reintroduction

[seb_seb]

http://www.britishwildboar.org.uk/

what do you think?
any1 know how to post a vote poll?? if not just type "yes" if u think they should be reintroduced and "no" if u think they should not.

[Booga]

I absolutely think they should be reintroduced. I support both the scottish wolf project and the wild boar scheme. Obviously not in urban parks and woodland!!!

Take care

Boogs

[Camberley red]

What the hell do you want wild boars roaming around woods for, one nearly killed me in Germany, in the end I wasn't sure who was more frightened. The UK is not big enough for such animals.

Just a view!

Paul

[peter hayes]

Seb

You write in the certain knowledge that no wild boar will be running down the streets of Walsall! I was there today, and it is clearly not suitable.

But seriously, I agree with Camberley Red. This island ain't big enough and these things can be dangerous!

[T0ny]

Originally posted by Peter Hayes
This island ain't big enough and these things can be dangerous!

Can we apply this argument to motor cars, too ?

The only reservations I have about re-introducing them is that some barbarian with more pockets than brain cells will start 'hunting' them, not for food but for so-called sport.

[peter hayes]

Quite so, T0ny.............

[seb_seb]

if we got rid of tony blairs ears then there might be room for a few wild boar. and anyway they have as much right to live here as you,or me,or some random person living in dudley

[Booga]

There are many places in the british isles where they could flourish. The reintroduction projects do not and would not put them in places where harm may come to people. In fact probably the only way somebody could be hurt is if they were tresspassing on a reserve. I was nearly killed by a swan as a child, that was just walking along a public footpath. Of course, the swans need no reintroduction, but if it were the case they might be considered dangerous. Thats not my view by the way just an example.

Take care

Boogs

The world is a better place for biodiversity.

[paula]

Yes, I believe they are out there already.
I am not in favour as I also feel that there is not enough room in the UK for those animals, they need large forests to roam and hide in.
They will get run-over on the roads, uproot people's precious lawns and generally create havoc.
When there are too many, farmers will get fed-up with them and start to shoot them.
I can see it end in tears. So..........No, No.

[Johnny1]

I've heard the Red Deer population is getting out of hand in Scotland...how about introducing a few Mountain Lions to thin their numbers?

[winkle]

No need to re-introduce Wild Boar. Already here and well established in woods in West Kent.

Complete cobblers that they pose any danger. Rarely seen, few people even know they are there. Do do a bit of damage to crops though.

Seen as a welcome addition to the county's fauna. Their grubbing about adds a bit of diversitity to the woodland.

We've got Beavers too!

[jayhunter]

Wild boar would be more acceptable than illegal immigrants, intent on wreaking havoc on the West!!

[seb_seb]

yes there is something like half a million more red and roe deer than the space can hold..and there have been discussion about possible wolf reintroduction to the highlands. i admit that wild boar could be dangerous|(they are quite stupid) but in places like romania wolf roam the streets and woods day and night and in the united states since reintroductions of wolf packs there have been no deaths due to wolves. of course in britain the wolf would be only reintroduced into places that are well out the way and have sufficient space,the scottish highlands.

[seb_seb]

beavers eh?

[jayhunter]

Wolves roaming the streets of Glasgow early Sunday mornings, shudder to think what easy pickings they would find. Beavers eh!!

[winkle]

Yep. European Beaver have been introduced as an experiment in Kent.

If it all works out maybe there will be a larger scale re-introduction countrywide.

The UK is the last European country without Beaver, to re-introduce them. There have been no problems in the other countries, if fact they have become tourist attractions.

[seb_seb]

is there any news on this beaver experiment?

[Paul 42]

No no no no no!!!! They have been reintroduced here in France during the last 30 years and have bred to such an extent that they devastate crops. They have no natural predators apart from man. This enables men with guns to boast that they hunt boars to protect the farmers crops, convieniently forgetting it was the hunters that introduced them in the first place!! To sum up, the only winners are the hunting fraternity, don't let anyone tell you otherwise!

[IanF]

I think myself that they have already been reintroduced over here. Certainly a couple of wild pigs if not wild boar are living wild in a couple of forests that I know of.
I suppose they would make a walk through the woods a little more exhilerating if one should decide to take exception to your presence, but on the whole I don't think there is any real need to reintroduce such a creature. It's presence is likely to cause more problems than benefits.

[seb_seb]

there will be problems...but you have to remember that they are/were native to britain..and have rights to stay here..and also have benefits to the enviroment and wildlife. i must say the fact that there is no predator of adult boars is definately a downpoint...there are lots of predators on young boars from foxes to buzzard.

[LuBird]

I voted no, but if they were reintroduced in a responsible way and studied for possitive and adverse effects, it might have some beneficial impact.

Are they on the endangered species list?

[seb_seb]

in europe i think they are stated as vulnerable(not sure though)and i agree with tony. britain cannot go about telling other countries to protect there large and dangerous animals......without doing so themselves.

[steve_nova]

In the space of ten thousand years (since the end of the last ice age) many of the UK's plants and animals devoloped into forms that were distinct enough from their mainland relatives to be given recognised status as such.

I wonder if the Wolf and the Boar that used to live in the UK had also developed into distinct enough forms to have been given an epithet like the Scottish Wild Cat's scientific name (Felis sylvestris scotica)

Small point though this is, our native form of Wolf, Boar and Beaver are lost forever from this island that made them special. These reintroduced forms will be from continental stock so technically not native, and not quite the same.

I know I'm being pedantic and it depends where you want to draw the line. You could of course argue that if the native form is gone forever, then the next nearest thing will do. That may be seen as quite acceptable.

Perhaps we should concentrate on preserving the areas that they need in Scandinavia etc., instead of trying to reintroduce.

Kop out I know, I just don't know what to do on this one.

[winkle]

The reintoduction of Beaver is more aimed at management than just having them back for the sake of it.

As the UK has lost most of its large browsers, there is a constant battle on wetland sites stopping the succession to woodland and drying out. At the moment the only remedy is costly work by contractors or horrible work for voluteers.

The hope is that Beaver will do the work for us.

Next stop Elk! Works in Holland.

[Gaye Horn]

We have a a wild Boar ranch here and whislt it is an interesting place to go by and take a look, I see that these animals really tear up the land..I have only seen one wild boar and it was in Europe in the early 90's and that scared me silly!
If these were re-introduced what exactly would be the reason again?They take up alot of space and from what I hear you do not have alot of extra of that.. and aren't they dangerous animals?

[winkle]

Crammed into a Boar farm, they will churn the place up. In Kent we still have some fairly extensive woodlands and you have to look quite hard to find signs of Wild Boar.

There is a developing view amoung conservationists, that in the name of diversity, Wild Boar are a good thing. Not the addition of them alone, but the diversity that their grubbing about creates.

The diversity of English woodlands is poor. In Global terms they are only of international importance for one macro-species - Bluebell, and that's an artificial situation; Wild Boar like Bluebell bulbs.

English woods have always been heavily influenced by man - having escentially both arriving at the same time after the last ice age.

The traditionally forms of woodland management i.e. coppicing, that much of our woodland flora and fauna are adapted to is collapsing.

It is hoped that Wild Boar may help by keeping rides open and open areas open. Their grubbing about opens ground up for annual plants to germinate, providing necter sources for invetebrates, etc, etc.

The danger element is over blown. I have discussed it with a number of Frenchmen and they rarely see them. Yes, there have been attacks, but the tabloid hype of hoards of Boar attacking anyone that enters a wood or killing every dog in sight (would that be a bad thing though), is cobblers.

They do, however, cause crop damage.

The sooner they reach the woods in East Kent the better!

[Ashley beolens]

210 views and only 20 people have voted!! thats shocking, I thought voter apathey was only towards politics!

Just don't let the press get hold of this imagine the out cry "Asylum seeking pigs invade Britain"

[David]

I sympathise with the thought behind the reintroduction of what was - a long time ago - a native species in Britain but, on balance do not think it would work.


For what it's worth, from my own, fairly extensive experience of Sus scrofa in Germany and the Czech Republic the wild boar:

- needs extensive forests which no longer exist in Britain on the continental scale
- will otherwise cause damage and be a pest (I've had to chase one out of my dustbin with a garden rake - and yes I had shut the garden gate. They can burrow under chain-mesh fences.)
- stock needs controlling. You end up with the hunter feeding - hunting - rearing cycle) We have enough of that!
- If the wild boar then I want to see the wolf and the bear too (actually a wolverine in the garden of No. 10 might not be a bad idea either)

BUT:

- the meat is delicious and very low on chloresterol
- the striped young are just sweet ;-)
- like most mammals (excluding us) only the females with young* are dangerous

(* in humans ALL females)

[winkle]

The lack of predetors is causing the most discussion in regards to Boar and Beaver.

And the only answer would be be culling or re-locating.

Both animals are being viewed more as useful management tools than anything else and the benefits to Kent's would outweigh the problems.

[Paul 42]

Winkle I see you are for reintroduction but it two posts you've mentioned the main problems this would cause. Crop damage- since this thread started I saw an item on the TV news here. In the region of Alsace Boars caused 30 million Euros damage last year. That's about 197 Million pounds! In one year! Now I don't know about you but I can think of other uses for this money. Secondly as you admit the only way to control them will be by culling. As I said in my first post, the only winners are the hunters.These are not cuddly creatures that stay in their alloted zone, they need vast amounts of space and will expand in population at an amazing rate. As they are a strain bred mostly in captivity, they have no fear of Man and will soon be uprooting your garden. On the other hand, I've never heard of them attacking humans, I just think the question raises more problems than solutions.

[winkle]

The problem in Kent, can't speak for the rest of the UK, unlike most of Europe is that our woodland has always been 'managed' by man and a good percentage of woodland wildlife is adapted to that management. That system has now collapsed because its products are now uneconomic or unwanted, cheaper to import.

The result is that consevation bodies are having to spend a lot of money paying contractors to cut and burn coppice or thousands of volunteer hours being used up. If not our woodland will just revert to fairly worthless overage coppice, its value to wildlife being the cycle of cutting and regrowth.

As I said the view is that Wild Boar and Beaver are being viewed as management tools not just being re-introduced simply because we can. Beaver having a role in keeping invading willow scrub in check and channels open on wetland sites and Boar keeping rides open and open areas, such as the ones that were created by 1989s hurricane open with their activities.

The issues of culling have been well argued, in fact the it was first question I asked when the Beaver Project first popped up. I do not have a problem with hunting Boar, if it is sustainable in the same fashion as wildfowling in the UK. Could be extra income oppertunity for landowners. I've worked on a lot of estates that have shoots; if you want to see run of the mill wildlife, they are the places to go. If the Beaver trial is successful the hope is that
the excess animals will be moved onto other sites, but it is accepted that a time may come when culling is necessary.

I think you have your sums wrong, 30 million Euros = 20 million pounds. If this amount of damage was done to crops and landowners compensated it is a similar to the amount being paid out in Woodland grants to keep the coppice cycle going or being spent by convervation bodies. I think its Norway, their Beaver have become a tourist attraction, so again another financial gain.

I'm very much not a people person, so i admit I'm not especially intrested in the impact on humans, but obviously it is being monitored.

[MikePearson]

Okee dokee,

We lose the red kite and nearly lose several other species of native birds! Much work has been undertaken, with considerable success to re-introduce them. Brilliant, we all welcome that.

So why are so many of you against re-introducing mammals that were once prolific in these islands? It wasn't to small then and it isn't now. I am probably gonna make loads of enemies here but I think that there is a strong case for bringing back all our once indigenous species, especially as there is an increasingly larger amount of ex-farmland becoming available.

My arguement is, you cant pick and choose, you want some back but not others. This creates an unatural imbalance of species. You also have to allow that humans are also part of the equation!

I would remind many of you that if it wasn't for wildfowlers and I am not one, there would be far less habitat for waders, ducks and geese.

Oh well, I guess I'm gonna get a lot of flack for this post but I for one relish the excitement of seeing bear, wolf, boar and beaver on my walks in the countryside.

A final thought, They are more scared of us than we are of them! After all we have been there top predator for thousands of years.

:t:

[winkle]

Mike - could not agree with you more.

Red Kite have an ah factor and RSPB has lots of money.

Wild Boar have a bad press and The Mammal Society don't have the cash.

[steve_nova]

The population of Britain around the year 1600 (when boar became extinct) was just over 4 million people.

The population of Britain now is approximately 60 million.

There aren't many areas of extensive woodland left and what woodland there is, is usually surrounded by farmland.

You are right of course about wildfowlers allowing suitable wetland habitat to be preserved.

The same can be said for sheep grazing the chalk downs. An artificial, man made environment, but look at the range of wild flowers that make it their home.

I just don't think (if extensive forest is what they need) that the UK has enough of the right environment. If we had a Black Forest or a Bialowieza forest here, then that would be ok.

[winkle]

Kent has plenty of suitable woodland. In fact it has more woodland than it had 200 years ago if secondary woodland is included.

There's thought to be the best part of 2000 Boar already in the UK's woods, but you would not know it.

This vision of the UK as wall to wall trees after the ice age is in doubt. It is possible that there was as much land in cultivation in the Bronze Age as at the beginning of WWI. The massive changes came after WWI and during and after WWII after our inability to produce all our food needs was used as a weapon agianst us.

[steve_nova]

Thanks for that winkle. I must say that I'm surprised at how many there are out there.

Do farmers say anything about them invading their crops as was mentioned earlier in these posts? I can imagine turnips or beet being very agreeable.

I was aware that wild boar turned the soil in woodland creating disturbed ground for others to take advantage of.

This is presumebly what the original Robin and Blackbird followed round the forests before friendly gardeners came along with their spades!

[seb_seb]

in what counties can the wild boar be seen?

[winkle]

There is crop damage, but farmers almost expect reduced yeilds from arable adjacent to woods. If Boer don't do it Rabbits. Deer even Badgers will.

Don't think there's any Sugar Beet grown in Kent, and the areas where root crops are grown do not have much in the way of woodland, apart from the odd field of Mangolds for winter feed for livestock.

The largest concentration is in woods on the Kent/Sussex border and spreading East.

Kent is the most wooded county in the UK. Just look at a map. The large Ham Street/Orlestone Forest complex to the west, the Canterbury ring woods - Blean and Denge Wood Complexes, large lumps of the tops of the Downs are wooded.

[Paul 42]

Mike Pearson - of course you're right my sums are way out. The wifes fault, I'm too thick to work out Euros~Francs~Pounds and I think my wife got mixed up with the zeros!! Having said that I still stick to my argument that that is a lot of taxpayers' money paid out to compensate hunters sport. Many regions here pay out so much in compensation to farmers there is no money left for "real "ecological projects. I am all for biodiversity, but I just don't think there is the space in the UK there was 400 years ago. I looked on the Wild Boar site and I saw all the Boars here are escaped from farms. I thought we had enough problems with Mink and Copyu without creating others, thats all. BTW in my region Beavers have been reintroduced for the last 20 years.

[alcedo.atthis]

"We lose the Red Kite and nearly lose several other species of native birds!"

Did we actually loose the Red Kite?



"Much work has been undertaken, with considerable success to re-introduce them. Brilliant, we all welcome that."

We reintroduced the Capercaillie, and look at the sorry state that they are now in.



"So why are so many of you against re-introducing mammals that were once prolific in these islands? It wasn't to small then and it isn't now. I am probably gonna make loads of enemies here but I think that there is a strong case for bringing back all our once indigenous species, especially as there is an increasingly larger amount of ex-farmland becoming available."



Reading the above statement, since we have had Hippo's, Lion, Giraffe, Bear etc, etc, are you still for brining them "all" back??

And how does one define "our once indigenous species" considering the eons of upheaval that this island(s) has went through over millions of years.



"My argument is, you cant pick and choose, you want some back but not others. This creates an unnatural imbalance of species."

Is your argument really well thought out. For question, see above.



"You also have to allow that humans are also part of the equation!"

So do you remove all humans from these islands, after all we are unnatural aliens to this islands. Just other migrant workers, but from a different time.



"A final thought, They are more scared of us than we are of them! After all we have been there top predator for thousands of years."

But a certain little virus in a migrating Duck or Goose, or a displaced Mosquito due to world temperature rise, may be heading our way, and with it/them, a certain disease(s) which may bring the top predator to his knees.





Regards



Malky

[alcedo.atthis]

"in what counties can the wild boar(s) be seen?"

Anywhere there is a local or general election 3:-)

Regards

Malky

[chrisgarner]

Do they taste like bacon? :h?:

[Larry Lade]

Here in the United States "feral pigs", "wild boar" and hybrids are generally not held in very high esteem (except by the people that hunt them), as they are seen as quite deterimental to the enviroment. It would seem to me that any reintroduction here would be viewed unfavorably. Below is a "clip" from the Missouri Department of Conservation.

Because they cause damage to livestock, streams and wildlife, the Conservation Department, along with governmental and private agricultural and conservation groups, seeks your help in eradicating them.
I would assume that most people in the UK are not in favor with the wild boar reintroduction, however it appears (according to the poll) that the majority of BF respondents are in favor with their reintroduction.

[CornishExile]

Do they taste like bacon? :h?:

The very best pork you'll ever taste. Boar sausages... oh boy, so good!

ce

[the bird]

The very best pork you'll ever taste. Boar sausages... oh boy, so good!

ce


i'm all for it then


:gn:

[Isurus]

I ticked yes but I'm actually in favour of not culling out the ones that are already here and letting them do the reintroduction job themselves. there is I think some experimental work being done up in scotland on their value for woodland regeneration. let 'em spread I say.

[jurek]

Here in the United States "feral pigs", "wild boar" and hybrids are generally not held in very high esteem

Because they are not native to US. I think, you have only one native pig-like animal, javelina in S USA.

[jurek]

Similar thread was on bird-forum before.

Please look it up, it contains lots of info about what wild boars really are.

Ones in Berlin seems to become less common this year (succesful hunting season?) but wild boar rooting is still normal sight in suburbs. I saw recently one at motorway edge in late afternoon.

[saluki]

I ticked yes but I'm actually in favour of not culling out the ones that are already here and letting them do the reintroduction job themselves. there is I think some experimental work being done up in scotland on their value for woodland regeneration. let 'em spread I say.

Here's some info from the newsgroups, so I can't vouch for it's validity, though the poster is usually very reliablce - just don't ask me to find the relevant DEFRA pages:

'Police Firearms Licensing Branches require that wild boar are specifically listed on an individual's firearms certificate (FAC) before they may use a rifle to shoot wild boar.

They do not consider the term "other vermin", which often appears on FACs to permit the culling of species such as foxes, to include wild boar. The most suitable type of firearm for shooting wild boar is a centre-fire rifle comparable with those permitted for deer culling under
the Deer Act 1991.

However, the minimum calibre permitted for deer is widely considered to be inadequate to ensure a clean kill for wild boar. Police guidance suggests a minimum calibre of .270 Winchester, or its metric equivalent (see Home Office; Firearms Law: Guidance to the Police, 2002) and a FAC will normally only be endorsed for shooting of wild boar if the rifle held is of .270 calibre or larger.

Wild boar will normally only be added to a FAC if the holder has authority to shoot on land within an area known to have wild boar present.'

Source: DEFRA

My own thoughts are that it probably won't be difficult to get them listed on one's License, certainly if they are causing damage to crops. They are already being shot in the pockets that have emerged in southern England, probably illegally. As far as releasing them in Scotland, has anyone thought of the implications to ground-nesting birds such as Caper and Black Grouse, as wild boar will readily eat eggs and chicks? In the long term they might prove advantagous by improving woodland, but I think they would be detremental initially.

saluki

[jurek]

As far as releasing them in Scotland, has anyone thought of the implications to ground-nesting birds such as Caper and Black Grouse, as wild boar will readily eat eggs and chicks?


In Poland wild boars and not the threat for caper or black grouse. Pigs like eggs, but are not good at finding them.

[jpoyner]

So far as mammal reintroduction programmes go, the the UK has been pathetically slow compared to it's European neighbours. This is mainly due to slumbering bureaucrats in quangos such as SNH, their strings being pulled by the landowning lobby. Just look at Beavers in Scotland....if they can't get their act together on that one what hope has anything else got.

As SNH are civil servants being paid by my taxes I think it quite reasonable for them to follow EU law and at least carry out a feasability study in to Wolf reintroduction in Scotland. Instead, they seem to have already decided that it won't happen! Thats democracy for you!

There's also the problem of public perception in the UK as we no longer have any wild "large" carnivores. There is now an ingrained fear of anything "dangerous" roaming wild......yet on a scale of risk, being stung by a bee is far more dangerous (one of the biggest causes of fatalities from a wild creature in Europe).

Seems like things may be pushing ahead anyway perhaps.........look hard enough and you may well come across Lynx in a Highland glen somewhere already !!!!!!!!!!!!!

JP

[DavidP]

So far as mammal reintroduction programmes go, the the UK has been pathetically slow compared to it's European neighbours. Despite EU law requiring member states to at least carry out detailed feasability studies.

This is mainly due to slumbering bureaucrats in quangos such as SNH, their strings being pulled by the landowning lobby. Just look at Beavers in Scotland....if they can't get their act together on that one what hope has anything else got.

There's also the problem of public perception in the UK as we no longer have any wild "large" carnivores. There is now an ingrained fear of anything "dangerous" roaming wild......yet on a scale of risk, being stung by a bee is far more dangerous (one of the biggest causes of fatalities from a wild creature in Europe).

Seems like things may be pushing ahead anyway perhaps.........look hard enough and you may well come across Lynx in a Highland glen somewhere already !!!!!!!!!!!!!

JP


Its all about public perception. In California there are about 25,000 black bears and about 5,000 mountain lions and despite the occasional mauling by bears and a small handful of deaths from mountain lions everyone seems to get on quite well despite the fact that often these species and humans live in close proximity ( my neighbours alsatian was killed by a mountain lion last year- and thats in the greater LA area fairly urban). Despite all this theres no outcry for mass culling, indeed mountain lions are protected by law although bears are still hunted in a fairly regulated way.

It would be great to have some of the original native animals re introduced in UK, but people would ahve to accept that perhaps they aren't the top animal in the environment anymore. It makes for more exciting country walks if you know that however unlikely there could be something out there lurking waiting to eat you, certainly enlivens my walks anyway.

[Hanno]

I loke Boars, both in the wild and on the table:-))) But Paul is right in pointing out that they don't mix with humans so well, not because they are dangerous, but because of the damage they can cause. In Germany, boars have even invaded Berlin, and are causing a lot of damage to gardens. And it is kind of impractical to hunt them in the middle of a large city.

[saluki]

In Poland wild boars and not the threat for caper or black grouse. Pigs like eggs, but are not good at finding them.

Hi Jurek,

Do you know why? They have an excellent sense of smell and are intelligent - two things I would imagine would help them find nests. Aren't feral pigs generally irradicated throughout the world because of the detrimental effect on ground-nesting birds (amongst other reasons) where they have been introduced?

Personally, I would worry about a population of ground-nesting birds that hadn't had to contend with wild boar for several hundred years.

saluki

[jurek]

they don't mix with humans so well

In Germany, boars have even invaded Berlin

Isn't it self-contradictory ?

In Berlin there are hundreds of wild boars in suburban forests and parks and nobody cares. You can see them easily just before dusk. I written about them some time ago. They are simply part of the forest, like foxes, roe deer, hares and everything.

[jurek]

Do you know why? They have an excellent sense of smell and are intelligent - two things I would imagine would help them find nests. Aren't feral pigs generally irradicated throughout the world because of the detrimental effect on ground-nesting birds (amongst other reasons) where they have been introduced?


European birds co-evolved with wild boars for millenia and know how to hide. Wild boar is much less efficent at finding nests than fox, badger, weasel, cat, raven, crow or whatever.

I'm not sure, but wild boars seem to prefer to dig for food (acorns, beech seeds, grubs) in grass or in dry leaves, while caper or black grouse build nests usually in thickets or under broken trees etc. Both grouse have problems in Poland in Europe, because of past hunting, forestry, fox increase etc., but I never heard of wild boar mentioned as a significant predator of nests.

[Jos Stratford]

There aren't many areas of extensive woodland left and what woodland there is, is usually surrounded by farmland.

I just don't think (if extensive forest is what they need) that the UK has enough of the right environment. If we had a Black Forest or a Bialowieza forest here, then that would be ok.


Such vast areas are not needed. Wild Boar are equally at home in small, mixed woodland belts ...there is plenty of suitable habitat across the UK I believe. Quite common out here in both extensive forests and more fragmentary areas. Got them on my land - the forest is about 10 hectares or so (but many nearby areas of similar size and not far from more extensive forests).

My happy birding haunts of earlier days (the Wye and Usk Valleys) would be right up a boar's alley so to speak.

[Stranger]

Such vast areas are not needed. Wild Boar are equally at home in small, mixed woodland belts ...there is plenty of suitable habitat across the UK I believe. Quite common out here in both extensive forests and more fragmentary areas. Got them on my land - the forest is about 10 hectares or so (but many nearby areas of similar size and not far from more extensive forests).

My happy birding haunts of earlier days (the Wye and Usk Valleys) would be right up a boar's alley so to speak.

Hi Jos
There may already be Wild Boar in the Wye and Usk Valleys.They have been reported in the Forest of Dean.
I shall be out that way in a couple of weeks so will have another look for them,I`ve searched for them twice already to no avail.
Jurek and I had an interesting discussion on reintroduction just after Easter,at the time I was unsure about the merits of bringing back Boars etc.
After reading other postings I am slowly coming round to the idea that some may actully be benificial.

[Jos Stratford]

I shall be out that way in a couple of weeks so will have another look for them,I`ve searched for them twice already to no avail.



Though common out here, it is comparatively rare that I actually see them. Easier to see the signs of them - tracks, where they've been rooting around, etc. Good luck. Great animals, I certainly don't have objections to a thought-out reintroduction.

[jurek]

If you wish to see wild boars, look before dusk on meadows, marshy meadows or fields (corn, potato, beet) bordering forest. Or maybe beech foest with lots of seeds. In daytime they usually hide in reedbeds or dense bushes.

[Jos Stratford]

In daytime they usually hide in reedbeds or dense bushes.

Funny you should say that - saw two feeding rumaging at the edge of reedbeds today :)

[AmpelisChinito]

I say they are more of a menace than they are worth, but I dont live in the UK.

[MarkA]

On the subject of UK reintroductions in general (no mention of wild boar, but who knows...) have you seen this?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/conservation/story/0,13369,1601151,00.html

M

[Dimitris]

I vote yes but agree that Britain is way too crowded for them.They also breed like rabits and can be very difficult to control without predators.So if you bring back the Boar you'll have to bring back it's predators again Britain does not have much space.

[jurek]

But they make great sausages and pate. :D

[jurek]

On the subject of UK reintroductions in general (no mention of wild boar, but who knows...) have you seen this?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/conservation/story/0,13369,1601151,00.html


I visited island of Mull in 1990's and remember herds of red deer wandering among deserted cottages. And trying to get run over by our car. ;)

Now - seriously - I think putting half a dozen of bison and Przewalski's horses wouldn't be difficult, but would change the island into a great tourist attraction. And there are many more places in Scotland like this.

[DavidP]

I vote yes but agree that Britain is way too crowded for them.They also breed like rabits and can be very difficult to control without predators.So if you bring back the Boar you'll have to bring back it's predators again Britain does not have much space.


Wild boar are already present in Sussex, Forest of Dean and maybe a few other places. I suspect they are already being controlled by landowners and if not I'm sure a very profitable hunt could be organised.

[saluki]

Just been reading a short piece about The Acclimatisation Society that ran for several years in the 1860's - if they'd had their way the UK would be overrun with ferals and exotics!

It doesn't list every species attempted but there is accounts of Bobwhite Quail, Chinese Blue Sheep, Japanese Sika, Sardinian Moufflon, Wapiti, Prairie Grouse, Wood Duck, Bahama Pintail, Brazilian Geese (?), Honduras Turkey, Grey-Winged Trumpeter, Fireback Pheasant, jungle fowl, Indian Partridge (Chukar?), Black Duck, Bronze-Winged Pigeon, Brush Turkey, Murray Cod, Wombat, Wonga Pigeon, Speckled Pigeon, Demoiselle Cranes, European Wels, Romanoff and Kalmuck Sheep (?), Wallabies and Eland! How serious some of these introductions were is unknown.

Apparently 'the enterprise was intended, in part at least, to increase the available supply of food'!

saluki

[Isurus]

Just been reading a short piece about The Acclimatisation Society that ran for several years in the 1860's - if they'd had their way the UK would be overrun with ferals and exotics!

It doesn't list every species attempted but there is accounts of Bobwhite Quail, Chinese Blue Sheep, Japanese Sika, Sardinian Moufflon, Wapiti, Prairie Grouse, Wood Duck, Bahama Pintail, Brazilian Geese (?), Honduras Turkey, Grey-Winged Trumpeter, Fireback Pheasant, jungle fowl, Indian Partridge (Chukar?), Black Duck, Bronze-Winged Pigeon, Brush Turkey, Murray Cod, Wombat, Wonga Pigeon, Speckled Pigeon, Demoiselle Cranes, European Wels, Romanoff and Kalmuck Sheep (?), Wallabies and Eland! How serious some of these introductions were is unknown.

Apparently 'the enterprise was intended, in part at least, to increase the available supply of food'!

saluki

murray cod?? thats crazy! any chance this piece is online?

the european wels did take off in certain areas: http://www.fisheriesmanagement.co.uk/catfish/catfish_introduction.htm

[saluki]

murray cod?? thats crazy! any chance this piece is online?

the european wels did take off in certain areas: http://www.fisheriesmanagement.co.uk/catfish/catfish_introduction.htm

Sorry Isurus, it's from a book - 'The Naturalised Animals of the British Isles' by Christopher Lever. It simply says 'Murray Cod or cod-perch were presented on May 21 1863 by the Victoria branch (Australia had it's own Acclimatisation Society) of the Society".

saluki

[saluki]

Sorry Isurus, it's from a book - 'The Naturalised Animals of the British Isles' by Christopher Lever. It simply says 'Murray Cod or cod-perch were presented on May 21 1863 by the Victoria branch (Australia had it's own Acclimatisation Society) of the Society".

saluki

A bit more info:

The Eland seemed to be the biggest hit! It culminated in the 'Eland Dinner', which consisted of 'the freshly killed haunch of this African antelope'; 'large Pike from the East'; 'American Partridge (Bobwhite Quail?) shot a few days before in the Transatlantic West' and 'wild goose, probably Bean Goose'!

They had a thing about Eland meat and described it as 'the finest, closest and masticable of any meat'!

A Dr. J E Gray brought a little sanity to the situation when, in 1864, he proclaimed his opinion that:

'Some of the schemes of the would-be acclimatizers are incapable of being carried out, and would never have been suggested if their promoters had been better aquainted with the habits and manners of the animals on which the experiments are proposed to be made'.

Just did a quick Google and found a book called, surprisingly: 'They Dined on Eland: Story of the Acclimatisation Societies'!

saluki

[London Birder]

yeah those aclimatisation societys were full-on ... I think they popped up in a number of countries

[BASC10]

I absolutely think they should be reintroduced. I support both the scottish wolf project and the wild boar scheme. Obviously not in urban parks and woodland!!!

Take care

Boogs


Wild boar have already been reintroduced (albeit as escapees) into the new forest and I suspect in a good many other locations too.

They don't respect "urban parks" or "woodland" - they are big (nigh on a ton) and powerfull animals that can kill a human with ease.

So why release more?

As to the proposed wolf reintroduction - I can't think of a more ill advised waste of tax payers money! (apart from the proposed reintroduction of the european beaver perhaps...more of which later!)

The idea is that the wolf will predate on the growing deer population in the highlands thus reducing numbers.

What piffle! - if you were a wolf what would you choose for lunch...a nice easy to catch, won't fight back ewe or lamb or a nasty, hard to catch, hard to kill, fighting back deer?

And before any of you know it alls field the old "they will take mostly fawns & hinds and reduce the population that way" you should realize that even if that were true (in the event that there were no sheep in Glen Coe...yeah...right!) the resultant stag heavy population would produce progressivly poorer and poorer quality off-spring which would eventually lead to the highland deer gene pool being permanently empovrished.

As it is it's fair to say the crofters will put paid to this daft plan by (understandibly) protecting their stock with the usual array of inappropriate shot guns and rimfires.

Result?

Wounded wolf looking for easy meat and not all that fussed if it's next meal is road kill, a hypothermic climber or (God forbid) a twitcher!

Next thing you know the poor old wolf will find himself public enemy No. 1 and be exterminated for a second time.

Then there is the beaver!

Great idea this one - why reintroduce the beaver?...presumably so it can dam up pristine salmon & seatrout redds, killing all the ova due to siltation thus ensuring the last of the already few Scottish salmonids are wiped out and with it the valuable tourism salmon fishing attracts.

Inspired!

[Jos Stratford]

They (Wild Boar) don't respect "urban parks" or "woodland" - they are big (nigh on a ton) and powerfull animals that can kill a human with ease.

As to the proposed wolf reintroduction - And before any of you know it alls field the old "they will take mostly fawns & hinds and reduce the population that way" you should realize that even if that were true (in the event that there were no sheep in Glen Coe...yeah...right!) the resultant stag heavy population would produce progressivly poorer and poorer quality off-spring which would eventually lead to the highland deer gene pool being permanently empovrished.

Great idea this one - why reintroduce the beaver?...presumably so it can dam up pristine salmon & seatrout redds, killing all the ova due to siltation thus ensuring the last of the already few Scottish salmonids are wiped out and with it the valuable tourism salmon fishing attracts.

Inspired!


Inspired indeed, inspired rubbish the lot of it - makes me begin to wonder if it's safe for me to go to my land tomorrow, but then I began to think...
... the Wild Boar that have been near my cabin recently don't seem to have turned into big ton hooligans yet.
...those Roe Deer that hang out in the meadow don't look so 'empovrished' (despite a healthy wolf population nearby)
...those very Wolves haven't tucked into any visiting twitchers yet
...and the crystal clear waters that surround the beaver lodge look pretty good.

Your post makes me wonder how the natural world ever got into the 21st century without becoming genetically-deficient or extinct! 3:-)

[BASC10]

Inspired indeed, inspired rubbish the lot of it - makes me begin to wonder if it's safe for me to go to my land tomorrow, but then I began to think...
... the Wild Boar that have been near my cabin recently don't seem to have turned into big ton hooligans yet.
...those Roe Deer that hang out in the meadow don't look so 'empovrished' (despite a healthy wolf population nearby)
...those very Wolves haven't tucked into any visiting twitchers yet
...and the crystal clear waters that surround the beaver lodge look pretty good.

Your post makes me wonder how the natural world ever got into the 21st century without becoming genetically-deficient or extinct! 3:-)

All very impressive Jos...but you live in lithuania lets not forget - what's your part of Lithuania got in common with England or Scotland? (Glen Coe and the surrounding highlands in particular?)

Very little I would suggest.

Two years ago a landowner in Devon shot a ton plus escapee wild boar
after it chased one of his house guests up a tree!

Wild boar injure countless people in Europe every year - just because you have been fortunate so far are these animals now safe to "pet"?

Do you have many sheep where you live (as in the highlands)?
Is the terrain as inhospitable and therfore equally limited in terms of prey species for wolves as in the highlands (not many Roe in Glen Coe or Rannoch moor - so I'm guessing you live in a comparitivly lowland area with far more viable food sources for a hungry wolf)
Roe are easy for a wolf to catch and kill - red deer much less so!

Do the locals fear or respect the wolf where you live - have they recently been reintroduced after an abcence of over 300 years?

And finally - beavers do not stir sediment up...their dams stop it escaping after floods, thus choking the aluvial gravels which many fish, salmonids especially, rely on being clean and well oxygenated to successfully hatch their eggs.

This is why in the states they regularly dynamite beaver dams.

Do you have a healthy population of salmonids in your local river - if so - what species?

How much angling pressure do they experience?

It's easy to poke fun Jos, but I don't think you know as much as you would have us believe!

[cavan wood]

They don't respect "urban parks" or "woodland" - they are big (nigh on a ton) and powerfull animals that can kill a human with ease.

As to the proposed wolf reintroduction - I can't think of a more ill advised waste of tax payers money! (apart from the proposed reintroduction of the european beaver perhaps...more of which later!)

The idea is that the wolf will predate on the growing deer population in the highlands thus reducing numbers.

What piffle! - if you were a wolf what would you choose for lunch...a nice easy to catch, won't fight back ewe or lamb or a nasty, hard to catch, hard to kill, fighting back deer?

And before any of you know it alls field the old "they will take mostly fawns & hinds and reduce the population that way" you should realize that even if that were true (in the event that there were no sheep in Glen Coe...yeah...right!) the resultant stag heavy population would produce progressivly poorer and poorer quality off-spring which would eventually lead to the highland deer gene pool being permanently empovrished.

As it is it's fair to say the crofters will put paid to this daft plan by (understandibly) protecting their stock with the usual array of inappropriate shot guns and rimfires.

Result?

Wounded wolf looking for easy meat and not all that fussed if it's next meal is road kill, a hypothermic climber or (God forbid) a twitcher!

Next thing you know the poor old wolf will find himself public enemy No. 1 and be exterminated for a second time.



Inspired!

I'm not voting because I don't live there, but to address a few points of biology...

Boars not respecting boundaries?....agreed.

One ton boars?? 500 lb would be a wopper (records are 7-800 lbs), 2000 lb? that's the size of a cow.

Wolves eating sheep? ....yep, but as long as farmers were allowed to shoot nuisance animals once the packs became established, then their main diet would still be deer, especially the newborns. This is where they have the greatest impact on population. Farmers would definately experience losses, however, and there would be hard feelings.

Wounded and going after twitchers?....Not likely. The number of wolf attacks world wide is incredibly small. Now, deer and moose attacking people?...that's another story. I was charged by a white-tail while in my kayak just last week. Thankfully, he pulled up at the creeks edge and turned his attention to the two does that had just passed by. Breathing hard and foaming at the mouth he was. I think I must have interupted something.

The deer population being genetically impoverished because wolves have removed the young and females?...Come now, that's just silly. First of all, the young deer are half male and so both sexes die equally there. Same goes for old age. Secondly, after the rut the bucks are half starved and are selected targets of wolves at that time of year. If there were more males, competition would be stiffer and condition of males would be that much worse afer the rut. Classic negative feedback loop. Also, even if there was an overall preference for females by the wolves, genetic sexual selection in the birth rates compensates. How did those species co-exist for all these last few thousands years?

Once again, I offer no opinion on what is good for a country I've never even visited, but I hate it when arguments loose site of reality.

Scott

[BASC10]

I'm not voting because I don't live there, but to address a few points of biology...

Boars not respecting boundaries?....agreed.

One ton boars?? 500 lb would be a wopper (records are 7-800 lbs), 2000 lb? that's the size of a cow.

Wolves eating sheep? ....yep, but as long as farmers were allowed to shoot nuisance animals once the packs became established, then their main diet would still be deer, especially the newborns. This is where they have the greatest impact on population. Farmers would definately experience losses, however, and there would be hard feelings.

Wounded and going after twitchers?....Not likely. The number of wolf attacks world wide is incredibly small. Now, deer and moose attacking people?...that's another story. I was charged by a white-tail while in my kayak just last week. Thankfully, he pulled up at the creeks edge and turned his attention to the two does that had just passed by. Breathing hard and foaming at the mouth he was. I think I must have interupted something.

The deer population being genetically impoverished because wolves have removed the young and females?...Come now, that's just silly. First of all, the young deer are half male and so both sexes die equally there. Same goes for old age. Secondly, after the rut the bucks are half starved and are selected targets of wolves at that time of year. If there were more males, competition would be stiffer and condition of males would be that much worse afer the rut. Classic negative feedback loop. Also, even if there was an overall preference for females by the wolves, genetic sexual selection in the birth rates compensates. How did those species co-exist for all these last few thousands years?

Once again, I offer no opinion on what is good for a country I've never even visited, but I hate it when arguments loose site of reality.

Scott

Scott

I'll bow to your greater knowledge on the subject of boar weight but a few points i'll take issue with:

In the highlands of Scotland wolves would be presented with two main sources of food if released today : Sheep & deer

The point I was trying to make is that the wolf will now naturally take the easiest option (sheep) which lets not forget were in much lower desnsities & far less widespread when the last wolf was killed in 1743.

To ensure that wolves do the job of deer control effectivly, sheep numbers would have to be drastically reduced - if not removed all together, which if you are a crofter is I imagine tantamount to removing a large percentage of your income.

Would Holyrood also sponsor compensation for Farmers so effected?

As to the red deer gene pool being empovrished by wolf predation - my illustration was entirely hypothetical since (as I said earlier) if released into the highlands as they stand now, the wolves will happily munch through the crofters sheep before even looking at the Deer.

Wounded wolves going after humans - why not?

How many of the "very few" wolf attacks documented result from a non fatal injury which prevents the wolf from pursuing it normal prey?
http://www.wolftrust.org.uk/a-wkp7-explaining-attacks.html

As romantic as the proposition seems, the reintroduction of wolves to the highlands of Scotland is totally impractical and a complete waste of taxpayers money.

Wolves and deer may well have co-existed happily 1000 years ago in places where human encroachment was minimal or non existant but this is here and now - the world is a very different place these days & the highlands of Scotland are no exception.

If the Scottish government want to control deer numbers why not form a state run (or sposored) deer control group?
Far better use of taxpayers cash and far more effective.

[Isurus]

are there different sizes of ton these days?

wolf reintroduction is a long way off and unlikely to ever get off the ground given the kerfuffle over a few beaver. lynx is the interesting possibility for me. I attended a lecture by trees for life and the wilderness foundation last week regarding the caledonian forest and it addressed reintroduction on a limited but interesting scale.

If the science is good and the majority of scots want beaver back I can't see the problem yet there seems to be one.

Also I would've thought allowing weaker and weaker stags and hinds to reproduce as there are no evolutionary pressures on them whilst knocking over the stags with nice antlers is probably not making red deer any better genetically.

[Rob Chace]

As wild boar were once an indigenous species in this country, then move over man & let them back in! It would be a different story if they were an alien species though! (think mink, grey squirrel etc.)

[Jos Stratford]

All very impressive Jos...but you live in lithuania lets not forget - what's your part of Lithuania got in common with England or Scotland?


What Lithuania does have is healthy populations of all the animals you speak of, so I think reflections from these parts of the world are entirely valid.


It's easy to poke fun Jos, but I don't think you know as much as you would have us believe!

I apologise for the sarcasm and it is not relevant to me if you either do or don't think I know what I'm talking about (I make no claim either way), but your post was factly incorrect, contained media-style scare mongering and hardly, in my humble opinion, related little to the true picture of situations regarding the interactions of these species.



Two years ago a landowner in Devon shot a ton plus escapee wild boar
after it chased one of his house guests up a tree!


Clearly some misinformation here - standard weight of a Wild Boar is in the region of 200 kg, 300 kg would be a extremely large animal! One ton plus is not a Wild Boar!!!


Wild boar injure countless people in Europe every year - just because you have been fortunate so far are these animals now safe to "pet"?


Countless people every year? Maybe, but I would be interested to see those figures. The population of Wild Boar is estimated in the region of 18-20,000 in this country and, especially in the autumn, the forest are full of people out gathering berries and mushrooms. The only case I can find of injury to humans in this country is to hunters who have injured the animals or have cornered them. Not saying occasional injuries are not caused by Wild Boars, but the incidence is extremely low, far below (for example) than the number hurt by domestic livestock. As for me being fortunate so far, not really - I would like to be able to get a little closer to get some better photographs -they are wary animals.


Do you have many sheep where you live (as in the highlands)?


No, there are not large numbers of sheep here (goats yes, cattle yes, sheep no). Undoubtedly, any reintroduction of wolf into Scotland would result in losses of sheep. IF wolf were ever to be reintroduced, it is not difficult to envisage a compensation program to offset losses (enough EU and govt money goes into other agricultural schemes, I can't see this being a massive dent).



Is the terrain as inhospitable and therfore equally limited in terms of prey species for wolves as in the highlands (not many Roe in Glen Coe or Rannoch moor - so I'm guessing you live in a comparitivly lowland area with far more viable food sources for a hungry wolf)
Roe are easy for a wolf to catch and kill - red deer much less so!


Clearly you have not been to Lithuania - it is every bit as inhospitable as the Highlands, winter especially is a time of acute food shortage out here, temps frequently down to minus 20, often much lower. Knowing relatively well the Highlands, there is certainly a higher density of deer stocks on many of the moors than there are in forests here. Whilst Roe Deer is the most frequent prey item in throughout the year, Red Deer does become an important food source in winter (as do Wild Boar and Elk). I am not aware of any impoverishment of the Red Deer populations as a result ..you can correct me if I am wrong.



Do the locals fear or respect the wolf where you live - have they recently been reintroduced after an abcence of over 300 years?


With the Institute of Ecology, I took part in a census of the general public's opinion on this very issue about 5 years ago ...but honestly can not remember the results (was not my study, but part of a working group on wolves, which I was only occasionally linked). If important for you, I suppose I could request a copy of the results.


And finally - beavers do not stir sediment up...their dams stop it escaping after floods, thus choking the aluvial gravels which many fish, salmonids especially, rely on being clean and well oxygenated to successfully hatch their eggs.


It is a matter of debate as to whether the beneficial effects of beavers outweigh the negative effects. My opinion is their benefits outweigh the damage they cause. From a general wildlife point of view they are beneficial - create waterland habitat and increase the amount of free-standing dead timber (particularly good for woodpecker populations and other relying on holes for nesting). If you are a commercial forestry owner (particularly of birch), then you will be less happy with the presence of beavers (I lose a lot of trees to beavers, but am not interested in the commerce of my woodland, so am happy to see this as it provides increased habitat diversification).

On a fisheries viewpoint, I am not the best qualified to convince you either way - but, at least, there are both opinions that beavers do and don't have negative impact on trout and salmon populations - I quote from part of a study onto the possible reintroduction into Scotland -

While concerns have been raised about the possible negative effects of beavers on fish populations, such as brown trout and Atlantic salmon, in practice these concerns are not sustained out by the evidence from other beaver reintroduction sites. During the beaver tour to Brittany referred to in section 4 above, the participants learned first-hand that the beavers there pose no problems for brown trout, and indeed are considered beneficial for trout fisheries (Jones, P. (1996) A preliminary assessment of the possible impacts of reintroduced European beavers Castor fiber on freshwater salmon fisheries in the UK. A report to the Atlantic Salmon Trust on the "Brittany Beaver Tour", 21-24 February 1996).

Although the location visited in Brittany did not contain interacting populations of beavers and Atlantic salmon, experience in Norway (where the conditions more closely resemble Scotland than do those in Brittany) shows that beaver populations are not considered a problem for salmon stocks there
(Jonsson, Prof. B (1995) Norwegian experience with beavers in salmon rivers. Personal communication).

Of course, you can quickly find other reports that suggest beavers do cause disruption to salmon areas ... depends who is doing the research, as usual.

Perhaps I could have more clearly stated some of these points yesterday, so take this opportunity to apologise if my responce was a little short.

best wishes