Local Reserve Closing To The Public!!??

[tracker]

Hi everyone,

Just been out to do some shopping, and noticed the front page of a local newspaper the heading 'Keep Out'.

From a quick scan of the first paragraph i learned that access to my local nature/birding reserve is to be brought to an end. The local Police have decided that keeping this access open to fishermen and birdwatchers etc, poses too much of a potential terrorist threat to the local working docks, here in Liverpool.

For a while now, ive often wondered why the police at the entrance of the docks havent made more of an effort to quiz me as i walk through to get to the Seaforth reserve. (which, incidentally, is situated in the middle of the very busy port/docks of Liverpool)

Sadly, it seems the extreme course of action is to be taken. The newspaper seemed to indicate all were banned, as of the 1st July, 2004. Ive only read the first paragraph, so i cant really say how drastic this move will actually be. Hopefully, i will have a fuller picture later today.

Im fully aware of the need for vigilance during this very security conscious time, but i would have thought issuing some kind of pass would have been a more reasonable approach. What will the 'threat of terrorists' stop us from doing next?

tracker.............. :h?:

just found this link: http://icseftonandwestlancs.icnetwork.co.uk/iccrosby/news/tm_objectid=14280549%26method=full%26siteid=60252% 26headline=keep%2dout-name_page.html

[Woody]

It looks like the terrorists are starting to win....

Woody

[tom mckinney]

Sorry Tracker, I don't quite follow. Are you saying that access to Seaforth itself is being stopped or a different reserve at the docks?

Tom.

[Bluetail]

Tracker, I'd be gutted if it were me. As you say, one would have hoped that passes would have got round the problem. But I guess they would have to be limited. I only know the site from one brief and restricted visit, but I would imagine that large numbers wandering around might be difficult to keep tabs on. And what would happen when a rarity turned up?

[Nightranger]

I wonder if there is a possibility of suggesting to the Merseyside Police a voluntary ID scheme as was introduced for plane spotters at Luton Airport. The airport authorities recognised that plane spotters could potentially spot the early signs of suspicious behaviour and enhance the surveillance by the Police. It seems to me that the anglers and bird watchers at Seaforth could do something similar so that anyone challenged could produce ID or be asked to leave the site. This is not the same as a permit scheme but it would be a great way of demonstrating good faith rather than applying an all or nothing approach.

[Nightranger]

And what would happen when a rarity turned up?

Good point but I suppose there has long been the chance that terrorists could infiltrate a twitching crowd close to a sensitive area. Perhaps this more a case of possibilities rather than probabilities and any rarity record at Seaforth should be the subject of Police advice before it is released generally. I think the problem we have (and this issue could be extended to other sites like RSPB Lakenheath for instance) is that we are dealing with paranoia and authority will (not just the Police BTW) to take that extra step. Done sensitively, a crackdown can enhance security without the need to total exclusion, which presents policing problems anyway.

[tracker]

Sorry Tracker, I don't quite follow. Are you saying that access to Seaforth itself is being stopped or a different reserve at the docks?

Tom.

Hi Tom,

Sorry if i didnt make myself too clear earlier. From what ive read (i think the link i included at bottom of my first post may shine more light on the situation)
the reserve, which is situated within the grounds of the Mersey Docks and Harbour Company, (basically you need to enter through the Liverpool Freeport/Docks to get to the reserve) is soon to be a 'no-go' area, people wont be allowed to come and go as they please. Only by booking as a special group, a week in advance, with, im not sure police/dock company authorisation.
To be perfectly honest, this unique and very special reserve, has been under quite a lot of pressure over recent years, and i find it differcult believing its all just because of 'terrorist threats'. Plane spotters are still allowed at airports. When do they get stopped due to these threats?
Ive been visiting this reserve for 13 years now, and to have to consider it 'off-limits' is a real body blow.
About 95% of my birding and photography has been done at this reserve. Closing this to the public, without seriously considering reasonable options, i believe will be a very sad step.

tracker

[Michael Frankis]

The permit system seems a very good idea to me - I can't think of any people better than birders (with all their optics) and fishermen (with their patience and all-hours sitting around waiting) to monitor security - a security fence isn't going to stop determined terrorists getting in, but the thought of having to pass suspicious eyes any time of day or night, will

Michael

[RichUK]

Hi,

I agree - the ID scheme is an excellent idea. I keep meaning to 'sign-up' to the Luton airport scheme.

Good suggestion Ian - us Bedfordians are full of 'em ;)

Rich.

[Mickymouse]

ID ---- Birdforum enamel badge :-)
Mick

[Colin]

I would concur with what Michael and others have said, a permit system. I have got permission in the past from some local farmers to go on their land and in return I keep an eye out for anything amiss. For example I have rescued a trapped sheep, informed the farmer of a cow which was in difficulties with a calf and noting suspicious characters/cars which occasionally show up. Indeed, I thought the idea was that the public should be vigilant and 'vetted' people with a permit would do just the job.

[christineredgate]

Tracker,can you not contact your local MP or RSPB rep and perhaps ask for a permit which will allow you access.

[tracker]

Hi Christine,

Im going to wait and see what the Lancashire Trust for Nature Conservation comes up with as a suggestion.(This is the group responsible for Seaforths reserve) Not heard anything yet, but will keep my ear close to the ground.

tracker

[Johnny1]

I'm sorry to hear Seaforth is closing to the public, I saw my first Peregrine,Little Gull, Med Gull, Ring Billed Gull and Yellow Wagtails there. I was amazed to see my first Yellow Wags feeding amongst the wagon trailers and Whinchats in the rubble! I havn't been down there for a while, if I remember rightly it was to see the 2 Marsh Sandpipers at the nearby Marina.

[tracker]

Its been a very special place for me, Johnny. Ive done most of my birding at this reserve. Had many firsts there too. I did learn some years back, that its one of the top ten reserves in Europe for certain species. Quiet days soon forgotten by the many surprises this site often produced. Your signature nicely compares heaven to birding on a spring day. For me, the same could be said for birding at Seaforth on a cold winters day, and seeing the sudden arrival of a Long Tailed duck or catching the distinct white-ness of a Med Gull.

tracker

[Tim Allwood]

Oh dear
very sad
had a few good birds there over the years

I remember going there when i was working on the twitchers documentary, to film the crowd for the White-crowned Sparrow.....we had a right job getting the cameras in. The Port Autoiority were ultra suspicious back then even....! I wonder what they import/export from there for all this security.

Can't see any id scheme working I'm afraid. Once someone has one they would have unrestricted access and be beyond suspicion as all eyes would be on those without one........maybe the authority need a bit of perspective here?

[Ben Dickinson]

Hi Tracker and all,

I too read this article in the Liverpool Echo and it's such a huge shame - it's a reserve I too have been going to for over 5 years now and the only one that is relatively easy to get to via public transport, having no car as I do.

And they'd only recently upgraded all the paths at the reserve after many months of no access due to the rebuilding. I really hope that the Lancashire Trust for Conservation can do something (tho I'm not sure what). Anyone else got any ideas? The ID scheme is an idea but having read that link and the other articles on it, I don't see the Port buying it at all. Besides, surely anyone could claim to be a birder/angler and therefore claim for ID.

I also hope, that even if all access is shut down, that the reserve itself isn't forced to close and the area made available for development, as so much of the area around the reserve has been in the last year or two.

Sending an email off to the LCT as we speak to see if I can find out any more details...

[sparrowbirder]

Tracker,as a former seaforth regular myself this is indeed sad news,makes me think though if it is actually a scheme thought up by the harbour board to stop birders going,with the intention of getting their grubby little hands on the reserve (which they have been doing bit by bit over the years) as you have already said,the police never even bother to stop people as they drive in,and all of a sudden it is closing due to a "terrorist" threat, call me cynical but I dont trust the MDHC as far as I can throw em....

[tracker]

Tracker,as a former seaforth regular myself this is indeed sad news,makes me think though if it is actually a scheme thought up by the harbour board to stop birders going,with the intention of getting their grubby little hands on the reserve (which they have been doing bit by bit over the years) as you have already said,the police never even bother to stop people as they drive in,and all of a sudden it is closing due to a "terrorist" threat, call me cynical but I dont trust the MDHC as far as I can throw em....

Hi Sparrowbirder,

I think my view of 'trust' is reflected a lot more subtly than your obvious mis-givings..... ;) I fully agree with everything you say.
Thing is, cars, lorries, etc, do, usually get stopped, both entering and leaving the Freeport. Yet rarely have i ever been stopped by the police as i walk in. Then (but most times never) its only a call across the road to me, casually asking 'Where ya goin' mate?'
As ive already stated, the whole thing smacks of someone trying to remove nature conservation from the grounds of the MDHC.

tracker

[christineredgate]

Tracker,I do hope you can sort something ,re this problem.I think it is so sad,when these natural habitats that one has used for years suddenly becomes a Government project and is out of grounds to the public.It makes one wonder ,in years to come,just what our country will be .The country side as we have known from childhood is suddenly no longer accessible.It is really very sad,as one day ,even say 100yrs from now,our environment will never be as we have known it.

[Mick East]

What about Languard Point and Felixstone Docks, is Minsmere to close to Sizewell, hasn't the world become a safer place in the last few years. A least the birds are still free, I hope.

Mick

[Mike Pennington]

Firstly, let me say that the Seaforth pools were excavated as potential expansion for the port and that MDHC (the owners) has every legal right to do with the area what they want. There was serious talk about filling in the pools when the Freeport was declared for example. While that should not stop us fighting any change of use, it does put us in a poor position.

Secondly, I'm sending a letter to MDHC. I've put it below (and yes, I've pinched some of the points already made). If anyone wants to amend it and send it themselves, feel free. They may recognise that the letter is reused, but the fact that people bother to print it out, stick it in an envelope and post it does make a difference (whereas petitions are ignored as 50% of people sign just because they're asked, not because they care).


Terry Kelly
Port Safety & Environmental Manager
The Mersey Docks & Harbour Company
Maritime Centre
Port of Liverpool
L21 1LA
United Kingdom

Dear Sir,
I am writing to tell you how disappointed I am to hear the access to Seaforth Local Nature Reserve within the Liverpool Freeport is to be severely restricted, supposedly to help counter a perceived terrorist threat.

Leaving aside the fact that the reserve will become effectively inaccessible to most people (including myself on my visits home) I feel the decision is the wrong one for several reasons.

Firstly, it is a victory for the terrorists, whose aim is to disrupt normal life and make ordinary everyday activities more difficult.

Secondly, it is an over-reaction. I know from personal experience that the security has not been tight enough - I have never been stopped on my way in or out while on foot and never been questioned when in a vehicle. To go from this to effectively banning entry is extreme.

Thirdly, you are actually missing an opportunity to improve security. If you introduced some form of permit system or photo ID allowing birdwatchers and anglers to enter the area then you have a large number of vigilant observers who would be able to alert the authorities if something was amiss. I believe that similar systems have been put in place in some airports allowing planespotters to carry on with their activities.

I hope that you will be persuaded to reconsider your decision.

[pauco]

Firstly, let me say that the Seaforth pools were excavated as potential expansion for the port and that MDHC (the owners) has every legal right to do with the area what they want. There was serious talk about filling in the pools when the Freeport was declared for example. While that should not stop us fighting any change of use, it does put us in a poor position.

Secondly, I'm sending a letter to MDHC. I've put it below (and yes, I've pinched some of the points already made). If anyone wants to amend it and send it themselves, feel free. They may recognise that the letter is reused, but the fact that people bother to print it out, stick it in an envelope and post it does make a difference (whereas petitions are ignored as 50% of people sign just because they're asked, not because they care).


Terry Kelly
Port Safety & Environmental Manager
The Mersey Docks & Harbour Company
Maritime Centre
Port of Liverpool
L21 1LA
United Kingdom

Dear Sir,
I am writing to tell you how disappointed I am to hear the access to Seaforth Local Nature Reserve within the Liverpool Freeport is to be severely restricted, supposedly to help counter a perceived terrorist threat.

Leaving aside the fact that the reserve will become effectively inaccessible to most people (including myself on my visits home) I feel the decision is the wrong one for several reasons.

Firstly, it is a victory for the terrorists, whose aim is to disrupt normal life and make ordinary everyday activities more difficult.

Secondly, it is an over-reaction. I know from personal experience that the security has not been tight enough - I have never been stopped on my way in or out while on foot and never been questioned when in a vehicle. To go from this to effectively banning entry is extreme.

Thirdly, you are actually missing an opportunity to improve security. If you introduced some form of permit system or photo ID allowing birdwatchers and anglers to enter the area then you have a large number of vigilant observers who would be able to alert the authorities if something was amiss. I believe that similar systems have been put in place in some airports allowing planespotters to carry on with their activities.

I hope that you will be persuaded to reconsider your decision.
Mike i :clap: your point and yes it is better than a petition. so will copy and send one and hope it helps.
bert

[tracker]

Hi,

i recently learned, that the decision to make this reserve off-limits to the public, is part of an over-all decision filtered down from the US Government requiring the various governments of the world to tighten all Docks/Port security.

tracker

[sparrowbirder]

tracker,what is the actual situation on visiting the place,I havent spoken to Steve White the warden for a while,how much notice do you have to give,can you phone in the morning and go in the afternoon..ill have to drop him a line to clarify things a bit
andy

[tracker]

Hi Andy,

You need to be a part of a group, ie RSPB member etc......and arrangement is made at least 7 days in advance. The groups request is put to the Port Police/ Dock Company.
This requirement doesnt really satisfy birdings' spontaneity.

tracker

[Bluetail]

Hi,

i recently learned, that the decision to make this reserve off-limits to the public, is part of an over-all decision filtered down from the US Government requiring the various governments of the world to tighten all Docks/Port security.

tracker???? Erm... er... I remember going to the polls recently... I think I remember the British government being involved somewhere on the local level... I'm sure I remember the European government being involved. Don't remember anything about the American government though... ???? :stuck:

[sparrowbirder]

Spoke to steve this morning,apparently its been absolute chaos on the docks the last couple of days,he even said he isnt sure he will be allowed in from one day to the next!
It sounds hopeless for the forseable future im afraid,he has managed to obtain a few photo ids for likes of staff,reserve workers etc (port passes),but doesnt know what the situation will be down the line,,he is in negotiations with the dock board but it may take a while to sort this out (months),Im no longer a regular down their,although I do still visit when I can (I like to have the option) so im not sure were I will be in the pecking order if and when permits are issued (I wouldnt expect any preferential treatment,people who go down frequently should be first in line)..I suppose its like anything,if something is taken away you want it more..

[sparrowbirder]

Also what he did say is the days of "mass twitches" on the reserve are a thing of the past,so I dont think much news will be coming out of the place anymore..

[tracker]

???? Erm... er... I remember going to the polls recently... I think I remember the British government being involved somewhere on the local level... I'm sure I remember the European government being involved. Don't remember anything about the American government though... ???? :stuck:

It was the warden of this reserve who told me this was related to US government policy. Point is, does it really matter where the instructions originated from?

tracker

[Michael Frankis]

It was the warden of this reserve who told me this was related to US government policy. Point is, does it really matter where the instructions originated from?

tracker
I suspect it does, as, if all goes well, the person issuing the instructions will be out on their ear in six months . . .

Michael

[tracker]

I suspect it does, as, if all goes well, the person issuing the instructions will be out on their ear in six months . . .

Michael

Yet, Michael.........we all know this isnt from grass roots authorities. Where this is from, people are generally 'untouchable' specially when its in the name of 'home security'.
The idea of being put 'out on their ear' still would be a nice idea. Cant see it though.

tracker

[Dan drough]

It really is pathetic isn't it. Remember the hoohaa about the ship in Greece a while back that was full of explosives or something. The Greek "Special forces" took the ship and it was on the news all the time then it all went quiet.
What a bunch of prats we have in our security services!

What did happen to the ship in Greece?