Finds list

[Darrell Clegg]

Ok! so you've got your life list, county list, year list, site list, holiday list etc. How many people keep a finds list? - that is species they have gone out, found and identified themselves, not twitched or had shown to them.

It is great fun to do and can throw up a few surprises. For instance I have seen 22 Richard's Pipits in Britain but never found one. Conversely I've only seen 12 Tawny Pipits but have found 4.

Looking at my list today I see that I've never found a Honey Buzzard - that's all the incentive I need to get out there next month and scan the skies.

My finds list for Britain is 256 - which I'm quite happy with. It does include a few "forms" ie Pale-bellied Brent, Scandinavian Lesser Black-backed gull - but hey, it's my list right?

Have a go - it's addictive


Darrell

[RonClark28]

Hi Darrell

I have to be honest and say that I not entirely sure what you mean by this. I keep a life list, a year list and a list of what I see every time I go out birding. As its just Jan and myself, its just us two who ID every bird on that 'daily' list. If we aren't sure what it is, it dunna get put in.

But as you say, its your list and your method. There's enough of us to go round with with what ever lists we want to keep. I remember reading in oneof the birduing mags about people who keep lists of birds they see on telly to ... in several different forms, like wild-life programs, westerns, adventure films ... and it can get just a wee bit silly IMHO.

Ah well ... back to doing what I do best I supoose ... now where's that bottle of Old Hen ... ... ... ... ... ...

Ron

[Ashley beolens]

I keep a finds list as well, Its a far better list than one which includes the titched birds, I alwasy have a problem though, If you know a bird will be at a site, does it count as a find, for example, if you were to go to Titchwell and see bearded tit, is it a find or not? I know they are there but have to find them myself! My list is not yet at the 250 mark but its getting up there, another few years like last two years (Subalpine, Probable pechora and Ortolan, last year and Waxwing this) and I'll be well away.

[Andrew]

All birds are finds unless someone points them out to you, simple as that?

[Harry Hussey]

Hi Darrell,
I have also attempted to make out a self-found list,but have many problem birds(too many grey areas!).I'll send you a private message with the contentious birds(ID certain,but not sure if they count as finds!).Below 200 finds(185-190 odd),but we get fewer species here to start with,so I'm happy enough so far!
New self-finds this year include Little Ringed Plover.Have never found a Richard's Pipit,and have only seen one.Have yet to see a Tawny Pipit(wish the bird on Dursey last Thurs had stayed!).
HAVE found Red-necked Stint,5 Alpine Swifts,Hawfinch,Buff-B Sand,RB Fly,Rosefinch etc.
Think that I'll have to find my own Red-rumped Swallow:ANOTHER one found today,this time in Wexford,but only passed through.
VERY hard to twitch one here,jealous of the photos on the net of the recent Cheshire birds.
Harry

[Darrell Clegg]

If anyone wants to have a go look at this site http://www.osme.org/uk250/ and follow the link to the rules. It should answer both Harry and Ashley's questions

Darrell

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Darrell,

I'm on 254-ish, but that's using the BOU list; includes one Richard's Pipit (St Mary's Island, Northumbs., 16/10/99) though not Tawny Pipit. But I did find Northumberland's first ever Olive-backed Pipit (also St Mary's, way back in 1986), argualbly my best ever find (my only county first) tho' Fea's Petrel (Newbiggin) is probably a rarer find

Michael

[Steve Lister]

Surfbirds have a self found British list category on their Listers Page - obviously plenty of people, me included, value finding their own birds.

I have a county self-found list here in Leics/Rutland; currently 208, out of my total list of 238. Not a bad proportion.

Steve

[dennis]

Hi Darrel,

My list stands over 800. Until this thread I had not considered "found birds". I was on a guided trip to Ecuador during which I recorded 261 species of which I found about 20. Previously I had never been guided although birding pals have pointed out a few. I would guess my self-found and identified must be close to 500. Most of my birds come on vacations with my wife where I'm the only birder in sight. It certainly is more rewarding landing them on your own. Undoubtedly it is more educational as I tend to retain the ability to re-ID those species. I would be hard pressed to reconfirm some of those I saw in Ecuador.

dennis

[PaleKing]

I'm living in Scotland and most people up here call it a Purity List. In my opinion its the most important list that you have. For a bird to find its way onto your purity list you need to have found it or to have been "in on" the finding of a species. I reckon anything over about 250 for Britain puts you in the respectable end of purity listing.

[birdman]

Don't misunderstand this, as has previously been said, lists are personal things, and I acknowledge the right of anyone to make any kind of list.

But let me pose a few scenarios.

In a totally different thread, (where I was being equally "mischievous"), I pointed out that, except in some very rare circumstances, people generally do not accumulate knowledge or information from genuinely emprical data.

Perhaps I have misunderstood the "rules" of the Finds List.

Darrell, you say your finds list stands at 256 (well done, BTW, my LIFE list is only 159!!!), but did you genuinely FIND all of those.

I'm sure there is nothing wrong with the integrity of your list, but this is where my lack of understanding comes in.

Let's use Izzy the Ibis as an example.

Although he seems to have moved on, I know from this Forum that Izzy has spent a considerable amount of time at Bowling Green Marsh.

So, if I go to BGM and see him - then I take it that's not a "find", because through BF, I have been previously informed of his whereabouts.

But, if I were to go to the next estuary along (complete with the knowledge that he is at BGM) and simple wait until he pops in, does that make him a "find" at the new location.

Also, as it happens, I don't actually know where BGM is, so if I were to stumble across it by accident and see Izzy, can I count him as a "find" - even if it subsequently proven that I saw him at BGM, but I genuinely did not utilise that previous knowledge to find him.

Now those scenarios are for a specific individual bird.

What about, say, Avocet. If I were to say there are Avocet at such and such a location, then again, by the "rules" I take it that you could not claim that as a find.

But you know the habitat of Avocet, you know the likely distribution of Avocet both by geography and by season - so once again, can you install yourself at a suitable location, and wait for a flock to appear - and claim a find?

I use Avocet simply as they are not ten a penny, but they are easy enough to find if you know where to look. Clearly, if you saw one on top of Ben Nevis - that would seem like a find, but then it is wrong habitat, and you wouldn't expect to see one there.

Lastly, what about Blackbird.

I guess they are as common in Cornwall as they are in most places in the UK.

If you see one in you Garden, is it a find? Obviously no-one has told you there's a Blackbird, but everyone knows you get Blackbirds in you garden.

I'm not trying suggest you are wrong, or anything... I'm just curious!

(I'm not even gonna ask about being lucky enough to visit a whole new continent, and deciding whether or not everything is a find!!!)

[Surreybirder]

Just for interest I tried to work out my 'find' list (for UK). It's about 224 though I have to admit I did it in a rush. Some of the birds go back 20+ years and it's not always easy to remember the exact circumstances. As others have indicated there are grey areas. For example, I've not counted pomarine skua but I remember watching a passage of them at St Ives. People were calling out, 'Arctic skua, bonxie, pomarine skua' as they passed but I may have picked one of them up myself!
I didn't count Cirl bunting because I went to a known stretch of coastline in Cornwall for them (this was a long time ago). But from what I gather of the UK 250 club rules I can count it.
But I 'm not too fussed to be honest.
The only rarities I've claimed are ferruginous duck (well it was then) and whiskered tern.
One or two species might be considered dodgy--ruddy shelduck (3 seen flying over Frodsham Marshes, Cheshire) and red-crested pochard.
If I counted my world self-found list it would be rather longer (but I am not that keen).

[Jane Turner]

Next to my local patch list, my found list is the one I take most interet in.

288 in the UK (BOU)

I have a few problems with he UK 250 club definition genuine surprise...I've never been surprised by eg Ptarmigan.... I'm up a big mountain in Cairngorm...oh look there is a Ptarmigan...though the ones on the cliff top at Cape Wrath are a little unexpected.


I've added three in the last 5 years (WR Sand, White-winged BT and rather amazingly Wryneck) 300 in my lifetime looks beyond me unless I move to Shetland!

I've never found a Honey buzz either.

[william j clive]

I have recently reached the 'holy grail' target of 250 finds with a Long-eared Owl I called in flight, and it then alighted on a tussock about 70 yards away and afforded excellent views to all present. It was an enjoyable moment and a double celebration because it was also the 250th species I have seen in Wales this year. Like Jane, I very much doubt whether I can reach 300 finds, as I am a bit long in the tooth! Since then I have added two species, Waxwing and Hume's Warbler to the yearlist, both found by others.

[Tim Allwood]

this is the only one that really matters

of all the birds on my life list (world) 99 % are self-found

and Jane you're right, 300 in the UK is bloody hard - don't know if I'll ever make that!

[Jane Turner]

As I suggested.. 5 consecutive late Mays and Sept-Oct on eg Out Skerries would probably sort it.

[Andrew Whitehouse]

I tried to work this out recently and I reckoned I was pretty much at 250 found in the UK, although like anyone else's found list there may be a few grey areas there. I do most birding on my own though, so I suppose that makes it easier to work out. I think 250 found is okay given a British list that has only just scraped past 300. Pretty much everything I've ever seen abroad has been self found too. On the Richard's Pipit tip - I've only ever seen 3 in the UK but I found them all!

[Tim Allwood]

that's a good strike rate Fifey

wonder how many other folk can boast over 80% self found....

[Jane Turner]

I can scrape in at 80.5% If I am generous with myself on the "what consitute self-found/genuine surprise." Things like Breckland Stone Curlew....

77% if I am absolutely strict with the guidelines

[Brian Stone]

Sounds like we are around the same sort of mark Fifebirder. I don't twitch much at all now and only ever went relatively short distances in any case. My UK lists (BOU) are on 319 and 249 so 78%.

Set myself the target of maximizing my local finds this year. Out of a possible 204 I have so far seen 175 and found 159 of them - a find rate of 91% (78% of the total for the area).

The grey areas are a bit tricky. We had a White Stork wandering around for a few weeks this year. I saw it in the original area it was found but a few days later saw it flying over Peterborough Town Centre some distance away from that area. I was genuinely surprised, didn't know what it was at first, had to stop to identify it and then to identify it was the same individual (by some missing primaries). Is that a find?

[Jane Turner]

I'd definitely give you that one Brian.

In my "loose" list I gave myself a Bonapartes Gull in the Mersey... I was hoping that one of the Seaforth birds might come into the river and bathe and be identifiable from the far bank. One did, so it was hardly a surprise... I did get it officially accepted for Cheshire though...

The Ross' Gull dind't though. Bah

[Michael Frankis]

The grey areas are a bit tricky. We had a White Stork wandering around for a few weeks this year. I saw it in the original area it was found but a few days later saw it flying over Peterborough Town Centre some distance away from that area. I was genuinely surprised, didn't know what it was at first, had to stop to identify it and then to identify it was the same individual (by some missing primaries). Is that a find?
No problem over counting that as a find as to it being unexpected - the difficulty is, which zoo did it come from?

:king:

[Brian Stone]

Unfortunately I have a slightly different view on what constitutes a find to most other local birders around here. The Stork was not considered to be a find, but other sightings I think don't qualify have been. For example, say I went to look at some Smew. Three had been reported but there were four there when I looked. Most around here would count the extra one as a find. Personally I reckon I went to twitch Smew and saw Smew. It didn't feel like a find so I don't count it as such. Would you?

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Brian,

I've got a similar one from up here - went to twitch a flock of 7 Dotterel. When I got there, there were 21. Can I count the extra 14 as finds . . . ?

If I hadn't twitched the 7, I wouldn't have found the 14; but equally, if I hadn't twitched the 7, the 14 might never have been found or seen by anyone. And it also came as a genuine surprise to find so many (quite a shock, actually!; it was a county record flock too). Tricky!

At least the Smew and Dotterel are wild ;)

Michael

[Jane Turner]

Hi Brian,

I've got a similar one from up here - went to twitch a flock of 7 Dotterel. When I got there, there were 21. Can I count the extra 14 as finds . . . ?

If I hadn't twitched the 7, I wouldn't have found the 14; but equally, if I hadn't twitched the 7, the 14 might never have been found or seen by anyone. And it also came as a genuine surprise to find so many (quite a shock, actually!; it was a county record flock too). Tricky!

At least the Smew and Dotterel are wild ;)

Michael


What about the Dotterel Breeding Farm on the Cheviots. I believe they make delicious pies!

[Brian Stone]

I've got a similar one from up here - went to twitch a flock of 7 Dotterel. When I got there, there were 21. Can I count the extra 14 as finds . . . ?

Dotterel! This has to be my best chance of 250th UK find. Tried really hard this spring but someone else got to the local flock first. Its a more extreme example I admit but personally I still wouldn't be happy with the 14 being a find. Not going to complain if you want to count it though.

At least the Smew and Dotterel are wild ;)

Still not rising to it ;)

[Harry Hussey]

Hi Brian and Michael,
I'd personally count the likes of those Smew and Dotterel as finds:went to see a Wood Sandpiper this year for my year list,and found that there was a second bird with it!Count it as a find(had never found the species before).
New finds this year:Little Ringed Plover,Golden Oriole,Wood Sandpiper,Semi-palmated Sandpiper,Wryneck and Pallas's Warbler(also intermedius LBB,but that doesn't count!)
Harry H

[Brian Stone]

Like I said most around here would agree with you Harry. The Wood Sand example is a bit different and I might have considered this a find myself. In the other examples we went to see a flock of birds and just got a different count. It probably felt like more of a find locating a second Wood Sand. I guess in this area more than most your list is your own.

[Charles Harper]

Read through the rules: what are 'A' and 'C' species? Like most of the other non-Brits, afraid I cannot see the point of maintaining a discrete Finder's List, since almost everything I see I find; hotlines and co-birders are almost non-existent.

[Darrell Clegg]

Hi Charles

The British List is made up of a number of categories. If I remember correctly, category A is a bird seen wild in England, Scotland or Wales (Harry can say whether N. Ireland is excluded).

Category B is a bird seen wild but not since the advent of the British Birds Rarities committee in 195? This list currently stands at something like 13 species and includes goodies such as Great Black-headed Gull. Category C are birds which have been introduced and are now living in wild and self-sustaining populations, ie Little Owl, Pheasant. Birds can be in both Category A and C eg Canada Goose where the bulk of the population is descended from introduced stock, but occasional 'wild' birds turn up - usually in flocks of Pink-footed or Greenland White-fronted Geese. Category D is a pending list, for those birds the Rarities Committee are not sure about ie whether it is a wild bird or an escape. Birds in this category include Red-headed Bunting, Mugimaki Flycatcher, and Lazuli Bunting (I saw that one!)
There used to be a Category E for birds seen at sea in British waters, but I'm not sure if that has been scrapped - no doubt someone with the information to hand will supply it.

Darrell

[Michael Frankis]

what are 'A' and 'C' species?
Hi Charles,

A, B, C, D, E are categories of birds on official national bird lists

A species are native species that got there of their own accord

C species are feral introduced birds - not sure if Japan has any, but birds like European Starling and House Sparrow in North America.

B species are wild species, but ones where there hasn't been any records since 1950.

D species are 'D for doubtful' - species where it isn't certain if they are wild, or jumped out of a cage.

E species, 'E for escape', are definite escapes, suppose you saw a Budgerigar in Yokohama, it couldn't possibly have made its own way from OZ, so has to be out of a cage.

Michael

[Michael Frankis]

There used to be a Category E for birds seen at sea in British waters, but I'm not sure if that has been scrapped
Hi Darrell,

Yep, long ago - now, birds in national waters go straight on to category A (unless they're escapes!).

Michael

[Michael Frankis]

Category B is a bird seen wild but not since the advent of the British Birds Rarities committee in 195?It used to be 'more than 50 years ago', then it was (for Britain alone) changed to the start of the BBRC (1957), but then when the recording categories were made international about 5 years ago, it was decided to set it in stone at 1 January 1950 for everyone. Since then the BBRC have been busy reviewing all the records 1950-1956.

Michael

[sparrowbirder]

Darrell, must be great living in a part of the world where so much stuff turns up, and the next rarity is around the corner!! Cant believe ive only seen 2 richards and one tawny pipit,and in 20 years of birding have only found 2 decent rarities,things really are "grim up north"

[Jane Turner]

It may be grim up north(west) . but when you do find something its worth so much more to you...

A Yellow-browed here is an Arctic Warbler on the east coast

An Arctic Warbler is worth a Two-barred Greenish

You Richard's Pipits are a rare as Blyth's etc etc.

You just have to adjust your expectations.

[Darrell Clegg]

Sparrowbirder, Jane is right when she says you have to adjust your expectations. A Waxwing down here would cause a major twitch. Rough-legged Buzzard are rarer than hens teeth, and as for Twite...!

Darrell

[sparrowbirder]

Problem is,I spend so much time on this forum these days dont have time for birding!!

[StevieEvans]

I have 296 on my UK list
of these 262 in my home county
with 243 being self found.
S

[Michael Frankis]

Problem is,I spend so much time on this forum these days dont have time for birding!!
TOO RIGHT !!!

ME TOO! :D

[Harry Hussey]

Hi Darrell,
"A Waxwing down here would cause a major twitch. Rough-legged Buzzard are rarer than hens teeth, and as for Twite...!"
Know well what you mean:twitched Waxwing back in 1996(first twitchable birds in the county since the '60's,none since!),has never been a Rough-legged Buzzard available down here(2-3 county records),and still need Twite for my county list(have been a few recent records,mostly in autumn,but few have stayed around).
Also,Eider is a good local bird(common resident further north in Ireland),Tree Sparrow is very rare(formerly bred at the Old Head of Kinsale,now probably extinct in the county?I've never seen one here.)
As I've said before,Waxwing is much rarer here than stuff like Pallas's Warbler,Red-eyed Vireo,Subalpine Warbler etc(probably have been more individual birds recorded,but with much longer gaps between occurrences).
Harry H

[Bluetail]

The other day, on another thread, I mentioned the ex-warden at Spurn who gave me the low-down on the infamous Tengmalm's Owl. At the same time he told me that, even though his life list was still less than 400, his own finds list was 340. I don't doubt him either.

Jason

[Charles Harper]

Hi Michael, Darrell and all,

Sorry to be lax in getting back here. I wouldn't want there to be any gaps in your knowledge, Michael, so let me say that our feral species in Japan include of course the ubiquitous Rock Dove (or what you may call 'em), the Collared Dove (decaocto, introduced in the 18th/19th C.), Mute Swan, Ring-necked Pheasant, and Chinese Bamboo Partridge. As well, there are breeding Budgerigar and Rose-ringed Parrakeet populations in metro areas (and I would guess some other psittacids as well), and down south Okinawa-way there are half-a-dozen waxbill species merrily reproducing; meanwhile I have personally recorded a steady increase in the Crested Mynah population of Yokohama since 1990.

Which of these would qualify for your feral list, I do not know-- I can't recall having read anything definitive on the status of all of our introduced/escaped species.

[David Ball]

The UK250 Club British self-found list website sadly seems to be defunct, and as Google found quite a few references to it here, I decided to re-activate this thread.

A friend was talking about trying to get Beds birders competing for a Beds self-found year-list next year, probably on the basis that it would more productive than everyone doing the usual year-listing thing of running round ticking everyone else’s birds. Obviously we would need to set up some rules, and I thought the UK250 rules for self-finding were pretty sensible and would make a good basis to start from.

Unfortunately with the website gone they’re no longer available on-line. I thought I might have saved a copy but if so can’t find it – has anyone out there got a copy?

Incidentally, loved Jane Turner’s comment in an earlier message about ‘Genuine Surprise’ – ‘You’re up a big mountain in Cairngorm – Oh, there’s a Ptarmigan – what a surprise!’. But all you can do though is look for a bird in the right habitat and in its range – you could equally say ‘Here I am walking down a lane in Bedfordshire with nice thorny hedges – oh look, a Common Whitethroat, how surprising!’. It’s just that the range/habo combo is a bit limited for some species! When I first saw Ptarmigan up Cairngorm I actually was surprised, but just at how easy they were – I thought I’d have to walk miles and nearly tripped over one a couple of hundred yards from the ski-lift!

[Brian Stone]

Go for the "Shock and Awe" method every time. If I went looking for Ptarmigan in the right habitat and found one, it would still be in that category (especially as I have dipped doing just that :( ). For me if it ain't twitched its on the list.

As a local recorder I quite like this idea as more stuff get found and reported. Using the percentage self found could even deter twitching for year listing purposes!

[Birdspotter]

Too many grey areas in this type of list for me im afraid.
I bird every weekend with my friends so when one of us finds a good bird can we all count it as a find ?
i recently counted up my find list and was very strict counting birds that I found personaly. I also allowed no splits that the BOU had not sanctioned.
My strict list was 232, with my buddies list 248.
The problem also for me was not remembering the likes of Paddyfield Warblers and Rustic Buntings that I have found but the likes of Mandarin Ducks and Black Necked Grebes, I really cant remember if I found some of these birds that I have seen over the years.

[Grampy Bustard]

My own self found list is 275, which does not include the Scottish stuff like breeding Dotterel or Ptarmigan, or Staffs Black Grouse, or similar stuff. I do include Avocet (one amongst gulls on a Somerset Res, and 20 in a flooded field inland in Dorset), Golden Oriole and Honey Buzzard well away from breeding areas, a singing Cirl Bunting in Somerset at a migration watchpoint when only one breeding pair left etc etc. Virtually all the self founds are in the West Country, and I don't do Scillies or other major hotspots.
Can't beat local patch watching....it's cheaper and even a commonish bird can give a thrill.

[Hotspur]

109/134 so over 80% which isnt too bad for a rank amateur

[Darren Oakley-Martin]

Hi all,

Perhaps this could be a challenge for BF Members for next year along the lines of the highest percentages of birds seen that are personal finds.

Would need rules though. Anyone volunteering?

Just totted mine up. 145 of 161 are personal finds. 90%. V.pleased.

Regards,

[very boring banned member]

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=21870

[Rhion]

246 self-found in Wales. For the UK not quite sure but probably another 30.
World - not the foggiest really.

[James Blake]

Hi all,

Perhaps this could be a challenge for BF Members for next year along the lines of the highest percentages of birds seen that are personal finds.

Would need rules though.

Hi Darren

I agree that it would be great to encourage bird finding and to share stories, but I'm wondering if a competition is really feasible given that the rules would be so hard to agree on. Maybe a forum or a thread called "My finds" instead?

But prove me wrong! Come up with those rules!

regards
James

[Jane Turner]

Since the thread is alive again I have made it to 280... with Honey Buzz over the house and a Cheshire Nightjar that didn't just surprised me.. it gave me palpitations... and I though I'm not sure how many species I have seen this year... only one - a Green Winged Teal wasn't self found!

[Darren Oakley-Martin]

Hi James,

Sometimes in this bleedin' forum it's difficult to agree what day of week it is!

I think we should nominate someone to come up with a definitive set of rules and if others don't like it, well stuff 'em!

SimonC's 'How's your 2004 List Going' is great, but the odds are heavily stacked in favour of twitchers, (and i've nothing against you guys!) and all it is is a list of numbers with birds names next to them. No offence Si!

So a 'Birds found personally as a percentage of birds seen' challenge/ thread would level the playing field somewhat and as you say, encourage people to share the stories about their more memorable discoveries!

I nominate Jane Turner and SimonC for rulemaking.

Regards,



Hi Darren

I agree that it would be great to encourage bird finding and to share stories, but I'm wondering if a competition is really feasible given that the rules would be so hard to agree on. Maybe a forum or a thread called "My finds" instead?

But prove me wrong! Come up with those rules!

regards
James

[Jane Turner]

I nominate Jane Turner and SimonC for rulemaking.

Regards,

So only birds seen from you bedroom window while listening to London Calling should count.... ;)

[Darren Oakley-Martin]

At least I own it i guess.

[Jane Turner]

I actually have a slightly different idea.... how about a not-twitched year list....

Rules simple.. anything you find yourself is included... but if the bird was known to be there previously it doesn't count.

eg. You go to Spurn the day after a Lesser Grey Shrike was seen... the Shrike doesn't count, but the Red-throated Pipit found by someone else while you were there does....

[Darren Oakley-Martin]

I actually have a slightly different idea.... how about a not-twitched year list....

Rules simple.. anything you find yourself is included... but if the bird was known to be there previously it doesn't count.

eg. You go to Spurn the day after a Lesser Grey Shrike was seen... the Shrike doesn't count, but the Red-throated Pipit found by someone else while you were there does....
Can't agree Jane. The RTP shouldn't count. This is self-found. That's still relying on 2nd hand info!

Yours, the Purist.

[Jane Turner]

Not-twitched requires predictive skills... which should be rewarded!

well it was just an idea....

[Darren Oakley-Martin]

I see your point Jane and stand corrected. My apologies.

If birders go to a site, we can't be expected to not ask if anything is about!

So, would you be prepared to prepare some definitive rules for the 2005 Challenge Jane?

Regards,

[Jane Turner]

I see your point Jane and stand corrected. My apologies.

If birders go to a site, we can't be expected to not ask if anything is about!

So, would you be prepared to prepare some definitive rules for the 2005 Challenge Jane?

Regards,

What is it worth ;)

[Darren Oakley-Martin]

I promise I won't mention Kate Bush again, and I'll add you to my christmas card list.;)

Deal?

What is it worth ;)

[Jane Turner]

Deal...

Its just the hair length and colour... see...no resemblance at all here... I was watching a Masked Shrike at the time...

[Darren Oakley-Martin]

Good stuff Jane! Ill leave it you..............

Nice pic BTW! You're right, it must have been hair length/ the light!;)

[CJW]

My Manx list is 230 of which I have self-found 213 - 92.6%

[Darren Oakley-Martin]

Stunning Chris! Shall we start a UK90% finds Club?;)

My Manx list is 230 of which I have self-found 213 - 92.6%

[CJW]

Stunning Chris! Shall we start a UK90% finds Club?;)
Only if you wanted to discount the IOM ;)

[Grousemore]

My Manx list is 230 of which I have self-found 213 - 92.6%

My manx list is 89 of which I have self-found 1 ... 1.12%

[Rhion]

My manx list is 89 of which I have self-found 1 ... 1.12%

My Manx list is 42, of which self found 42 - 100%. Bingo! What do I win? ;)

[Grousemore]

My Manx list is 42, of which self found 42 - 100%. Bingo! What do I win? ;)

You win an all-expenses-paid days birding with the legendary CJW.

[Birdspotter]

My Manx list is 0, -100% because i've never been. ;)

[Jane Turner]

My Manx list is 0, -100% because i've never been. ;)

Is that mathematically correct?

[David Ball]

My Manx list is 230 of which I have self-found 213 - 92.6%
Impressive. I count 205 on my Beds self-found list (strictly BOU, so excluding Yellow-legged Gull which we've tended to count hereabouts), out of a total of 246, so only 83.3%. Being one of the top few Beds listers, I do intensively twitch anything which is a county tick - e.g. about 8 hours trying to re-locate our first (yup, really) twitchable Yellow-browed a few weeks ago, which I did eventually see, and a similar amount of time chasing a two-day old report of Shorelark, which turned out to be genuine (good photo, and only the third county record, in a rape field!), but the bird had probably only been present briefly. Nationally I don't add that many self-finds, though I am shading 250 - retiring to Scilly (or Barra if I can't afford the property!) might improve things.

However, I'm quite pleased that the self-found 205 is 74.0% of all 277 species which have occurred in the county since 1950. Obviously, though, it helps in finding a high percentage of your area's total Category A list if you bird for a long time in a small, crappy inland county. (Still, someone has to do it ;) )

That discussion has turned to setting up rules for self-finding suggests no-one here has access to the UK250 ones anymore :C

[Jane Turner]

we do... just think its more appropriate to have our own for 2005....

[Jane Turner]

My Manx list is 230 of which I have self-found 213 - 92.6%

Oh Chris.. you just beat me.. Cheshire list 289.... self-found 264..... 91.35% Found in the process of totting it up that I had wrongly credited myself with a Cheshire Marsh Sand! Interstingly its mostly waders from Frodsham and plassie ducks, Herons and American Sparrows in other people's gardens that I didn't find!

American Wigeon* Green-winged Teal, Great Bittern, Black-crowned Night Heron*, Great Egret* Red Kite Montagu’s Harrier Black-winged Stilt* Pied Avocet, Collared Pratincole* Baird’s Sandpiper* Stilt Sandpiper* Buff-breasted Sandpiper Long-billed Dowitcher* Upland Sandpiper* Lesser Yellowlegs* Wilson’s Phalarope* Long-eared Owl Greater Short-toed Lark Aquatic Warbler Great Reed Warbler* Asian Desert Warbler* White-throated Sparrow* Dark-eyed Junco* Little Bunting

This is UK 250 club rules too.. I've seen plenty of Long-eared Owls without being pointed at one! Close to known breeding sites on bird races!

[Birdspotter]

Is that mathematically correct?

Probably not as I spent all my school years out birding, with the numbers in flocks the closest I had to maths. ;)

[Birdspotter]

[QUOTE=David Ball]. Nationally I don't add that many self-finds, though I am shading 250 - retiring to Scilly (or Barra if I can't afford the property!) might improve things.

Hi David,
Believe me you would enjoy the lifestyle more on Barra than Scilly.
For one you wouldnt be invaded every autumn by other birders as long as you dont mind the six autumn regulars sharing in your glory. B (:

[James Blake]

I'd be interested in opinions as to whether these two birds would count as self-found:

(1) saw a great grey shrike, no-one else around. Then realised I had a vague recollection of one being mentioned on Birdguides in the locality. Checked when I got home and one had indeed been reported, two days previously.

(2) determined to finally get a decent look at a Cetti's, set off to a well-known area for them (Strumpshaw Fen) at the time of year I reckoned they'd be most visible. Eventually got to watch one for an hour in an elder bush. Again, no-one else around.

I suspect (2) might not conform to the letter of the law, but I reckon it was certainly in the spirit - using patience and a little know-how to get close to a bird.

I definitely like the idea of having a competition for the percentage of self-found birds, rather than the number.

regards
James

[David Ball]

Believe me you would enjoy the lifestyle more on Barra than Scilly.
For one you wouldnt be invaded every autumn by other birders as long as you dont mind the six autumn regulars sharing in your glory. B (:
Just a bit miffed that I've been telling people for years that Barra should be a good place in autumn (between typical Fair Isle and scilly dates) and never persuaded anyone else to go with me. (Can't get away for any length of time nowadays due to an elderly dad.)

Still, hats off to you guys for getting off your bottoms and actually going there, and good luck for future years. Mightn't it be just a bit remote to actually live on though? Scilly does have a nice climate, and I don't think the crowds there are as bad as they used to be...

[Birdspotter]

Just a bit miffed that I've been telling people for years that Barra should be a good place in autumn (between typical Fair Isle and scilly dates) and never persuaded anyone else to go with me. (Can't get away for any length of time nowadays due to an elderly dad.)

Still, hats off to you guys for getting off your bottoms and actually going there, and good luck for future years. Mightn't it be just a bit remote to actually live on though? Scilly does have a nice climate, and I don't think the crowds there are as bad as they used to be...

Hi David,
Part of the decision to try Barra was so as not to be a member of the flock.
Yes Scilly does have a nice climate but the Western Isles can also be bathed in sunshine as its also on the Gulf stream,witnessed by our BQ evening in Sept 2002.
As far as Scilly or Fair Isle is concerned your chances are slim if you want to find your own birds there however.
From the top of my head (without trying to blow our own trumpets ) in 3 trips we have added 4 firsts and 2 seconds to the Hebs list that says it all really.
As for a bit remote !,A daily service(except Sun)flying to Glasgow,daily Ferry from Oban and regular ferries running to the Uists.
If thats remote i'd hate to think what your local high street looks like ;)
Hopefully other birders have sat up and took note, picked up a map then choose a good looking migration spot then have had the balls to bird it, because take it from me when you find the first good bird there's no beating that buzz :bounce: .

[Kev Rylands]

So no one came up for 2005 rules then!

Answering James, bird number 2 the Cetti's warbler use of a little know how if other than weather or habitat related I reckon thats a twitch (if in a loose sense of the word) as is Avocet at Minismere or Stone Curlew at Weeting.

Visiting a known site shouldn't count so no to Ptarmigan at the summit of Cairngorm but yes if in found elsewhere in the Grampians

As for the shrike I'd lean towards no, cannot rule out that your subconscious lead you to the bird!!