Ringing, Banding What's The Point!!!

[Steve]

What is it all about? An over Enthusiastic bunch Of people who want to get close to birds? does it really serve a purpose?
are the same birds caught week after week?
when they die in the wild who finds the ring? who reports it missing? A little hobby for a sunday morning? does Chaffinch ringed in plymouth, get reported in exeter? after its caught for the 40th time?


Discuss

[peter hayes]

What an agent provocateur you are Steve! I am sure we will have an indignant El Annie and others rushing to the defence of ringing ASAP. But you raise an important point. It seems to me that very few people understand how ringing works or what it is for.

I found Ian F's thread fascinating (he tried out ringing for the first time recently) but there are many questions unanswered, such as the value of this long term versus the undoubted distress it causes birds who fly head first into a net and are suddenly trapped. I'm sure we will get many responses to this.

[Andy Bright]

"Ringing, Banding What's The Point!!!"

Primarily to upset bird photographers :-)
You get that lovely shot of your bird in a totally natural habitat, then open your photo up on the monitor to find a lump of metal around your subjects leg!
Andy

[peter hayes]

I see your point Andy. How can you call your stuff art when there's a shiny, man made object ruining the piccy?!!!

[Steve]

How come so many ringers give up after a month or so, does the NOVELTY wear off?

I have yet to hear a Ringer Mumble more than three words!!
and ask one for information, you may as well ask the bird he's just stopped in mid flight, leaving its eyeballs balanced on its tail feathers.

[Surreybirder]

There must be a lot of birds ringed, judging by the fact that we not infrequently get them in our garden. I'm not too worried about the aesthetics, but I do wish I had some way of finding out the ring details (given that I'm not about to start trapping them).

[peter hayes]

Originally posted by Surreybirder
(given that I'm not about to start trapping them).

One question Surreybirder. Why?

[alanhill]

Could anyone tell me how much an average ring weighs? Although I can see that ringing has brought great benefits to the study of bird migration, and therefore to measures to assist in the protection of birds, what does it do for the individual bird? For example some small songbirds (particularly juveniles) must weigh around 10-20 gram only; what percentage of body weight is added by the ring? Would this then affect the bird's survival chances on a long migration, thus possibly distorting results of migration studies?
I am open-minded about this as I can see pros and cons for ringing.

Alan Hill

[Andrew]

I was interested in ringing a while back but what held me back was I thought it was simply an excuse to handle birds and 'play' with them. We all know how nice it is to stroke a cat, I think there are people who think like this about birds.

Don't get me wrong I know there are some genuinely concerned people who want to monitor bird movements for conservation purposes. Just look at the BTO Migration Atlas. This is a result of bird ringing and provides a powerful tool in supporting arguments for conservation between various countries and habitats. I just believe there are people who are volunteering for the wrong reasons and there should only be the sufficient amount of ringers for a certain area and it should not be a social event.

I was a bit worried at a recent local National History Society meeting where the Dormouse expert demonstrated in precise detail how to survey Dormice nestboxes to a large group of 'granny nature lovers'. I thought about how many of these people might see a Dormouse box and think 'ooh I know how to look in these, watch me' and mess things up for them.

My thinking is folk should only train to be ringers if they are asked to do so, if you want to know or see this in action ask to go along to a session like Ian did and not volunteer just to get a chance to get close to birds. If you wanna get close to birds go to a zoo!

[KCFoggin]

Not necessarily my view on the subject, actually I have no views on this at the moment, but, you asked and seeing how I research for a living, here are some answers.

"Banding allows the determination of the minimum length of time that an individual bird lives.
Without an individual marker, there would be no way to determine if the Cardinal that is outside your window is the same bird that you saw last year or not. With a bird band, if you catch that Cardinal today and band it, you will know if that one bird is caught again in the future.

It has been learned, for example, that it is not uncommon for individuals of some species to live 10 to 20 years or more in the wild. Small songbirds that we may think of as short-lived may live
a surprising length of time. There is a record of a hummingbird living as long as 12 years!
However, the average life span of the majority of the individuals is much shorter.

Banding and marking birds can also be used to estimate the numbers of birds in a population using a mark-recapture technique. Birds are marked in one time period, and then recaptured or resighted in a later time period. The number of birds marked in the first period and the ratio of marked to unmarked birds in the population in the second period allow the total population of birds to be estimated.

Banding data allows for the comparison of normal, wild banded birds with birds that may have had their survival altered by exposure to oil or other hazards. Survival and Productivity can be
studied by using a constant effort banding site.

Birds can be vectors of diseases which effect people, including encephalitis. Lyme disease and now West Nile disease. Sampling wild birds for serious disease helps determine the prevalence of the disease in the population. Banding allows for birds that have been sampled once to be avoided in the next sample--or to be resampled, depending on the study".

[helenh]

Originally posted by Andrew
I was interested in ringing a while back but what held me back was I thought it was simply an excuse to handle birds and 'play' with them. We all know how nice it is to stroke a cat, I think there are people who think like this about birds.

Don't get me wrong I know there are some genuinely concerned people who want to monitor bird movements for conservation purposes. Just look at the BTO Migration Atlas. This is a result of bird ringing and provides a powerful tool in supporting arguments for conservation between various countries and habitats. I just believe there are people who are volunteering for the wrong reasons and there should only be the sufficient amount of ringers for a certain area and it should not be a social event.

<snip>

My thinking is folk should only train to be ringers if they are asked to do so, if you want to know or see this in action ask to go along to a session like Ian did and not volunteer just to get a chance to get close to birds. If you wanna get close to birds go to a zoo!

It's a bit unfair to say that ringing shouldn't be a social event. If you're interested in ringing/banding and take the time to learn how to do it properly, then it's only natural that you'll have lots in common with like-minded souls. So you'll look forward to the next "event" as it will be an opportunity to catch up with your colleagues. It's not my thing (I'd be too terrified of hurting the bird) but I can see the scientific fascination ..... I've done something similar with whelks in the dim and distant past!

It's like saying birding shouldn't be a social event. That too can disturb birds - let's face it we've all met the birders who discuss their days exploits in loud voices in hides ... scaring off all comers (people and birds). Or the folks who crowd out a rarity in the rush to get a tick - or who disturb nesting birds etc.

The secret in both cases is responsible behaviour by the participants.

Helen

[Andrew]

I used a bad choice of wording there, if people want to meet up they do not need to go to a ringing session. The time spent on tone of these sessions should be used entirely for ringing to minimise bird captivity. I am not adverse to anyone going once or twice to learn about what happens.

Training should be done if you are serious enough to contribute to the studies of birds not as an excuse to get close to them.

It's like saying birding shouldn't be a social event. That too can disturb birds - let's face it we've all met the birders who discuss their days exploits in loud voices in hides ... scaring off all comers (people and birds). Or the folks who crowd out a rarity in the rush to get a tick - or who disturb nesting birds etc.

Like all walks of life there are elements that some parties do not favour and ringing is bound to have a few so you are supporting my earlier comments. Agreed?

:hippy:

[helenh]

Originally posted by Andrew
I used a bad choice of wording there, if people want to meet up they do not need to go to a ringing session. The time spent on tone of these sessions should be used entirely for ringing to minimise bird captivity. I am not adverse to anyone going once or twice to learn about what happens.

Training should be done if you are serious enough to contribute to the studies of birds not as an excuse to get close to them.

Like all walks of life there are elements that some parties do not favour and ringing is bound to have a few so you are supporting my earlier comments. Agreed?

:hippy:

Taking your points in order:

If you're suggesting that ringers get together and leave birds dangling in netting or trapped in boxes while they discuss the price of tinned peaches at Sainsburys or the latest blockbuster film .... then yep, I'd agree that's unacceptable. However I'd be very surprised if that was the norm (or even common). So I wouldn't penalise the many because of a few idiots.

The motive for ringing - well I don't particularly think it matters why someone got interested, so long as they perform the task professionally and responsibly. I can imagine a number of reasons for wanting to get involved; scientific curiousity, a desire to get closer to birds, a keen interest in conservation, wanting to see warblers at much closer quarters so the next time you see them at a distance you might stand a chance of identifying them (not that I'm paranoid about warblers ;)). Lots of reasons - including the less focussed "I'm just fascinated by it". So all in all I disagree with you here, I wouldn't want to judge a person's motivation - just their behaviour when engaging in ringing.

Helen

[El Annie]

I am not going to rise to the bait folks and get into a row - sorry!! Anyone really interested in the sience of ringing can find out all about it on the BTO website or by contacting them direct by e-mail with their questions.

That said there is just one thing that I feel needs setting staight and that is that you can't just 'start ringing'. To become a ringer you DO have to be invited.

The way it works is that you contact your local ringing group and ask if you can go along to observe, if after your introduction to ringing you want to pursue it you go along again and again and again............ always as an observer. Your trainer (who is registerd with the BTO and MUST be an A permit holder) will eventually allow you to handle birds and will closely monitor you. IF you still want to become a trainee then your trainer will decide whether or not to endorse your application for a trainee permit. Your trainer can have your permit withdrawn at any time and will do so if he/she is not happy with your handling/attitude etc.

It takes approx 2 yrs to move from a trainee permit to a C permit and another 2 yrs to move to an A permit, it is not just about putting a ring on a bird and having a cup of tea and a chat, it is challenging both physically and mentally there is much to learn and it must be done properly and with total concentration and committment.

If anyone out there knows of a ringer or group of ringers that they feel are not doing their job properly and professionally then please report them to the BTO so that they can be investigated.

Annie :)

BTW - I do it because the whole thing facinates me and because I love birds and want to be active in the conservation of them. I consider it an absolute privilage to be able to do this and would NEVER willingly or knowlingly hurt any wildlife.

[Surreybirder]

Originally posted by peter hayes
One question Surreybirder. Why?

I don't want to trap the birds I see with rings on (and I'm not a ringer) but I'd still like to be able to read the info on the ring. Probably a pipe dream.
If your question is: why do I want to read the info, my answer would be that, as someone has ringed them it would be nice to be able to make use of their work and find out some possibly useful info.
:cool:

[Chuck A Wulla]

Thank you all. I was aware of "ringing" and why, but had no idea who did it or how they got started. Nice to know.


Originally posted by helenh
It's not my thing (I'd be too terrified of hurting the bird) but I can see the scientific fascination ..... I've done something similar with whelks in the dim and distant past!

Helen

You did something similar to gastropods?

[helenh]

Originally posted by Chuck A Wulla
Thank you all. I was aware of "ringing" and why, but had no idea who did it or how they got started. Nice to know.

You did something similar to gastropods?

Hasn't everyone!;) Seriously - I did a whelk survey 10 years after the Torrey Canyon disaster, studying the effects of clean-up agents etc on various shore-life. We measured, weighed and tagged whelks.

Helen

[IanF]

Well said Annie :t:

One thing I realised straight away from my recent trip to Foxglove Covert ringing centre as a guest, is the dedication and professionalism. One of the first things I was told was that 'the birds always come first'. That proved to be true throughout the day as birds were released from the nets and their welfare constantly checked.

Yes there was an element of socialising among a group of individuals dedicated to the task in hand, but it in no way impeded the care and welfare of the birds. Every bird netted was checked for any health problems.

As to 'why ring birds ?' - well it's a silly question as the information gained from ringing about longevity, migration and range are pretty obvious. As Annie and others point out, the BTO website explains it all. It's the basis for a lot of scientific research into the welfare of birds.

Another thing I came to appreciate from my visit is that ringers aren't just 'birdwatchers', they are dedicated individuals involved in scientific research and go about it in a very scientific manner. No frivolity comes into it at any level as far as the birds are concerned. Some of them aren't infact birdwatchers, everything is geared toward the scientific research of birds - I certainly had my eyes opened in that respect.

I can understand why some individuals may 'give up after a month or two' as it is actually pretty hard work done for no recompense. It requires a tremendous amount of dedication to the job and an immense amount of commitment time wise.

I must admit that I thoroughly enjoyed the time I spent with the ringers and will probably take it up myself. From my point of view, yes it's great being able to get close to the birds, but more importantly to me is that it's actually helping in scientific research to improve the welfare of the birds for future years. The more information we have available the more accurately plans can be made to preserve ours bird species. It's a shame that more true 'birders' aren't more involved in this aspect of their hobby as it adds a totally new dimension to birdwatching.

I can empathise with the photo orientated comments, a ring doesn't look very aesthetic, but 'so what ?' - you can try for another photo on another bird. It's all part of the challenge. I certainly wouldn't knock ringing for the sake of a spoilt photo. The benefits far outweigh the negatives.

I can appreciate Steve's attempt to stimulate discussion, but to me it's a 'no brainer' discussion. The benefits of ringing are obvious. Apart from my visit to Foxglove I have frequently come across ringers and every one of them has been a mine of information. They are a very dedicated set of individuals who have had to work exceedingly hard putting in many hours of labour to gain a permit to ring birds on their own. Many also have to shell out hundreds of pounds for equipment .

[Andrew]

The intention of my comments is not to say stop ringing altogether or punish those who do a proper job of it which is a bit of a drastic counter comment. My "message" is simply leave ringing to those who are doing it for the sake of research or conservation. I should not be somthing to pass a Sunday afternoon with. If you want something to do for pleasure do something else, now there is nothing wrong with having some pleasure out of ringing. After all if you don't enjoy it you won't do a proper job. From my comments you will see I believe ringing is a vitally important necessity for many reasons. I would only consider training as a ringer if I was asked to do so or volunteers were asked for in a local publication or such. I believe if there are too many 'leisure' ringers at a session this could stress out the birds.

This is my final word, leave it to the experts and only train when asked to do so. If the bird clubs are short of ringers they will let their members know, I think there is no doubt aout the latter.

[Steve]

a "no brainer discussion " Absolute toffee!!! How much scientific
research can you do on a swallow?
1 it arrives in spring
2 it departs in Autumn
3 It Comes from and returns to Africa
4 if its lucky it will live 4 years
5 it will fly about 4000m return trip
6 it comes back to the same nest site.


You would of thought by now that some Whizz kid would look at the average of info on swallows caught and ringed, over say the last 20 years? and told us all we need to know?

Or do you need to catch a few more before the penny drops?:t:

[Andrew]

There is only one thing I can think of affecting patterns and that is Global warming. Movements and settlements could be shifted by changing climates.

[Andy Bright]

Originally posted by IanF


I can empathise with the photo orientated comments, a ring doesn't look very aesthetic, but 'so what ?' - you can try for another photo on another bird. It's all part of the challenge. I certainly wouldn't knock ringing for the sake of a spoilt photo. The benefits far outweigh the negatives.


Lighten up, it was a light-hearted comment .....note the 'smilie'
Andy

[IanF]

Don't worry Andy, no offence was taken. I apologise if I came across a bit strong, that wasn't my intention.

[peter hayes]

Originally posted by El Annie
Anyone really interested in the science of ringing can find out all about it on the BTO website or by contacting them direct by e-mail with their questions.

PLUS

To become a ringer you DO have to be invited.

That answer, if you don't mind me saying so, is elitist. The purpose of this thread is to enlighten BF members. To unravel the mysteries of ringing. To educate. To inform. If you think this work is so valuable, then why not argue your case.

To simply direct people to the BTO web site smacks of complacency. Why not let us hear you loud and proud, making the case for ringing?

Peter

[LMG]

I agree with everything El Annie and IanF have said so far. I have been ringing since last October and find the work so interesting and rewarding. Birds of the same species all look the same, so how can you tell where they go? Someone mentioned the BTO's Migration Atlas, it's brilliant. It gives loads of information, mainly in the form of maps, about most birds and shows how far they travel. We always find it exciting to know that one of 'our' birds has travelled to say, Yorkshire or Africa.

We also monitor weight, size, age, diseases etc, which is all useful information for explaining population trends. University students often use the data for carrying out surveys and projects. The more we know about birds the better, as we can help them. Why the decline in house sparrows for example?
Ringers are closely monitored and are very professional in the work they do. It takes several years to qualify, as there is so much to learn about each species, it's not just a matter of putting a ring on a bird - that's the easy bit!

[alanhill]

I'm really disappointed that with all the apparent ringers we've got out there no-one has yet told me what the weight of an average ring is - let's say one you would put an a bird like a swallow. Surely someone must know. Please!

Alan Hill

[Reader]

Well said Annie. I fully endorse all of your comments, and possibly more. I used to belong to a group that once a year used to ring Storm Petrels on an island north of the North Scottish coast. They funded the whole exercise themselves, i.e purchasing their own rings etc. Not only did we ring Stormie's but also Fulmars, Kittiwakes, Bonxies plus many other birds that were on the island. It was extremely hard work, as we had to ring through the dark hours (Stormie's don't come onto land in daylight) and then to carry on ringing through the day.

The info from all of this is fed into the BTO data base, if my memory serves me right, and gives a clear picture of life span plus the health of the birds (by weights and condition). If the birds had been previously ringed, where they have been before (and some Stormie's are long distanced and long lived birds).

We need these ringing groups to carry on as the data is very useful for all sorts of reasons.

Are birds decreasing in an area (ringing continually in the same area each year will throw any anomalies up)

Migration routes these birds take. Bird movement, does the Blackbird stay in one area or does it travel long distances (you might be suprised by the results).

All manner of information can be gleaned from ringers and, in my opinion, is a real benefit in gathering vital information about the birds that we love to watch.

[Andrew]

Really, I believe to see the value of ringing one must look at the BTo Migration Atals. I would dearly love to see one but alas I have other priorities for the £40 and they are coated in film in the book shop so I can't take a peek.

[El Annie]

There are a total of 23 different rings used made of various types of metal, below is a sample of a few:

AA ring - used on the smallest of birds, eg Goldcrest 0.04gms
(Goldcrest weighs about 5.0gms)
A ring - Blue Tit, Robin, Chaffinch etc 0.05 gms
B ring - Greenfinch, House Sparrow etc 0.07 gms
CC ring - Song Thrush, Redwing etc 0.09 gms
C ring - Blackbird, Fieldfare etc 0.14
D ring - Cuckoo, Green Woodpecker etc 0.30 gms

and so on up to the heaviest ring which is an Eagle sp and weighs 9.9 gms.

Hope this is helpful Alan :)

[El Annie]

To Peter

I don't want to argue anything Peter if that's OK, I'm right off soap boxes at the moment!! I don't think there's anything elitist about directing members to very interesting and educational websites, the BTO tell it much better than I can :)

[Reader]

Just a point in favour of why birds are rung.

At Bardsey today a Manx Shearwater was netted. If any of you know the answer to this please keep it yourselves. For those that don't know, how old do you think the bird was?

[alanhill]

Thank-you Annie, I might have known you would come up with the answer.
It seems that the ring put on a bird could be somewhere in the range 0.5 percent to 1.0 percent of the bird's bodyweight. I weigh 80 kg so that could mean a ring on my leg of 0.8 Kg. How would that affect me if I had to carry that for the rest of my life?
I'm not necessarily after sympathy for individual birds here, but more asking the question as to how it might affect bird migration. We know that long migration journeys are highly arduous and demanding and that, for example, the crossing of the Sahara is touch and go for many - are their survival chances affected by carrying a ring?
I did also think of the Ospreys that were fitted with radio transmitters that packed up when they got to Africa (the Gambia). So the birds were then lumbered with fairly heavy pieces of duff equipment.
Am I off my trolley? However I do think Steve has a very sound point on the necessity of widespread ringing.

Alan Hill

[El Annie]

Alan, did you follow the tracking of the Honey Buzzards? They were fitted with the satellite transmitters, I think you might find it very interesting....................

http://www.roydennis.org/Honey%20Buzzard%20Migration%20Map.htm

Annie :)

[Nick-on]

On the subject of moralty ringing, why is it OK to trap a migrating bird, have it struggle in a mist net, be terrified by somebody handling it (imagine being picked by a creature about a 1000 times bigger than you - terrified would be a gross understatement), clap it in irons before eventually letting it go. but it's not OK for those evil twitchers to come along and flush a bird so they can see it??? If I was a bird (which I'm not) I think I know which would cause the least distress.
As an aside I've only been a member 24 hours and already posted on my 2 pet hates - cats and ringing!!

[MikeMules]

Ringing and banding, if for valid scientific research (be it conservation, systematics, population ecology, behavioural research, migration studies etc...) is acceptable, provided it is performed in a professional and ethical manner, and under the auspices of the country's relevant authorities. Much valuable information about many species has been gathered as a result of banding.

A recent example comes from the latest issue of Emu, the journal of the RAOU (Royal Australian Ornithologist's Union) where a ringing project of brown falcons (F. berigora) has, over the course of several years, worked out that previously described colour morphs and subspecies are in fact plumages that indicate age and gender of individual falcons. Other recent Australian banding projects have helped map the migration pathways and wintering grounds of several migratory waders, and satellite tracking has been used to map out the fishing grounds of albatross spp. with implications for their protection from long-line fishing.

Nick-on's comparison of netting and ringing of migratory waders suffers from comparing an activity designed to further the understanding and conservation of birds with the gratification of birders to further their own lists. Also, the size comparison between a 20cm bird and a 200cm human is a size difference of 10 times, not two orders of magnitude larger.

On the other hand, without having read your post on cats, I reckon I probably agree with you on them. I've seen too many cats with parrots, wrens, thrushes etc... in their mouth to feel the slightest compassion for them.

[seb_seb]

You catch eagles in nets?

[Swift]

Come on lets have a bit of honesty from the ringers, hand on heart ,when you started ringing did you do it because the thought of handling/fondling the birds was good, or did you decide you personally woud be making new discoverys.......dont forget honestly.

[El Annie]

Spar, so far as I am concerned you are to be commended for everything that you do in your efforts to protect and conserve our birds. You are absolutely right (drunk or not!), we MUST make the effort and do what we can. If not then we might find one of these day's that there may be not be quite so many 'birds forever for everyone'!!!

[Andrew]

BIG UP the ringers and banders for doing a sterling job! Respec'!
:t:

[alanhill]

Annie, I've only just seen your post re the Honey Buzzards. Funnily enough I had made a post on the same subject yesterday under the thread started by Jeff Taylor (I think).
Yes it is very interesting, but forgive me if I slightly bang on at the point I made earlier in this thread about the weight of anything that's put on a bird. In the Honey Buzzard case the radio transmitter weighs 20 grams and the weight of the bird is 785 grams (their data) - so the radio weighs 2.5% of the bird's bodyweight. For me (80 Kg) that would mean carrying an attachment of 2.5 Kg. Now if I had to fly over the Sahara, the Med, Europe, and England, to get to Scotland I might be cursing that weight a bit. Seriously though, how do we know that the bird can comfortably cope with the additional burden? Or doesn't that matter "in the cause of science"?

Alan HIll

[alanhill]

Spar, I take your point, and I know that birds can put on an extra 50% of bodyweight before migration. However this weight and the prey items for raptors you quote are all turned into energy and fat for the bird's survival. It is a fact that many birds die on long migrations through exhaustion and lack of food, in which case carrying the dead weight of a radio transmitter can't help, or maybe even a ring for a small bird. I would like to find out what happened to the Ospreys from Rutland Water that had transmitters fitted and which subsequently packed up. Have these same Ospreys now returned, and if so are measures being taken to remove the duff radios?

Alan Hill

[Ashley beolens]

helenh

I've done something similar with whelks in the dim and distant past!

How do you ring a welk?3:-)

[Andrew]

01258 776 524

[helenh]

Originally posted by Ashley beolens
How do you ring a welk?3:-)

You put up a large, fine net which they can't see and wait for them to fly into it. Then holding them carefully you put the ring around their leg before releasing them to fly away ...........

.............. You don't get many whelks that way but it gives you much more time for relaxing with a cold beer. B (:

But seriously, we used a small adhesive marker which was uniquely numbered and fixed to the shell.

[Swift]

Originally posted by Swift
Come on lets have a bit of honesty from the ringers, hand on heart ,when you started ringing did you do it because the thought of handling/fondling the birds was good, or did you decide you personally woud be making new discoverys.......dont forget honestly. Do ringers not reply if the honest answer is not perhaps the one they would like to admit to ???

[helenh]

Originally posted by Swift
Do ringers not reply if the honest answer is not perhaps the one they would like to admit to ???

Maybe ringers don't reply because their motivation is very personal and, quite frankly, irrelevant. If you're suggesting that any of the members of BF who ring are unprofessional (ie conducting themsleves in a manner that is likely to damage a bird) then maybe you have a point. But discussion to date has sugested that they are serious professionals who have gone through a considerable period of training to become licensed to ring. And surely that's the important point. It's how they they conduct themselves that matters.

Helen

[Dave Sherry]

No one seems to have answered SurreyBirder's question.

When I actually get to see a ring in the wild will what I see make any sense to me? Can I find anything out about the bird with the ring simply from reading/interpreting what is on it? Is this information just for the chosen few?

Dave.

[Michael Frankis]

If you manage to read the ring number, send it to the BTO (use their website on the forum links page), they will tell you exactly where the bird was ringed, how far it has travelled, how old it is, and any other information they have. They are very good about that, though do bear in mind, it can take a while to get all the information to you, particularly if it involved a foreign ring.

Michael

[Malvolio]

All,

What's always puzzled me is why so few ringer/ banders use colour ring combinations as well as metal rings. The recovery rate of colour ringed birds is obviously going to be much higher than that of birds which just have metal rings - with colour rings the colour code can be seen in the field and reported, with metal rings the bird normally has to be recaptured or found dead before its details can be used.

MV

[rile's]

I was lucky enough to hang out with some banders one morning at an Ornithology lab in Big Sur, California. It was an amazing experience that every birder should try some time.

To get that close to birds and hold them in your hands was just incredible. And it is an amazing education on bird anatomy.
I saw no damage or injury to any birds, and it was a very, very proffesional atmosphere. They kept track of bird species but also age's, and condition of the birds on a variety of levels.

The point????
I thought about this a bit. The science and study of birds are important in there own rights.
But in my opinon the banding is very important because it helps set and argue public policy.
The banding station statistics will be the first thing to show changes, or reductions, in bird and species populations and give us quick ammunition to change the policy or actions that are causing these changes.
And in this age where, espeshially in the USA, the truth is almost impossible to find...... that is everything.

[Dawn Balmer]

For your interest a ring that would go on a Blue Tit, Great Tit, Blackcap etc sized bird (called an A ring) weighs 0.05 grams. A typical Blue Tit would weigh 10 grams. The ring is just 0.5% of the birds body weight. You would expect the body weight of a bird to fluctuate by more than 0.5% during a day just through feeding (and losing weight over night).

Regarding the number of ringers in the scheme, the BTO Ringing Scheme is constantly looking for new volunteers to start ringing. Long-term ringing projects such as the Constant Effort Sites Scheme welcome new sites across Britain and Ireland (particularly from south-west England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland where there are few ringers). If you are interested in taking up ringing please contact the Ringing Unit at BTO (ringing@bto.org)

Dawn

[alanhill]

I still wouldn't like to have a one-pound weight (0.05%) strapped to my leg if I was crossing the Sahara. I don't think it would improve my chances of survival.

Alan Hill

[Malvolio]

But it might ultimately improve the chances of the survival of the species!

MV

[phyllosc]

Nicely but Malvolio. It's probably already been said, but the point of ringing individual birds is gain a greater understanding of the whole species. We have learnt a great deal through ringing but it would be arogance to assume we now know everything.

With population changes due to the way we work the land and pressure through polution, global warming etc, it's now just as important as ever that we continue ringing birds. Politicians, and decision makers in multi national companies may not be swayed by sentimental opions about birds and wildlife. However, the type of scientific evidence that ringing can produce can lead to strong arguments for bird-friendly public policies and decision making.

Dave

[sprog]

"I still wouldn't like to have a one-pound weight (0.05%) strapped to my leg if I was crossing the Sahara. I don't think it would improve my chances of survival."

.. since in order to fuel your journey across the sahara you'll have strapped 20-odd packets of lard to your chest over the preceding month, I doubt you'll even notice it.

[Michael Frankis]

Originally posted by sprog
"I still wouldn't like to have a one-pound weight (0.05%) strapped to my leg if I was crossing the Sahara. I don't think it would improve my chances of survival."

.. since in order to fuel your journey across the sahara you'll have strapped 20-odd packets of lard to your chest over the preceding month, I doubt you'll even notice it.

Make that more like 140 (one-pound) packets of lard! Many small migrants double their weight for a long migration. The likes of a Garden Warbler weighs around 16-20g normally, but up to 35g just before migration. One ring extra isn't going to be detectable.

How do we know this? . . . Ringing ;)

Michael

PS Sprog - welcome to the birdforum! (I see this is your first post)

[alanhill]

I think you're cheating a bit here. I'm sure the lard wouldn't last long in the Sahara, so of course I wouldn't notice it.

Alan Hill

[Geraldine]

As someone who has attended, observed and assisted today for the first time with ringing birds at Sandwich Bay Observatory, I thought I would say how I felt about the experience. I am amazed at the amount of information experienced ringers can learn from holding a bird and examining it, and fascinated at the thought of this much information being forwarded to a national database.
I personally learned a huge amount by observing, and by being allowed to hold several of the birds. I found the experience of holding the birds a great privilege, but certainly wouldn’t want to do anything that would harm or traumatise a bird.
I will certainly go back, and continue to observe. I don’t think anyone who loves birds would undertake training as a ringer without giving it a huge amount of thought beforehand, and I can’t imagine anyone putting in that much time and dedication simply to hold birds for sentimental reasons.
At Sandwich, which I assume is fairly typical, we were accepted cautiously, even for the task of accompanying the ringers, carrying bags and helping with entering records, and at every stage of the process were aware that what was being done was being undertaken by people who had been trained very thoroughly. People who were not yet at that stage of competence were observed and accompanied at all times. We were told that we could go along again as observers. The ringers took great care to explain to us every detail of what they were doing, pointing out precisely how they held a bird to avoid damage to its legs, how they held a bird when lifting it from a bag, etc., whilst at the same time treating the birds they were handling with the utmost gentleness and respect.
I still have many questions that I need to answer for myself about ringing: how I feel about seeing birds caught in nets, about the intrusion into their lives, among many others. I will answer those for myself and then make my decision as to whether to proceed with training to be a ringer. I will listen to other people’s points of view. My main concern is for the well-being of the birds, coupled with an understanding of the huge contribution that the gathering of this data makes to our ongoing involvement with and commitment to future generations of birds, in this country and around the world.

[James Armstrong]

Well put Geraldine! I'll write up our SBBOT day soon. Just off to Dungeness for the morning with Dave G.
:flyaway:

james

[Elizabeth Bigg]

Originally posted by Andy Bright
"Ringing, Banding What's The Point!!!"

Primarily to upset bird photographers :-)
You get that lovely shot of your bird in a totally natural habitat, then open your photo up on the monitor to find a lump of metal around your subjects leg!
Andy


Then you can go to your photo editor, and remove the ring - or is that cheating?