long-legged buzzard/common buzzard

[NiKonrad]

Hi!!

I need some help from all You birders out there, please!!
The 20. of august, I photographed an buteo buzzard, south in Norway. I first thought it had to be a common buzzard (buteo buteo), but then many people here in Norway, told me it had to be a long-legged buzzard (buteo rufinus).

I do not really know anymore, but maybe You can help me?

The bird was BIG, I think bigger than both the common, and rough-legged buzzard. Long wings and tail, the tail a little darker on the upper side than under, and with maybe 6-8 diffuse bands.
The shoulders a little lighter than the rest of the back.

Here is my websiteadress, with the three photos on top showing the one i am asking about. The next pic shows the most common buzzard here, rough-legged buzzard (buteo lagopus), and at the bottom, a photo of a long-legged buzzard (buteo rufinus) photographed in Netherland sept. 2000.

http://home.no.net/sbekkum/frya.htm

I hope You can help me.

Thanks
Svein, Norway

added the best photo of the strange one

[ralph]

That's what I'd call a Close Encounter of the Blurred Kind!

The pale tail is definitely interesting - the Long-Legged Buzzard Buteo rufinus having the pale tail with no barring, and being of pale rust colour (in the adult). The tail of the immature bird is pale grey/brown, whereas the Rough-Legged Buzzard Buteo lagopus has, at least, the stark white tail with the quite distinct black barring.

Very interesting, nonetheless. I can't decide. Any offers?

[Avib]

Hi NiKonrad,
Buzzards can sometimes cause much confusion.
Your Buzzard is in my opinion a very pale Long-Legged Buzzard (Buteo rufinus), which is a very tricky bird - lots of color variations and size range of : 52-69cm. However the Long-Legged Buzzard
is common here and it's shadow is very familiar to me the long tail and the shape of the wings - all those make me say it's a Long-Legged Buzzard.

...But to ad more confusion here is a (poor) shot of the most common color variation of Long-Legged Buzzard over here.

[NiKonrad]

Thank You for comments, Avib.

This buzzard is still a mystery for me. Many (most) of the comments to the pictures, points to a Long-legged buzzard, (buteo-rufinus), and a few to common buzzard (buteo buteo).
I really do not know what to think, but anyway i have to let the Norwegian rarity commitee deside their answer to this question.

Thanks again

[bukem]

Hi Nikonrad

I have to agree with Avib and Ralph it does look like a pale long legged. I have seen pictures of long leg this pale before, although i am far from an expert, you must let me know what the N R C think.

[Jane Turner]

It has the long-winged almost eagle-like look of a Long-legged Buzzard, as opposed to Common/Steppe

[John Cantelo]

Without wishing to pour cold water on this bird being a Long-legged Buzzard, which on a single photo I wouldn’t like to entirely rule out, I think that the probability is that the bird in the photo is a Common Buzzard. In saying this I have to admit that although I’ve seen numerous of Common Buzzards, my experience of Long-legged is restricted to seeing them a few years ago in Hungary.

It’s a lot harder to justify my view than it is to baldly state it. The first consideration is simply one of probablities. Beyond ‘southern Norway’ Svein doesn’t say where the bird was photographed. Presumably, though, it was within or near to the species’ breeding range in that country. Further, from what little source material I have access to, the August date seems unlikely. (Although, admittedly, there doesn’t seem a very coherent pattern of occurrence in NW Europe) The Collins guide to rare birds mentiones only one record (Sept 86) for Norway and although I’m sure there have been subsequent records, on sheer probability the odds must be thousands of one against. OK, I well know that on this basis you could argue against any rarity record. However, we all use ‘probabilities’ every time we go birding and it is a useful tool. So on this basis I’d argue that, unless there is conclusive proof to the contrary, the bird is more safely regarded as a Common Buzzard.

So, is there any ‘conclusive proof’? Well, the wings do look a tad long for Buteo buteo. However, factor in the vagaries age/sex/race, angle of view etc and are they too long for that species? I think not. Maybe they do have an aquiline element to them too, but I’d like to see more photos (and I log on Svein’s site). So on this basis the evidence is, at best, equivocal.

So what of the plumage details? The tail IS pale and if it is barred then the bars are very faint. Is it in keeping with Long-legged Buzzard? – certainly. Have I seen Common Buzzards (in the flesh/photos/artwork) showing a very similar pattern? - yup! The same goes for the underwing. And that body –– a dark half collar, a dark crescent on the flank, obscure dark markings on the head and all on a whitish background. It all looks remarkably similar to oddly ‘disorganised’ body plumage of the many pale Common Buzzards I’ve seen. Similar (if not identical) birds can be seen illustrated in Peter Hayman’s most recent guide. Do Long-legged Buzzards show a similarly ‘disorganised’ markings? Well, if they do then I can’t find an illustration depicting such a plumage. And that head … isn’t just a bit too ‘blunt’ and lacking L-l Buzzards subtly different shape? (Although this is a dreadful angle from which to judge).

… and finally, my gut reaction to the photo was ‘Oh a pale Common Buzzard’. Gut reactions can be deceptive, but shouldn’t be ignored. So is it a Common Buzzard? Well, I’d say on plumage/shape probably so – 80-85% certainty. Add that the near 100% probability that any buzzard photographed in southern Norway in August (late? early?) will be a Common Buzzard then I think the likelihood of it being a Long-legged is very small indeed. Impossible? Absolutely not! It’s exactly these vanishingly small probabilities that drags us birders out on days when most sensible folk would stay at home. Should my analysis be wrong then I’ll happily serve myself an extra large portion of humble* pie and eat it with, if not relish, then a suitable dollop of hubris!

John

* … and, whilst no vegetarian, I can’t stand offal! (humbles = entrails of deer, cows etc)

[Bluetail]

Well, the wings do look a tad long for Buteo buteo. However, factor in the vagaries age/sex/race, angle of view etc and are they too long for that species? I think not.
I hesitate to take issue with someone as experienced as you, John, but, as someone who sees Common Buzzards all year round, I have to say that I've never seen one as long-winged as the bird in the photo. I haven't enough experience of other buteos to venture an ID, but I can't believe it's a Common Buzzard.

Jason

[John Cantelo]

Jason, fear not, however great my “experience”, I assure you that I’ve still got feet of clay! Thanks for the implied compliment, though. However, I’m sure that your day-to-day experience of the species far outweighs whatever advantage, real or imagined, that my “experience” may give me. You may well be right on this one. I’ll confess that part of the reason that I posted was that I felt people were rushing too quickly to a judgement and wanted to put the counter argument. I call this playing the devil’s advocate …. those that know me would call it typical Cantelo sh*t stirring!

I think that there’s a difference between judging proportions in the field and making a judgement on a single photograph. If a whole series of photos of this bird consistently shows a long-winged buteo it would be a different matter, but I’m somewhat leery of making a judgement from a single photo. I’ve looked at too many photos not to be aware that it can be misleading to make subtle evaluations of proportions on a single shot. Telephoto lenses can do funny things to images. Browsing through the photos I have to hand of Common Buzzards, then it is quite striking how some look relatively short-winged and others longer winged.

John

[bukem]

Hello John

My oh my you have a great way with words and I very nearly agree with you, but......I have spent some time looking closely at this bird and many other photo and I hope these two I have selected from the gallery Here at B.F might sway you toward long legg. for me the tips of the wings the way the fingers push outward almost forward. Anyway take a look at these difinatly a long legged and common buzzard

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Bukem,

Nicely selected pair of shots to demonstrate John's points about photos - the Common Buzzard on the right looks longer-winged than the Long-legged Buzzard on the left!

Michael

[Bubbs]

[QUOTE=NiKonrad]Hi!!

I need some help from all You birders out there, please!!
The 20. of august, I photographed an buteo buzzard, south in Norway. I first thought it had to......

Out of the many thousands of Buzzards I've seen in Israel (vulpinus) I have yet to see one as long winged or as pale as the bird in question. If this bird was seen passing thru Eilat or Northern Israel, it would be called Long-legged.

Briefly: It's eagle like 'jizz' along with it's pale plumage, dark carpal patches, all point to Long-legged. On my screen the outer tail feathers look orange along with some fine barring. I have seen hundreds of L-legged with the normal orange tails; some of them showing feint barring.

I would be surprised if this was Common....but I'll stand to be corrected.

[Michael Frankis]

Does LLBuzzard ever show those dark half-collars, though? That's a typical Common Buzzard character, and I've not seen any LLB (of the ones I've seen in Bulgaria & Turkey), or pics of LLB, with that.

Michael

[Bubbs]

[QUOTE=Michael Frankis]Does LLBuzzard ever show those dark half-collars, though? That's a typical Common Buzzard character, and I've not seen any LLB (of the ones I've seen in Bulgaria & Turkey), or pics of LLB, with that.

Can't really answer the half collar question, along with the orange band on it's lower body. I can't recall seeing Llb's wth these half collars and it's a fair point. How many birds of prey though have we all seen that don't match any plumage description we have ever seen or heard of before. Perhaps thats why they promote such discussion, and thats good. As Dick Forsman wrote: Extensive plumage variation complicates identification 'vulpinus'... I would think the same holds true for 'rufinus'

John Barclay

[THH]

It's a juv Common Buzzard!

[Bluetail]

It's a juv Common Buzzard!
Not terribly helpful, THH. I could as easily say it's a Brown-headed Cowbird!

Jason

[bukem]

as for brown-headed cowbird I know what that is...

I married one

[John Cantelo]

Good to see that I'm not entirely isolated on this one. Incidentally apologies for an error in my posting - "(and I log on Svein’s site)" should have read (and I couldn't log onto Svein's site to check his other photos). I really shouldn't try to re-edit passages online! Have others had problems looking this site? John

[Michael Frankis]

Hi John,

The thread was started over a year ago (Aug 2002) - looks like Svein has closed that website ('Siden finnes ikke' means 'page not found') sometime since

Michael

[Tim Allwood]

for those not convinced by John, try the pale juv Comon Buzzard in Svensson et al (Collins Guide)

the bird above doesn't remind me of the long-leggeds I've seen and I haven't read John's full email (sorry John) but it could be gone over on a point by point basis if anyone has the time and inclination - maybe JC has done this already?

[THH]

NiKonrad wrote:

"I really do not know what to think, but anyway i have to let the Norwegian rarity commitee deside their answer to this question."

The thread was started august 2002 so perhaps the Norwegian rarity commitee has already decided their answer!
In other words : they have already rejected the Long-legged Buzzard. ;)