What Are The Ultimate Binoculars

[django]

Owing to a limited budget like many of us I have always have had to be content with low or mid range bins,however would love to know (May win the lottery and want to be ready) is there perfection out there,what would members consider the ultimate binocular and why .

[dbradnum]

In short:

- perfection is not out there, and never will be. You can't please all the people all the time.
- there's loads of threads along these basic lines (asking what are "the best" optics) on the optics forum; take a browse through, and you'll soon find what I mean. They almost inevitably end up with one of two conclusions: (a) an argument between different people who are obsessed with different bins, or (b) a pragmatic view that says something like "the best bins are the ones you get on with best".

I subscribe to the second point of view... so to answer your question, I suggest you go along to an optics retailer, or a bird fair, and try all the top end products and decide for yourself - you'll get a lot more value for your time, I think!

Probably not the answer you were expecting, but hope it's useful nonetheless.

[Atomic Chicken]

Owing to a limited budget like many of us I have always have had to be content with low or mid range bins,however would love to know (May win the lottery and want to be ready) is there perfection out there,what would members consider the ultimate binocular and why .

Easy!

Depending on who you ask it is either:

(a) The ones you have with you when the once-in-a-lifetime bird appears, or
(b) The ones you haven't bought yet... until you buy them, then go to (b)

Seriously, though... try as many as you can, and buy the best ones you can afford NEXT YEAR after doing more saving.

Best wishes,
Bawko

[Bubbs]

I agree with David. The perfect bins have yet to be made. Many will say Leica but that focussing wheel revolving around sandpaper (gritty) really puts me off, plus my partners Leicas focussing is really 'notchy'.

I have always been a Zeiss fan but the new models just don't do anything for me.

I recently purchased a new pair of Nikon 8x32 HG's from Warehouse Express and I can't fault them, and at that price they are a real bargain.

John.

[django]

I agree that choice of binoculars is a very personal thing! but what according to the experts are considered to be the highest quality lenses on the market

[Jaeger01]

Owing to a limited budget like many of us I have always have had to be content with low or mid range bins,however would love to know (May win the lottery and want to be ready) is there perfection out there,what would members consider the ultimate binocular and why .

Regardless of cost, perfection is only in the eye of the beholder.

Jaeger near Chicago

[AlanFrench]

I agree that choice of binoculars is a very personal thing! but what according to the experts are considered to be the highest quality lenses on the market

It is a personal thing with the "experts" too, and you are going to find disagreement there too, even if it is only a single factor such as optical quality. Actually, even "optical quality," which sounds like one factor, is complex. Do you mean best resolution and contrast at the center of the field? Best overall performance over the entire field (the resolution and contrast always suffers some as you near the field stop)? Freedom from lateral color?

Clear skies, Alan

[ceasar]

There ain't no such thing! They are all varieties of compromises involving optics, construction, costs etc. You research and try as many as you can until you decide on the one that's best for you. Another compromise, if you will. Years later you are richer and your eyes are worse, so you compromise again and get another bin better suited for you. And so on.

[Bubbs]

There ain't no such thing! They are all varieties of compromises involving optics, construction, costs etc. You research and try as many as you can until you decide on the one that's best for you. Another compromise, if you will. Years later you are richer and your eyes are worse, so you compromise again and get another bin better suited for you. And so on.

Agreed.

As I got older I noticed my 'old faithfuls' magnified my shake (we all have it). So I bought a pair of 8's with a wider FOV and they are fine.

One thing we are all agreed on...TRY BEFORE YOU BUY.

John.

[matt green]

my very first binoculars were bushnell natureview plus porroprisms[10+42],i never found anything wrong with the focus or noticed a wobbly bridge and in all the time i had them they never lost collumnation neither did the rubber peel away from the body,the optics were'nt great but at the time i had never handled a pair of leica or swarovski so never noticed how moderate they were in comparison.
i could go out tomorrow and buy a pair of ziess or leica and complain about rough focusing or plastic body armour till cows come home.have had top end binocs since[though not at present]and had minor grumbles with £700+ optics!.
i guess you need to find a pair that you are comfortable with wether they cost £120 or £920 and just enjoy them and the good health and freedom to roam that comes with birding.

matt :t:

[hummerman]

I agree with David. The perfect bins have yet to be made. Many will say Leica but that focussing wheel revolving around sandpaper (gritty) really puts me off, plus my partners Leicas focussing is really 'notchy'.

I have always been a Zeiss fan but the new models just don't do anything for me.

I recently purchased a new pair of Nikon 8x32 HG's from Warehouse Express and I can't fault them, and at that price they are a real bargain.

John.

Is this focussing issue common on just the ultras,i have no probs with my 8x42s.??
/

[Tim Allwood]

Zeiss ClassiC dialyts 7 x 42
i currently have HG 8 x 32 like John and they are very good but i still love the ClassiCs

Tim

[pduxon]

(b) a pragmatic view that says something like "the best bins are the ones you get on with best".

I subscribe to the second point of view... so to answer your question, I suggest you go along to an optics retailer, or a bird fair, and try all the top end products and decide for yourself - you'll get a lot more value for your time, I think!

Probably not the answer you were expecting, but hope it's useful nonetheless.

Totally agree but I would add one caveat. The best bin is the one you are carrying. There are times I wouldn't be able to carry a full size bin which is when the little 8x21 comes into its own!

[Leif]

I agree that choice of binoculars is a very personal thing! but what according to the experts are considered to be the highest quality lenses on the market

Unfortunately a binocular is a compromise between cost, size, weight and ergonomics. And the bad news is that high quality optics are very expensive. IMO image quality is not perfect, though whether it can get any better given the constraints is unclear. Although there is no perfect binocular, there are some nice instruments out there. In favourable conditions the image quality can seem extraordinary. I am impressed by small compacts despite the slightly pokey view for an eyeglass wearer such as myself.

Leif

[django]

I suppose what I was trying to say is how much difference is there between the lens of a high class optic and a budget one,are lenses hand ground or hand finished do not understand what goes into making a high class lens.anyone know the tech details of this/

[Swissboy]

Is this focussing issue common on just the ultras,i have no probs with my 8x42s.??
/

Careful, the Trinovids are sometimes called Trinovid Ultra, and there is no problem with those. However, the newer model, called ULTRAVID often does have a problem. But there are also silky smooth ones. The compacts, 8x20 and 10x25 seem to be OK. At any rate, try the particular piece you intend to buy.

[xenophobe]

The perfect binoculars are the ones I put to my eyes and just go "WOW" every time I look through them. It never ceases to amaze me when I look through a brilliant pair of bins.

[iporali]

I suppose what I was trying to say is how much difference is there between the lens of a high class optic and a budget one,are lenses hand ground or hand finished do not understand what goes into making a high class lens.anyone know the tech details of this/
I guess everyone can see the difference between high class optics (Leica, Swaro, Zeiss & top-Nikon) and a budget one (at least with a little help). However, among the top brands the differences are so small that sample variation within a model/make can be larger than between the models/makes.

I don't know the details of optical manufacturing processes, but there are apparently many labour intensive steps, where higher class manufacturers can employ better quality control, or more expensive materials/processes.

Eg. making blocks of best optical glass requires very slow and precise cooling to make it as homogenous and strain-free as possible. Lower-grade manufacturers may get the pieces that are "left over" from the high-class makers or they may accept more rapidly cooled glass (containing microscopical air bubbles or internal strains). Lens coating processes can be different: how many and how precise layers they can add on the lenses. Prisms may need special coatings: mirrored surfaces can be made of aluminum (cheap), silver (better) or dielectric multi-layers (best). Phase coatings can be good or better. Some "exotic" glasses may be extremely expensive and difficult to grind/polish... these easily add up to significant price differences, but that is the way they get quite close to ultimate perfection. ;)

Ilkka

[Pinewood]

To Ilkka's comments, I would add that extra processes and their inspections add to the cost, with the inspections being labour intensive. For instance, better binouclar optics use lenses whose edges have been painted black. The painting may be done with machines but the inspections may still be accomplished by humans. A small change in the internal baffling of a binocular may make a noticeable difference. Coatings of all types seem to have different grades and the lower cost optics may have poorer consistency or quality control.
Read this for a lengthy description of differences among binouclars from the same manufacturer:
http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/678920/page/1/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1
According to a physicist, the greatest advances in optics, for the last decades, have been in coatings. How much benefit we get from these advances may vary from marque to marque.
Nevertheless, there are a few binoculars which do give a lot for the money. By the way that physicist uses an 8x30 Nikon EII for his travels.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood :scribe:

[kabsetz]

Arthur,

I second the view that improved coatings are the single most important developement, and I'll back this up with my experience with some Nikon eyepieces. Several years back, I bought the Fieldscope ED 78 with multicoated wideangle 38x and 50x eyepieces, the ones with foldable rubber eyecups. I found that there were some flare problems in certain kinds of lighting situations and especially at close focus range, and since there was an optical tech in the neighborhood, I had the lens edges of the eyepieces blackened with special flat black paint (they were not blackened by Nikon, obviously). The innards of the scope were similarly treated, as well as the prism and the edges of the focusing achromat. The result was a barely noticeable improvement, and whether it was worthwhile or not was rather questionable. Then, a couple of years later, Nikon introduced the MC series of eyepieces, with twistable eyecups and improved multicoatings. The contrast improvement and flare reduction evident from changing to the MC eyepiece from an otherwise identical and blackened older eyepiece was much more obvious than had been the benefits of the blackening excercise, and I never bothered to have the new ones blackened.

Kimmo

[Bubbs]

Zeiss ClassiC dialyts 7 x 42
i currently have HG 8 x 32 like John and they are very good but i still love the ClassiCs

Tim

And, like Tim', I still love my 24 year old Zeiss BGats, but the close focussing is hopeless. The close focus on the reasonably (on offer) priced Nikons is ace.

Make sure you buy bins with the said close focus; I've lost count of the times, here and abroad, that I have had to walk away from birds in order to get them in focus....very frustrating, especially when everyone else is a couple of metres in front of you, but at the time of purchase they were the 'tops'.

John.

[Renze de Vries]

And, like Tim', I still love my 24 year old Zeiss BGats, but the close focussing is hopeless. The close focus on the reasonably (on offer) priced Nikons is ace.

Make sure you buy bins with the said close focus; I've lost count of the times, here and abroad, that I have had to walk away from birds in order to get them in focus....very frustrating, especially when everyone else is a couple of metres in front of you, but at the time of purchase they were the 'tops'.

John.


Incredible! My 7x42 BGATP's are in focus from about 4 meters and you say you have to walk away with these bins in order to get your birds in focus, time and time again? I'm very seriously wondering what poor birds this could be, dead guillemots on the beach, domestic pigeons on the doorstep, pheasants lined up after the hunt? Besides, what kind of birdwatching is this? I can't recall my birding has ever been practised within 4 meters. And if someone/something would force me to it, I'm fairly certain I would quit.

Renze de Vries

[Curtis Croulet]

I often watch birds in my backyard at distances of 3 meters or less. For me close focus is important. If 4 meters is close enough for some people, so be it. But it's not close enough for me.

[Renze de Vries]

I often watch birds in my backyard at distances of 3 meters or less. For me close focus is important. If 4 meters is close enough for some people, so be it. But it's not close enough for me.

Your avatar, Curtis! Now I see. If there were hummingbirds in the Netherlands 4 meters not be enough for me as well!

Renze

[Curtis Croulet]

Your avatar, Curtis! Now I see. If there were hummingbirds in the Netherlands 4 meters not be enough for me as well!

Renze

Stellula calliope, Calliope Hummingbird, photographed near Big Bear Lake, San Bernardino Co., California, 25 June 2005.

[Swissboy]

Incredible! My 7x42 BGATP's are in focus from about 4 meters and you say you have to walk away with these bins in order to get your birds in focus, time and time again?... I can't recall my birding has ever been practised within 4 meters. And if someone/something would force me to it, I'm fairly certain I would quit.Renze de Vries

Renze, don't say you would not want to go to the tropical rain forests if you had an opportunity. In those conditions, your only chance for some birds might be if you have them at two or three meters. Otherwise they are hidden too much in the dense vegetation.

Also, you are probably young enough for your eyes to do some of the focussing for you. That allows to stay closer than the normal range given in the specs.

[zuiko]

I think people who use only one type of equipment from a manufacturer may miss the bigger picture when it comes to optical device manufacturers.

I use operating microscopes, loupes, binoculars and photographic lenses routinely. Only one company makes superlative optics in all those fields and that is Zeiss. I've used Leica operating microscopes, and Zeiss and it (the Zeiss) clearly eclipses all the others; same story with operating loupes - there just isn't a comparison with other makers.

For photography I use Canon, but that's mainly because of the camera preference - many people use adapters to use Zeiss lenses on Canon digital bodies with superlative results.

When you have a company that dominates high quality optics the way that Zeiss does, it's not unfair to say that if you went for a binocular from Zeiss then you would not be far off having the "best".

Others may disagree but I've used enough different Zeiss optical products to know for myself that they are the "best".

Regards.

[laservet]

When you have a company that dominates high quality optics the way that Zeiss does, it's not unfair to say that if you went for a binocular from Zeiss then you would not be far off having the "best".


I've used Leica and Zeiss medical optics and agree, they are without peer. I've used some Leica camera lenses that rival Zeiss. But Zeiss binoculars over the past few years have been disappointing, with the FL's being the first new line in some time that wasn't a step backwards from previous models optically, ergonomically, or both. Strap lugs that dig into one's hands, toy-like Diafuns, excessive CA coming to mind.

I get the impression that Leica takes a more conservative approach to innovation, with each new model bringing an incremental, not dramatic, improvement. Zeiss, OTOH, seems to take a more outside-the-box path, making some radical changes in optics and body design, with some successes and some dogs. Hopefully, Zeiss' foray into inexpensive (relatively) consumer optics like the Diafun will not be repeated.

I have binoculars from both manufacturers, and find each individual model has its strengths and weaknesses. Binocular preference is as subjective as spouse preference, so try before you buy! ;)

Regards,
Paul

[Swissboy]

I've used Leica and Zeiss medical optics and agree, they are without peer. I've used some Leica camera lenses that rival Zeiss. But Zeiss binoculars over the past few years have been disappointing, with the FL's being the first new line in some time that wasn't a step backwards from previous models optically, ergonomically, or both. Strap lugs that dig into one's hands, toy-like Diafuns, excessive CA coming to mind.

I get the impression that Leica takes a more conservative approach to innovation, with each new model bringing an incremental, not dramatic, improvement. Zeiss, OTOH, seems to take a more outside-the-box path, making some radical changes in optics and body design, with some successes and some dogs. Hopefully, Zeiss' foray into inexpensive (relatively) consumer optics like the Diafun will not be repeated.

I have binoculars from both manufacturers, and find each individual model has its strengths and weaknesses. Binocular preference is as subjective as spouse preference, so try before you buy! ;)

Regards,
Paul

I agree with your "try before you buy" attitude (in ALL respects mentioned). But I don't think those original Victories were a step back. Sure they are not optimal (we own a Victory I), but they are excellent. We actually preferred them at the time we bought them over both the Trinovid BN and the EL. The only major problem, the excessive flare under certain light conditions became apparent only much later, however. But I don't think it would have led to an alternative selection.