Why do they cost so much?

[lvn600]

Why do top binoculars like swarovski cost so much? Is it because they cost that much more to make or is it because they know that people will pay for the best? If it is the latter then why can't other companies match their quality and performance at a lesser price or have they already? :C

[Tero]

Well, they are not made in China. And the market is a small number of bird nuts. NASCAR fans buy little 10x25 Nikons. ;)

[Grousemore]

Why do top binoculars like swarovski cost so much? Is it because they cost that much more to make or is it because they know that people will pay for the best? If it is the latter then why can't other companies match their quality and performance at a lesser price or have they already? :C

This question has been discussed recently, the link below may help;

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=30617&highlight=swarovski

[Pileatus]

Why do top binoculars like swarovski cost so much? Is it because they cost that much more to make or is it because they know that people will pay for the best? If it is the latter then why can't other companies match their quality and performance at a lesser price or have they already? :C


If you compare 20+ pair of bins of varying quality in one afternoon, the differences soon become crystal clear. The mid priced bin you thought was fantastic often loses its luster when confronted with high priced competition.

I have no doubt that when a $300 bin starts delivering like a $1500 bin, we'll all hear about it. BF'ers will guarantee we do!

John

[deboo]

Why do they cost so much?
Good question...
I recently went to an optics shop and was interested in a pair
of secondhand EL's with a ticket price of £700.
I noticed that the retailer had a pair of secondhand BA's like mine
for £495. I asked what he would take if my Leica's were traded in
for the Swarovski's. He said "your bins + £450"...
Well that seemed like nigh on 100% profit on his part!
So going by that math...he bought the 2nd hand EL's for £350
and going to the nth degree, i suppose,
the new bins he buys in are 1/2 retail price too.
Who is going to tell us;
How much the manufacturers charge for their equipment??
and
How much profit do the retailers make??

As you can imagine, i didn't buy the EL's and shall not be going
back to that retailer again...I know we all like a bargain and folk
need to make money too, i just felt i was gonna get ripped off.
Some other chap was in there too and he walked when told the
'retail' price of the new FL's he was looking through....

Dave (still happy with my BA's) :)

[deboo]

Why do they cost so much?

Dave *scratching head thingy*

[Andy Bright]

Why do top binoculars like swarovski cost so much? Is it because they cost that much more to make or is it because they know that people will pay for the best? If it is the latter then why can't other companies match their quality and performance at a lesser price or have they already? :CI'm not sure this only applies to binos/scopes, it is the same story with almost every consumer item that you have to pay top $$ for the cutting edge....just that it's easier to perceive differences between some items than others, it's not easy for many to spot the difference between upper mid-range and high-end but it is there, if you can't see it, don't part with your money.

Top glass (camera lenses a good example) has always cost a fortune.

The companies that pioneer optical design (or any other item) do have to pay for the r&d into pushing the boundaries, so this has to the come back via the consumer. And whatever anyone says, mechanical integrity and quality control are almost always superior as you pay more.

Like I say, if you can't see the difference, don't pay... but try not to begrudge those that do.

Andy.

[Leif]

Why do they cost so much?
Good question...
I recently went to an optics shop and was interested in a pair
of secondhand EL's with a ticket price of £700.
I noticed that the retailer had a pair of secondhand BA's like mine
for £495. I asked what he would take if my Leica's were traded in
for the Swarovski's. He said "your bins + £450"...
Well that seemed like nigh on 100% profit on his part!
So going by that math...he bought the 2nd hand EL's for £350
and going to the nth degree, i suppose,
the new bins he buys in are 1/2 retail price too.
Who is going to tell us;
How much the manufacturers charge for their equipment??
and
How much profit do the retailers make??

As you can imagine, i didn't buy the EL's and shall not be going
back to that retailer again...I know we all like a bargain and folk
need to make money too, i just felt i was gonna get ripped off.
Some other chap was in there too and he walked when told the
'retail' price of the new FL's he was looking through....

Dave (still happy with my BA's) :)

Some dealers such as Kay Optical and South West Optics do fair part exchange deals, but some years back London Camera Exchange in Reading offered me an outrageous deal on a used item (half the value offered by SW Optics).

Anyway, isn't BF the best place to sell kit?

Although some dealers might make 100% profit on second hand kit, I suspect that the profit on new items from Leica, Zeiss etc is much much less. £150 on a £800 item would be my guess (and it is just that).

As Andy B. says, quality glass costs money. If it could be done more cheaply and still remain in business, then someone would do it. That's the nature of the free market.

Leif

[Touty]

<Top posting 'cos I'm cross> WHAT'S THE MARK-UP ANDY?

I'm not sure this only applies to binos/scopes, it is the same story with almost every consumer item that you have to pay top $$ for the cutting edge....just that it's easier to perceive differences between some items than others, it's not easy for many to spot the difference between upper mid-range and high-end but it is there, if you can't see it, don't part with your money.

Top glass (camera lenses a good example) has always cost a fortune.

The companies that pioneer optical design (or any other item) do have to pay for the r&d into pushing the boundaries, so this has to the come back via the consumer. And whatever anyone says, mechanical integrity and quality control are almost always superior as you pay more.

Like I say, if you can't see the difference, don't pay... but try not to begrudge those that do.

Andy.

[Andy Bright]

<Top posting 'cos I'm cross> WHAT'S THE MARK-UP ANDY?Dealer mark-up? or do you mean manufacturer profit? In either case it's not as much as you'd imagine against similar high value products... and a 100x less than the manufacturer profit per unit of swarovski crystal figurines ;)

[Touty]

Dealer mark-up? or do you mean manufacturer profit? In either case it's not as much as you'd imagine against similar high value products... and a 100x less than the manufacturer profit per unit of swarovski crystal figurines ;)

dealer mark-up.... oh and guess what we got for wedding presents ;)

[Robert Ellis]

Dealer cost of high end bins is within a few percentage points of MSRP. A bin that MSRPs for 1200 and you can buy for 1100 probably cost the dealer at least 1000, Sometimes I have known dealers to sell high end stuff very close to their cost, or even below, just to have the best price.

[Highway Man]

I recently traded in a pair of zeiss 10X40 dialyt's against a pair of 10X42 Ultravids. The Zeiss were 15 years old cost £500 new and I got £200 for them. I was well choughed with that, £300 for 15 years use 8 of which were on a daily basis £20 a year to own a top pair of bins - cheap as chips ;)

Mark

[Rich N]

The Swarovski ELs give a beautiful picture window view. They are also very rugged. A fine roof prism binocular has lots of little parts that must work well in a wide range of conditions, over one hopes a number of years. It isn't just taking a few nice lenses and sticking them in a couple of cardboard tubes. It takes a lot design time, tool up for production and marketing to bring these binoculars to a store near you. The volume is low compared to many other products. The end result is a binocular that is a real pleasure to use. You can relax and just enjoy the view.

Rich

[lvn600]

The Swarovski ELs give a beautiful picture window view. They are also very rugged. A fine roof prism binocular has lots of little parts that must work well in a wide range of conditions, over one hopes a number of years. It isn't just taking a few nice lenses and sticking them in a couple of cardboard tubes. It takes a lot design time, tool up for production and marketing to bring these binoculars to a store near you. The volume is low compared to many other products. The end result is a binocular that is a real pleasure to use. You can relax and just enjoy the view.

Rich If a competitive binocular came out that was as good as Swarovski at let's say half the price do you think that birders as a whole would know it or do you think that the majority would refuse to believe that binoculars as good as Swarovski could be sold at half the price? I'm not making a statement but asking your honest opinion.

[salty]

If a competitive binocular came out that was as good as Swarovski at let's say half the price do you think that birders as a whole would know it or do you think that the majority would refuse to believe that binoculars as good as Swarovski could be sold at half the price? I'm not making a statement but asking your honest opinion.

if a bino did come out that performed that well, it would no doubt fly off the shelves. cheap bins whatever the quality still probaly outsell top-end bins 100-1 i bet, probaly more.

[Rich N]

If a competitive binocular came out that was as good as Swarovski at let's say half the price do you think that birders as a whole would know it or do you think that the majority would refuse to believe that binoculars as good as Swarovski could be sold at half the price? I'm not making a statement but asking your honest opinion.


It would relatively to do a side by side comparison of the views through the two binoculars. It would be easy to compare the feel of focuser, the balance, etc.

Some people may wonder if the less expensive binocular is really as well made as far as the moving parts continuing to move well for the next 5 or 10 years and will it hold up to bumps, hot and cold, dust, etc. These are things that aren't easy for a user to compare.

Rich

[salty]

quality does come at a price - a big one sadly!

this little lot set me back £3,000 but im very happy with my top-end bins. after going through 6 pairs or so of cheaper optics over the past 10yr, im hoping these will stand the test of time and offer faultless high quality performance for years to come. ;)

[Wehr]

Why do top binoculars like swarovski cost so much? Is it because they cost that much more to make or is it because they know that people will pay for the best? If it is the latter then why can't other companies match their quality and performance at a lesser price or have they already? :C

These bins are hightec luxery products and high precision instruments in respect of optics and mechanics. They are handmade and handselected during the assembly process.

Who offers those bins?

Worldwide only:

Leica (almost the entire program)
Nikon (3% of the program: SE, HG, HGL, (LX, LXL))
Swarovki (50% of their program)
Zeiss (50% of their program)

That's it.

The economical numbers only for these models I am talking about are:

for Leica Camera: deep red
for Zeiss: red
for Swarovski: red
for Nikon: not ascertainable from outside

The companies need those top products for their image and their reputation in the market and they compensate the losses with cheaper bins (easy profits) or with profits within their other devisions.

For Leica compensation doesn't work at all in this moment.
For Zeiss and Swarovski it works very well and for Nikon it works well even within their bins devision.

Nikon has developed a special strategy. 97% of their binoculars are Chinese, Japanese and Korean rubbish with the "NIKON" on it (this is only only only from the point of view of an optical and mechanical enthusiast, please stay cool - my apology in advance).
The bins have nothing to do with what we call "NIKON Quality", but they are making lots of money with it, because most of the customers are satisfied with the offered quality.

The other three of the big four refuse to follow this strategy until today.

Profit? Dealers make money with those bins. That's it.

Summary: Top bins are still much to cheap.

Walter

[Wehr]

quality does come at a price - a big one sadly!

this little lot set me back £3,000 but im very happy with my top-end bins. after going through 6 pairs or so of cheaper optics over the past 10yr, im hoping these will stand the test of time and offer faultless high quality performance for years to come. ;)

Richie you are damn right.

Walter

[lvn600]

I follow what you are saying but how do you know you are getting a binocular that is specially made versus one of the mass produced ones? If I was to spend a lot of money I would want to make sure I didn't just buy a name with a big price tag.

[rezMole]

Dealer cost of high end bins is within a few percentage points of MSRP. A bin that MSRPs for 1200 and you can buy for 1100 probably cost the dealer at least 1000, Sometimes I have known dealers to sell high end stuff very close to their cost, or even below, just to have the best price.

And don't forget, the dealer has to collect VAT for what he sells too. So, if he buys a pair of bins from you for £250, he has to sell for about £300 just to break even!

[Bill Atwood]

I follow what you are saying but how do you know you are getting a binocular that is specially made versus one of the mass produced ones? If I was to spend a lot of money I would want to make sure I didn't just buy a name with a big price tag.

Generally speaking, with optics you get what you pay for. At $200 or more you pretty much leave the junk behind, with possibly a few exceptions. Over $1,200 the differences get pretty small, alot of it has to do with subjective perceptions of customer service, ergonomics, CA, brightness, FOV and durability. I would consider any bin over $1,000 from Leica, Swaro, Zeiss, or Nikon to be a premium bin.

Sometimes you can find older models from Zeiss (Classics), Nikon (HGs) and Leica (Trinovids) for under $1,000 (although you need to consider the seller), I would also consider these as premium bins.

I wouldn't recommend the purchase of a bin costing over $1,000 from any manufacturer other than the 4 listed above.

[Bill Atwood]

Summary: Top bins are still much to cheap.

Walter



Uhhh..why is that?

[lvn600]

sounds simple enough-thanks

[elkcub]

Uhhh..why is that?

I think he maintains that top end binocs are being sold at a loss so that big profits can be made on low-end products made in China, etc., which share the same brand names. Swaro, of course, doesn't market any low-end binocs, so to me the argument is specious. My guess is that SLCs (for example) cost less than ELs primarily because the tooling has remained the same for 10+ yrs., and production has become very efficient. Probably the same can be said of the Trinovid and ClassiC lines, which are actually lower in cost than inflation would justify. In that respect they are good buys, at least in the US, so long as quality control is maintained.

[Bill Atwood]

Yeah I really can't agree with that argument at all. Designing, manufacturing marketing and distributing top quality bins just to maintain an image?

[Atomic Chicken]

Yeah I really can't agree with that argument at all. Designing, manufacturing marketing and distributing top quality bins just to maintain an image?

Why not? Other examples from different industries: Ferrari, Lambourgini, Rolex, Russian Caviar, Jaguar, Crystall Champaign, Etc.

Remember: It's not what it's really worth, but what the buyer THINKS it's worth! :)

Best wishes,
Bawko

[Wehr]

I think he maintains that top end binocs are being sold at a loss so that big profits can be made on low-end products made in China, etc., which share the same brand names. Swaro, of course, doesn't market any low-end binocs, so to me the argument is specious. My guess is that SLCs (for example) cost less than ELs primarily because the tooling has remained the same for 10+ yrs., and production has become very efficient. Probably the same can be said of the Trinovid and ClassiC lines, which are actually lower in cost than inflation would justify. In that respect they are good buys, at least in the US, so long as quality control is maintained.


On my opinion the SLCs and the ELs are top bins, but the porros are not. Although the porros are no low-end binocs there are much better ones in the market (Nikon SE).

Walter

[Leif]

Yeah I really can't agree with that argument at all. Designing, manufacturing marketing and distributing top quality bins just to maintain an image?

I don't believe it either. Leica make various items including measurement tools, cameras and binoculars. My guess is that the camera division is losing money, due presumably to reduced sales as people migrate to digital, but the binocular division might be making money. Companies like Nikon and Zeiss are larger, and can spread development costs - e.g. coatings - over several product areas.

Anyway, I would not describe non premium binoculars, and binoculars from other manufacturers as junk. Fujinon make some extremely nice kit, albeit not really for the birding market. Canon's IS binoculars are well regarded. Some Minox bins I tried seemed very useable. Opticron are not junk either. I could go on.

Leif

[Wehr]

Yeah I really can't agree with that argument at all. Designing, manufacturing marketing and distributing top quality bins just to maintain an image?

Let us speak about Zeiss. It is a company well known for high precision optics used in the sectors of astronomy, microscopy, military and sports (hobby). This descibes the history of their original image.

Nowadays Zeiss makes money mainly on the industrial sector. They have cancelled their entire amateur astronomy division and now private customers and the consumer market are something like peanuts for them.

Nevertheless they know that they are expected to offer some fine sophisticated toys even for private use - sports optics.

I'm convinced that cancelling this devision too would harm more and more even their main business.

Nikon is a complete different company, but their situation is perhaps a little bit comparable in this respect.

Regards
Walter

[Wehr]

I don't believe it either. Leica make various items including measurement tools, cameras and binoculars. My guess is that the camera division is losing money, due presumably to reduced sales as people migrate to digital, but the binocular division might be making money. Companies like Nikon and Zeiss are larger, and can spread development costs - e.g. coatings - over several product areas.

Anyway, I would not describe non premium binoculars, and binoculars from other manufacturers as junk. Fujinon make some extremely nice kit, albeit not really for the birding market. Canon's IS binoculars are well regarded. Some Minox bins I tried seemed very useable. Opticron are not junk either. I could go on.

Leif

Hello Leif,

measurement tools, cameras and sports optics - this is the Leica Camera AG. They are expected to turn over less than 100 million Euros with more than 13 million Euros loss this year.

Besides there are the companies of Leica Geosystems AG (Switzerland) and Leica Microsystems AG (Germany). Both of them are completely independent and have nothing to do with the Leica Camera AG.

It was not my intention to describe all non premium binoculars as junk, but I was talking solely about binoculars, which are made as good as possible with todays means of engineering and technology.
Please note in respect of both, optics a n d mechanics.

Therefore I would place (only the best binoculars of) Canon, Fujinon, Steiner, Minox a.s.o. in the extensive middle class. Limits are moving. So I admit that perhaps Opticron and Pentax are entering the club with the one or the other binocular.

Regards
Walter

[dwalton]

Hello Leif,

measurement tools, cameras and sports optics - this is the Leica Camera AG. They are expected to turn over less than 100 million Euros with more than 13 million Euros loss this year.

Besides there are the companies of Leica Geosystems AG (Switzerland) and Leica Microsystems AG (Germany). Both of them are completely independent and have nothing to do with the Leica Camera AG.

It was not my intention to describe all non premium binoculars as junk, but I was talking solely about binoculars, which are made as good as possible with todays means of engineering and technology.
Please note in respect of both, optics a n d mechanics.

Therefore I would place (only the best binoculars of) Canon, Fujinon, Steiner, Minox a.s.o. in the extensive middle class. Limits are moving. So I admit that perhaps Opticron and Pentax are entering the club with the one or the other binocular.

Regards
Walter
From what I've seen, Pentax has definitely entered the "middle class" club with the XP line.

[Wehr]

From what I've seen, Pentax has definitely entered the "middle class" club with the XP line.

And may be the DCF SP line is not far away from the "top class".

[NWBirder]

while reading another thread, this old one popped up as a related discussion. Interesting... I guess the same topic has been going on for ages. But some of the prediction in 2005 seem to become a reality, like $500 med level high quality binos.

[Kevin Purcell]

Wow. People thinking the Pentax SP was not a good middle range bin. Damm that cheap Janapese crap ;)

And this thread refers to this previous (and entertaining!) thread

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=30617&highlight=swarovski

near the top.

Seems like some discussions never change. Brace yourself for 2010 and the almost $4000 new Swaro El ;)

The model for the Euro 3 (and Nikon) is the "supercar" model: very expensive products that are often excellent for the rich (or otherwise price insensitive).

The rest of us are happy with Honda or some must by Ford's but they mostly work and some are very good.

Though I think of Nikon as the Toyota of the bin world - they make the full range of products from cheap and OK up to excellent.

The arguments against Chinese bins sound a lot like those against the VW Bug in the 1960s or the Japanese imports of the 1970s and 1980s.

We live in interesting times. ;)

[Tero]

I still have 10x Nikons and Pentax, but if I had to get rid of one, it would be the Monarch. But I could not sell them for much, so I keep them for backup, and to lend to visitors.