Countryfile - Photo Competition. Ethical Photo?

[Johnny1]

I'd like to hear what other members feel about the photograph of the three dormice which was picked as one of the finalists in the photo competition on Sundays program, surely these sleeping/hibernating dormice must have been removed from their nests to take this photo? I don't think a photo that shows animals that have been disturbed in this way should be allowed.

[Marmot]

I watched Countryfile yesterday to see the finallists that they had picked for the Photo Competition. I must say I was quite disapointed on most of them that they had chosen.

I am not sure if it is me being over critical, but I have seen far better in Birdforums Competitions and in the Gallery. An example of this is the Insect ones they chose, quite a few of our entries from our recent comp. far outshone what they had decided on.

I think this shows what a high standard of pictures and photographers that we have in BF !

Here is a link to the ones they have decided on.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/environment/programmes/countryfile/photocomp_2004.shtml

[Adey Baker]

There's an old saying for any competition - 'If you don't enter, you can't win!'

I wonder if any BF members have actually entered the BBC competition?

They can only choose the finalists from those that have entered. I've not looked at the link above, yet, but often they will be looking for something else in a competition other than a proficient shot.

We may admire a sharp, well exposed shot that shows all the features of a particular species, whereas the judges may just see the subject as more or less incidental to the overall composition (A couple of rules for any photo comp: read the rules carefully and find out all you can about the judge's preferences!).

[interested]

Muscardinus avellanarius is one of Britain's most endangered mammals. Action described above is illegal.

Appendix
Seen that picture now. Looks like a case of animal pedophilia to me.

Plus the Parus montanus there http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/environment/programmes/countryfile/photocomp_2004.shtml is not montanus but palustris.

[helenol]

Marmot, have you had a look at this ongoing thread below? I assume it's discussing the same comp as you are?

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=24719

Regards

[Marmot]

The link won't give me access to anything. Or is it in ruffled feathers which I am not subscribed to.

[helenol]

ahh yes, it's in the Ruffled Feathers forum.

[Andrew Rowlands]

Muscardinus avellanarius is one of Britain's most endangered mammals. Action described above is illegal.

Appendix
Seen that picture now. Looks like a case of animal pedophilia to me.

Plus the Parus montanus there http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/environment/programmes/countryfile/photocomp_2004.shtml is not montanus but palustris.

"* Dormice are protected in the UK. Steven Robinson had a licence to handle these three." - from the bottom of the finalists page.

This is not enough of an excuse to show this photo as part of an open competition - this may cause a few 'loonies' to try to emulate this shot for their own 'collection'.

Tut, tut, BBC - not very responsible, methinks!

Andy.

[walwyn]

The websirte notes that they are protected an a special licence was required to handle them. There was also a Bill Oddie program where they went about opening nest boxes looking for dormice too.

[Andrew Rowlands]

I've emailed Countryfile with my comments, I suggest that others do the same if they are unhappy with this being published. Details are on their website.

Andy.

[Andy Bright]

I also had my doubts about the shot.
I've moved this thread to the main forums as it's totally on-topic and deserves a better airing.

[Andrew Rowlands]

It seems that the Countryfile email address has a bad redirect - I've had 'bounces' from it. If anyone feels the need to contact them, I suggest using the form at http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/feedback/feedback.shtml?http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/environment/programmes/countryfile/photocomp_2004.shtml

Andy.

[Marmot]

I thought that no matter how "cute" they may have looked this picture should not be allowed even if it encourages one person to do the same, it is still one too many .
As Andrew quite correctly said "This is not enough of an excuse to show this photo as part of an open competition - this may cause a few 'loonies' to try to emulate this shot for their own 'collection'."
I don't think they actually mentioned about the licence when the programme was getting transmitted, but I may be wrong.

Just going slightly off at a tangent but I started a thread this morning on the overall standard of the photos that reached the final http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=24727

[Andrew Rowlands]

ahh yes, it's in the Ruffled Feathers forum.

Try http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=24719 Andy Bright thought it too good to keep "hidden".

Andy.

[Andy Bright]

I've now merged the threads into this one, which makes it look a bit odd in places but it simplifies things to an extent

[christineredgate]

Photographing those little dormice is akin to being to close to nesting birds.Nothing is sacred from unscrupulous people.But when I was watching Countryfile yesterday,and there were glimpses of the photos ,I am sure I recognised a few.The Robin on a log,the Kingfisher,did anyone from BF enter the comp?.

[christineredgate]

It seems that the Countryfile email address has a bad redirect - I've had 'bounces' from it. If anyone feels the need to contact them, I suggest using the form at http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/feedback/feedback.shtml?http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/environment/programmes/countryfile/photocomp_2004.shtml

Andy.
Thanks for the link,Andrew.I have suggested they ask the photographer exactly how he obtained his shot.

[Johnny1]

I'm pleased to see it wasn't only me who thought these pics are in poor taste, I watched the programme from beginning to end and don't remember anything being said about the photographer having a licence/permit to photograph these dormice. and as already stated it could encourage others to actively search out dormice to try similar shots.

[Bill@dwp]

Not exactly the same but similar from Sunday. I saw an article http://www.people.co.uk/petsandpeople/ and it listed animals that had moved into the urban environment. Usual things foxes, badgers etc. But it also included Sparrowhawks, there wasn't much detail in the whole article just a basic list, but the thing that aggravated me was under a picture of a sparrowhawk was the caption "Can be vicious". It made me think what some else who knew little about them would interpret that to mean, i.e. could attack people, children, pets!

I think I know what they were getting at but at the same time they have not thought through the consquences, just like the dormice.

[Andrew Rowlands]

Just received a reply from the Countryfile director....

"Thank you for your concerns regarding the picture of the three dormice
in our photographic competition. The photographer does hold a dormice
licence to monitor dormice and we were assured at the time of judging
that the mice would have been temporarily removed from their nest as
part of a scientific project which ultimately could increase numbers of
dormice and help protect the species. It was with these assurances that
we were happy to put the picture through to the final twelve. We have
made this point on our website and should the picture win the
competition, the circumstances under which the picture was taken will be
made very clear to the viewers in the programme."

...which seems to indicate that the issue was not mentioned during the broadcast.

Perhaps it's time to contact English Nature and ask their opinion?

Andy.

[birdman]

Hmmm... methinks it might still be worth expressing one's discomfiture.

I don't have a problem with Countryfile, but this seems like an attempt to skirt the issue.

Anyone who sees this photo, but does not see any associated explanation, may be unaware of the licence requirements, and may disturb dormice to obtain a similar photo.

That's the main point surely... although as a slightly more trivial aside, no matter how good the photo might be, I hope it doesn't win the competition, as it is simply unfair for a general competition to reward someone with special access to the subject at the expense of the other entrants not afforded this privilege.

[Adey Baker]

Just received a reply from the Countryfile director....

"... should the picture win the
competition, the circumstances under which the picture was taken will be
made very clear to the viewers in the programme."



As this is, presumably, a Countryfile viewers' competition, should it win, it raises the possibility of the programme having to say, "All of you 'ordinary' viewers are not allowed to take a shot like this!" - or "You're all equal, but some are more equal than others."

[simon]

Just received a reply from the Countryfile director....

"Thank you for your concerns regarding the picture of the three dormice
in our photographic competition. The photographer does hold a dormice
licence to monitor dormice and we were assured at the time of judging
that the mice would have been temporarily removed from their nest as
part of a scientific project which ultimately could increase numbers of
dormice and help protect the species. It was with these assurances that
we were happy to put the picture through to the final twelve. We have
made this point on our website and should the picture win the
competition, the circumstances under which the picture was taken will be
made very clear to the viewers in the programme."

...which seems to indicate that the issue was not mentioned during the broadcast.

Perhaps it's time to contact English Nature and ask their opinion?

Andy.

Just recieved exactly the same reply, does't exactly answer the point that this photo being shown in an open comp could lead to a loonie doing exactly the same "because it was shown on contryfile"
Unless they have updated the website all it stated last night was that the photographer held a licience to handle dormice,even this was in vary small type at the bottom, nothing about any assurances given to the judges that they had been disturbed as part of a scientific project which ultimately could increase numbers of
dormice and help protect the species, strikes me as strange that photo's taken for this reason suddenly appear in the final of this comp and will now be plastered all over the country in the calender

[Andy Bright]

As this is, presumably, a Countryfile viewers' competition, should it win, it raises the possibility of the programme having to say, "All of you 'ordinary' viewers are not allowed to take a shot like this!" - or "You're all equal, but some are more equal than others."
Exactly my thoughts. I wonder how many would vote for it if they knew the circumstances.
Personally, I liked the shot of the Swans and hope that wins... but I have a feeling the Dormice will win it for the 'cute' factor alone.

[PhilH]

My reaction, upon seeing the dormice, was similar. I really don't know what was going through the judges' minds when they decided that this was a good candidate. Regardless of handling/photography license, the act of moving the 3 mice from nest site on to a patch of cold damp moss for the sake of a photo is certainly, to my mind, ethically questionable.

[Andrew Rowlands]

I've mailed English Nature for their take on it.

Andy.

[Andrew Rowlands]

My email has been passed on to the "liscensing section".

Andy.

[Marmot]

I have sent one to Countryfile and I am awaiting a reply.

I have taken on our main concerns that we have been raising on here along with a comment that the phographer is in a privieleged position which 99% of us do not have.
I also raised the point that would a picture taken by a bird ringer say of an Osprey,Capercaillie or likewise who then arranged them in the nest be treated in the same way.

[Geoff Brown]

I've a feeling the dormice will win from the cute factor alone. Now that I have read all of the above I shall not be very happy about it if it does. The Swans or the Welsh landscape were my favourites but we shall see in a fortnights time when phone in results are known.

[Andrew Rowlands]

Received a reply from info@beeb:-

"I note you were concerned by the inclusion of Steven Robinson's 'Three
Doormice' picture in the 2004 'Countryfile' photography competition. I did
raise your concerns with the programme makers who advise me that you have
already been in touch them. As a result there is not a great deal I can
add to the response they have offered you.

I would reemphasise that the photographer who took 'Three Doormice' does
hold a licence to monitor doormice and the programme were assured at the
time of judging that the mice had been temporarily removed from their nest
as part of a scientific project which ultimately could help protect the
species. It was only on the basis of these assurances that the programme
makers accepted the photograph. The issue has also been made clear at the
website and will be raised in the programme.

However, I recognise that you feel the pictures set a bad example and
should not have been included amongst the finalists. Please be assured
that your concerns have been registered and added to a daily log which is
made available to programme makers and senior editorial staff.

Editorial & Investigation Team
BBC Information"

Andy.

[Marmot]

Has anyone thought of contacting "points of view" about this.

[Andrew Rowlands]

Has anyone thought of contacting "points of view" about this.
You've got the job - hope your accent's not too broad ;)

Andy.

[christineredgate]

It will be interesting to see/hear if on either the next Countryfile prog,or the prog when the winning entry is announced if any comment is made re the e-mails which have been sent re the dormice.

[Marmot]

You've got the job - hope your accent's not too broad ;)

Andy.
No way are they hearing my voice, they will have to put up subtitles :-0
too many people say our Teesside accent take some understanding.

[Johnny1]

Yeah, another point, I thought this competition was supposed to be photographs of British WILDlife yet a photograph of a snake (grass?) eating a frog was dismissed as being unsuitable for the calander! even though the quality of the pic looked excellent, the person who took that pic must have spent hours trying to get that shot. Why don't they make it clear from the start that they only want PRETTY pictures.
P.S. Just in case anyone is wondering I didn't enter the comp. nor do I know anyone who has.

[Andrew Rowlands]

Ok, I've had a reply from English Nature; attached below with a copy of my email to them.

Andy.

[Elizabeth Bigg]

I have just read in today's Guardian that the photo of the dormice is the winner!

[Andy Bright]

I have just read in today's Guardian that the photo of the dormice is the winner!
All too predictable |8||

[helenol]

the photo of the dormice is the winner!
No surprise there then.

[christineredgate]

Yes,when the chap was interviewed it was mentioned that there had been several comments re the ethics of the photo.The guy concerned said that he is registered to monitor dormice nests etc.But I still think it was very unkind to move them just for the sake of a photograph.

[IanF]

I'm afraid it totally devalued the competition for me - a shame as I quite like Countryfile.

Whilst it was a nice photo I still think it was unethical to have it as an entry considering their status but more so as it was a competition for viewers to participate in - I'd have thought a good photo of a more widely attainable subject should have been chosen rather than one available to just a select few of scientific workers.

[interested]

I have just read in today's Guardian that the photo of the dormice is the winner!
Long live the democracy :clap: :clap: :clap: