EXCLUSIVE 8x32 & 10x32 Zeiss FL binos

[Andy Bright]

Hot off the press, we can reveal that Zeiss are unveiling 32mm versions of the FL binoculars at the birdfair tomorrow. This a true exclusive to Birdforum, you will not have heard this anywhere else. Interestingly these 32mm versions use the Pechan prisms rather than the familiar Abbe Koenig prisms, daylight transmission figures are believed to be exceptional.
More news soon.
Andy at the birdfair.

[Adey Baker]

Well, having told my wife that we won't be spending much time on the optics stand as I already have a decent pair of bins, I'm now going to have to convince her that I 'need' to try out all the latest 32mm kit, etc, (for 'research' purposes only, of course!)

[Andy Ledger]

Be prepared to earn a helluva lot of brownie points over the next few months!

[AlanFrench]

Hot off the press, we can reveal that Zeiss are unveiling 32mm versions of the FL binoculars at the birdfair tomorrow. This a true exclusive to Birdforum, you will not have heard this anywhere else. Interestingly these 32mm versions use the Pechan prisms rather than the familiar Abbe Koenig prisms, daylight transmission figures are believed to be exceptional.
More news soon.
Andy at the birdfair.

Andy,

Got any specs on these? I have a nice pair of 7x42 binox, but think I could convince myself I need a smaller, lighter pair too <G>.

Clear skies, Alan

[gorank]

any photos of these treasures available?

[tlb]

Were these binoculars unveiled at Birdfair yesterday? Does anyone have any preliminary comments after having seen them?

[Andy Bright]

O.K. Andy live from the Birdfair. I will see if the Zeiss guys will let me have a few snaps of them tomorrow.
The units on show are very much prototypes in terms of build... the optics are perfect though. Looking through them, what struck me was the brightness of the view, amazing. CA wasn't detectable. More to follow.

[gorank]

O.K. Andy live from the Birdfair. I will see if the Zeiss guys will let me have a few snaps of them tomorrow.
The units on show are very much prototypes in terms of build... the optics are perfect though. Looking through them, what struck me was the brightness of the view, amazing. CA wasn't detectable. More to follow.

I guess you are a bit of a Zeiss-guy nowadays...

Can we trust your completely objective reviews of Zeiss binos....?? ;-)

anyway...I would love to see som pics of the jewels = the new binos..

[henry link]

Looking through them, what struck me was the brightness of the view, amazing.

Andy,

Anybody from Zeiss willing to reveal the actual light transmission figures for the 32mm FL's?

Henry

[Andy Bright]

I guess you are a bit of a Zeiss-guy nowadays...

Can we trust your completely objective reviews of Zeiss binos....?? ;-)

anyway...I would love to see som pics of the jewels = the new binos..Actually, you would be off the mark there. I stick by my earlier opinion that the Zeiss Diascope 85fl doesn't quite hit the top spot to my eyes vs the Swarovski ATS80HD (and I still prefer the image from the older AT80HD). So I couldn't be accused of being in the pay of Zeiss ...besides, unlike other companies, they don't pay any individuals to promote their products :-(

I don't think there's much doubt from those who have used the FLs that they do provide the best image of a bird vs other binos, it may be minor but I'm not really out on a limb here with my views.

Getting back to the 8x and 10x 32mm FL's ... didn't have time to snap any photos, just too busy, but I do have some press release photos.

[Andy Bright]

Andy,

Anybody from Zeiss willing to reveal the actual light transmission figures for the 32mm FL's?

Henry
Some specs from the press pack
F.O.V. 140m @ 1000m for the 8x32
F.O.V. 120m @ 1000m for the 10x32

Min focus is 2m

Weight 580g for the 8x32
Weight 590g for the 10x32

Length 117mm for the 8x32 (eye-cups retracted)
Length 117mm for the 10x32 (eye-cups retracted)

[tlb]

Some specs from the press pack
F.O.V. 140m @ 1000m for the 8x32
F.O.V. 120m @ 1000m for the 10x32

Min focus is 2m

Weight 580g for the 8x32
Weight 590g for the 10x32

Length 117mm for the 8x32 (eye-cups retracted)
Length 117mm for the 10x32 (eye-cups retracted)


Andy,

Any word on eye relief?

Thanks,

Tony

[CDK]

Agree Andy (the FL bit not the Swaro, but that down to the individual).

The Zeiss staff stand stated that the Pechan prism in this model (32 FL) has a higher than normal light transmission normally found in a mirrored surfaced roof prism. Available December IIRC.
The Ultravid 32 was good, as is the Swaro 32 ELs. We certainly have a good selection to choose from, might be interesting to see what the shops have to say and whether we will now get unbiased advice.

[gorank]

Actually, you would be off the mark there. I stick by my earlier opinion that the Zeiss Diascope 85fl doesn't quite hit the top spot to my eyes vs the Swarovski ATS80HD (and I still prefer the image from the older AT80HD). So I couldn't be accused of being in the pay of Zeiss ...besides, unlike other companies, they don't pay any individuals to promote their products :-(

I don't think there's much doubt from those who have used the FLs that they do provide the best image of a bird vs other binos, it may be minor but I'm not really out on a limb here with my views.

Getting back to the 8x and 10x 32mm FL's ... didn't have time to snap any photos, just too busy, but I do have some press release photos.

thanks for the photos..looks really nice...
I see the second hand value of my 8x32 leicas falling like a stone with all these new binos...

Im sure you are as objective as anyone on this forum. Its hard to be more than objective though...=)

[henry link]

The Zeiss staff stand stated that the Pechan prism in this model (32 FL) has a higher than normal light transmission normally found in a mirrored surfaced roof prism.


CDK,

Thanks for your first reply. Sorry to pester you again, but did the Zeiss staff say why their Pechan prism has higher than normal light transmission?

Henry

[Andy Bright]

Eye relief is 16mm.
Light transmission figures are over 92% daylight and around 90% night for the 8x's and very similar for the 10x's. The press pack also states "Schmidt-Pechan prisms with new dielectric mirror layers as a reverse system were used to economise on weight and space"

[henry link]

Eye relief is 16mm.
Light transmission figures are over 92% daylight and around 90% night for the 8x's and very similar for the 10x's. The press pack also states "Schmidt-Pechan prisms with new dielectric mirror layers as a reverse system were used to economise on weight and space"

Thanks for the transmission figures. I wonder, however, if the press pack has the right numbers since they are exactly the same as the light transmission figures for the FL models using AK prisms.

[Tero]

How does the FOV compare to Nikon Sporter 10x36 and 8x36? Mine are at home...

I am trying to get a feel for what 10x32 means. When I see something like 8.5x42, that actually looks close to what I want. The 10x36 I use is a bit narrow for the only pair to carry.

[Andy Bright]

Thanks for the transmission figures. I wonder, however, if the press pack has the right numbers since they are exactly the same as the light transmission figures for the FL models using AK prisms.
The transmission figures I gave are not quite the same as those I have for the 42mm FL's, they were also rounded down by myself to the nearest 1%

[Pileatus]

The transmission figures I gave are not quite the same as those I have for the 42mm FL's, they were also rounded down by myself to the nearest 1%

Andy,

Some of you have owned and used the EL 8.5/42 for many years. I have a simple question for you.

In your opinion, is the FL going to displace the EL as THE premier birding bin?

I know...it's not a simple question. However, if people are selling their EL's and purchasing FL's either they need the cash to buy the "latest and greatest", or they truly think the FL is the bin they'll use day in and day out. Which is it?

How about Peter Dunne? He helped design the EL and now praises the Ultravid...
http://www.njaudubon.org/NatureNotes/PickPackBinos9-03.pdf

Will Swarovski have to enhance their bins or is the EL line good enough to command the prices they do?

John

[Andy Bright]

Andy,

Some of you have owned and used the EL 8.5/42 for many years. I have a simple question for you.

In your opinion, is the FL going to displace the EL as THE premier birding bin?

I know...it's not a simple question. However, if people are selling their EL's and purchasing FL's either they need the cash to buy the "latest and greatest", or they truly think the FL is the bin they'll use day in and day out. Which is it?

How about Peter Dunne? He helped design the EL and now praises the Ultravid...
http://www.njaudubon.org/NatureNotes/PickPackBinos9-03.pdf

Will Swarovski have to enhance their bins or is the EL line good enough to command the prices they do?

John
The EL was (and still is) a brilliant design, the marketing was equally good. The success of the EL coincided with Swarovski's big push into the birding world in general, getting involved with all sorts of high profile enviromental projects. It became almost fashionable to have a pair of EL's around your neck... and judging from the recent birdfair, it still is, though the amount of birders with old Zeiss around their necks nearly equalled EL's? BN's were very evident but Ultravids were almost invisible after 12 months on the market, and they are optically better than the EL's. The style of the EL may carry it through another year or two and it does just feel right in many peoples hands.


If optical quality is the prime consideration, the FL will be the premier bino..... but like I say, there are other factors. I suspect we will just have to wait and see. There is some sort of backlash going on in regards to Swarovski at present, maybe as much to do with it's perceived trendiness (a dude's bino you would say in the U.K.) as pricing... which is a little unfair as it was optically at (or near) the top up until just 12 months or so ago.

For my own part (someone selling their EL's), I can afford the FL's so why not?... to me they are visibly better rather than reputably the better. I'm not too bothered with having a 'sexy' bino around my neck (nothing will ever help to make me look trendy!), they are little more than tools to me.

I must admit, I don't see any mass selling of EL's... quite a few people I have seen have sold their 42mm EL's to buy 32mm EL's (downsizing seems popular with the brightness achieved by modern 32mm binos)

Leica and Swarovski are companies that like to get well known figures onboard, the reasons for people to change sides are sometimes genuine love of the product....sometimes not.

Still, it's great to have so many great binos out there to choose from. Birders have never had it so good. Be interesting if someone can produce prices from 1970 or so and compare them in real terms to prices today (inflation et al). Recently everyone in the U.K. was complaining about the price of driving a car, in reality it's no different to 30 years ago... fuel, insurance and suchlike. In some ways car ownership was found to be cheaper today.

regards,
Andy

[dogfish]

Leica and Swarovski are companies that like to get well known figures onboard

Leica are the masters at this. A brochure on their stall at the British Bird Fair featured a wide range of birders from Europe and beyond extolling the virtues of Leica optics. They included Dick Forsman and Killian Mullarney, who were not using any Leica gear on a tour I was on four years ago. KM has in the past promoted Swarovski.
What phenomenon can have brought about this miraculous transformation? Not new gear in the case of the 77mm scope (one of the products extolled), that's been around for yonks.

Sean

[Curtis Croulet]

Perhaps my brethren in The Colonies can fill me in on this. I've seen stuff in reviews about people like Pete Dunne (well-known North American birder) being consulted in the design of the Swarovski EL, and the cover of his new book, Pete Dunne on Birding, shows him with an EL hanging from his neck (and a Leica 77 hoisted on his shoulder), but I'm not aware of recent ads that include testimonials or endorsements from famous birders or naturalists. Are there any?

Hmm, now that I think of it, I've seen ads from Eagle Optics with Kenn Kaufman promoting their EORPC bins.

[Sandy Martin]

Perhaps my brethren in The Colonies can fill me in on this. I've seen stuff in reviews about people like Pete Dunne (well-known North American birder) being consulted in the design of the Swarovski EL, and the cover of his new book, Pete Dunne on Birding, shows him with an EL hanging from his neck (and a Leica 77 hoisted on his shoulder), but I'm not aware of recent ads that include testimonials or endorsements from famous birders or naturalists. Are there any?

Hmm, now that I think of it, I've seen ads from Eagle Optics with Kenn Kaufman promoting their EORPC bins.

If you are a 'name' you don't have to give testimonials or endorsements, just being photographed or visible to the public with the manufacturers equipment is enough. Perhaps Mr Dunne was between sponsors at the time the photo was taken and was keeping his options open ;) If not, he probably got a got a good talking to.

Leica tend to have the biggest names in the U.K. tied up with deals. These names being television natural history presenters well known by non-birders.

Swarovski have some lesser lights in comparison but do have a whole monthly magazine in their pocket as well as serious influence with several organisations, you could call it a more subtle tactic.

Zeiss don't seem to go in for paying anyone, even though David Attenborough and Simon King use their gear.

Sandy

[Leif]

Perhaps my brethren in The Colonies can fill me in on this. I've seen stuff in reviews about people like Pete Dunne (well-known North American birder) being consulted in the design of the Swarovski EL, and the cover of his new book, Pete Dunne on Birding, shows him with an EL hanging from his neck (and a Leica 77 hoisted on his shoulder), but I'm not aware of recent ads that include testimonials or endorsements from famous birders or naturalists. Are there any?

Hmm, now that I think of it, I've seen ads from Eagle Optics with Kenn Kaufman promoting their EORPC bins.

In the UK Leica seem to have caught many of the well known names in the world of nature writing and TV although Zeiss seem to have held on to at least one well known writer and broadcaster (Simon King). I would guess that it is a combination of filthy lucre and flattery that gets them to sing the Leica song. Swarovski seem to prefer to sponsor nature projects and (according to sources on BF) fly influential people out to all expenses paid trips to try out their gear.

[Pinewood]

Are any of us, that is birdforum members, really impressed by endorsements or celebrity users of binoculars? The most such marketing may achieve, and not of little import, is that we might take a look at the product. I have already been stung by an "expert's" recommendation and would no longer buy any binocular except after a test view.

Indeed, Swarovski has been rather successful with its "more subtle" marketing techniques, but their products are not on my list of desiderata.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood :scribe:

[Pileatus]

The EL was (and still is) a brilliant design, the marketing was equally good. The success of the EL coincided with Swarovski's big push into the birding world in general, getting involved with all sorts of high profile enviromental projects. It became almost fashionable to have a pair of EL's around your neck... and judging from the recent birdfair, it still is, though the amount of birders with old Zeiss around their necks nearly equalled EL's? BN's were very evident but Ultravids were almost invisible after 12 months on the market, and they are optically better than the EL's. The style of the EL may carry it through another year or two and it does just feel right in many peoples hands.


If optical quality is the prime consideration, the FL will be the premier bino..... but like I say, there are other factors. I suspect we will just have to wait and see. There is some sort of backlash going on in regards to Swarovski at present, maybe as much to do with it's perceived trendiness (a dude's bino you would say in the U.K.) as pricing... which is a little unfair as it was optically at (or near) the top up until just 12 months or so ago.

For my own part (someone selling their EL's), I can afford the FL's so why not?... to me they are visibly better rather than reputably the better. I'm not too bothered with having a 'sexy' bino around my neck (nothing will ever help to make me look trendy!), they are little more than tools to me.

I must admit, I don't see any mass selling of EL's... quite a few people I have seen have sold their 42mm EL's to buy 32mm EL's (downsizing seems popular with the brightness achieved by modern 32mm binos)

Leica and Swarovski are companies that like to get well known figures onboard, the reasons for people to change sides are sometimes genuine love of the product....sometimes not.

Still, it's great to have so many great binos out there to choose from. Birders have never had it so good. Be interesting if someone can produce prices from 1970 or so and compare them in real terms to prices today (inflation et al). Recently everyone in the U.K. was complaining about the price of driving a car, in reality it's no different to 30 years ago... fuel, insurance and suchlike. In some ways car ownership was found to be cheaper today.

regards,
Andy

Andy,
Thanks for your insights.

Curtis,
There's a mention of Peter Dunne in this document from NJ Audubon.
http://www.njaudubon.org/NatureNotes/PickPackBinos9-03.pdf

John

[Grousemore]

Endorsements by 'celebrities' can actually put some people off a particular product.
Me for one.

[william j clive]

[QUOTE=Curtis Croulet]Perhaps my brethren in The Colonies can fill me in on this.


I'm amazed nobody has picked up on Curtis's colonies jibe. As a Welshman who is still being colonised, I'm not about to complain. It is, however, quite interesting that some Americans now regard Britain as a colony!

Clive

[Leif]

[QUOTE=Curtis Croulet]Perhaps my brethren in The Colonies can fill me in on this.


I'm amazed nobody has picked up on Curtis's colonies jibe. As a Welshman who is still being colonised, I'm not about to complain. It is, however, quite interesting that some Americans now regard Britain as a colony!

Clive

No doubt you'll soon be calling for the repatriation of the Saxons back to Northern Europe. ;) Was that a "Da iawn" I heard?

[william j clive]

No doubt you'll soon be calling for the repatriation of the Saxons back to Northern Europe. ;) Was that a "Da iawn" I heard?



No, not quite. Some of my best birding mates are 'economic migrants' from England. I call them economic migrants 'cos they sell their extremely expensive English homes, move to an inexpensive Welsh equivalent and spend the profit on Optics ;)

[Andy Bright]

[QUOTE=Curtis Croulet]Perhaps my brethren in The Colonies can fill me in on this.


I'm amazed nobody has picked up on Curtis's colonies jibe. As a Welshman who is still being colonised, I'm not about to complain. It is, however, quite interesting that some Americans now regard Britain as a colony!

Clive
I did a double take on that but I presumed Curtis was referring to his countrymen in this instance.
Andy

[Curtis Croulet]

When I was young, a long, long time ago (hint: I saw the Queen's coronation on TV), a stereotypical upper-crust Englishman on TV might refer to the US as "The Colonies." So in my message I was addressing my my fellow Americans. Please, please, I would never call you in the UK "The Colonies." I have too much respect for you and your country and its constituent nationalities to do that. Besides, I have significant English ancestry and Scots-Irish (does that term have any meaning in the UK?) on my mother's side, and I certainly wouldn't dishonor them.

[Bill Atwood]

Perhaps my brethren in The Colonies can fill me in on this. I've seen stuff in reviews about people like Pete Dunne (well-known North American birder) being consulted in the design of the Swarovski EL, and the cover of his new book, Pete Dunne on Birding, shows him with an EL hanging from his neck (and a Leica 77 hoisted on his shoulder), but I'm not aware of recent ads that include testimonials or endorsements from famous birders or naturalists. Are there any?

Hmm, now that I think of it, I've seen ads from Eagle Optics with Kenn Kaufman promoting their EORPC bins.

Leupold ran an ad for their Windriver bins which contained BVD review quotes and photos of Ingraham awhile back.

I don't believe we really have that many "famous" birders. I would think endorsements would be a nice way for some of the tour leaders from the big outfits to raise some extra bucks.

[Andy Bright]

I don't believe we really have that many "famous" birders. I would think endorsements would be a nice way for some of the tour leaders from the big outfits to raise some extra bucks.
You need superstar status to actually get cash from a company, we have two or three people in that category in the U.K.... the rest just get free equipment (long term loan or for keeps). I think many benefited with Swarovski's big push over the last few years, even a few members on BF got scopes and/or binos to my knowledge.

[helenol]

Are people seriously influenced by "celebrities" advertising brands of bins? If so, that surprises me, especially regarding birdwatching.

[Bill Atwood]

Are people seriously influenced by "celebrities" advertising brands of bins? If so, that surprises me, especially regarding birdwatching.


Well I would guess the majority of BF members aren't, but I assume enough others are that this type of advertising continues

With the forthcoming or newly available FLs, HGLs, Ultravids and ELs; I stand ready, willing and able to prostitute myself to one or all of the big 4! Unfortunately no one would notice.

[Pileatus]

When I was young, a long, long time ago (hint: I saw the Queen's coronation on TV), a stereotypical upper-crust Englishman on TV might refer to the US as "The Colonies." So in my message I was addressing my my fellow Americans. Please, please, I would never call you in the UK "The Colonies." I have too much respect for you and your country and its constituent nationalities to do that. Besides, I have significant English ancestry and Scots-Irish (does that term have any meaning in the UK?) on my mother's side, and I certainly wouldn't dishonor them.


"England and America are two countries divided by a common language."
George Bernard Shaw

[william j clive]

[QUOTE=Bill Atwood]Well I would guess the majority of BF members aren't, but I assume enough others are that this type of advertising continues



Bill Oddie of Leica fame also endorses Country Innovation clothing. An English birding mate of mine spent a fortnight back home, up North, in June.

He came back with a CI waistcoat that cost the best part of 50 quid. He had been hankering after one of these for a while after visiting Martin Mere and Inner Marsh Farm reserves in the winter and noting that 'anyone who was anyone wore a CI waistcoat'. Sad or what? I teasingly called him a fashion slave.

I wear a very nice unbranded waistcoat I picked up for a tenner at a game fair. I suppose that makes me an inverse snob, or something.

So, there is little doubt that this kind of advertising does work, at least in Britain.

Clive

[Leif]

[QUOTE=Bill Atwood]Well I would guess the majority of BF members aren't, but I assume enough others are that this type of advertising continues



Bill Oddie of Leica fame also endorses Country Innovation clothing. An English birding mate of mine spent a fortnight back home, up North, in June.

He came back with a CI waistcoat that cost the best part of 50 quid. He had been hankering after one of these for a while after visiting Martin Mere and Inner Marsh Farm reserves in the winter and noting that 'anyone who was anyone wore a CI waistcoat'. Sad or what? I teasingly called him a fashion slave.

I wear a very nice unbranded waistcoat I picked up for a tenner at a game fair. I suppose that makes me an inverse snob, or something.

So, there is little doubt that this kind of advertising does work, at least in Britain.

Clive

Many years ago I was strongly influenced by Bill Oddie's endorsement of Leica. I suspect I was not alone.

Leif

[CDK]

CDK,
Thanks for your first reply. Sorry to pester you again, but did the Zeiss staff say why their Pechan prism has higher than normal light transmission?
Henry


Henry.

I see that Andy has already answered your question, it is down to the special layers on the mirror surface, apparently something which has been known for a few years. However the Abbe Konig prism still has a higher light transmission than the Pechan, but apparently the transmission figures between one manufacturers use of Pechan versus another's use is quite different.

CDK

[CDK]

Many years ago I was strongly influenced by Bill Oddie's endorsement of Leica. I suspect I was not alone.
Leif

Leif.

Very honest reply and I would think that you are not alone, I would have thought that there are BF members who if being honest would also say that they wanted to own the same binoculars as the man himself.

Leica must take full credit for using Bill Oddie in their marketing campaign. No doubt he is one of the most knowledgeable birders around, but I always wondered about his optical knowledge, especially after "The Leica 62 Televid, something that I have been waiting for" (or similar wording). I see in their latest brochure featuring celebrities, Chris Packham is shown with the Televid, however on the Nikon stand at bird fair his name appeared under a paragraph for Nikon binoculars, previously he was shown with both Leica bins and scopes. The man who did all those reviews for Birdwatching, (Steve Dudly) is featured promoting the Televid, so maybe all those posts in BF about biased reviews did have some credibilitiy.

[dogfish]

I think Steve Dudley's long association with Leica is well-known. To be fair, he acts as a 'compiler' in Birdwatching mag's reviews these days, so presumably would say he's putting the facts together rather than offering an opinion that could be seen as biased.
At least he and Odd Billie are consistent in their brand loyalty.... it's the change of opinion that free gear seems to have prompted in some individuals featured in the Leica brochure that irks me. Well, not really, perhaps it just raises a cynical smile

Sean

[John Cantelo]

All this chat about these bins and nowhere - unless my eyes fail me - any suggestion about how much the damn things will actually cost vis a vis their bigger brothers & the competition! Anybody have any clue? John

[mak]

All this chat about these bins and nowhere - unless my eyes fail me - any suggestion about how much the damn things will actually cost vis a vis their bigger brothers & the competition! Anybody have any clue? John

John.

You obviously did not go to bird fair, because the Zeiss price list shows:
8x32 FL £905
10x32 FL £940

Apparently not available until December 2004.

[1894]

I must admit, I don't see any mass selling of EL's... quite a few people I have seen have sold their 42mm EL's to buy 32mm EL's (downsizing seems popular with the brightness achieved by modern 32mm binos)



I bought a pair of 8x32ELs to back up my 7x42BGATs. All people who do similar need to be warned that getting an x32 bino is going to make your x42 that used to be completely unoticable around your neck, seem like a huge awkward lead weight. Tested back to back at the absolute limit of shooting light I reckon the 7x42s picked up an extra 5 minutes. In the woods this might be extended somewhat.

8x32s are SO nice to use.

[Atomic Chicken]

Curtis,

Regarding this:

Perhaps my brethren in The Colonies can fill me in on this. I've seen stuff in reviews about people like Pete Dunne (well-known North American birder) being consulted in the design of the Swarovski EL, and the cover of his new book, Pete Dunne on Birding, shows him with an EL hanging from his neck (and a Leica 77 hoisted on his shoulder), but I'm not aware of recent ads that include testimonials or endorsements from famous birders or naturalists. Are there any?

I don't know how it is in the U.K., I can only speak from my experience here in the heartland of the U.S.A.

For the most part, Americans are (somewhat contrary to world opinion) extremely pragmatic and typically interested only in what works the BEST for the given task. Certainly, we "yanks" have our share of idiots and brainless advertising victims, but the vast majority of these types are unable to afford the types of optics we are discussing on this thread... they are instead likely to purchase Tasco or Bushnell, often second-hand at thrift stores or swap meets.

In this area (Midwestern United States), the birders I have had contact with have been split roughly into 3 camps.... Leica (most common), Nikon (close 2nd) and Swarovski (quite rare). I am the ONLY person I have ever run across who has owned either Zeiss or Pentax optics, they seem to be the rarest of the binocular brands in this area. I have YET to meet a birder in this area who knows of anyone in the "celebrity" birding world other than Steve Ingraham of BVD, and I've met ZERO birders who have based their equipment purchase decisions on the opinions of industry celebrities or magazines. I would say that probably 10% base their decision on what brand is the most expensive, regardless of objective optical quality (thus the rare Swarovski users in this area), around 50% base their decision on what binoculars are in the "high-end" (read "expensive") range and also have excellent optical quality (the Leica majority), and the remaining 40% or so look at ALL options and select the best quality optics, regardless of reputation or price range (the Nikon owners).

I have YET to see a pair of Zeiss FL binoculars in this area.... in fact, I am the only birder in this area I have ever run across who owns Zeiss of ANY kind... my 8X20 compacts). I have found that a grand total of ONE shop in the area has ordered Zeiss FL binoculars (and luckily for me, they consequently discounted earlier Victory II models!). I am curious if the new FL will find a place with the birders in this area... but if past experience is any guide, these will probably do quite well here.

Is this enough of a "colonies" viewpoint for you? I hope it has been somewhat informative...

Best wishes,
Bawko

[AlanFrench]

Curtis,

[SNIP] and the remaining 40% or so look at ALL options and select the best quality optics, regardless of reputation or price range (the Nikon owners).

Bawko

Bawko,

I don't think "best quality optics" is the deciding factor for many folks. There are many quality binoculars with excellent optics. I think for many folks fit and feel are the main factors in determining which of these the buyer selects. Some binoculars that were highly recommended to me, and are certainly superb optically, just weren't right for me. Two felt very awkward in my hands, and the focus on another was too slow for my taste.

Clear skies, Alan

[Curtis Croulet]

I usually work on weekends and don't have much chance to go to birding events, but on the organized bird outings I've been able to attend, I don't see many high-end binos. Of the binos I've seen, I'd have to say that Leica easily outnumbers all of the other high-end brands put together. At those unscheduled gatherings of experienced birders tracking down a reported rarity, Leica, B&L and Swarovski, in that order, are probably the most abundant brands I've seen. Nikon is rare; Zeiss is almost invisible.

[Atomic Chicken]

I usually work on weekends and don't have much chance to go to birding events, but on the organized bird outings I've been able to attend, I don't see many high-end binos. Of the binos I've seen, I'd have to say that Leica easily outnumbers all of the other high-end brands put together. At those unscheduled gatherings of experienced birders tracking down a reported rarity, Leica, B&L and Swarovski, in that order, are probably the most abundant brands I've seen. Nikon is rare; Zeiss is almost invisible.


Curtis,

This is very interesting to hear. It sounds like in Europe, or at least in the U.K., the situation is similar to the U.S. with 2 exceptions. First off, it sounds like B&L has made significant inroads in your country... in the U.S. they are almost non-existent. Secondly, Nikon seems to be quite a bit more common here than in the U.K., at least from your experience. Other than that, the relative "ranking" of different brands in terms of commonality seems to be identical. Leica is #1, Swarovski is rare, and Zeiss is almost non-existent.

Best wishes,
Bawko

[Bill Atwood]

Well..............around this part of the US for high end bins, Swaro is very popular, especially the closer you get to Chicago. They showed up like corn being popped shortly after they became available. Zeiss Classics are fairly popular as are the B&L Elites. Leica (which I currently use) is down the list and Nikon is last. Not sure I've ever seen anyone with the LXs. I've seen one Brunton Epoch which I want to get my hands on again.

I expect to see more Zeiss Classics and B&Ls Elites being retired in the next few years.

[william j clive]

Curtis,

This is very interesting to hear. It sounds like in Europe, or at least in the U.K., the situation is similar to the U.S. with 2 exceptions. First off, it sounds like B&L has made significant inroads in your country... in the U.S. they are almost non-existent. Secondly, Nikon seems to be quite a bit more common here than in the U.K., at least from your experience. Other than that, the relative "ranking" of different brands in terms of commonality seems to be identical. Leica is #1, Swarovski is rare, and Zeiss is almost non-existent.

Best wishes,
Bawko

I think Curtis is waving the stars and stripes, and lives in California? ;)


Curtis, are you a priest or a wedding photographer? ;)

[Andy Bright]

I'd suggest that because birding has been a significant pastime in the U.K. (and maybe Northern Europe) for far longer than it has in North America, we see far more older high quality binos still in use... which invariably means Zeiss and Leica.
regards,
Andy

[Curtis Croulet]

Maybe you're right, Andy. Only 100 years ago, Americans were more interested in blasting Passenger Pigeons and Carolina Parakeets out of the skies and into extinction.

[Andy Bright]

Maybe you're right, Andy. Only 100 years ago, Americans were more interested in blasting Passenger Pigeons and Carolina Parakeets out of the skies and into extinction.
Well, we're no angels either, even to this day... but i think it's fair to say that 'birding' has been in an advanced state for many decades in the U.K. Which leads to having a large number of more mature birders with equally mature binos ;)

As I stated before, the recent birdfair (by far the largest birding event in the world) showed just how many old Zeiss binos are still in use by British birders. Someone mentioned B&L but I think I just saw one pair during the 3 day event. A few Minox binos were around, which was interesting..... apparently they have some very good products on the market according to very respected sources.

regards,
Andy

[william j clive]

I'd suggest that because birding has been a significant pastime in the U.K. (and maybe Northern Europe) for far longer than it has in North America, we see far more older high quality binos still in use... which invariably means Zeiss and Leica.
regards,
Andy


I cannot say that I am in total agreement, Andy, because the Americans have been innovative in so many ways. ABA, Bird Races, year listing, National listing have all come from America. Perhaps they are more competitive than we are.

[Curtis Croulet]

What's a "bird race?"