Iberian Chiffchaff, Wirral

[Steve Round]

I have been photographing the Chiffchaff at Dibbinsdale NR this morning hopefully the photos will help decide whether it is Iberian or not. There are more images of it on my website

www.stevenround-birdphotography.com

Steve

[tom mckinney]

God that's weird. I was just looking at these on your website!

It looks very similar to the Skem bird.

Jane, anybody - is the alula very yellowy green or is it just the feathers on the breast side encroaching in the wing and appearing to be the alula??? The Skem bird had this same feature.

It certainly aint a bog standard April Chiff.

Well done Steve. I'll post my Skem bird pics if anyone would like to see just exactly how not to digiscope!

Tom.

[Harry Hussey]

Hi Tom/Steve,
While I agree that this bird at least looks a little different to Common Chiffchaff,it also looks nothing like 'classic' Iberian.As both races of the latter differ only on biometrics,then racial variation can't be used as a 'get out of jail free' card here.
Also,neither bird was stated to have given the full Iberian song,though I must stress that I have yet to hear recordings of either of them,or of the Northumbs bird from a while back,so I can't really offer any constructive comments in this case.
The general plumage similarities between the Cheshire and Lancs birds would suggest a common origin for both,whether that be geographic or biological(i.e.if both are hybrids,then they surely result from the same hybrid pairing,regardless of where that pairing took place).As I see it,the main options open to us are:
1)Iberian Chiffchaff can look and sound like this(unlikely,at least on present knowledge)
2)these are Common Chiffchaffs that have learned part of the song of Iberian
3)these are hybrid Common x Iberian(or perhaps Willow x Chiff?)
4)there is an undescribed population of 'chiffchaff sp' somewhere that could account for such birds
As is so often the case,there are more questions than answers at the moment,but so many discoveries come from a question being posed initially....
Harry

[tom mckinney]

Hi Harry,

I think you are completely correct in this not being an Iberian Chiffchaff. Even if it looked like one (which it doesn't) the fact that the song is not 100% correct means that on our current knowledge we have to consider either your 2nd or 4th suggestions.

If it is a hybrid and the Skem bird also (not to mention Michael F's Jesmond Dene bird), then someone needs to think long and hard about why they were split. But if it cannot be proven that it is a hybrid your 2nd & 4th suggestions seem the most likely.

Tom.

[Harry Hussey]

Hi Tom,
Agreed,I still favour suggestion no.2 myself,though am keeping an open mind in the absence of hard evidence.I would not call it as an Iberian,though.
Harry

[Michael Frankis]

Looks very different to the Woodhorn bird - compare John Malloy's pics, note the very yellow under-tail:
http://mysite.freeserve.com/JohnMalloyBirdPhotos/page4.html

Michael

[Andrew Whitehouse]

Great pictures Steve. First thing to say is that I have no idea what this bird really is and am not in a position to comment on what it might be. But I agree with Tom that, at least in these photographs, it doesn't look to me like a 'bog standard' collybita Chiffchaff. It may well just be the photographs but it looks to me to be a bit 'rangier'. It seems to have a slightly longer 'spikier' looking bill, is much sleeker and less pot-bellied than a collybita, and it looks a bit longer tailed (and possibly with a longer primary projection). To be honest, I'm not providing much in the way of hard evidence here, but it has to me a subtly different look and shape to a collybita. Still no idea what it is though.

[Jane Turner]

It def has a longer primary projection...and my money is on Chiff x Spanish Chiff - there is a hybrid zone and it would be sods law if those were the ones most prone to coming north!

[tom mckinney]

If that is the case Jane, then the same probably applies to the Jesmond & the Skem birds.

So Iberian Chiffchaff is maybe not a seperate species........?.......

[godwit]

"So Iberian Chiffchaff is maybe not a seperate species........?......."

I believe that one of the reasons why the species' were split was because, although they hybridise in a very limited area the offspring have zero or very reduced fertility (as deduced by mt DNA alalysis showing no significant gene flow, I think). I.e Iberian Chiff is a good species under the traditional Biological Species Concept as well as some of the more recent concepts. As for what these non-classical birds are I really don't know though the thought of a collybitta or abietinus wintering amongst, and learning part of the song of, Iberian must be taken seriously.

Dave

[Jane Turner]

This bird does have structual (small) ones too though - which is why I am backing a hybrid...

[PhilW]

I've got sound recording as wav. file. It's not very good as it was made with digital dictaphone and then transferred to PC using microphone.

It has colybitta chiffie in backgorund and is totally different. I have never heard Iberian and can't find a recording on web. This, however, is not a standard Chiffchaff song.

[Jane Turner]

I watched the bird interacting strongly with a nest building fem Chiffchaff - didn't see copulation but lots of display and folowing!

[Cuckoo-shrike]

Phil, see:

www.dutchbirding.nl/sounds/

There are three recordings of Iberian Chiff.

Andy

[PhilW]

Hi Andy
For some reason I can't play these on my laptop. I found them earlier today but can't open them. I'll try on home pc tomorrow. Local birder Steve Williams hs sent copy of my recording to guy who has expeience of Iberian Chiffchaff.

I don't know what bird is - as I said yesterday it looks like tristis but also looks identical to bird on following link: www.j.vdlaan.freeler.nl/brehmii.htm - 3k

[Rob Smallwood]

I went to see the Wirral bird for myself today.

Having no experience of the sp. I would not like to join the id debate, but the bird did look wrong for Chiffchaff to me, and certainly pumped its tail regularly and often when singing.

The tail and bill both appeared long, I was able to compare with a regular Chiffchaff and the difference was marked.

I have tried to find a match for the song (which I described in my notes as "Chiff, Chiff, Chiff," followed by a Chaffinch like " Der, Der, Der") on the internet and the best match I can find is the one below. I never heard it sing as a regular Chiffchaff would, although it sometimes stuck on the "Chiff, chiff, chiff" notes without the end trill. At least twice it followed the main song with two "Chiffs".

http://www.dutchbirding.nl/sounds/ib_chiff040501.mp3

I'm not qualified to judge, but if the attached song IS Iberian Chiffchaff, then the Dibbinsdale bird sure does a good impression!

[Binocularface]

Hi

Looking at Steve's images of the chiffchaff, the leg colour appears darkish red and thus lighter than you would expect from a typical nominate. Is this leg colour good for iberian?

Regards
Tristan

[Jane Turner]

Legs on all Phylloscs are variable.. but its not a bad feature!

[PhilW]

Tristan.
The juries still out but check the photo in the following link:

www.j.vdlaan.freeler.nl/brehmii.htm

Most people who have seen Dibbinsdale bird are convinced that it is genuine based on morphology and song. Interestingly a paper in Ibis Vol 145 Issue 1 87-97 states a geographical split between northern & southern races of Iberian Chiffchaff. With such variability there will always be some overlap of identification features. It's a shame the bird wasn't wearing a Spannish ring!!

I believe further sound recordings have been for analysis and a full description,backed up by photo's and some video footage have been passsed to the relevant people for verification.

As Jane says all Phylloscs are variable. The best way (if my memory serves me well) of confirming ID of Willow / Chiff in the hand was the emargination and length of the 6th primary!

At least there is one confirmed fact - Dibbinsdale lnr hasn't seen so much excitement for a while. Hopefully more people will visit and more records will be forthcoming. I went back myself at the weekend and found a totally unexpected singing Grasshopper Warbler and a pair of Mandarin.

[Steve Round]

I returned home last night, having been away since Saturday morning, I was hoping that the ID would have been confirmed, hopefully soon.
The bird has been singing very well and constantly this morning since I awoke at 6:00 and I can still hear it now as I type.

Phil, did you not get the Wood Warbler? that is singing well this morning also.
A few weeks ago there were up to 9 Mandarins on the reserve. I had a male Pied Flycatcher here a fortnight ago, that was a first here for me in the 5 years that I have lived here.

Steve

[PhilW]

Hi Steve.

No I didn't get Wood Warbler but I saw and heard one in Stanney Woods, E Port Saturday - the first their for at least 5 years. I believe Steve Williams heard Wood Warbler at Dibbinsdale as well.

There was Grasshopper Warbler singing at Bredons Hey over the weekend. Great pictures by the way!

[Jane Turner]

The Wood Warbler provoked the Chiffthing into singing "better" whch was interesting. I don't think you are going to get and ID confirmation on this until a lot more is known about Chiffchaffs. Its missing too many classic Iberian Chiff plumage features to be a simple decision. Not sure about that Dutch one either :)

[PhilW]

Did it?

[Jane Turner]

Yes... it was Chiff Chaff'ing mostly with the ocassional chiff chiff chiff... then the Woodie gave it a chase round and it low and behold it went tiff tiff tiff tiff pisspisspisspsspsspsspss (7 or 8 notes in the ending but mostly 7) for about 20 mins...

[PhilW]

Yes... it was Chiff Chaff'ing mostly with the ocassional chiff chiff chiff... then the Woodie gave it a chase round and it low and behold it went tiff tiff tiff tiff pisspisspisspsspsspsspss (7 or 8 notes in the ending but mostly 7) for about 20 mins...

This is getting wierd!
Do you know what's happened to the Skelmersdale bird Jane?
I heard a sonogram of it's call had been made and confirmed it as Iberian?
That was from someone I met at Inner Marsh Farm on Monday.

[Jane Turner]

I suspect that the jury will be out for the forseeable future about non-classic Iberian Chiffs. The Skem bird has nothing going for it plumage-wise or structurally!

[SRWilliams]

Hi All

Only just read this thread. The bird sounds very good for Ibe Chiffchaff (based on recordings that I have obtained of that species - i have not heard or seen Ibe Chiffchaff in the field before so am not that experienced).

It seems to be imitating Chiffchaff occassionally as it nears the female Chiff by the nest (which appears to have a male Collybita in the area), so the possibility of it being an Ibe imitating a Chiff is surely as likey as the other way round! Its imitation is not "Chiff Chaff" at all but more like the start of its "ordinary" song, a shorter less melodic "tiff". It does its more usual song 'tiff, tiff, tiff .... der der der der der" when it is in the rest of its circuit/territory.

Structurally it is spot on and plumage-wise it is pretty good. It seems to me the only problem with the Dibbinsdale bird is the yellow (or lack of it around the face and to some extent the vent). But this is (as with the underpart colouration in general) light dependant, Steve Round's excellent series of photos show different underparts colour (and at times differing supercilium prominence). Furthermore, aren't they as likely to vary as other phylloscs in this department. If I heard a Willow Warbler singing like a Willow Warbler but lacking yellow I would still say it was a Willow Warbler!

My experience of the bird in the field is that it lacks yellow on the throat, but it has restricted yellow around the super and face (see Steve's photos as well) and some yellow on vent. Also that its underparts are generally very pale (compared with Collybita). Is this one alleged 'non-classic' feature that bad - it has restricted yellow around face and vent, but not as prominent as so-called "classics"?

It is very interesting to compare with the (current) first British record at Portland, Dorset (May 1999) with which is shares many characteristics - I suggest everyone should read Birding North West Volume 1 No 4 (out early next week) for comparative shots with that bird, Phil's excellent description, Steve R's and Gary B's shots of the Dibbinsdale bird, shots of the Skelmersdale bird (all in colour) plus further comment! (www.birdingnorthwest.org.uk - also articles on Bufflehead, White Stork(s), Little Gulls in Liverpool Bay Spring 2004 and more - and it's only just turned May!

Thanks to Phil W for finding the bird and relaying the info so quick (and Paul B for passing it on) - and to Steve R for his superb shots - don't leave that lens lying around!!

In the end, I'm sure we will all leave it to the sound experts to determine, but it livens up a wet May day with northerly winds whilst sitting in the office pretending to work.

Cheers
Steve

PS Those birders who have too much free time to go on bird forums should write an article or two for Birding North West!

[CJW]

PS Those birders who have too much free time to go on bird forums should write an article or two for Birding North West!
I already have!

[Stephen Dunstan]

And so have I ...

[Harry Hussey]

Hi all,
With regard to the song of Iberian Chiffchaff,the article in Birding World on the Portland bird(which was not the first British record,incidentally:there was one at Brent Reservoir(?) back in the early 70's that was subsequently accepted,and also one on Scilly before the 1999 bird) stated that Iberian Chiffchaff,like Common,has three basic song types,the major difference being that these three sound very similar to each other in Common and thus don't strike birders as being different.
The territory proclamation song of Iberian is the well-known 'classic' song:however,the species also has two other song types(think one is a courtship song,can't recall what the other one was again),one of which sounds much more like a Common Chiffchaff's song.The difference between a 'pure' Iberian Chiffchaff giving these different song types and a so-called 'mixed singer'(whether a hybrid or a Chiffchaff that has picked up some of Iberian's song) is that in an Iberian,the bird alternates between both song types(think of a Wood Warbler giving the 'spinning coin' song and then the more plaintive 'pew-pew-pew...' song),whereas a 'mixed singer' will utter phrases that show characteristics of both species.
As I have not heard any recordings of these birds,and as the Skelmersdale bird in particular looks to be at odds with a 'classic' Iberian Chiffchaff,I feel unable to comment on the identification of either bird with any degree of certainty.However,it is my feeling that the Skelmersdale bird is an odd Common Chiffchaff(have heard that the song wasn't quite right?),and the Dibbinsdale bird may either have been an Iberian x Common or perhaps a dull Iberian(or even an odd Chiffer?).
Harry

[tom mckinney]

I went to see the Dibbinsdale bird today.

I now have sound recordings of this one, the Skem one and the proper one (( ;) ) that was at Woodhorn Church. If anyone would like them emailed for a listen PM me and I'll get them to you.

My opinion is still the same. The only Iberian Chiffchaff I have seen and heard so far this year is the one at Woodhorn. The Skem bird is to my ears a dodgy Chiff. The Dibbinsdale bird is a mystery. The timbre (posh word!) is identical to the Woodhorn bird. Pitch wise it seems spot on as well. However the song structure is TOTALLY incorrect.

I think we have a lot to learn about aberrant singing Chiffchaffs. Maybe they are a lot more common than we thought?

Appearance wise the Dibbs bird is not a clear cut Chiffchaff, agreed. But I don't think that supports it being an Ibe Chiff. It's certainly not out of the range of variation exhibitted by Chiffchaffs.

I know I keep banging on about the Woodhorn bird, but watching it I got a gut feeling that I was watching something noticably different in every way to Chiffchaff. And even though it was reminiscent of a Willow Warbler it wasn't that either: it was an Iberian Chiffchaff plain and simple. I didn't once think that with Skem/Dibbs birds.

I have heard Ibe Chiffs in Portugal and they matched the Jean Roche recording and also the Paul Doherty video exactly (non-vagrant birds). As did the Woodhorn bird. The Skem and Dibbs birds have similarities, but don't quite make the grade.

As for references to the Dutch Birding website - have any of those been accepted yet? I really do not think they are Ibe Chiffs. Pretty sure they wouldn't have a leg to stand on if they turned up over here.

But that's a different thread...

[Harry Hussey]

Hi Tom,
I know I keep banging on about the Woodhorn bird, but watching it I got a gut feeling that I was watching something noticably different in every way to Chiffchaff. And even though it was reminiscent of a Willow Warbler it wasn't that either: it was an Iberian Chiffchaff plain and simple. I didn't once think that with Skem/Dibbs birds.
I've never seen Iberian Chiffchaff anywhere,and have yet to hear recordings of any of these birds,but the Woodhorn bird just looked so right based on the online pics alone!I would say that this bird could not have 'just' been an odd Common Chiffchaff,especially as it sang perfectly for Iberian.
Harry

[Jane Turner]

15 years ago the Woodhorn would probably have been touted as a Willow x Chiff of course, but that again is another thread.

[Rob Smallwood]

I have sat back and listened to all the "expert" opinion on the two recent claimed "Iberians's" in North West England and get the feeling that the debate is clouded by personal opinion.

I can usually follow the debates on identity in this (and other) forums but on this particular thread I seem to hear people making fairly categorical decisions without the usual basis in well documented fact.

Perhaps there is still too much for us all to learn about the species (or sub-species) and at present, positive identification is un-wise?

Mind you, if we are so unsure about Iberian Chiffchaff, and its distinction from "nominate" Chiffchaff, should we have either on our lists at all - if nominate can mimic Iberian and vice-versa......?

[Tim Allwood]

there were at least two structurally unusual chiffs in east Norfolk at the weekend that had abnormal Iberian-like songs (one much more so than the other) and plumage and one of these birds pumped it's tail an incredible amount. We didn't pay all that much attention to them as without incredibly meticulous notes over a fair period, trappings and sonograms it'd be hard to offer an opinion worth much........

[Bluetail]

I share Rob's unease. Has anything been published anywhere on the ID of Iberian Chiff?

[PhilW]

Analysis of song shows virtually identical to Iberian Chiffchaff.

[tom mckinney]

Hi Phil everyone,

I agree that the Dibbinsdale has similarities to Iberian Chiffchaff in relation to its pitch and timbre. But it is way off in terms of the song structure.

The Dibbs bird just goes:

ji ji ji ji ji blrlrlrlrrl

This is not an Iberian song. Steve Round yesterday told me that it was singing a more extended version of this song when you first picked it up. I can't comment on that. But of what I heard yesterday, this was not an Iberian Chiffchaff. Even apperance wise it just didn't make the grade. Steve tells me it is even paired up with a colly Chiff. I saw it regularly coming to the calls of a colly Chiff yesterday afternoon.

Your bird is potentially the most interesting of any Iberian or possible Iberians that have yet occured. The song is a real mystery.

I think Jason (Bluetail) pretty much nailed the verdict on these odd phylloscs in another thread when he said they were abberant and as such they were un-IDable.

I'm still baffled as to what apparent Iberian Chiffchaff actually means.....?????

Tom.

[Jane Turner]

I've heard the bird have good attempt at either end of Iberian - but never manage to put the whole phrase together. The most "notes" it managed to get in the end part was 8, and it did a prolonged burst of 7s when hassled by a Wood Warbler. Most of the time it did 4 - like it couldn't be arsed. For a time it was just tiff tiff tiff tiff tiff tiff ing... it also did a prominsing Tiff tiff tiff teu teu, but missed out the flourish!
I have also watched it as it sang tiff tiff tiff tiff pisspsspsspss 4 times... then bold as brass go Chiff Chiff Chaff Chiff Chiff Chaff... which is presumably how it managed to "pull" the colly female!

[tom mckinney]

What's your overall opinion on it, Jane?

[Tim Allwood]

FYI
one of the Norfolk birds we observed well at the weekend appeared large and slightly sleek for a Chiff, had a spikier bill, white throat, paler legs than 'usual', better marked head pattern, longer tail which it pumped continuously for 15 mins. Indeed it appeared to have a Willow Warbler component to it. It also had a slight wing panel and slightly blotchy breat sides?...?...? Song however was not right for Iberian but was also not correct for a collybita indeed it appeared possibly paired with a collybita

spoken to others who have also had similar birds in Norfolk of late......where are these things coming from......?

[CJW]

......where are these things coming from......?
Observer awareness. If you look for something different, the odds are you'll see it.

[Jane Turner]

What's your overall opinion on it, Jane?

It may be an Iberian - but it not a certain Iberian based on the scant published data and my own experiences of Ib in Spain. I'm pretty sure its has a Spainsh parent though!

[Jane Turner]

Observer awareness. If you look for something different, the odds are you'll see it.


When it was just an "interesting race" I recorded 10 or so probables at Red Rocks.... always associated with other overshoots... many of these were as good on looks as the Northumberland bird of this year... and two were singing spot on (no recording alas) and all but one were trapped!

I bet most if not all of the reports of hybrid Willow Chiffs are Spanish and I have had contact with a former member of the rarities committee after writing an article on Spanish Chiff, who said that he was of the opinion that two old Cheshire of probable Bonellis Warblers (silky white underparted, spluttering trilling green-bumed Phylloscs) were the same taxa.

They appear to be as common up here as Melodious Warblers and once we clear up how to id them they will suddenly be regular! Unless they sing of course - or you catch them pumping their tails, they will tend to get overlooked as Willow Warbler.

[tom mckinney]

Just lifted this off surfbirds newsgroup:

Birds of the Western Palearctic: Volume 7 page 627 makes reference to a study (Thielcke, G. 1983 F. Orn. 124, 333-68) where nominate collybita were reared in isolation to see what the
default song would be like. They developed songs like either canariensis (very collybita like apparently) or brehmii (Iberian).

If the default song of such individuals reared without examples to copy can be of either type; then out of normal range individuals with "Iberian" type songs clearly cannot safely be identified as Iberian on song alone. Song alone does not appear to be diagnostic in this group, merely a possible indicator.
(Andrew Easton)

Makes a hell of a lot of sense.

Tom.

[Jane Turner]

Makes a lot of sense....

[Tim Allwood]

any of those old recs showing wing panels Jane? We mentioned Bonelli's while watching the birds at Waxham last weekend. I don't remember the Iberians I've seen in Spain being so distinctive plumage-wise.....but maybe I was thinking more of the cold cruzcampo and San Miguel waiting back at the bar.....

Tim
Keepin Norwich Tidy

[Jane Turner]

Most of them - except for the very worn bird...which of course is the bird I have a photo of... look at how bright green the edges to the two fresh TF are though... likewise the new GC... though not sure its visible in this pic before I post it!

http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=7941

added - no its not!

[Colin]

How different are the plumages, biometrics and song of the north African population of ibericus to that of the European population? Is there any difference?

[Rob Smallwood]

I'm suprised this thread has gone quiet as the bird appears to be gaining credibility elsewhere?

Steve Round has new photos of the bird which(I think) make interesting viewing.

[tom mckinney]

Apparently this bird is "responding" to tapes of Iberian Chiffchaff.

How valid a feature is this?

What constitutes responding?

Yesterday, as a little experiment, I played a Garden Warbler song to the Blackcap in my garden. It "responded" by singing back and "chacking" aggressively.

So is my Blackcap a Garden Warbler? Or is tape respondance just a load of crap?

Tonight I'm going to play an Iberian Chiffchaff song to a colly Chiffchaff.

[Bluetail]

Yes. Sometimes it does seem that tapes have acquired the status of a rosetta stone. I would suggest that a bird responding to a tape is indicative - one feature to be noted along with others - but far from diagnostic. But that's just my guess.

[tom mckinney]

Jason,

Agreed.

But what constitutes a valid response? We've all "pished" at some time or another and I am a particularly good "pisher." My understand of pishing is that it is an alien sound at a high frequency that causes a bird to come closer and investigate (or some birds anyway as I've never had much luck with ducks for example!!!) As soon as they see what is going on they invariably bugger off again.

Pishing initiates a response.

So what does a bird have to do? Does it have to swoop down and copulate with the CD player?

[Jane Turner]

Strange I did a test of my own just the other day. I taped a Whitethroat and tested it on 10 other Whitethroats. 5 responded by coming closer and singing louder, 3 responded by chacking and 2 were entirely indifferent!

[Bluetail]

Good point, Tom.

[Rob Smallwood]

I still worry when the best id anyone can come up with is a "hybrid" - it seems to me that hybrid sometimes replaces don't know for an answer.

Jane, you seem to feel particularly sure that this bird isn't an Iberian - have you any more thoughts on what it is?

The other suprising thing is that the bird has hung around for such a long time, been recorded and photographed and yet remains unidentified - thnk of how many birds get identified and accepted on far less. I'm intrigued!

[Jane Turner]

I am sure that I can't be certain that its Iberian... if that makes sense.
I'm am certain its not a pure colly.

This one is going to take DNA or a change of view about what constiutes "safe" Iberian!

[Rob Smallwood]

Oddly that does make sense !

[Jane Turner]

I am also confident in saying that it is a better imitation of an Iberian Chiffer than the Skem bird based on photos of the latter!

[SRWilliams]

I am also confident in saying that it is a better imitation of an Iberian Chiffer than the Skem bird based on photos of the latter!

I agree (from photos) but I am biased!

Can anyone be 100% 'certain' of Ibe Chiffs, without proper analysis (which I don't think has been done on this bird yet). I still think this bird (Dibbs) is a "good candidate".

I've spoken to several people who saw the Portland bird and who have seen this bird and so far (very limited survey!!) all four think it is Ibe Chiff.....

Presumably there are some who have seen both who don't think so, let us know.

Cheers
Steve

PS A great bird nevertheless and pushing all the ID boundaries

[Jane Turner]

Its possible to be more sure of birds than this (Dib) one (and I have been) and its still not on MY LIST :)

[sparrowbirder]

I just dont understand this whole debate about Iberian chiffchaffs! Ive seen plenty in spain and dont really remember them looking any different,now that it has been split and people are desperate to get a new tick all these new "ID" features seem to come out the woodwork!! It sounds different yes,but even this can vary from bird to bird, if they do hybridise with collybita is it a genuine species,you cant ID a bird in the field by its DNA can you,,must admit Ive heard plenty of "weird" chiffchaffs over the years,maybe I should have paid more attention!!

[Bluetail]

My feelings precisely, Andy, and so far the BBRC seem to agree that they're not reliably identifiable on plumage.

[Cuckoo-shrike]

I tend to agree as well, but the 1999 Portland bird was clearly shown to have a longer primary projection when measured in the hand, i.e. a quantifiable difference which should be apparent in the field given good views. Having said that, I failed to pick this up when looking at the recent apparent Iberian on the Lizard (but then I wasn't looking for it)!
Andy

[Tim Allwood]

birds from the centre of the range may be 'doable' but those from the periphery may be far more confusing and intermediate singers/biometrics will doubtless occur clouding the issue.....plus there is also talk of a split in Iberian to Biscay Chiff for the more northerly birds.....

may be a premature split?.......

Seen good singers in Iberia (and birds in north too so may get an extra!) so it's on the list that counts - my world list!!!

[Bluetail]

plus there is also talk of a split in Iberian to Biscay Chiff for the more northerly birds.....

may be a premature split?.......Isn't this getting ridiculous?

[Jane Turner]

I tend to agree as well, but the 1999 Portland bird was clearly shown to have a longer primary projection when measured in the hand, i.e. a quantifiable difference which should be apparent in the field given good views. Having said that, I failed to pick this up when looking at the recent apparent Iberian on the Lizard (but then I wasn't looking for it)!
Andy


The Dib bird does have a good primary projection....

[Rob Smallwood]

...and i'm suspicious of all the "hype" about the song not being 100% accurate. Many birds sing slightly differently - so much so that individuals can often be identified from slight changes in pitch, tone or whatever.

The "Dibb" bird sounds very like the recordings of "true" Iberian's that I can find on the web - and looks pretty much like a lot of th epictures I can find too.

Short of trapping it we'll never be sure - and I for one am glad that it hasn't been trapped yet - far too many "unusual" birds apppear to get trapped in the UK these days.

[Jane Turner]

Just wish it had the plumage!

[Rob Smallwood]

But what has it got the plumage for? I don't buy in to the hybrid theory.

[Jane Turner]

Not far off an eastern Chiff on plumage... little yellow at the bend of the wing... otherwise ever so ever so dull...

The Iberian Chiffs I've seen have been closer to Wood Warbler!

[Tim Allwood]

or initially suggestive of Willows

[Rob Smallwood]

Perhaps they were Wood Warblers with aberrant songs!

[Jane Turner]

Yes... def easy to overlook as big supererd Willows.. but yellow on the throat Utcs, under wing coverts and white belly

[Rob Smallwood]

Jane - you'll never be on the golf course at 4:00 if you stay up this late - Nighthawk next time!!

[Jane Turner]

Its blowing a gale here and there is a Boney's at IMF.... I'm saving myself for the tide tomorrow :)

[Cuckoo-shrike]

Has anyone made an accessible recording of the Dib bird?
Andy

[sparrowbirder]

I still think this was a split too far,seems to be too many ifs and buts about most of the records so far, I think much more research needs to be done, if only to make birding a bit simpler..what was the final decision over the skem bird..ive talked to people who have seen it and there doesnt seem to be a consensus either way..ive heard the phrase "90% iberian" well if its less than 100% it isnt one

[tom mckinney]

Andy,

I have emailable recordings of the Dibs Chiff, Skelmers Chiff and the Iberian Chiff at Woodhorn.

PM me if you want.

[Colin]

birds from the centre of the range may be 'doable' but those from the periphery may be far more confusing and intermediate singers/biometrics will doubtless occur clouding the issue.....plus there is also talk of a split in Iberian to Biscay Chiff for the more northerly birds.....

may be a premature split?.......

Seen good singers in Iberia (and birds in north too so may get an extra!) so it's on the list that counts - my world list!!!


Tim,
I mentioned, many posts above, about a difference with the songs of the North African population of ibericus to those of mainland Europe. I have since discovered this fact in BWP (Concise) but I have not been able to hear a recording or find one. Thus you note that birds from the periphery may be more confusing would gell with this note. You can't get much more periphic (is that really a word) than North Africa for this species/sub species.

[godwit]

This posted on Birdguides tonight:

"this birds song has been sonogrammed and is found to be a 'mixed singer' and cannot be definately (sic) assigned to a particular race or species"

and of the Skelmersdale individual:

"this birds song has been sonogrammed and found to be a Common Chiffchaff of the nominate race"

I've no idea how accurate or reliable these sonogram findings are.

Dave

[Rob Smallwood]

Dave,

I believe the full press release goes on to infer that the Wirral bird may yet be accepted on conbination of song and description so a final decision has yet to be made?

[Jane Turner]

If it is accepted it will really put the cat amongst the proverbial pigeons as regards what constitues an accpetable Ib Chiffer :)

[tom mckinney]

Why is the Dibbinsdale bird a mixed singer?

I never once heard it mix the 2 songs and as far as I know neither did anyone else?

The Skelmersdale bird did.

None of this actually explains just exactly what they are. On a sonogram I'd imagine that the vocal frequency of the Dibs bird matched Iberian near perfectly, but the song structure was a million miles off. But the Skelmersdale bird would probably be way off the mark in a comparable frequency image yet it's song structure was very very close to Iberian.

So the sonograms don't do much other than to say you can't tick them. But we knew that already. So we are still no further in having any idea what they are. Never mind Aquila's bird or the one in Cumbria or Tim Allwood's that he mentioned in Norfolk....

[Tim Allwood]

True Tom

there must be some Chiffs from down that way that look, and are, 'different' from our perceptions of P.c.collybita but perhaps don't sing all that differently (our Waxham bird for example) and i guess these may be peripheral birds and the situation may be fluid at the moment with it not being possible to assign birds definitely, the birds above being good examples

[ColinR]

This is my first posting and I feel more than a little out of my depth having read earlier postings on this subject. Nevertheless, we have had an unusual sounding Chiffchaff in East Sussex this year and I have an mp3 recording.

I am not equipped to photograph the bird but it sings from the top of an approximately 25-30ft tree whilst dipping its tail. Its song is repetitive and unvaried.

If anyone is kind enough to offer an opinion I will forward the recording by e-mail.

[markwash]

Sorry to bring up this old chestnut, but in view of latest British Birds article - both the Dibbinsdale and Skem birds of 2004 get mention. I thought others would like to hear my recording clips of Dibbinsdale bird:

1st one its Iberian type song
2nd one of it chiffchaffing
3rd Kingswear Iberian Chiffchaff from 2003

[Docmartin]

I thought others would like to hear my recording clips of Dibbinsdale bird:


Certainly would. The first recording represents the low-intensity (without 'wheeps') Ibe Chiffy song, pretty much identical to that in fig. 5a of the paper. The second song is Common Chiffchaff-like - nice to have the Common Chiffy in the background for comparison. The tempo of that song is a bit faster than the Common Chiffy. The 2003 Kingswear is a nice sounding Ibe-Chiffy song, with 'wheeps'.

Good recordings. Do you have any more?

Martin

[Cuckoo-shrike]

Here's a recording of the song and calls of the accepted Iberian Chiff at Windmill Farm, The Lizard, Cornwall 30 Apr - 3 May 2004.

[Jane Turner]

For those who don't get BB

Diibs: It was clearly not just a common Chiff. The possibility of hybrid origin needs to be considered, and the description of plumage and structure, although suggestive of IC in some respects, may not rule this out. We would not discount the possibility that it may have been a genuine Iberian.


Skem: was probably a Common Chiffchaff

[Docmartin]

Here's a recording of the song and calls of the accepted Iberian Chiff at Windmill Farm, The Lizard, Cornwall 30 Apr - 3 May 2004.

Amazing - the first 5-phase song I've heard for a while, but all Iberian, and call is Iberian too.