my Leupold VX-3 scope..
Its a gold ring so I know its made in the US but there was nothing on the scope or in the paperwork that said MADE IN THE USA beyond the US address on the box. You'd think that'd be something they'd really advertise.
However stating the COO (Country of Origin) is a big deal with goods coming out of Asia because of customs. However domestic brands obviously don't have to worry about stating it if they don't want to and European brands don't seem to advertise their COO much either (might have something to do with trade agreements. From my manufacturing experience China LOVES having their name stamped on goods and its the law anyways).
Also the Minox's are supposed to have a small COO sticker on them anyways so maybe yours fell off?

[spacepilot]

Theres still a few places to get them for $300 I think..
but sure, I will let you know how they are when I get them.
I'm no glass expert tho but I will be looking for whitetail with them on Saturday and will tell you guys how they work compared to my ATB's.

Spending part of the $300 on some wind-worthy clothes probably will probably help my winter birding much more than a $300 glass. Here's what I've been finding out in the last weeks: you need a lot more insulation if you are mostly standing or sitting still than when you are walking about. ;)

Ning

[Backdoor Man]

Yeah thats for sure.
I bought some 400g insulated boots which I've never owned before because I live in Southern Arizona but if you're sitting on your keister just using your binos for a couple hours at a time on cold winter mornings its pretty easy to catch a chill.

[Ardy]

EO has them back in stock...

[RJM]

And the HG Rangefinder series is all 55% off. These are definitely Made In Wetzlar Germany! The HG 10x43 BR specs are pretty sweet... only $580 too!

cheers,
Rick

[spacepilot]

So far, I've only seen people talking about the Alphas as weather-worthy alternatives to the Nikon SE's. How do the images of the HG compare to the SE's? Do they offer 95% of the optical performance for 25% of the price of the Alphas?

Ning

[Tero]

Spending part of the $300 on some wind-worthy clothes probably will probably help my winter birding much more than a $300 glass. Here's what I've been finding out in the last weeks: you need a lot more insulation if you are mostly standing or sitting still than when you are walking about. ;)

Ning

I see a lot of people in winter never leave the car. They use a window mounted scope. The car, even with the window open, is good wind protection.

I do get out of my car, but the walks are short in winter.

[davem]

And the HG Rangefinder series is all 55% off. These are definitely Made In Wetzlar Germany!

At the risk of turning this into a Pantomime...

Oh no they're not!

The "new" HGs which are on the minox.com website (don't think they have been launched yet) are claimed to be made in Germany but the original HG range was made in Japan.

The BLs and BVs are from China. The original (heavy) BDs (eg 62122 / 62123 / 62124) I think were made in Japan but I'm not sure where the newer lighter versions (62170 etc) are made - possibly China but don't quote me on that as we never brought them into the UK when we distributed Minox as the price was simply far too close to the HG price.

HTH

Dave.

[Backdoor Man]

When I get home from work tonight and tear open the Fedex box that should be on my doorstep I'll let you guys know where the BD's are made.

[RJM]

The "new" HGs which are on the minox.com website (don't think they have been launched yet) are claimed to be made in Germany but the original HG range was made in Japan.

Like I said, I have never really followed Minox since they don't have a strong presence here in Japan BUT it is pretty clear from the press release, sales brochure and website that both the current APO HG and HG employ Schott glass and are Made in Germany.

I have the BD coming in about a week and it really doesn't matter to me.

cheers,
Rick

[ceasar]

When I get home from work tonight and tear open the Fedex box that should be on my doorstep I'll let you guys know where the BD's are made.

Good Luck!
Bob

[Backdoor Man]

The are Made in China.
Kind of a bummer but not the end of the world for only costing $250.
First impression- they have some serious heft to them!
They do have a faint odor too but that usual goes away from stuff like that after awhile (I kind of like the smell of rubber anyways 8-P).
The "armor" on the bins also seems to scratch really easily. The rubber is waay too soft.
The view in them is good tho. I'm able to pick out a lot more trees at the very top of the mountains outside my patio a lot better than with my Nikons.
They are also brighter and a little crisper than the Nikons too.

[ceasar]

Like I said, I have never really followed Minox since they don't have a strong presence here in Japan BUT it is pretty clear from the press release, sales brochure and website that both the current APO HG and HG employ Schott glass and are Made in Germany.

I have the BD coming in about a week and it really doesn't matter to me.

cheers,
Rick

Perhaps it is made in Europe? But it doesn't sound economically feasible to manufacture a single line in Europe and the rest of the lines in East Asia. Even if Schott glass is used. It would be cheaper to ship the glass blanks to Asia to make the lenses. The costs of production materials, setup and the hiring of experienced technicians etc. in Europe would be onerous. Of course, the binocular could be farmed out to Leica. This would help keep Leica's work force active during slow periods and avoid lay offs.

Leica would never admit this of course. They only make one grade of binocular.

Or all the parts could be made in East Asia and shipped back to Germany for final assembly. I believe this is what Leupold does with some of their lines. So............? Find out if Minox's work force in Germany is up to the task of doing this!

Bob

[Kammerdiner]

As a weatherproof alternative to 8x32 SE, I'd like to know how good the $399 8x33 HG's are. I actually ordered a pair from Cameraland, then saw that they had a fantastic deal on demo Zeiss 8x32's and switched my order.

Put simply, the Zeiss do the job. They aren't quite SE's (what the heck is?!?), but I'm entirely satisfied.

Still, I'd love to know what those HG's would have been like.

Mark

[iveljay]

For me the 8x 33 HGs have the best handling but the 8x 32 FLs have the superior view, its neck and neck which ones I use.

Havn't seen any of the new 2009 range of HGs yet but it will be interesting to see if the new APOs can justify their price...

N.B. I can only compare them to EIIs but neither have the same wow factor.

[davem]

Like I said... it is pretty clear from the press release, sales brochure and website that both the current APO HG and HG employ Schott glass and are Made in Germany.

cheers,
Rick

Rick, it's the NEW HG and APO HGs (with wider FOV) that claim to be made in Germany - the current ones are from Japan. Both versions of both models use Schott Glass.

[ceasar]

Like I said, I have never really followed Minox since they don't have a strong presence here in Japan BUT it is pretty clear from the press release, sales brochure and website that both the current APO HG and HG employ Schott glass and are Made in Germany.

I have the BD coming in about a week and it really doesn't matter to me.

cheers,
Rick

One more thing about where Optical parts are made.

Schott North America has an Optical Plant here in Pennsylvania near where I live. It employs about 300 people. It makes Optical Glass for the military among many other items.

http://www.us.schott.com/english/index.html

Bob

[RJM]

The are Made in China.
Kind of a bummer but not the end of the world for only costing $250.
First impression- they have some serious heft to them!
They do have a faint odor too...

Mine were delivered to my USA address Saturday. Did you recieve the latest model 62170? If so, then 690g is actually pretty lightweight for a 10x42mm bino with aluminum body and rubber armour. No big deal about Made in China. $249 for a Minox is a bargain even compared to the top grade "Brand XYZ" China bins being touted in this forum now.

Rick

[pete_gamby]

The "Made in Germany" models are indeed only assembled in Germany from parts from, er, "not Germany" shall we say :-)

[Backdoor Man]

Mine were delivered to my USA address Saturday. Did you recieve the latest model 62170? If so, then 690g is actually pretty lightweight for a 10x42mm bino with aluminum body and rubber armour. No big deal about Made in China. $249 for a Minox is a bargain even compared to the top grade "Brand XYZ" China bins being touted in this forum now.

Rick

Yep it was the 62170.
I guess you're right about the weight too. I was mostly just comparing them to my Monarch's which are polycarbonate but aluminum is gonna be a lot tougher so thats fine.
I was out in the field with them for about 9 hours yesterday doing some serious hiking and the weight wasn't that bad.
I can't tell if its just me or not (don't remember if my Monarch's had the same thing) but there definitely seems to be slight blurring/sweet spot thing going on.
I might just have to mess with the diopter adjustment a little. Other than that the view out of them is great.

[brocknroller]

The are Made in China.
Kind of a bummer but not the end of the world for only costing $250.
First impression- they have some serious heft to them!
They do have a faint odor too but that usual goes away from stuff like that after awhile (I kind of like the smell of rubber anyways 8-P).
The "armor" on the bins also seems to scratch really easily. The rubber is waay too soft.
The view in them is good tho. I'm able to pick out a lot more trees at the very top of the mountains outside my patio a lot better than with my Nikons.
They are also brighter and a little crisper than the Nikons too.

That delightful "aroma" might be toxic! We discussed this on BF awhile back and I posted some info, but didn't bookmark it.

Here's a quote from Ron Harper on Cloudy Nights about the discussion:

"Over on birdforum there was recently a discussion of a test in which the "toxic vapors" emitted by binoculars were measured for a few brands, and ratings given. They were looking at expensive roof types, and the worst was Minox, and the best was Swarovski. It seems it's difficult to make a rubber type coating that is soft to touch without mixing in some volatile plasticisers, which tend to be pretty nasty chemicals."

Btw, there is a Minox 8x33 HG for sale on Amart for $300 (add $40 extra for canister gas mask :-).

http://www.astromart.com/classifieds/details.asp?classified_id=650750

[NDhunter]

Brock and others:
How do you think that the 8x33 HG would compare to the Nikon 8x32, in either LX
or LXL, that is a size that I am thinking about getting, without the budget getting
out of hand.

[ceasar]

Brock and others:
How do you think that the 8x33 HG would compare to the Nikon 8x32, in either LX
or LXL, that is a size that I am thinking about getting, without the budget getting
out of hand.

I can give you a comparison of near relatives of both of the binoculars you mention. I have the Minox BD 10 x 32 BR ASPH and the Nikon 10 x 32 LX L. The Minox is pretty good. I got it as a Demo for $380.00 and I think it was worth the money, but it is not in the class with the Nikon which is an "Alpha" all the way! The Nikon has a bigger FOV, a larger "sweet spot" and much better edge sharpness. I haven't tried the other Alpha's in this configuration and frankly, I don't think I need to. I'm more than satisfied with the Nikons! I also have the 8 x 32 LX L but the only other 8's I own that I can compare it to are the Nikons 8 x 32 SE and 8 x 30 E II and although it is not quite as good in some aspects as these Porro's, it can hold it's own against them without any trouble.
Bob

PS: By the way, the Minox's, when new, did have a bit of a petroleum like odor to them, but it is long gone now.

[brocknroller]

Brock and others:
How do you think that the 8x33 HG would compare to the Nikon 8x32, in either LX
or LXL, that is a size that I am thinking about getting, without the budget getting
out of hand.

Well, the LX is easier to use, because with the Minox, it's hard to get my eyes close enough to the eyepieces with my MCU-2A/P Chemical–Biological Gas Mask on (see link below).

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=215948

From my experience with the LX and LX L, IMESHO, the LX has better optics and there isn't much difference in weight btwn the midsized models (~ 2 ounces) so the "L" version (wish that stood for "L" glass not "Lousy" :-) doesn't offer a great advantage weight-wise like it does in the full sized models.

I'm probably too harsh on the LX L by calling it "Lousy," but I paid a small fortune for mine and was very disappointed, and since Nikon is still making them ("Premier LX L"), I like to give people fair warning that they might be better off with a used LX.

Now, I haven't tried a 8x32 LX L or a 10x32 LX L, so I can't tell you about those, I would have and compare them to my LX before I could give a definitive answer. I'm fairly confident that the 8x42 LX L has the same optical characteristics as the 10x42 LX L. Probably better CA control.

But the full sized 10x42 LX L was not on par with the 10x42 LX, which I also owned (and returned because the coatings were defective). The original LX (Venturer) has better contrast and color rendition (what you see is what you get, with the LX L, the color palette is skewed warmer, i.e., reds are a bit orangey)

The LX L has just as good resolution as the LX, but the coatings are biased toward the yellow to make the views look brighter. Hence, the color palette difference.

Unfortunately, in bright sunlight, the LX L's brightness overwhelms the contrast on brightly illuminated objects, and you lose detail. I could see more detail on a brightly lit leaf with my 8x32 LX than I could with my 10x42 LX L.

In low light or overcast days when you have less concentrated light (i.e., no "hot spots"), the LX L looks brighter, but it still shows more CA than the LX.

At first, I was a "voice in the wilderness" on this topic, but as the LX L's came down in price and more people got them into their hands, I've read more comments along the same lines.

The rubber armoring is also softer on the "LX Ls". The 10x42 I had was colored dark brown, not black, and the smooth soft surface on top of the bin scuffed very easily, as I've read does the Minox, which also has a soft rubber armoring.

It did have a more luxurious feel than the LX, but the trade-off was that it wore much more easily. However, I did not notice an offense rubber odor, and Klingons have more sensitive noses than humans, so I would have noticed.

If money were no object, I would buy both the Minox APO-HG and the LX, and then put the Minox objectives in the LX so I'd have the excellent EPs of the LX and the better color correction of an APO bin. Don't try this at home folks, leave it to the professionals.

Or to make things easier, I'd just buy the 8x32 FL from Camera Land for $749 like Ardy! That's what I'd do. You betcha (don't you miss hearing that phrase?).

I haven't tried a Minox HG yet, and from odors and rumors of odors, I'm not likely to, however, here's a thread that asks the same question you did.

One of the posters had tried both and made a comparison:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2480247/Nikon_LX_L_vs_Minox_HG

[Kammerdiner]

In terms of comparisons, I wouldn't put the BD against the LX L. The HG is a whole different line, with silver coatings, etc. I think you'd have to get the HG against an LX L to know what's what.

In terms of odors, I just got a new Zeiss and it smells, too. As for the supposed toxicity of Minox, I'd be skeptical. All new plastics and rubber compounds ooze plasticizers for a while. I recently tried a new Minox BD and I'd say it smelled about the same as this new Zeiss. Now, some of these particular chemicals may be better/worse than others, but my guess is when the smell goes away you've got nothing to worry about. Worry about plastic food containers instead (e.g. bisphenols in Lexan) cause you're EATING that stuff.

Mark

[brocknroller]

In terms of comparisons, I wouldn't put the BD against the LX L. The HG is a whole different line, with silver coatings, etc. I think you'd have to get the HG against an LX L to know what's what.

In terms of odors, I just got a new Zeiss and it smells, too. As for the supposed toxicity of Minox, I'd be skeptical. All new plastics and rubber compounds ooze plasticizers for a while. I recently tried a new Minox BD and I'd say it smelled about the same as this new Zeiss. Now, some of these particular chemicals may be better/worse than others, but my guess is when the smell goes away you've got nothing to worry about. Worry about plastic food containers instead (e.g. bisphenols in Lexan) cause you're EATING that stuff.

Mark

Mark,

Yes, once the rubber armoring has outgassed, the bins should be okay, but until it does, you're breathing in those odors.

However, since you use bins outdoors, that's probably not nearly as harmful as breathing in the "new car smell" inside an automobile.

I find that strong rubber odors bother my lungs. So I probably couldn't tolerate using a Minox or the original Zeiss Victory even if they weren't toxic.

I read about one bin owner baking his Fujinons FMTRs at 110* F until he got the odor out of it!

The problem with doing this, of course, is that you need very good ventilation otherwise you're going to breathe in the chemicals in greater concentration.

I'm not sure how toxic the chemicals are in soft rubber armoring, but they did a study awhile back, which I referred to earlier, that did show the Minox rubber armoring gave off toxic fumes. If I find the original source, I will post it.

Certainly in higher concentrations and chronic exposures, chemical fumes can be harmful. Studies conducted in Eastern Block countries that were heavily industrialized without any pollution control during the "Soviet Error" showed a correlation of lung ailments and cancers, particularly in children, and the nearby chemical processing plants and manufacturing plants where they lived.

Yes, bisphenols in plastics are a more immediate concern to most of us. They have an estrogen-like response in the body. A study conducted in England of sperm counts, comparing sons and fathers, showed that the sons actually had significantly less sperm. They think this is due to bisphenols.

Young girls are also developing breasts at an earlier age due to bisphenols.

I'm in the process of switching from plastic food storage containers to glass bottles. As long as the bottles weren't made in China... with lead... I should be better off.

[falcondude]

The are Made in China.
Kind of a bummer but not the end of the world for only costing $250.
First impression- they have some serious heft to them!
They do have a faint odor too but that usual goes away from stuff like that after awhile (I kind of like the smell of rubber anyways 8-P).
The "armor" on the bins also seems to scratch really easily. The rubber is waay too soft.
The view in them is good tho. I'm able to pick out a lot more trees at the very top of the mountains outside my patio a lot better than with my Nikons.
They are also brighter and a little crisper than the Nikons too.


Thanks for the infomation. I thought they were made in Germany.But the price does spell like made in China.

Can you wipe the scratch off from the armor? For that, I do like the hard rubber cover like EL.

[Backdoor Man]

Can you wipe the scratch off from the armor?

It seems like you can. Obviously not deep ones but light ones actually seem to rub off.
And as far as the odor I don't smell it anymore and I've only owned them for about 3 days.

[brocknroller]

It seems like you can. Obviously not deep ones but light ones actually seem to rub off.
And as far as the odor I don't smell it anymore and I've only owned them for about 3 days.

Wow! You must have some lung capacity if you could suck out all those toxic fumes in only 3 days. :-)

Of course, it would have been much funnier if you had written:

And as far as the odor, I still smell it but I've only owned them for about 3 years.

That was a great price! I've seen these bins selling for $549, and considering they were made in China, same as the $200 Leupold Cascades porros, which have the same specs and an internal focuser, that price was a BIG rip off! Cashing in on the German name. Shame on you, Minox.

OTOH, you have to credit Minox for making a lift-up cap to reach the (right/left?) EP diopter adjustment on the center focus that actually works unlike Nikon's first run EDG.

Here's a review of the 10x44 BD:
http://www.campinglife.com/output.cfm?ID=1166851


Back Door Man
By “Little Willie" Dixon

Argh! Huh!
Whoah, yeah.
Yeah! C'mon! Yeah!

Oh, yeah, I'm a — yeah,
I'm a birdwatchin’ back door man,
I'm a back door man.
The men don't know,
But the little birds understand.

While all you birders are tryin' to catch some zzzs,
I'm outside owling with my new Minox BDs — yeah,
'Cause I'm a birdwatchin’ back door man.
The men don't know
But the little birds understand.
All right, yeah!

[RJM]

That was a great price! I've seen these bins selling for $549, and considering they were made in China, same as the $200 Leupold Cascades porros, which have the same specs and an internal focuser, that price was a BIG rip off! Cashing in on the German name. Shame on you, Minox.

Oh c'mon Brock-zilla. I expect better of you! Even if they had the same specs (and they don't) you know by now that just because they look similar (and don't most bins anyway?) it doesn't mean they are. And in this case, they clearly aren't Cascade clones.

Anyway, I live by the maxim that when you see gold selling for the price of silver, back up the truck. No denying the Minox pedigree has some value even if the bins may be only mediocre. $249 shipped made it a no-brainer in my book.

cheers,
Rick

[brocknroller]

Oh c'mon Brock-zilla. I expect better of you! Even if they had the same specs (and they don't) you know by now that just because they look similar (and don't most bins anyway?) it doesn't mean they are. And in this case, they clearly aren't Cascade clones.

Anyway, I live by the maxim that when you see gold selling for the price of silver, back up the truck. No denying the Minox pedigree has some value even if the bins may be only mediocre. $249 shipped made it a no-brainer in my book.

cheers,
Rick

Tokyo Rick,

I didn't say they were the same bin, only that they had the same specs, or if you want to be a stickler, similar:

Minox BD vs. Leupold Cascades

ER: Both 16mm
FOV: 5*; 5.2*
Close Focus: 11.15'; 13'
Weight: 28 oz./25.4 oz.
Made in: China
Focus: Both Internal
Diopter adjustment: On the center focus "wheel"

We're not talking about mid-priced roof clones or Chinese big bins clones, which have proven to be rebadged versions of the same bins.

However, if they don't have the same optics, there might have been some corporate spying going on, or one might have been reverse engineered from the other, because what are the chances of two companies bringing out the first porros with internal focusers with close to the same specs within a year or two of each other?

I agree with your maxim (though are you really buying a whole truckload to sell in Tokyo? :-), but now that I know they are both made in China, I don't think that the Minox badge gives the BD more "pedigree" than the Cascades anymore than an "Astrophysics" badge on a 10.5x70 or 15x70 IF EP big Chinese bin gives it "pedigree" since they come from the same factory in China.

Although I guess you're "banking" on that illusion to sell your truckload of BDs at a nice profit when the economy picks up again! :-)

The Minox focuser does seem better designed (the thin, spiny wheel on the Cascades is Bush League, IMO) so I do think the Minox should sell for a bit more, but I stick by my original statement that at $549, they were a rip off.

And the proof is in the puddin'. If they can afford to sell them for $259 and still turn a profit... well, you're in finance, I expect better of you! :-)

I know a guy who had both bins, in fact, he bought them back to back, and he said that optically, he couldn't see any difference btwn them.

The nose room on the Minox was a bit tighter than the Leupold. With my ample proboscis (wow! I really have learned how to spell the word), I'd be turning the focuser with my nose!

I haven't tried the Minox yet, so I can't confirm or deny his observations. However, I can say that the ergonomic design of the Leupold is superb (SE-like). They feel great in my hands and Leupold put extra rubber cushioning where your thumbs rest on the bottom, which is right where you need it.

However, the focuser was too tight and so was the FOV, which is why I didn't buy them (had them on "spec").

If Leupold or Minox had designed these bins with a degree wider FOV (7.5*), I would own a pair (a good sample, with Chinese bins, you sometimes have to buy more than one to get a good sample - the seller I got them from had SIX pairs, probably part of a truckload :-).

If you have tired both bins, perhaps then you could explain why the Minox BD deserved to sell for $349 more than the Leupold (a difference of more than the price they are selling for now!). And don't say "pedigree"! :-)

Kahless the Unforgettable Lives!

[RJM]

If you have tired both bins, perhaps then you could explain why the Minox BD deserved to sell for $349 more than the Leupold (a difference of more than the price they are selling for now!). And don't say "pedigree"! :-)

Kahless the Unforgettable Lives!

Kahless clearly gets paid by the word but continues to get the facts wrong.

http://www.leupold.com/observation/products/binoculars/cascades-series/cascades-10x42mm

vs.

the Minox BD under discussion, http://www.minox.com/index.php?id=1657&L=1

Rick

[brocknroller]

Kahless clearly gets paid by the word but continues to get the facts wrong.

http://www.leupold.com/observation/products/binoculars/cascades-series/cascades-10x42mm

vs.

the Minox BD under discussion, http://www.minox.com/index.php?id=1657&L=1

Rick

Thanks to the greedy bankers ruining the economy, and the resulting fall off in advertising, the business journal can no longer afford to pay me "per word" but only "per truckload of words". :-)

I was not comparing those two Minox roofs, though I can see from Minox's confounding lettering designations (the Website you posted lists the roof as "BD 10x42 BR" and the porro as "BD 10x44 BP") why this and the sale prices being the same could have caused a miscue (on top of English being our second language).

I was comparing the internal focus Minox BD 10x44 BP porro that normally sells for the inflated price of $529, which is now on sale for $259 @ B & H Photo:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/404637-USA/Minox_62151_10x44_BD_BP_Binocular.html

with the internal focus Leupold 8x42 Cascades porro:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/419002-USA/Leupold_60643_10x42_Wind_River_Cascades.html

[falcondude]

The Minox focuser does seem better designed (the thin, spiny wheel on the Cascades is Bush League, IMO) so I do think the Minox should sell for a bit more, but I stick by my original statement that at $549, they were a rip off.



Did anyone ever pay $549 for that? Maybe the $549 is more like a "I wish I could sell this for $549, but I am pretty happy with $249 too". Has anyone compare this to new Bushnell Excursion or Vortex Diamondback considering that they are all Chinese imports?

[brocknroller]

Did anyone ever pay $549 for that? Maybe the $549 is more like a "I wish I could sell this for $549, but I am pretty happy with $249 too". Has anyone compare this to new Bushnell Excursion or Vortex Diamondback considering that they are all Chinese imports?

Falcondewd,

$549 is the MSRP. With German-made bins (even though the "BD BP" is allegedly made in Japan), you usually don't see the kind of steep discounts mit Leica, und Zeiss, und Optolyth, und Docter, und so weiter like you do with Japanese and Chinese bins. That is, unless they are sold w/out the original box. :-)

Yes, the economy is so bad that even Zeiss got into the act a few months ago when Eagle Optics had an "open box" sale (which was really a "no box" sale), discounting Zeiss FLs for $600 off, because somebody forgot to put them in their boxes (yeah, right).

So again, if Zeiss can sell an FL for $600 less than usual and still turn a profit (they would not sell them at a loss), you have to scratch your ridges and wonder how much the mark-up is, even taking into account the high wages and standard of living im Deutschland.

I have seen the BD BP sell for full price at several online stores. Only recently am I seeing the price starting to drop, but not significantly in most cases.

The lowest price I've seen was $399 on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Minox-BD-10x44-BP-Binocular/dp/B000LYTCW2

Eagle Optics sells them for $479:

http://www.eagleoptics.com/binoculars/minox/minox-bd-10x44-bp-binocular

Adorama still has them at $499:

http://www.adorama.com/MX1044BP.html

Night Vision Planet has the highest price at $599:

http://www.nightvisionplanet.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=Minox-62151&click=2

So $259 is a steal (but so was $549, but in the other direction :-).

Hawkster

[falcondude]

ah.. we are talking about different binos here. I was following OP's discussion on Minox BD BR (what a strange name) and you are referring Minox BD BP

The BD/BR is selling $250 on both NY camera store and Eagle optics. But the MSRP is ranging from $599 to $749.:-O

[ceasar]

ah.. we are talking about different binos here. I was following OP's discussion on Minox BD BR (what a strange name) and you are referring Minox BD BP

The BD/BR is selling $250 on both NY camera store and Eagle optics. But the MSRP is ranging from $599 to $749.:-O

For the record, the "R" in BR refers to "Roof" as in prism and the "P" in BP refers to Porro. So there is some method to this alphabetical maze
Bob.

[brocknroller]

For the record, the "R" in BR refers to "Roof" as in prism and the "P" in BP refers to Porro. So there is some method to this alphabetical maze
Bob.

Bob,

That sounds reasonable, although would that mean they are mixing abbreviations for both English and German words?

"B" in German optics designations means “Brille," the German word meaning suitable for spectacle wearers

If so, why repeat it twice?

BD BR
BD BP

"D" usually means "Dach" or roof

The BD BP is not a roof.

I find the double use of letters before and after the configuration overkill unlike most optics companies which only have letters after the name, e.g. Leica BA, Nikon SE, Pentax DCF, etc.

I would like to know what all those letters mean, and I would prefer if Minox used names for their bins rather than letters, though I realize this is a German tradition.

For example, Mercedes uses many letter designations (C, E, S, CLK, CLS, CL, SLK, SL, SLR, R ...). and combines them with numbers C230, E200, etc. The only word on their cars is "Kompressor" on the supercharged models.

Of course, a company can get carried away with both letters and names, e.g., Promaster Infinity Elite ELX ED.

There are other bins named Infinity, Elite, E, LX, and ED, although in the last term, it's a designation for the exotic glass type, so I can see that being necessary, but do they really need two names and three letters?

The thing about German that I like is that many words sound like the English equivalent.

Gras = grass
grün = green
blau = blue
über = over
in = in or im
this = dieses
High Grade = Hoher Grad (as in Minox HG)
drop = tropfen
I = ich
me = mich
to = zu
that = das (also "the" in neuter gender)
and = und
compressor = Kompressor

What I also like is that as with "Wojohowitz," you spells it like you says it, no silent letters like French.

What I don't like about Deutsch is they stick the verb at the end, so while you are reading the sentence you have no idea what action is going on until you get to the end.

I also don't like the way they make compound words by sticking many words togetherinalongstring, the longest beings:

Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübert ragungsgesetz

So long that BF's software won't allow all those letters to be strung together so it separated the "t" and "r" near the end.

(stick that in your Bablefish and watch what comes out! :-)

Das Ende

[ceasar]

Brock,
Some where in this forum is an explanation of what the letters mean and I'm too lazy to look for it but I do remember that the R stands for Roof and the P for Porro but only if they are used in the 2nd group of letters.

If I have a problem IDing which kind they are I show one to my dog, who can talk! I show him one and I say to him, "Furtwangler, what kind of Prism is in this binocular?" If he answers "rooof" (or more likely "ruff!" because he never learned to pronounce hochdeutsch), then I know it is a Dach prism. If it is a Porro he will not respond because he doesn't know Italian! After all, he is a DACHshund! Even though he pronounces it Daschhund.

Does that help clear things up?

Bob

[brocknroller]

ah.. we are talking about different binos here. I was following OP's discussion on Minox BD BR (what a strange name) and you are referring Minox BD BP

The BD/BR is selling $250 on both NY camera store and Eagle optics. But the MSRP is ranging from $599 to $749.:-O

Yes, I'm referring to the porros, which are on sale at B & H Photo for the same price - $259.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/404637-USA/Minox_62151_10x44_BD_BP_Binocular.html

[brocknroller]

Brock,
Some where in this forum is an explanation of what the letters mean and I'm too lazy to look for it but I do remember that the R stands for Roof and the P for Porro but only if they are used in the 2nd group of letters.

If I have a problem IDing which kind they are I show one to my dog, who can talk! I show him one and I say to him, "Furtwangler, what kind of Prism is in this binocular?" If he answers "rooof" (or more likely "ruff!" because he never learned to pronounce hochdeutsch), then I know it is a Dach prism. If it is a Porro he will not respond because he doesn't know Italian! After all, he is a DACHshund! Even though he pronounces it Daschhund.

Does that help clear things up?

Bob

Bob,

But what if the buyer is used to reading Japanese manga, which is read right to left? Then the letters in front of the configuration will be the 2nd set of letters. :-)

It's more confusing than it should be, IMO.

Look at Leica. In the designation "Leica BR" the "R" doesn't stand for "Roof" but "Rubber". The "BL" has Leatherette coverings.

Then look at Zeiss with its B/GA designation. The "B" is for "Brille" ("eyeglass," meaning good for eyeglass wearers), the "GA" is for "Gummiarmoring" (instead of an "R" for Rubber armoring).

I'm not suggesting that every optics manufacturing company in the world adopt German lettering (though the Japanese do use "D" = Dach for roofs), but at least the Germans should decide to either stick with German or use English rather than "mix and match" in different ways.

I think things would be less confusing if all optics manufacturers used the Klingon alphabet (tlhIngan pIqaD) in their designations and adopted universal standards with these letters.

http://www.kli.org/pics/piqdemo.gif

Although these fonts will not not reproduce on BF, mid-priced roofs would carry the designation in Klingon alphabet standing for TVR (tunnel vision roofs).

Alpha roofs would carry the designation of OPR (over priced roofs).

Premium porros would be labeled BB4UBP (best bang for your buck porros).

ZR, Hawke, and Promaster ED bins would carry the letters BB4UBR (best bang for your buck roofs).

Once the Klingon Empire forms an alliance with the Borg (and they agree not to assimilate Klingons), Klingons will take over the galaxy, and I will be named Galactic Emperor.

Then no longer will there be concerns about distinguishing ER, rubber armoring, close focus, etc. in designations, because all birding bins will be required to follow uniform KGO ("Klingon Galactic Order") standards.

These include:

1. A minimum usable ER of 17mm

2. A minimum of 7.5* FOV for 8x bins, 6* FOV for 10x

3 Non-toxic rubber armoring (leatherette is for sissies)

4. WP/FP.

5. Minimum close focus of 10'.

6. Minimum sweet spot of 70% of the field of view, regardless of TFOV.

8. Maximum "focus speed" from close focus to infinity of 1 turn, minimum of 1 1/2 turns.

10. High levels of chromatic aberration will be outlawed. Exotic glasses will be standard on all bins.

11. Gov't subsidies will be made available for poorer families to purchase bins (eventually poverty will be eradicated by outlawing "bubble and bust" economies, by providing free college education and technical training, having universal health care, putting caps on CEO salaries, bankers, brokers, hedge fund managers, sports players, actors, and all other overpaid earthlings who drive up the cost of products and services and drive down the benefits to those paid less, adopting a fair and simple tax system, and making trade that is not "free" without also being "fair". Under KGOs, journalism will be among the highest paid professions on earth).

12. All optics companies will be required to produce premium porros as part of their line.

13. All roofs will have wide shallow thumb indents to accommodate both smaller human hands and larger Klingon hands.

14. Nose relief on all bins will allow high bridged nosed and deep-set eyed humans and all Klingons to see the entire FOV.

I am open to listening to suggestions for other KGO standards as long as they do not negate the above 14 standards.

B'rock, GEIW (Galactic Emperor-in-Waiting).

---

When I came to earth from Quo'nos as as child, one of the first movies I watched was "Dr. Doolittle," but I assumed that it was merely a fantasy.

But now I find from reading BF that pigs can speak Latin, and dogs know how to translate German!

I also heard a crow "meow" like a cat in my backyard when my neighbor's cat was prowling through the woods.

What's next? Talking horses?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_PZPpWTRTU

[ceasar]

Yes Brock it is all very confusing!

In fact, in Jonathan Swift's definitive biography of Lemuel Gulliver he writes of Gulliver visiting an Island where Horses, indeed, did speak! And the dialect of Pig Latin, properly, Igpay Atinlay, has confused Linguists for ages. It's origin is as obscure as the origins of the Basque language which scholar's now think had it's beginning in the Neander Valley. Although some still favor the theory that it originated in Siberia after an astronomical incident. These people, however, seem to have been influenced by the Starwars Conspiracy Theory.

As for your binoculars and your galactic ambitions? If only you were able to channel that Greatest of all Optical Geniuses; Ming the Merciless..............?!!
Most Cordially,
Bob

[Tero]

Yes, the economy is so bad that even Zeiss got into the act a few months ago when Eagle Optics had an "open box" sale (which was really a "no box" sale), discounting Zeiss FLs for $600 off, because somebody forgot to put them in their boxes (yeah, right).
Nah, those are just the ones Frank sends back in one month.

I send some back too, usually with the neck strap sitll in plastic bag. ;)

[davem]

"B" in German optics designations means “Brille," the German word meaning suitable for spectacle wearers

If so, why repeat it twice?
BD BR
BD BP


For information - Minox designations - unless they've changed them in recent months...

The bits to ignore in the designations...
BR - Binocular Roof
BP - Binocular Porro

The important bits...

BD - Binocular design - external design from the VW design bureau
HG- High Grade
BL - Binocular Lightweight
BV - Binocular Value

Can't say for the new bits & pieces but that's about it.