I wish they all could be California Gulls

[Andrew Whitehouse]

I know that for many of you on BF nothing beats the thrill and excitement of looking through flocks of large white-headed gulls. And surely one of the best places in the world to do this is on the west coast of North America where an array of species and subspecies cavort and hybridise with great abandon. So to give you all a special treat I thought I'd share with you some photographs I took last week at Rodeo Lagoon in Marin County, California. All three pictures are from the same flock of birds, so some individuals may appear more than once.

So, how many species can you see?

NB: I fully accept that I may not have the definitive answer myself. But hey that's all part of the fun! I know what I think I saw anyway.

[Andrew Whitehouse]

And there's me thinking you'd all love this quiz ;) Just to make it easier, can you name ANY of the species in the photos?

[Harry Hussey]

Hi Andrew,
Heermann's Gull, Western Gull, Herring Gull(?)
Harry

[Andrew Whitehouse]

I'll give you Heermann's (3 in the second, 1 in the third) Harry. I'd like to see a bit more debate on those larger gulls though! Not that I think your suggestions are wrong, btw.

I would have thought that the grey backed gulls in the front of the first two pictures should be fairly straightforward. A distinctive shape.

[Andrew]

Any of them Ring-billed?

I am at a disadvantage with no Gulls book on my shelf. It is on my list of "books I'd like but will never afford!". Christmas is coming up though! ;)

[Jane Turner]

Harry is right.. I hate Gulls. ;)

[Alastair Rae]

I went to a very detailed illustrated lecture on gull identification the other evening at the London Natural History Soc. Unfortunately it only covered the smaller species ...

[tom mckinney]

Don't laugh. These are probably sh*te:

I thought the chocolate ones were Sooty Shearwater! Guess they are 1w Heermann's?

1st picture

California Gull - 4 adult, 2x2w, 1x1w
Western Gull - 1 adult, 1x2w,
American Herring Gull - 1 adult (facing front on lhs) 1x1w (lhs facing right)
4 dunno cuz facing away

2nd picture

Heermann's Gull - 2 adult, 1x1w
California Gull - 2 adult, 2x2w, 1x1w
American Herring Gull - 1 adult (in middle facing right), 1x1w (back left infront of 1w Heermann)
Western Gull - 1 adult top right
1 unknown head top left

3rd picture

Heermann's Gull - 1x1w
American Herring Gull - 1x1w
California Gull - 2 adult
Western Gull - 1 adult
1 unknown facing away

[Jane Turner]

I went to a very detailed illustrated lecture on gull identification the other evening at the London Natural History Soc. Unfortunately it only covered the smaller species ...

What is unfortunate about that... sounds like a grand idea to me :)

[Andrew Whitehouse]

Hey this seems to have become incredibly popular all of a sudden - well slightly more than yesterday anyway.

Tom - I reckon you're right on the California Gulls and all the birds you call Westerns I would agree with. The controversial point is that I was fairly convinced at the time that there aren't any Herring Gulls in these pictures. Actually I saw very few gulls in California that I was sure were Herrings (although maybe I was wrong). So what do folks reckon the birds Tom is calling Herring Gulls might be if they're not Herrings?

PS: the 1st winter bird in the third picture is an interesting one. If I'm being honest, I'm not really sure what it is myself!

[tom mckinney]

Hi Andrew, only said American Herring cuz I didn't know what else you got there! Didn't want to say Caspian Gull or Vega Gull or something only to find out there has never been one before etc...

However, I'm now off to get my copy of Gulls to put forward a case for them being American Herring (to save face basically!)

Tom

[tom mckinney]

Been all the way through 'Gulls' and the only 2 things within range that I find to match the adult gull in pictures 1 (lhs facing front diagonally left) & 2 (centre facing right) are Western or American Herring.

I assumed that they were the same bird but not so sure now.

If they are the same bird then I'll now change to Western Gull, because in the 2nd pic the back looks quite dark and the bill is a whopper.

If they are different then I'll stick with American Herring in picture 1 (head & bill looks just like a Herring Gull to me) and Western for picture 2.

As for the 1st winters...

[Harry Hussey]

Hi Andrew,
I must stress that my initial guess was just that, and was based on a cursory glance at the pics (you seemed to be getting impatient for somebody to respond!). I can now see that the majority of the gulls in the pics appear to be California, Heermann's and Western, but share Tom's concern about the gull facing the camera in the left hand side of the first pic: the mantle seems paler than that of Western and the bill doesn't look that thick? Nevertheless, insufficient detail is visible for a firm identification to be made.
Harry

[Andrew Whitehouse]

Nobody's mentioned hybrids yet, which is normally a good thing but it might be helpful here (maybe even with that tricky 1st winter).

[tom mckinney]

I know what you're thinking Andrew:

Glaucous-winged x Western ?

Maybe, but I'm afraid this is where I drop out for fear of making a huge tvatt out of myself!

[Andrew Whitehouse]

That's what I'm thinking Tom. I saw a lot of birds that looked quite like Western Gulls but were paler grey than normal. I wasn't always sure whether this was variation between northern and southern birds or hybrids with Glaucous-winged. I suppose I was probably seeing both.

Whenever I saw what I thought was a Herring Gull they always looked paler grey than these birds, with more or different head streaking (similar to argenteus). They also looked to have longer and slightly slimmer bills without the really thick or bulbous tips of Western/Glaucous-winged.

It's noticeable that the birds in question in the photo don't show any obvious head streaking which, in November, would indicate quite a strong Western influence (I assume) and they might perhaps be at the very pale end of pure Western. Some others showed thick barring on the back of the head and neck like Glaucous-winged but had black wing tips.

I assumed (but I'm not really sure) that the 1st winter in picture 3 is a hybrid. A pure American Herring should be much darker.

Has anyone noticed how none of the Americans have posted on this? Perhaps they've learnt to avoid large gulls ;)

[DavidP]

Seems like you might have a few ring billed in there as well

[Andrew Whitehouse]

Hi David,

I'm fairly sure there weren't any Ring-billed in this flock (although I saw large numbers elsewhere in CA). Are there any birds that you had in mind as RBs?

[tom mckinney]

Andrew,

Have you got the new Gulls book?

Pictures of hybrid Glaucous-winged (with both Western and American Herring) takes up more picture space than pure Glaucous-winged!

[Harry Hussey]

Hi Tom,
I have heard a lot of negative publicity about the Gulls guide, even the reprinted version. Is it worth purchasing, or would one be better served by getting a few relevant papers and using the net for everything else?
Harry

[Andrew Whitehouse]

I've not got the new gulls book, but perhaps should do if it's any good. I suspect that there may be inadequacies with it but that any major book on gulls is always going to struggle to be at the 'cutting edge' because gull ID seems to move on very rapidly. The best stuff will probably always be on the net or in the heads of the real experts. For the rest of us a reasonably accurate book is always likely to be helpful. I still find Peter Grant's 'Gulls' useful even though it's over 20 years old.

[DavidP]

Hi David,

I'm fairly sure there weren't any Ring-billed in this flock (although I saw large numbers elsewhere in CA). Are there any birds that you had in mind as RBs?


I was thinking of the one in the first picture with its bill open. May be wrong of course.

Glad to see you had a great time in California, lots of interesting birds. I came from St Andrews before I lived here so I'm familiar with your home turf. Lovely place

[Andrew Whitehouse]

I reckon that's another California Gull - it looks very long billed and is rather darker on the wings than a Ring-billed. RBs always looked quite noticeably paler than any California Gulls. It does look a bit smaller than the other CGs, but maybe that's within the possible range of variation.

I lived in St Andrews for six or seven years until about three months ago when I moved to Aberdeen - small world isn't it!

[tom mckinney]

Harry/Andrew,

I know someone that bought the Gulls book and has spent hours ever since re-labelling the pictures! For me it is the very best thing available. Don't ask me why, but there is just something overwhelmingly authoritative about it.

The problem with websites (some solely devoted to Gulls) is that it is easy to set up your own website, fill it with close-up pictures of spread wings, spread tails, close ups of eyes etc... and of course you believe that someone who has gone to such lengths to do this must surely know what they are doing. But how do you know for sure?

I still think that professionally published material (mags & books) is currently far superior to the internet. Not just anyone can get a book published (I hope!)

Tom

[Grousemore]

The problem with websites (some solely devoted to Gulls) is that it is easy to set up your own website, fill it with close-up pictures of spread wings, spread tails, close ups of eyes etc... and of course you believe that someone who has gone to such lengths to do this must surely know what they are doing. But how do you know for sure?

I still think that professionally published material (mags & books) is currently far superior to the internet. Not just anyone can get a book published (I hope!)

Tom

I agree; I'm often worried about ID Threads where someone posts pictures of species (..." here's another Heermann's for comparison" etc )obtained from the Internet, and relies on the fact that the original photographer got the ID correct in the first place.
Published material goes through a far more rigorous verification process.

[lou salomon]

[QUOTE
I know someone that bought the Gulls book and has spent hours ever since re-labelling the pictures! For me it is the very best thing available. Don't ask me why, but there is just something overwhelmingly authoritative about it.
[/QUOTE]
I was a beginner in large gulls when I bought the book, and I have learned a lot of it even knowing about its bad publicity. For me it is much easier to go over those pages, compare to websites and then make my own experience (which I think is essential) than spend hours on websites etc. It gives you plenty of information that you don't find on the sites. It's compact, it's a book. I would buy it (corrected version).
Lou

[Bubbs]

And there's me thinking you'd all love this quiz ;) Just to make it easier, can you name ANY of the species in the photos?

I wish they all could be California Gulls...what's the chance of them being Beach Boys...very clever Andy.

Showing my age now!...47!

John.