New line of Nikon eye pieces designed for digiscoping

[gorank]

Nikon releases new fixed eye pieces for the ED82/FieldscopeIII
The press release is in Japanese but the technical data is possible to decode (at least I thought so...=)

I think I had It a bit wrong here at first...or if they have mixed it up on the nikon page..Im not sure..=)

Look at the pictures...to me they are low profile eyepieces..seems like new ones..

http://www.nikon.co.jp/main/jpn/whatsnew/2004/fscope_lens_04.htm

and compare with the old ones
http://nikon.topica.ne.jp/bi_e/products/nature_a.htm#2

The weight differs...eye relief values differs...

Can anyone explain! I think they are new...

[scampo]

Looks very interesting. I hope they also launch a new zoom with a wide field of view, soon, too - they'd have an absolute winner on their hands if they did.

[gorank]

..there also seems to be new digiscoping adapter for the D70...and another with built in old fashion remote!..this one seems to be dedicated for the new CP5200/4200....The D70 adapter seems pretty interesting!

the new eye pieces have DS as a suffix...it looks like they have been designed together with the adaptors and especially for digiscoping....first time time in history??

[gorank]

here are some more pictures of the adaptor system...text is still in japanese..
http://nikon.topica.ne.jp/bi_j/fsystem/

and with larger pictures:
http://www.fjit.com.cn/news/24/24922.html

as you can see that the new eyepiece is physically designed to fit the adaptor...this will save weight compared to the old solution...=)
the adaptor with built-in remote-cord for the CP5200 seems pretty cool too...

[scampo]

Hi Gorank

I sent them an email from that web page link you gave. I wonder if they'll send me the details i asked for?

[gorank]

now there are full info in english about the new products:
http://nikon.topica.ne.jp/bi_e/products/nature_c.htm

[scampo]

When I have time I shall be looking closer into this development. On a quick first look it seems interesting and it also seems as if other CoolPix cameras will work.

[Jay Turberville]

now there are full info in english about the new products:
http://nikon.topica.ne.jp/bi_e/products/nature_c.htm

I find the less than 20mm effective eye relief extremely disappointing. These eyepieces are essentially in the same class as the other makers' standard fixed wide view eyepieces. The distinction being that they apparently fit the Nikon digiscoping adapter well.

The vignetting column is also disappointing. Why not simply specify the focal length where vignetting begins? What a silly chart. Add to this that the 75x will almost always give too much magnification and the 50x will only be adequate on the two (less than preferred) cameras that allow the very widest settings to be used.

Then they compound this silliness with their charts showing digiscoping equivalences of over 10,000mm focal length. Such magnifications do not produce good results and Nikon should know this. Once the effective f-number is much over f11, results will be mediocre at best. Nikon's failure to ever mention this is pretty irresponsible. The inclusion of such long equivalent focal lengths could leave the impression that these are actually reasonable combinations and settings to use. But basic optics dictates that only those combinations that yield an f-number below f/11 or f/12 are worth considering for good photographs. (OK, I'll give them a little break for reccomending the use of a wide angle on the 5200/4200 cameras. But it is a shame that they don't simply "red out" the columns that have magnification to high to provide good results.

So they have added one eyepiece, the 24x/30x with 18.7mm of eye relief that finally provides a good solid option for Nikon scope owners with a good number of Coolpix cameras. And they have added a second eyepiece, the 40x/50x that can be useful at the wide to mid settings for the CP4200/5200.

This is certainly an improvement and the 24x/30x is probably a very good choice for someone with a Nikon scope and a Coolpix. But this is hardly what I would have hoped for. I see nothing "ground breaking" for digiscoping in these eyepiece specs. The eye reliefs are not long enough to make these eyepieces very versatile. It all seems to be a couple years late. They have merely caught up to where most other makers were a few years ago.

[gorank]

I dont think Nikon intended to make a silly chart...=)...and I think its rather simple to understand, even for non-experts...
Its interesting to see that the new CP5200 gives less vignetting than the old 4500..
since the cp5200 has a external moving zoom objective the question is how this will work in practice with the adaptor...anyway the built in cable release seems...well...retro and solid...=)

I agree that the 24x/30x seems interesting, probably the only eyepiece that is usable in practice...I would even had liked to see a 16x/20x...for an even larger exit pupil...

Focal length equivalents of 10000 mm is just nonsense...with a 30x eye piece, the zoom with the camera is just cropping of the image, and the real focal length is about 1500 mm = 30x...or am I wrong? At least you dont get any more detail than you can see in the eyepiece if the camera is just 4 Mpixel...it may depend on the scope...but that is my experience of the Fieldscope IIIA 60 mm and CP4500.

compared to others...well...ehum..the innovative...leica digilux adapter..with constant vignetting... is no longer with us..=)...

[scampo]

They have merely caught up to where most other makers were a few years ago.I wonder? Quoted eye reliefs are not always accurate, either, as someone posted a while back about Swaro's figures.

My son has the existing 30xW Nikon eyepiece, and it is fine for digiscoping. It does need a little more zoom applying, but it works well. I would like to try out this new eyepiece to see how much better it is.

[gorank]

I wonder? Quoted eye reliefs are not always accurate, either, as someone posted a while back about Swaro's figures.

My son has the existing 30xW Nikon eyepiece, and it is fine for digiscoping. It does need a little more zoom applying, but it works well. I would like to try out this new eyepiece to see how much better it is.

the present 30x/38x works ok, but the magnification is to much...the exit pupil is also too small..

Not having to zoom in at all would be even better, it would give less shake an it gives a larger aperture in the camera also..

The ED lens in the cp5200 could be usefull also. The cp5200 havent got any rave reviews but the images I have seen looks pretty good..rather high noise is a matter...as in all consumer cameras...and the more pixels the more noise...the cheaper model 4200 actually had lower noise according to a test in a swedish magazine...

The color rendition seems better than the cp4500..not that plastic look i think...

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2004_reviews/nikon5200_samples.html

[scampo]

the present 30x/38x works ok, but the magnification is to much...the exit pupil is also too small...

It's 20x/30x, Gorank, I think. I wouldn't use the 30x/38x for digiscoping.

[Jay Turberville]

I wonder? Quoted eye reliefs are not always accurate, either, as someone posted a while back about Swaro's figures.


I've carefully measured the eye relief for the 20-60x and 20xW for the Swaro and they are very accurate. Certainly within less than a millimeter of the stated figure. The zoom is conservative in that it states the eye relief at its worse. It actually gets as long as 20mm or so at its lowest magnification.

It may very well be different when used with a 65mm Swaro. I have observed that actual eye relief measurments will change when the same eyepiece is used in different scopes.

[Jay Turberville]

I dont think Nikon intended to make a silly chart...=)...and I think its rather simple to understand, even for non-experts...


Silly is probably a poor word. Irresponsible would be better. I agree that it is easy to understand. Too bad that many are likely to "understand" that they can digiscope at 10,000mm equivalent focal lengths.


Its interesting to see that the new CP5200 gives less vignetting than the old 4500..
since the cp5200 has a external moving zoom objective the question is how this will work in practice with the adaptor...anyway the built in cable release seems...well...retro and solid...=)


The CP5200 and CP4200 probably have a more compact lens assembly. The external zoom really isn't the issue that many think. I use a CP5000 that uses an external zoom. The UR-X adapters work fine.


Focal length equivalents of 10000 mm is just nonsense...


Or we might say "silly"? ;)


with a 30x eye piece, the zoom with the camera is just cropping of the image, and the real focal length is about 1500 mm = 30x...or am I wrong?


The real focal length will be the scope magnification multiplied by the camera's focal length. The equivalent focal length will be the camera's equivalent focal length multiplied by the scope magnification. I checked a few of Nikon's numbers and those were all correct.


At least you dont get any more detail than you can see in the eyepiece if the camera is just 4 Mpixel...it may depend on the scope...but that is my experience of the Fieldscope IIIA 60 mm and CP4500.


I recently added info to my digiscoping calculator that lets you make calculations using the "normal" human eye. It really hard to compare visual detail with photographed detail since the two work significantly differently. But as a general rule, the camera can record whatever the eye can see. Though it probably won't do so with as much apparent contrast.

I'll have to add some Nikon scopes to the calculator and the CP5200/4200. I'll probably do that tonight.

http://www.jayandwanda.com/digiscope/digiscope_calc.html

[gorank]

It's 20x/30x, Gorank, I think. I wouldn't use the 30x/38x for digiscoping.

there is no nikon 20x/30x Wide eye piece..(its always aprox 25% difference in the magnification between the 60 and 82 mm versions)

but there is a 20x/25x but its not Wide Angle and
the 20/25 has poor eye relief 15 mm only, so i understand it is not optimal for digiscoping,

the 30/38x has 17,9 mm eye relief so its actually better suited for digiscoping..from that aspect..

but the new 24x/30x should be even better...

[gorank]

The real focal length will be the scope magnification multiplied by the camera's focal length. The equivalent focal length will be the camera's equivalent focal length multiplied by the scope magnification. I checked a few of Nikon's numbers and those were all correct.

I recently added info to my digiscoping calculator that lets you make calculations using the "normal" human eye. It really hard to compare visual detail with photographed detail since the two work significantly differently. But as a general rule, the camera can record whatever the eye can see. Though it probably won't do so with as much apparent contrast.

I'll have to add some Nikon scopes to the calculator and the CP5200/4200. I'll probably do that tonight.

http://www.jayandwanda.com/digiscope/digiscope_calc.html

ill check out you calculator again..=)

you might call it the perceived focal length...the theoretical may be the 10000 or whatever...=)

..in DSLR:s first it was talked about focal length increase...but now crop factor...I see some similarities...

[scampo]

there is no nikon 20x/30x Wide eye piece..(its always aprox 25% difference in the magnification between the 60 and 82 mm versions)

but there is a 20x/25x but its not Wide Angle and
the 20/25 has poor eye relief 15 mm only, so i understand it is not optimal for digiscoping,

the 30/38x has 17,9 mm eye relief so its actually better suited for digiscoping..from that aspect..

but the new 24x/30x should be even better...My son's eyepieces for his ED82A are the zoom 25-75x and the fixed 30xW. Now you've got me confused.

[gorank]

My son's eyepieces for his ED82A are the zoom 25-75x and the fixed 30xW. Now you've got me confused.

yepp..confusing it is with nikons eye pieces...=)

with swarovski it is easier...all the eye pieces have the same magnification for both the 65mm and the 80 mm....=)

perhaps some of the optical guys can explain the theory behind...???

any pros and cons with this different approaches ??

[scampo]

It's the varying focal length of the scope body lens construction. But I thought you were saying that there was no 30x eyepiece for the Nikon ED82 - that's what confused me.

[gorank]

It's the varying focal length of the scope body lens construction. But I thought you were saying that there was no 30x eyepiece for the Nikon ED82 - that's what confused me.

no i didnt..
you mean the 24x/30x I guess,
it has a stated eye relief of 15,1 mm but this must be wrong ??
http://nikon.topica.ne.jp/bi_e/products/nature_a.htm#3

I suspect that the 24x/30x is optical identical with the new 24x/30x DS version, it has 18,7 mm eye relief.

It's the varying focal length of the scope body lens construction.

well yes...i guess pretty obvious..=)...but I was more interested in why swarovski use this design/approach...and not leica, zeiss nor nikon...

[scampo]

Sorry - I was too y-a-w-n Sundayish to pick up your question properly on different focal length. Apologies for sounding patronising, if it sounded that way, Gorank.

I think the Nikon eyepieces are shorter than average on eye-relief, but it's still easy enough to use them for digiscoping with the CP4500. The little extra eye-relief seems hardly worth upgrading to, then?

[Jay Turberville]

ill check out you calculator again..=)

you might call it the perceived focal length...the theoretical may be the 10000 or whatever...=)

..in DSLR:s first it was talked about focal length increase...but now crop factor...I see some similarities...

The focal lengths that Nikon mentions do comtain a component that is the same as the DSLR crop factor. But there is also actual focal length increase as well.

On a Nikon CP4500, fully zoomed is actually 32mm which is around 155mm equivalent (crop factor adjusted).

With a 20x scope, the actual focal length is 20 x 32mm = 640mm
The equivalent focal length is 20 x 155mm = 3100mm (crop factor adjusted).

With digiscoping, you have two things happening. 1) actual focal length increases due to scope magnification. 2) Big crop factor (4.8x on CP4500) due to small sensor.

Divide 640mm by 80mm (assuming an 80mm scope) and you can see that we have an actual 640mm f/8 lens. Multiply it by the crop factor and we have a 3100mm equivalent lens at f/8.

These two factors and high quality scopes combine to make digiscoping viable and powerful.

[hinnark]

I was more interested in why swarovski use this design/approach...and not leica, zeiss nor nikon...

Gorank,

AFAIK optical problems (CA, sharpness) increase with bigger apertures while focal length of the objectives stays the same. I assume that these effects are more visible with non ed/hd optics. Somewhere I`ve read that there´s a limit in respect of magnification/aperture relationship from where higher magnifications don´t make sense because they are getting "unreal". This phenomenon was compared with magnification of pictures with electronical image editing software which is working to magnify without increase of optical information because the number of pixels stays the same. The informations about the readings of this limit are differing. But in the astro scene rules of thumb varies from 1 to 2x magnification of aperture diameter depending of quality and type of construction of the optic. From this point of view it could be arguable of what a magnifications of about more than 40x with a 65 scope can really perform. I cannot specify this limit with a scope such like the Swarovski ATS/STS. But that might be the reason why Nikon, Zeiss and Leica didn´t choose the same focal length for their big and their small scopes.

The question why Swarovski is offering big and small scopes with the same high magnifictions is easier answered. "Magnification sells" might be the philosophy behind this.

Steve