Scottish Crossbill - dubious split? any DNA proof?

[crossbill]

I'm a new member so first of all, hello! I have posted a short introduction in the say hello section in case you want to know more about me.
Now, for my question. I don't know whether any of you remember a very lively discussion you had at the end of 2003 about the Scottish Crossbill? I came across it a week or so ago and was really interested in some of the points raised, particularly the suggestion that the Scottish Crossbill's "discovery" may well have had quite a lot to do with the fact that conservationists here needed an iconic Scottish bird to help them get European funding.
I was wondering if some of you who took part in that discussion would be willing to chat again and perhaps update me.
I would be particularly interested to know whether anyone knows if conclusive DNA tests have been carried out to determine whether the Scottish crossbill is indeed separate from other Crossbills.
I hope some of you can help. ;)

[Larry Lade]

Sorry I am not all that familiar with the "crossbill discussion". Here in the states we just have Red Crossbills and White-winged Crossbills. I know even here there are on-going discussions about "sorting out" the various "strains" of the Red Crossbill, particularly.

I am posting this to "bump it up" and perhaps someone will respond to your request for some more discussion on this topic.

One of the original threads on this issue was here:

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=9413

[kingfisher]

Hi Crossbill welcome to BF, Having spent a week in the Scottish Highlands and saw both the Common and Scottish, its clear both birds more or less the same species with the Scottish species slighty more stockier with a heavier bill as you know, I for one, hope the day never arrives when they become one, and it has been dicussed again, it will take a brave soul to remove the the Scottish Crossbill, never did see a Parrot Crossbill while I was there.......what about them !!

[crossbill]

Thanks to both of you. Hope you don't mind my bumping this one up again, as you so nicely put it Larry! Promise it will be the last time I'll do it if it still doesn't attract much interest!

[Tim Allwood]

check here

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=9413&highlight=crossbill+species+scottish

spud / logos's post (no 2) is still last word for me

where is he? he was extremely knowledegable
cue my regular plea for his return
Tim

[crossbill]

Thanks guys.
The lively discussion in 2003 that I referred to was the one Tim and Larry have directed me to.
I am thinking of writing a story in my newspaper about the argument that the Scottish Crossbill is not a distinct species (which is why that thread was of such interest). However, to do that I need to find out whether anyone has proved, beyond a doubt, that it is (otherwise I am going to look very foolish!).
Research was mentioned during that discussion that I am sure would be extremely helpful to me ... but I have no idea how to track it down. (Just checked and it was Robinm who mentioned that research - are you still out there?)
...here's hoping!

[Andrew Whitehouse]

Presumably you'll need to get into the definition of a species, which is I think it's fair to say a big topic. Good luck!

[robinm]

Just checked and it was Robinm who mentioned that research - are you still out there?)
...here's hoping!
I'm still here (do I hear howls of disapproval;))

I will see if I can find the link - may take some time. I remember David Jardine was one of those involved.

There was also a brief reference to Crossbills in the October BB article on taxonomy.

[crossbill]

Thanks Robin

[Steve Babbs]

I'm still here (do I hear howls of disapproval;))

I will see if I can find the link - may take some time. I remember David Jardine was one of those involved.

There was also a brief reference to Crossbills in the October BB article on taxonomy.

The BB article says "there are no clear differences among the DNA of any of the three current western European species". It doesn't, however, say they are not different species. But as Robin says it is a bit of brief mention.

When I discuss Scottish Crossbill with other birders most feel guilty about that tick on their list. Concerned that even if it is a genuine species did they really see the right birds or just tick a crossbill sp. in the right area.

Steve

[Tim Allwood]

not on my list

never been a species

saw some nice Parrots up there in 2003 though

[Jos Stratford]

Don't remember what my UK list is anymore anyhow, but having read much of Lindsay's threads this year, I couldn't say the Scotbills I ticked way back in the 80s were them or not ...so on my super-dooper cleaned-up list, it is certainly minus one :)

[Docmartin]

The BB article says "there are no clear differences among the DNA of any of the three current western European species". It doesn't, however, say they are not different species. But as Robin says it is a bit of brief mention.



The bit in the BB paper that is most relevant to this thread is tucked away in a figure legend
'As Britain’s only currently recognised endemic bird species, the Scottish Crossbill is a signature species for its habitat and attracts major conservation funding for the Caledonian pine forests. Genetically, however, it appears to be indistinguishable from Common and Parrot Crossbills. In the current age, when conservation effort is increasingly concentrated in the protection of genetic biodiversity, where does Scottish Crossbill stand?'

The Scotbill split stands largely on the basis of intermediate bill size and apparent assortative mating. The BB paper draws parallels with Ground Finches Geospiza in the galapagos, where the different speces also are largely differentiated by bill size and are not genetically distinguishable. There is also a lot of hybridisation, but in most years this doesn't matter as there is plenty to eat and birds can survive pretty much whatever their bill size is. It's only in difficult years (on galapagos, for example, prolonged drought) where severe natural selection only allows survival of birds with bills 'optimal' for their specialised food supply, and birds with intermediate bills are snuffed. Something similar might happen with Crossbills.

[Tim Allwood]

The Scotbill split stands largely on the basis of intermediate bill size and apparent assortative mating.

assortative mating is 'apparent'

no-one really knows what the Fc3/EcC calls are; Fc3 given by med birds!

no genetic diffs

basically no evidence

if it were a 'species' we'd have known years ago

let's not open it all up again - it was done to death in original thread

tim

[Lindsay Cargill]

The Scotbill split stands largely on the basis of intermediate bill size and apparent assortative mating.

assortative mating is 'apparent'

no-one really knows what the Fc3/EcC calls are; Fc3 given by med birds!

no genetic diffs

basically no evidence

if it were a 'species' we'd have known years ago

let's not open it all up again - it was done to death in original thread

tim

assortative mating can and has been shown/proven - birds giving same calls, same bill depths, progeny exhibiting bill and call habits of parents

only Fc3 in Med so far, possibly more worrying is that they are giving Parrot EcD !!! 3:-)

Genetic diff. has been addressed by Doc Martin re- finches in Galapagos

also........they have a Scottish accent : " Och aye min, I am a Scoateesh Crossbull, ye ken"

I agree lets not open it up again......people fall out :-C

Linz

[Tim Allwood]

i can see them being remnant Parrots though maybe

which would explain a lot

Tim

[Lindsay Cargill]

i can see them being remnant Parrots though maybe

which would explain a lot

Tim

Very possibly, or hybrids of.........watch this space !


Linz

[Lindsay Cargill]

I see the Mods have been editing posts again........ better tip toe quietly !

Linz

[Tim Allwood]

Very possibly, or hybrids of.........watch this space !


Linz

watcha Linz

i think i touched on this possibility in original thread?

would it be the perfect solution? :king:

Tim

[crossbill]

Hi,
Just wanted to say thanks for opening the whole debate up again - even if it had been done to death in previous threads! It helps me a lot.
Lindsay, I will have a chat to Ron and look at the other threads you mentioned (need to set aside a bit of time by the sounds of it!)
...can I just check that I've got the basic argument right: No DNA differences between Scottish, Parrot, Common Crossbills. Scottish Crossbill identified by its differing calls and bill length. For many people these differences are so slight that it becomes extremely difficult to distinguish them from other Crossbills. Some believe the Scottish Crossbill may in fact just be a hybrid (I presume this would be a cross between Parrot and Common?). However, others (Lindsay in this case!) say Crossbills with the bill length and calls we are talking about are only found in Scotland - if it was a hybrid then surely it would also be found on the continent.
I'm not asking you to repeat everything you've said here, just correct me if any of the above is wrong!

[jpoyner]

I know of several reliable sightings in Speyside of mixed pairs. One last year appeared to be a Parrot with a much smaller billed mate.
So what on earth are these offspring......and what do they end up pairing with?
I've given up speculating as in the field it's just basically guess work as to what you are seeing.

The question in my mind is just how much more money and time should be spent on this one? Research has been ongoing for decades and so far there hasn't been a definite conclusion. I would be very interested indeed to see a figure put on the total cost of the whole issue? A quarter of a million, half a million £.....possibly more.....research doesn't come cheap.


Perhaps it's time to just knock it on the head and channel the funds to more pressing research instead........a valid point surely considering most of this is from the public purse?

JP

[Tim Hall]

Claimed Scottish Crossbills in Abernethy about 1996-1998. Remember good views of a few birds with larger bills than I was used to seeing, and I remember some of them having a deeper call. Wasn't aware of the presence of Parrots there until much later.
On balance, I think that they were probably Parrots, but appreciate now that it is almost impossible to be sure .... looks like my list might have to contract....

[Lindsay Cargill]

The question in my mind is just how much more money and time should be spent on this one? Research has been ongoing for decades and so far there hasn't been a definite conclusion. I would be very interested indeed to see a figure put on the total cost of the whole issue? A quarter of a million, half a million £.....possibly more.....research doesn't come cheap.

Perhaps it's time to just knock it on the head and channel the funds to more pressing research instead........a valid point surely considering most of this is from the public purse?

JP

Costs a lot less than a useless "Scottish" parliament - £480 Million, which thus far has peaked in function as a "talking shop". Cost a lot less than invading and "managing" a certain oil rich country, or legislating for the ban on the right of people to hunt animals with hounds - THESE ARE A WASTE OF MONEY. IMHO ANY MONEY SPENT ON ENVIRONMENTAL RESEARCH OF ANY KIND IS WELCOME IN LIGHT OF THE AFOREMENTIONED.

Oh, and FYI JP some of us actually fund our own research from our own finances........ :storm:

L

[Jos Stratford]

Costs a lot less than a useless "Scottish" parliament - £480 Million, which thus far has peaked in function as a "talking shop". Cost a lot less than invading and "managing" a certain oil rich country, or legislating for the ban on the right of people to hunt animals with hounds - THESE ARE A WASTE OF MONEY. IMHO ANY MONEY SPENT ON ENVIRONMENTAL RESEARCH OF ANY KIND IS WELCOME IN LIGHT OF THE AFOREMENTIONED.



I would say this post stands a very good chance of leading this thread off at a tangent, i.e. off topic :)


Don't begrudge money spent on Crossbill research, but if we are evaluating which are deservant of money spent, I personally believe money spent on the last of your mentioned 'wastes' of money was quite well-spent.

[Lindsay Cargill]

I would say this post stands a very good chance of leading this thread off at a tangent, i.e. off topic :)


Don't begrudge money spent on Crossbill research, but if we are evaluating which are deservant of money spent, I personally believe money spent on the last of your mentioned 'wastes' of money was quite well-spent.

Was putting it in perspective so don't think it is off topic as you put it.

Hunting bill doesn't effect me and have no opinion of it either way. However, if Govt Lawyers made the bill watertight would have saved a lot of Taxpayers money, so I still see it as a waste ?

[Lindsay Cargill]

Think Tim has hit it on the head (bill even) here. The assortative mating assumption has been a major flaw in the whole of the research. I think mixed pairing is a regular occurance and has been largely ignored........as it's implications throw such a spanner in the works!!
So if we make the assumption that "Scottish" is a species, and that Parrot/Common hyrids exist too.......how would a researcher tell them apart....before commencing a study?
Is anyone denying 100% that Parrot/Common hybrids do exist....thats the million dollar question????

JP

Ehhh ? JP we have been through this before - there is no revelation in your assertions that there are hybrids. Sorry - have lost this post twice trying to submit so am getting a bit impatient ! There is no flaw in the assortative mating research – it acknowledges mixed pairs.

Of course hybrids do exist and as I have said before, and Doc Martin on this thread, they occur in circumstances and at levels that will have little or no divergence on the continuing and sustaining gene pool. Assortative mating HAS been studied and has NOT been largely ignored, and is continuing to be researched - this is not theory it is fact – though I agree more should be done ( though you don’t want to fund it ! ). I am about to do “Assortative” stuff on nest sites next Spring to see if calls change, and colour ring and mark large-billed birds so I can track individuals and monitor their call structure over time ( years ) at several sites and see if there is a seasonal effect ( don’t think there is, except that they are vocally more “excited” in Feb-Apr , but it has to be done ). You will be relieved to know that this will be funded by myself and not the Brit taxpayer, simply because I am interested and fancy the challenge.

The birds I study form tend to form associations with birds giving same calls, same bills, and progeny that inherit these. In Winter sure you get mixed flocks but they soon fragment into their respective “types”. I have recorded what appears to be Parrot and Scotbill mixed pairs twice in Deeside now ( at breeding time ). It must be stressed that this is based on the current call assignation – this will probably be reviewed in the future. I watched groups of Parrots today and they already seem to be in loosely defined pairs, some males with two females – all giving same call types as each other, looked the same. I have several calls that are not currently categorised. I also photographed a stonker of an adult Parrot male with white wing bar on greater coverts and white fringes on tertials. Strange SH1t does happen.

The most likey candidate for "hybrid" in MHO is a bird that gives EcC ( scottish ), but that is easily refuted and will probably be laughed at by some - I reserve the right to U turn ! Knox and Nethersole Thompson did not record ANY of these ( as far as I know ) in the 70's, it was Parrots giving EcD instead. These, I now believe, are most likely the dormant, or remnant to use das Generals assertion, Scottish Crossbill, and have been confused as it for years - at least 50. This would appear to be in line with the taxonomy and call structures of “Pine” Crossbills in the Med region, though this research is even more in its infancy than for Scotbill.

These Parrot, along with the intermediates birds (currently Scotbill ) ARE long term resident, possibly endemic - Marquiss and Rae showed they stayed in location for many years, they do not irrupt or go back to Scandie land. They successfully breed and stay put. That is fact, governed by extensive field work over many years by these guys. Numbers fluctuate governed by cone crop – this year is good hence max flock of Parrots so far 28, yes 28 and I hope to top this. Got the photos and calls to validate.

Ch.rist gotta go lie down, lugging mics, camera bins around the hills all day.Knackered.

Will be off line for a while – switched to Broadband with Wanadoo, should be called Canadoo – no signal no nothing, crap customer service. I am on someone elses computer and they are getting Piss.ed with me hogging it so best keep the peace !

Best wishes,

Linz

[Lindsay Cargill]

Hi,
Just wanted to say thanks for opening the whole debate up again - even if it had been done to death in previous threads! It helps me a lot.
Lindsay, I will have a chat to Ron and look at the other threads you mentioned (need to set aside a bit of time by the sounds of it!)
...can I just check that I've got the basic argument right: No DNA differences between Scottish, Parrot, Common Crossbills. Scottish Crossbill identified by its differing calls and bill length. For many people these differences are so slight that it becomes extremely difficult to distinguish them from other Crossbills. Some believe the Scottish Crossbill may in fact just be a hybrid (I presume this would be a cross between Parrot and Common?). However, others (Lindsay in this case!) say Crossbills with the bill length and calls we are talking about are only found in Scotland - if it was a hybrid then surely it would also be found on the continent.
I'm not asking you to repeat everything you've said here, just correct me if any of the above is wrong!

Do chat with Ron - can PM his contact details if you wish, but first you better let me know what "rag" you scribe for so I can check its ok by him ! I am meeting him in Abernethy soon so you should try to get out and see these things yourself too........

If EcC is a hybrid, and I say if tentatively, the envionmental conditions that are prevalent in Scotland could have some bearing. There is possibly more niche separation on the continentent between Parrot and Common than exists in Scotland. In Scotland there is a "mosiaic" of conifer types to quote Marquiss and Rae. This could be the factor.

Linz

[jpoyner]

Sorry if I hit a nerve re. the funding question Lindsay but I did think that from a "laymans" point of view it was a valid input to the debate to question the money being spent on research of a single species' taxonomy.

Think that I'll withdraw from this debate and thread here!

All The Best.

JP

[Lindsay Cargill]

Sorry if I hit a nerve re. the funding question Lindsay but I did think that from a "laymans" point of view it was a valid input to the debate to question the money being spent on research of a single species' taxonomy.

Think that I'll withdraw from this debate and thread here!

All The Best.

JP

Hi JP,

No need to withdraw - as someone who observes Loxia regularly in Speyside you have a right to your views, "laymans" or otherwise, although as I have said to somone on this Forum in the past, it is essential to know the whole story, or certainly the story thus far to really push a point. It is a scientfic debate whether we like it or not - personally I am old school, obersevational and behavioural biologist, but appreciate that we need data points.

As a taxpayer you are also entitled to your views regarding government funded research and policy, as am I and candidly demonstrated. I guess RSPB get a lot of European funding due to it being an Red List endemic, but am sure they would say they fund much of it themselves from their own revenue raised through membership, merchandise etc. They are geniunely concerned with conservation issues, love or hate the ole RSPB. I know for a fact that the scientist concerned only spends about 3 months per year on xbills - hardly a high wage factor. That is why it is important that others continue the work all year round. The answer is with in touching distance..... hopefully.

"Scotbill", that is a resident endemic "Scottish" Crossbill, exists its just it might not be what we think/what we thought it is - possibly ! Thats my opinion at the mo. :gn:

Best wishes,

Linz

[Lindsay Cargill]

Think that I'll withdraw from this debate and thread here!

All The Best.

JP

I think I have said way too much already and I will also bow down !

Best wishes,

Lindsay

[London Birder]

fascinating stuff Lindsay, keep up the good work

[jurek]

Great thread. Did anybody investigate:
- Do young develop same contact call as adults?
- Do adults learn calls in life?
- Are calls learned or genetically based?
- Did anybody look at other genes (microsatellite variation?) to see how long (if at all) various forms of crossbills differentiated?
(if not, it may be relatively quick and worthwhile to do).

[crossbill]

Thanks for offering to get Ron's details Lyndsey. However, I have to go through the RSPB press office otherwise they get a bit upset! Sure it won't be a problem for me to speak to him. The rag I work for is called The Herald.

[Tim Allwood]

the only sedentary crosser then? ;)

[Lindsay Cargill]

Thanks for offering to get Ron's details Lyndsey. However, I have to go through the RSPB press office otherwise they get a bit upset! Sure it won't be a problem for me to speak to him. The rag I work for is called The Herald.

Thats why I asked rather than pass out details. No offence meant by "Rag" ;) - just a term

Bill depth is the best morphological feature along with calls by the way, not bill length though it can differ.

If I were you I would write on how Scotland has successfully been colonised by Osprey's - a real conservation sucess story.......as you can see Scotbill is a rather vague and contentious subject !

Anyhow, I am supposed to be off this thread.

Tim, I have missed your intent - sorry.

Linz

[Lindsay Cargill]

Shouda said, BBC did a press release last year or before, could have been a paper ( Scotsman ?) that if global warming continued at current rate Scotbill would have to take up residence in Iceland - utter crap, someone has obviously been misquoted here - the native Scots Pine woods of Iceland ? Hence it is important to get the facts right and not skim "juicy" bits eg. it is a hybrid, etc. Could threaten funding or reputations. Open forums are possibly not the best place to gather info, though they do offer stimulating debate............just a thought. Speak to Ron...........or do the Ospreys !

Linz

[Jos Stratford]

Scotbill would have to take up residence in Iceland

Have you recorded the Scotbill call when it's shivering. Wouldn't be able to do EcC calls for starters - only allowed inside the European Union! 3:-)

[Lindsay Cargill]

Have you recorded the Scotbill call when it's shivering. Wouldn't be able to do EcC calls for starters - only allowed inside the European Union! 3:-)

See, this is what I mean about context and being misquoted, your post reads:

Originally Posted by Lindsay Cargill - "Scotbill would have to take up residence in Iceland".

Hence my paranoia about journalists ( esp. ones that dont use their real name ).......

Haven't recorded EcC when the xbill has shivered, but sure as heck have recorded it when I have been - I live in Scotland.

Thought it was funny though Jos !

Linz

[Tim Allwood]

Linz

sedentary thing was an old joke from not BB

Ciao
Tim

[crossbill]

Hence my paranoia about journalists ( esp. ones that dont use their real name ).......

Linz

Journalists are not the most popular of people (for perfectly understandable reasons because there are a minority who couldn't care less for the effect their stories might have on ordinary people and who have given the rest of us a bad name). For that reason, we do tend to get a lot of unpleasant phone calls and letters, whether we deserve them or not. I chose not to use my real name on here because it is a publically accessible forum and, while everyone to whom I have so far spoken has been helpful, knowledgeable and polite, there could be the odd crank who would see it as an opportunity to cause the kind of problems I mentioned above. I notice there are a number of other users on here (and other forums) who use a nickname. I have never before heard of this being a problem.
I would be more than happy to tell you my name Lyndsay, just send me a pm and ask me if you wish to know. By the way, I have already done the story about Ospreys, as have many other newspapers. Unfortunately in my job you always have to find something new.

[Jos Stratford]

Unfortunately in my job you always have to find something new.

I reckon a Gallic-speaking crossbill, clearly confusing many by its strange accent, yet seeking independance from other crossbills resident in the United Kingdom, would make a great read for many a Scottish readership ...like on like, might induce a bit of sympathy for the cause :)

[Lindsay Cargill]

Lyndsay

Lindsay not Lyndsay ;)

Not having a dig about not using name, but you can perhaps appreciate it can cause grounds for suspicion.

Scotbill issue not new and has aready had some (albeit dodgy) media coverage. Speak to the Ronster and he will bring you up to speed with all the stuff. He has done a heck of a lot in the last 10 years or so and knows more than anyone at this moment.

Tim, still don't get it, duh ! :egghead:

Linz

[Lindsay Cargill]

I reckon a Gallic-speaking crossbill, clearly confusing many by its strange accent, yet seeking independance from other crossbills resident in the United Kingdom, would make a great read for many a Scottish readership ...like on like, might induce a bit of sympathy for the cause :)

That, my friend is a lot to do with it !

I am looking over my shoulder continually now after slagging off the Scottish Parliament ( sorry, "Executive" eg. The (old ) Scottish Office in a buliding that cost nearly £500 million and looks like my 4 year old nephew designed ! ).

Linz

[crossbill]

find me one Jos please ... what a fab story that would be!

Sorry for spelling your name wrongly LC ;)

[Docmartin]

find me one Jos please ... what a fab story that would be!

Sorry for spelling your name wrongly LC ;)


If you want a *really* interesting story, you should cover Scotland's endemic subspecies, many of which Herald readers might identify more with - hebridean song thrush, the various wrens, 'our' ptarmigan etc.

[crossbill]

I didn't know there were endemic subspecies Docmartin - sorry to be ignorant! How do they differ from these species elsewhere in the world? Are the differences between them similar to the differences between the Scottish Crossbill and Common or Parrot?
Also, just to show up my ignorance yet again, what does BB stand for? Is it a magazine or scientific journal?

[Jos Stratford]

'BB' is 'British Birds', probably the best bird journal out there.

'Not BB' was a spoof of it, I believe, is it still going?


Actually, I would agree with Docmartin, the endemic races would be really interesting. As to how distinctive they are, probably more so than the crossbills ;)

[Docmartin]

I didn't know there were endemic subspecies Docmartin - sorry to be ignorant! How do they differ from these species elsewhere in the world? Are the differences between them similar to the differences between the Scottish Crossbill and Common or Parrot?
Also, just to show up my ignorance yet again, what does BB stand for? Is it a magazine or scientific journal?

Yes, BB is British Birds, quite possibly the best bird magazine, certainly the oldest (1907). I'm on the editorial board. The October 2005 issue had the paper referring to Scottish Crossbills. You also need to see the March 2003 BB for
Summers and Piertney 2003. The Scottish Crossbill - what we know and what we don't. Brit. Birds 96 100-111.

http://www.britishbirds.co.uk

Scottish subspecies - there are 9 currently recognised endemic subspecies in Scotland. Perhaps the most interesting are the wrens - Fair Isle Wren. Shetland Wren, Hebridean Wren and St Kilda Wren. These are all rather distinctly different from 'mainland' Wrens found elsewhere in Scotland and the UK, and may have more right to species status than Scottish Crossbill. :eek!:
Then there is the Scottish Ptarmigan - again recognisably different from other European subspecies. The Scottish Crested Tit and Hebridean Song Thrush are distinct endemic subspecies too; you'd struggle to see the differences between them and other subspecies in the field (though still easier than identifying a Scottish Crossbill!). There is also the Shetland Starling, endemic but frankly requires a leap of imagination to see the differences in the field.
I'll offer a small prize of a lollipop to anyone who can name the ninth subspecies, and two lollipops to anyone who cares.

The definitive paper on endemic Scottish subspecies was published in the June 2003 issue of Scottish Birds, the scientific journal of the Scottish Ornithologists' Club (SOC). http://www.the-soc.zenwebhosting.com/
McGowan et al 2003. Scotland's endemic subspecies. Scot Birds 24, 18-35.

[redeyedvideo]

I'll offer a small prize of a lollipop to anyone who can name the ninth subspecies, and two lollipops to anyone who cares.



It should be Chaffinch based on song but how about Red Grouse? Do I get one for trying?


Dave J

[Birdspotter]

[QUOTE=Docmartin]
Scottish subspecies - there are 9 currently recognised endemic subspecies in Scotland. Perhaps the most interesting are the wrens - Fair Isle Wren. Shetland Wren, Hebridean Wren and St Kilda Wren. These are all rather distinctly different from 'mainland' Wrens found elsewhere in Scotland and the UK, and may have more right to species status than Scottish Crossbill. :eek!:
Then there is the Scottish Ptarmigan - again recognisably different from other European subspecies. The Scottish Crested Tit and Hebridean Song Thrush are distinct endemic subspecies too; you'd struggle to see the differences between them and other subspecies in the field (though still easier than identifying a Scottish Crossbill!). There is also the Shetland Starling, endemic but frankly requires a leap of imagination to see the differences in the field.
I'll offer a small prize of a lollipop to anyone who can name the ninth subspecies, and two lollipops to anyone who cares.

Hi Martin,
Linnet is the ninth subspecies and as I also care thats two lollipops you owe me.
I like raspberry flavoured.

[Docmartin]

Linnet is the ninth subspecies and as I also care thats two lollipops you owe me.
I like raspberry flavoured.

Sorry I only have 'lime and red pepper' and 'vegetable korma'. Will they do?

[Birdspotter]

Sorry I only have 'lime and red pepper' and 'vegetable korma'. Will they do?

Mmmmm that will do nicely.

[hil5]

there's a newspaper article about birdforum and this subject

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/50171.html

[crossbill]

Yep, that's me hil5. I took some quotes from the previous thread in 2003 and then had a chat to the RSPB. They've promised to give me a look at the new research once it is ready for publication, so will let you all know what the findings are.
Thanks again for the help.

[hil5]

Yep, that's me hil5. I took some quotes from the previous thread in 2003 and then had a chat to the RSPB. They've promised to give me a look at the new research once it is ready for publication, so will let you all know what the findings are.
Thanks again for the help.

Great! You should be blowing your own trumpet with that article, a journalist with integrity.

It's also good publicity for birdforum.

[Docmartin]

Yep, that's me hil5. I took some quotes from the previous thread in 2003 and then had a chat to the RSPB. They've promised to give me a look at the new research once it is ready for publication, so will let you all know what the findings are.
Thanks again for the help.

Blimey, who told you it was declared a separate species only 4 years ago? It was described for the first time as a race of Common Crossbill in 1904, then variously included as a subspecies of Common or Parrot Crossbill for about 70 years. the first proposal that it shuld be a full species that I can find was in 1963 (Salomonsen), but it was pioneering work by, in particular, Alan Knox, published in 1975 and 1976 that lead to it being accepted as a species in the Voous list of Holarctic birds in 1977. So 28 years. I thought that extensive quote you included was just plain insulting to the people working on Crossbill taxonomy and it would have taken about 2 picoseconds to find a quote from someone who wasn't talking out of his or her erse. Otherwise it was fine
:t:

[tom mckinney]

Great! You should be blowing your own trumpet with that article, a journalist with integrity.

I tend to disagree. Whilst Birdforum undoubtedly has some people in positions of authority (for example the Doc - who you don't even quote) I hardly think that quoting from an unvetted, non-peer reviewed, public internet forum is a particularly clever thing to do when talking about something as complex as Crossbill taxonomy. And how come Lindsay wasn't mentioned - whether in a positive or negative light?

[Tim Allwood]

oh dear

ha ha ha

thank f*** he left my name out

[tom mckinney]

And another thing, do you reckon that one day you journalists could possibly think of a heading about birding that doesn't begin with "Feathers Flying"?

:-)

[redeyedvideo]

I took some quotes from the previous thread in 2003 and then had a chat to the RSPB.


When you say you had a chat with the RSPB, was it some bloke in a hide somewhere with an RSPB badge, a voluntary warden at Titchwell or someone who knows about Crossbills?

I've yet to read anything factual in the press about wild birds & your article seems to be accusing conservation bodies of lying to obtain grants.

You should be proud of yourself. a hundred years of hard work undone by some hack trying to make a name for his or herself.


Dave J

[Mike Pennington]

You should be proud of yourself. a hundred years of hard work undone by some hack trying to make a name for his or herself.




A typically lazy and ill-informed piece of journalism. Barely a word that really deserves to be there.

[crossbill]

Hi all,

Thanks to those of you who liked it and apologies to those of you who didn't.

I'll try to answer some questions if I can. I quoted from a public forum because it seemed to be the only way for me to do it. Perhaps I am wrong, but it seems that the only people researching this bird are part of the RSPB, which - if the arguments some made on this forum are right - have a vested interest in maintaining its status. The RSPB understand that and have been fine about it - they are well aware this argument is going on. If they weren't comfortable with it I'm sure they would not let me see this new research they are working on.
DocMartin - I can only apologise about the four year thing. There were articles in the Scottish press at that time saying that it had just been declared a separate species following the publication of research from the RSPB. Of course, you can't always believe what is written in the papers!
Lindsay wasn't mentioned because he clearly was not comfortable with this discussion. He deleted many of his posts and did not reply to a message I sent him so I felt it wasn't fair to quote him ... as well as difficult considering the majority of his posts had disappeared.
Saying all that - I still really appreciated all the help I have been given on here and will take your criticisms on board.
Vicky

[crossbill]

Dave J - sorry, I missed your comment. I got in touch with the RSPB press office and they spoke to Ron Summers who is doing the research on this.