Internet or shops?

[PYRTLE]

[/B]

I'm sure that this has already been discussed at length but do most birders (experienced or beginners) now use the internet and mail order for buying their bins/telescopes or is it the seemingly increasing practice to go to a shop or retailer to find out if they have them, then try them, compare with the other usual suspects and when chosen which one is best trawl the telephone numbers and websites for the best deal? I'm sure we all read the good advice on how to choose some bins; and then visit the shops to get our hands on a pair of Zeiss "FL" 8 X 32 - say "Very nice, I'll think about it," out comes the credit card at home in front of the P.C. or phone and happily talk to someone who just wants your security code (and doesn't know a porro from a roof: or thinks chromatic abberration can be cleared by a course of anti-biotics) just to save a few pounds!

In essence - warehouses with untrained/unknowledgeable staff or shops with staff who know a bit ( also occassionally able to id birds)? Are they worth it!

[salty]

hello, welcome to bird forum!

my advice if you are thinking about buying on the net, would be to do some homework about the company you are after goods from. i recently bought a night vision scope from a company in scotland and have never bought anything over the phone/PC before, so i done loads of checks for weeks beforehand.

i didnt want to spend my £2,000 on something that didnt exsist! - so it pays to ring the shop a few times to see if they know there stuff and are genuine before buying. as a result im over the moon with my purchase, and couldnt be happier.

[Phil Carter]

Don't know about "expensive"equipment but when I bought my Swift Audobons many years ago there was a marked difference between different pairs of the same model.So my advice is, try 'em before you buy 'em!
Phil

[level seven]

i recently bought a night vision scope from a company in scotland and have never bought anything over the phone/PC before, so i done loads of checks for weeks beforehand.

i didnt want to spend my £2,000 on something that didnt exsist! - so it pays to ring the shop a few times to see if they know there stuff and are genuine before buying. as a result im over the moon with my purchase, and couldnt be happier.
What do those Red Kites look like in the dark Salty ;)

I did buy my scope mail-order via the internet but went to my local shop for convenience after losing the lens cap. When after several months the order hadn't arrived, they kindly took one off a display model to sell me.

They didn't ask if I'd bought the scope from them and I did feel rather guilty. Having been in the shop though I realised their prices, if not the absolute cheapest, are still pretty competitive and they'll be getting my business next time I can afford some new equipment.

[simon]

You pay your money and take your choice,but buying the cheapest does not always mean sacrificing the service of knowledgable staff as i have found lately when enquiring about camera lenses at a "Warehouse" internet/mail order outlet who gave better and more truthful advice than my local high street retailer.

[Leif]

[/B]

I'm sure that this has already been discussed at length but do most birders (experienced or beginners) now use the internet and mail order for buying their bins/telescopes or is it the seemingly increasing practice to go to a shop or retailer to find out if they have them, then try them, compare with the other usual suspects and when chosen which one is best trawl the telephone numbers and websites for the best deal? I'm sure we all read the good advice on how to choose some bins; and then visit the shops to get our hands on a pair of Zeiss "FL" 8 X 32 - say "Very nice, I'll think about it," out comes the credit card at home in front of the P.C. or phone and happily talk to someone who just wants your security code (and doesn't know a porro from a roof: or thinks chromatic abberration can be cleared by a course of anti-biotics) just to save a few pounds!

In essence - warehouses with untrained/unknowledgeable staff or shops with staff who know a bit ( also occassionally able to id birds)? Are they worth it!

I usually buy birding optics from a shop so I can handle the kit. Visiting a shop to try, and then buying online is not honest in my opinion. Also, if something is wrong, it's easier to go back to a local shop (for local people?) than send something through the mail.

I do sometimes try an instrument out of curiosity knowing there is little chance of me buying. It saves the poor shop staff from getting bored. (Warning: wind up intended!)

When it comes to shops like Dixons, I have no compunction about examining something and then buying online as the prices are outrageous and I want to drive them out of business.

Leif

[jurek]

I considered buying through the internet, but found far better thing - local birder advised me a shop where Zeiss was about as cheap as in the internet (outside ebay, of course).

[Andrew Whitehouse]

I've mostly bought from the Internet in recent times. In many respects I'd prefer to buy from a shop because it obviously makes sense to try optics out before buying. But, as far as I'm aware, this would involve travelling several hundred miles from where I live. The nearest specialist shop to me is in Edinburgh, which is quite a way off, and they don't actually have that good a selection. I've also found that, on occasions, the staff in specialist shops aren't as knowledgeable as they could be. In fact sometimes the best advice is also available online - here on Bird Forum. I suspect that to compete with the Internet and mail order, shops need to offer a very good range of products that are competitively priced, have well informed staff and good viewing facilities. Some already have these but not all. It would be nice if some of them could establish branches in Scotland too.

[stevo]

Hi Pyrtle

My advice is when you`re out birding ask to look through other birders bins & find out if you like them & find out what the respective owner thinks of them.This is what I did before buying my bins I then went to a local shop traded in my old ones(for a fair price)& got my new ones I did the same with my scope.

Cheers Steve.

[mcdowella]

I would buy from a shop if there is one reasonably local to you - then you won't have to worry about your bins getting damaged in the post, and if you get a duff pair it will be easier to take them back.

[billy]

Leif, in one sentence you say its not honest to try stuff from a shop and then buy online, but its ok when its certain shops? Morals go out the window when it comes to money?. If high street shops can't or wont compete with online prices then they deserve to lose the custom

[ranburr]

I typically look at my binos locally and give the local dealer a chance to match the price that I can get online. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. I don't have a problem purchasing online, but then again I used to buy stuff out of the Sears catalouge. Online sales are really nothing more than an evolution of the old catalogue sale and no one had a problem with those guys.

ranburr

[MikeB.]

Agree exactly with Ranburr; I tell him what WarehouseExpress or another can do it at, and give him the biz if he he can come close enough.

Sometimes it's really useful being on the good side of your local dealer when something needs fixing, and especially for trading in or part-exing your old kit...

Mike

[Leif]

Leif, in one sentence you say its not honest to try stuff from a shop and then buy online, but its ok when its certain shops? Morals go out the window when it comes to money?. If high street shops can't or wont compete with online prices then they deserve to lose the custom

Hi Billy. Small shops are often run by individuals with specialist knowledge and they know their trade. They cannot compete because they sell in lower volumes, they pay staff who spend time giving service rather than taking a phone order, and they have viewing facilities that cost money. You get what you pay for and they cannot compete directly on price. That is why I think it is dishonest to try local and buy online. An online place probably has a big warehouse somewhere where land is cheap, and wages are low. (Having said that, my experience of Warehouse Express is of first rate service.)

However, in my experience the specialist dealers are often very competitive. The bloke at Kay Optical near where I live knows full well the current prices, and will give you a good deal. The same is true of Ace Optics, South West Optics etc. I bought a scope at RSPB and the price was excellent (£10 more than online). The staff were ignorant of optics but incredibly helpful in letting me spend half an hour comparing scopes without any sales patter. I suspect they were volunteers helping out for the day.

Shops like Dixons and Currys are big chains. They are expensive, the staff are poorly trained, and they make a fortune from expensive insurance most people do not need (40% of the profit is from insurance). It would not bother me if they disappeared. However, I do not waste the time of their staff, in the knowledge that I will buy online as that is IMO immoral.

Leif

[graeme782]

I have bought both via the internet and the High Street. Strangely i've found that a specialist shop will actually do a better deal than on line. When i bought my scope i found that LCE were the cheapest (although i did, rather amusingly, play two of their branches off against each other in a sort of price war). I must agree with Leif as, since then, i've discovered Kay Optical, and purchased various items from him at extremely good prices. He knows what he's talking about and if you've got something to trade in you'll get the best price.

Cheers, Graeme.

[PYRTLE]

Leif, in one sentence you say its not honest to try stuff from a shop and then buy online, but its ok when its certain shops? Morals go out the window when it comes to money?. If high street shops can't or wont compete with online prices then they deserve to lose the custom


Billy, I think one of the morals maybe is that do you as a birder and customer feel that the small independent specialist is worth paying a few quid more for demonstrating and providing viewing facilities and touchy/feely of the goods. I personally don't think its fair or honest to spend a couple of hours comparing and "pumping info" from a specialist shop and then go and buy from a warehouse just to save £20. I'm sure that to trade as a dealer/specialist you need to provide and demonstrate the models.

Also, seperate issue, would you buy from such a company if you knew that their previous business was unethical towards most birders interests? For example, if an optics owner/trader used to deal in guns/air rifles, hunting knives and camouflage gear would you be happy to purchase a pair of bins from him/her and save a few pounds - I know you'll be truthful as a birder.

All the best and thanks for your reply

[Atomic Chicken]

Pyrtle,

Actually... quite the opposite.

I have only purchased optics on the internet once... when it became apparent to me that I would never find the pair of optics I was after locally. I personally am inclined to spend however much extra (within reason) to be able to physically examine the optics before buying... but that's just me. Not much of a risk taker here, I'm afraid. ;)

Best wishes,
Bawko

[matt green]

just a short word of caution folks,if you must buy on the internet make sure you get all the paperwork supplied stamped by the dealer.this is vitaly important if you ever need any servicing or repairs.best of luck,matt

[Grousemore]

. Small shops are often run by individuals with specialist knowledge and they know their trade. They cannot compete because they sell in lower volumes, they pay staff who spend time giving service rather than taking a phone order, and they have viewing facilities that cost money. You get what you pay for and they cannot compete directly on price. That is why I think it is dishonest to try local and buy online. An online place probably has a big warehouse somewhere where land is cheap, and wages are low.
Leif

I agree entirely; if everyone bought online, eventually there would be nowhere left to try optics before buying.

[billy]

pytre, i hear what your saying and point taken, but if the difference in price runs into 3 figures!!!

[Ben O]

Also, seperate issue, would you buy from such a company if you knew that their previous business was unethical towards most birders interests? For example, if an optics owner/trader used to deal in guns/air rifles, hunting knives and camouflage gear would you be happy to purchase a pair of bins from him/her and save a few pounds - I know you'll be truthful as a birder.

All the best and thanks for your reply

I wonder who you are referring to here ;)

Considering that the manufacturers of the binos and scopes make large profits from the hunting community with their telescopic sights, it doesn't make that much difference whether you buy from an establishment who cater for the hunting market as well.

Ben

[Humboldt Jim]

pytre, i hear what your saying and point taken, but if the difference in price runs into 3 figures!!!

I live in an isolated area and try to shop locally as much as possible, especially at businesses that support our local Audubon chapter. Problem is, due to a very small market, there is not a good selection locally and one would need to drive 4 to 6 hours to the San Francisco area just to shop.
So, I shop and buy local when I can but pay not more than 5-10% more if the item is available.

[ranburr]

Also, seperate issue, would you buy from such a company if you knew that their previous business was unethical towards most birders interests? For example, if an optics owner/trader used to deal in guns/air rifles, hunting knives and camouflage gear would you be happy to purchase a pair of bins from him/her and save a few pounds - I know you'll be truthful as a birder.

You had better believe I would, and do. Most all of my birding equipment is really huntinmg equipment performing the secondary task of birding. I am a responsible hunter who contributes financially to both hunting and birding organizations. Where is the conflict? In the U.S. and many other countries, hunters have done more and spent more to preserve wildlife habitat than any other group. People like yourself have to realize that birders and hunters share many of the same interest and values. If you truly want to see habitat remain in it's natural form I suggest that become a contributing member to organizations like Ducks Unlimited and the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation. Incidentally, Ducks unlimited is essentially comprised of bird hunters who have spent more on wetland and wildlife preservation than most countries. Before you start casting stones, you should should stop and think for a moment. The truth is that hunters and birders are actually very good allies in the fight to preserve habitat and wildlife.

ranburr

[Swissboy]

Where is the conflict? In the U.S. and many other countries, hunters have done more and spent more to preserve wildlife habitat than any other group.
ranburr

What you say is certainly true for North America (that vast range of National Wildlife Refuges is a case in point), but in many other parts of the world the situation is by no means like that. There are many areas where hunters have effectively emptied the countryside or like on the island of Malta where they do considerable damage to breeding bird populations further north.

[Andy Bright]

We're getting off the main topic here, the pros and cons of hunting are not up for discussion in the bino forums.
Thank you.

[elkcub]

I usually buy birding optics from a shop so I can handle the kit. Visiting a shop to try, and then buying online is not honest in my opinion. Also, if something is wrong, it's easier to go back to a local shop (for local people?) than send something through the mail.

I do sometimes try an instrument out of curiosity knowing there is little chance of me buying. It saves the poor shop staff from getting bored. (Warning: wind up intended!)

When it comes to shops like Dixons, I have no compunction about examining something and then buying online as the prices are outrageous and I want to drive them out of business.

Leif

Leif,

I strongly agree with this sentiment. I'd rather pay a bit more to maintain rapport with a fair and honest dealer trying to make a living. Return customers also get better deals — as they rightfully should.

Some reputable online outfits provide good service (e.g., Eagle Optics, Cabela's, and others) — but unfortunately there are scalpers too. Several of these sell damaged samples in original boxes and call them "factory fresh." When returned they cycle on to someone else. Then there are those who shade the meaning of the warranty, or cover up that it's really a 90 day manufacturer's warranty for refurbished goods.

All in all, if the on-line price sounds too hard to resist — beware!

Elkcub

[Andrew Rowlands]

We're getting off the main topic here, the pros and cons of hunting are not up for discussion in the bino forums.
Thank you.

Just to reiterate The comment made by Andy Bright - "We're getting off the main topic here, the pros and cons of hunting are not up for discussion in the bino forums.".

I'm tempted to 'trim' the last Posting ...

Andy.

[barry robson]

Dont bother trying in the shop - most shops are not suitably sited to get the best out of kit anyway. If I see another birder with some kit I'm interested in I ask to try it and get their opinion. Telescopes were a bit of a problem so I trolled over to an osprey viewing site where they had a selection of scopes set up and tried those.Then I bought the (Zeiss) scope from warehouse Express when they ran
an offer of a FREE zoom lens…

Cheers

B

[salty]

Barry - sound advice.

i tested out the scopes at bassenwhaite myself. i think they had 5 or 6 at the view point to try out. scopes are tricky to test in store (for obvious reasons) unlike bino's that can simply be poked out of the nearest window!

my advice would be to pick a budget, check reviews, then try before you buy. whatever way you choose to buy your products is up to you!

[lvn600]

[/B]

I'm sure that this has already been discussed at length but do most birders (experienced or beginners) now use the internet and mail order for buying their bins/telescopes or is it the seemingly increasing practice to go to a shop or retailer to find out if they have them, then try them, compare with the other usual suspects and when chosen which one is best trawl the telephone numbers and websites for the best deal? I'm sure we all read the good advice on how to choose some bins; and then visit the shops to get our hands on a pair of Zeiss "FL" 8 X 32 - say "Very nice, I'll think about it," out comes the credit card at home in front of the P.C. or phone and happily talk to someone who just wants your security code (and doesn't know a porro from a roof: or thinks chromatic abberration can be cleared by a course of anti-biotics) just to save a few pounds!

In essence - warehouses with untrained/unknowledgeable staff or shops with staff who know a bit ( also occassionally able to id birds)? Are they worth it!
I recently bought a pair of swift ultra-lite 8x42's after trying out various bin's in a shop. I told the shop owner that i would buy a pair on the spot if he did an internet price comparison. I paid about $40 more than the internet price. If i hadn't checked it would have been 150 dollars more.

[romancitizen]

I would buy from a shop if there is one reasonably local to you - then you won't have to worry about your bins getting damaged in the post, and if you get a duff pair it will be easier to take them back.
Absolutely agree: I would also recommend finding the cheapest price on the net and asking your local shop to match it.

I am lucky in that Ace Optics is 5 mins walk from me, and their prices are very competetive, but in a like-for-like deal I would have used them anyway as there is nothing like being able to go into the shop and deal with someone personally when things go wrong (not that they have for me).

Most retailers are now aware of what the net offers and monitor prices to ensure they remain competetive - they know the alternative. For example, I bought a pair of Nikon Sporters for my wife from Warehouse Express for £99. Shortly after, Ace introduced exactly the same offer.