Where to buy binoculars (not B&H).

[Otto McDiesel]

I reccomend that you buy binoculars in a store, so that you can have a look at them.
If that is not possible, get them from Eagle Optics, by far the best place to shop online for optics.
Do not, however, buy from B&H. They are not knowledgeable, they have no idea what they are selling, they are very slow to refund, and are plain arogant. Same goes for any stuff with them, electronics photo, and so on. I am mad.

[richt]

(If that is not possible, get them from Eagle Optics, by far the best place to shop online for optics.)

Hi Otto

I quite agree with the Eagle Optics recommendation i purchased my Nikon E11's this year through them when i holidayed in Florida and the chap i dealt with was very knowledgeable about the product he also checked the pair that they sent as he was aware i would return to the UK shortly after purchase
The prices are very competitive and most importantly imho they are reputable
Sorry to hear you may have had some less than wonderful dealing with another retailer

Richard

[Otto McDiesel]

Yep, mad is an understatement. I feel i could cut a Volkswagen to bits with my pocket knife. My wife and my daughter are not going to get a pair of binoculars and a TV, respectively, for Christmas, because the B&H staff gave me false information over the phone when i placed the order, and now they take 2 weeks to refund, so my money is blocked.

[elkcub]

Otto et al,

This is not exactly on topic, but I'd like to take this opportunity to include a 2002 email from a very reputable dealer responding to my inquiry about returning a vintage knife if I didn't like it. The item in question is now in my collection, but the email is also tacked to the wall as a constant reminded. I don't think he'd mind me posting it.

Ed

Hi Edward,

Just so you know, anything you purchase via the mail (FedEx, UPS, etc.)
Federal law mandates that you have a 3 business days to look at the product.
Also, that you can return it for any reason if you are unhappy with it.

Also, if you ever get a company that wants to charge you a "restocking fee".
Report them directly to the Postal Inspectors and Better Business Bureau.
This is an illegal practice.

At worse you are liable for the shipping/handling costs to you and back to
the company should you return an item.

So the long answer to your question is, Yes.

Best Regards,

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com

[zuiko]

Hi Otto,

B&H is affectionately known as "Beards & Hats" around New York but they are a camera shop and don't really specialise in binoculars. It's OK if you know exactly what you want and have seen the item locally but you have to be sure it's in stock and their website isn't always accurate.

I often pay the higher prices locally however because of previous bad experiences with both B&H and Adorama (owned by the same group as B&H) with requests to call them about orders and find they are trying to sell accessories to me etc. in addition to what I ordered.

Buy locally if you can and you always have recourse to swap etc.

Regards.

[Pileatus]

Eagle Optics has an unmatched reputation and I believe much of it stems from the fact that so many of their employees are REAL birders.

John

[Alexis Powell]

I've dealt with B&H on many scores of occasions over the past twenty years, and have never had a bad experience. I've also done business with Adorama on numerous occasions without any problems. These businesses have always provided me with the products that I asked for, and with all the warrantees, accessories etc provided by the manufacturers, whether USA warranteed or (at my request) grey-market. These are high volume businesses--the places to go when you know exactly what you want and when they have it for the price that you want--not service oriented businesses. With any of these sort of businesses, I recommend placing orders by phone, never on-line, and I recommend that your conversation be limited to confirming product model numbers, prices, availability, and confirmation of warranty/grey-market status, nothing more. The sales people are typically very efficient, and they may seem rude to the uninitiated, given how quickly and abruptly they speak (with none of the customer reassurance language that many of us have come to expect from salespeople). Don't ask any questions about product features, use, compatibility etc.

My experiences with other of these high volume, mostly New York based, camera stores (the places whose price listings have for years made up half the page volume of magazines like Popular Photography and Shuttterbug) have not gone so smoothly--I've never been ripped-off, but some of those other businesses certainly have tried! Read the buying tips section in Popular Photography (available at www.popphoto.com/checkrated) before you wade into this territory. I read the equilavent section in, then extant, Modern Photography before I started doing business with these places 20 years ago, and it has served me well. Back then, B&H was just one of numerous advertisers in the photo mags. Claims in their ads, such as "all items are complete with all accessories as supplied by manufacturer" seemed like a cruel jokes, kind of like the "honest" in another businesses' name, but to my surprise, I found their prices to be as low as anyone's, and yet I was never hassled in the stereotypical used-car-salesman style employed by others. Since then, B&H apparently made a good impression on other customers as well, because they have expanded considerably (as other businesses have, over the same period, disappeared) to a position of conspicuous dominance. I'd go so far as to say that B&H's exemplary practice has forced this "industry" as a whole to reform (even more so than the Modern/Popular Photography check-rating system). In the past, being scammed was not just a possibility, it was the industry norm, the standard. Dealing with attempted rip-offs was the price one had to pay to get camera gear for such low prices (often half that of local businesses, if even available from local businesses).

B&H and Adorama are the places that I buy photo gear, photo/video electronics, film, projection equipment etc. I'm not sure I've ever bought any binoculars from B&H. Why? Because their prices have never been very competitive. I've bought many binos from Adorama, which seems to devote more attention to sports optics and astronomy gear more than does B&H. I've also bought many binos from Cabela's--they are unbeatable when it comes to product availability (got my ELs there when the model first came out, when most businesses had long customer waiting lists), their prices are sometimes competitive, and their service/return policy is excellent, but most of my binos have come from Eagle Optics--they stock a huge selection, have competitive prices, have excellent service, know about their products (well enough even to provide advice!) and are even willing to engage in friendly conversation!

--AP

[Lewie]

The only problem with buying at stores is that anymore most stores seem more interested in photo processing than selling optical equipment. Sometimes it is even hard to get waited on, and their knowledge of equipment can be lacking in the extreme. I purchased my scope from a store, in the only store in the area that carries top optical equipment. First they tried to sell me a screw-in tripod head, then struggled to snap in the scope backwards. When I walk in there I often leave without being waited on
because I get tired of waiting.

I really do like Eagle Optics. They are usually very helpful, and provide excellent service if you have a problem with your purchase. I have purchased much stuff from them. The only problem I had was years ago when one person at EO said that depth of field does not pertain to binoculars.

[Leif]

Hi Otto,

B&H is affectionately known as "Beards & Hats" around New York

Excellent. On the phone they certainly sound as if they wear distinctive beards and wide brinned hats. Anyway, B&H have a reputation as one of the best photographic dealers in the US. I've bought from them several times without problems, in one case importing to the UK. They score well on customer feedback, unlike many shops in NY.

But Otto's experience sounds awful. As I believe they are honest, I would encourage Otto to politely contact a senior beard and hat wearer, and explain clearly his position. I would have thought that any reputable company would try hard to make amends. I hope so anyway.

But they are primarily a photo dealer not birding optics.

Leif

[medinabrit]

i believe i have made at least a dozen or more purchases of binoculars & astro equipment from adorama & a couple from B&H with no problems at all.
brian.

[Otto McDiesel]

i believe i have made at least a dozen or more purchases of binoculars & astro equipment from adorama & a couple from B&H with no problems at all.
brian.
It is "problem" solving that separates a good company from a "useless, utterly useless" one (to quote General B. L. Montgomery).
Between July and December of this year i've had 4 "problems" with them, all excindingly difficult to solve. That is enough for me.

[KCFoggin]

I've dealt with B&H for years and only once did I have a problem, but they were very quick to give me a discount for my aggravation for not delivering a new tripod before I took my trip to Fl.

[Bill Atwood]

What Alexis said. B&H and Adorama do emply aggressive salespeople, so know exactly what you want to purchase before you call and be firm.

Most of the other NYC outfits will go out of their way to screw you.

But sorry to hear about your problems Otto.

[elkcub]

...

Most of the other NYC outfits will go out of their way to screw you.



Your comment is false, out of line, and completely out of place. I think you have a hell of a nerve making it.

:storm:

I am a native New Yorker — and proud of it!

[Sailcat]

I have had dealings with a small number of New York camera retailers and have found them to be, in turns, knowledgeable, rude, inexpensive, sneaky, and fast. As with any company from anywhere in the world, one must be vigilant and vocal.

[Bill Atwood]

Maybe you should clean out your ears elk...

MOST OF THE OTHER NYC OUTFITS WILL GO OUT OF THEIR WAY TO SCREW YOU!!!!

This is well known by anyone with much experience with photo equipment mail order. Want evidence? Go to the member recommendations area at www.photo.net and look at the huge NYC store LIST OF SHAME.

Oh, and congratulations on the Yankee's record setting choke to the Bosox in the AL 2004 playoffs.

[Dave B Smith]

Otto,
Sorry you have had a problem with B&H. I've bought from B&H on line / phone for well over 20 years and have NEVER had a problem with them. I have used other NY mail order houses occassionally due to equipment availability or price and have found them generally "less pleasant". Now, I stick to B&H or Eagle Optics.

[elkcub]

Maybe you should clean out your ears elk...

MOST OF THE OTHER NYC OUTFITS WILL GO OUT OF THEIR WAY TO SCREW YOU!!!!

This is well known by anyone with much experience with photo equipment mail order. Want evidence? Go to the member recommendations area at www.photo.net and look at the huge NYC store LIST OF SHAME.

Oh, and congratulations on the Yankee's record setting choke to the Bosox in the AL 2004 playoffs.

Clean out your own ears. I repeat, Your comment is false, out of line, and completely out of place. I think you have a hell of a nerve making it.

I've been buying photo and other optical equipment successfully for the last 50 years, and often from those "... other NYC outfits." The material at www.photo.net (supported by Adorama and B&H) contains reasonable advise for an unwary buyer/seller. However, nowhere did I find the slanderous generalization you've repeated yet again. The "list of shame," as you call it, is nothing more than a feckless defamatory fabrication. Thinking that people "... go out of their way to screw you" may be a problem you need to look into.

Basically, if you can't find something constructive to say it's often better not to say anything at all.

[KCFoggin]

Okay guys. Time to take a deep breath and back off a bit.

[karmantra]

Okay guys. Time to take a deep breath and back off a bit.
Whoa--I think all of us are optical equipment freaks who demand perfection in our products we purchase, we look for the best deals, and we expect great service (at least I do!). Complaints usually originate with a defect in the product itself, and that can't be blamed on the retailer. I've been lucky so far on my purchases, but I have done most of my bino/scope purchases at the local retailers where I can view the product--with mail order you take your chances, or go with the one who hasn't screwed you yet!

[elkcub]

Yes, quite right. My experience is that problems generally originate with the product itself and not the dealer. An additional aspect that is very possible is that returned products are passed on to the next buyer more often in the case of mail order or on-line shops. Local dealers, which have smaller inventories, tend to exchange defective stuff with their supplier as soon as possible. If true, all the more reason to deal with a local retailer wherever you're located, as Otto originally suggested. If one does use an on-line dealer, the right to return the product within three business days should be kept foremost in mind (see Post #4).

Incidentally, I've had to return several binoculars to Cabela's as well as NYC dealers. In the end it always turned out that I bought a different product that worked fine. The problems were in the product itself, and in every case I subsequently found complaints about the very same issues on BF.

[Alexis Powell]

I disagree with the last two posts. When dealing with the mostly New York based camera/optics/electronics places, you are FAR more likely to have problems due to business practices than to defects in the manufactured product. Problems such as not mailing the purchased product (period, or in anything remotely resembling a timely fashion), doing unauthorized product substitutions, incompletely filling orders, not having items in stock at the advertised price, selling grey-market merchandise without informing the buyer except when asked (or lieing about same), disassembling/unpacking products so that modules/battery holders/cases cost extra, selling old versions of products without informing buyer, charging extraordinarily high shipping/packing/handling fees, selling used but in box products as if new...I have personal experience with all these scenarios, and they are all problems due to business practices, not the products.

I dare say that given my experiences and the experiences of close friends, these problems are routine with those businesses. That said, I have never had any of the above problems with B&H or Adorama, which is why they stand out as being so great. Neither B&H or Adorama has what I would call high quality customer service--the reason I and so many customers support B&H and Adorama is that they don't try to rip their customers off! Actually, I kind of enjoy their rather brusk but efficient style.

--AP

[chartwell99]

I think Alexis is dead on. I have also bought both binos and photo gear from B & H and Adorama with complete satisfaction. Prompt and reasonable shipping, careful packing, products exactly as represented at very competitive prices, no advice (but also no bait and switch) all delivered with might be charitably called a distinctively New York flair. If the price is close, I would still choose Eagle Optics for advice and service, but B & H is still a good bet for a lot of stuff, and Eagle Optics doesn't offer grey market which can often be a very sound choice.

--AP[/QUOTE]

[Bill Atwood]

Yes, Alexis is dead on, and his views reflect those of the majority of folks that have dealt with mail order photography suppliers.

B&H and Adorama have very good reps although Adorama may be slipping. 17th St. Photo and Hunt's (in Boston) have an excellent reps as well, but not the selection the others have. Badger Graphics in Wisconsin has been an excellent source of Gitzo and certain Canon products.

But if you blindly pick out one of the other retailers (largely NYC) that advertise in the back of photo mags...well...you probably still have a good chance of a successful transaction, but you shouldn't be surprised to have serious problems.

[zuiko]

One of the biggest issues that B&H and Adorama both share and is a problem for those who aren't aware is that they close on Friday afternoon through to Sunday.

This means that items ordered late in the week are almost invariably delayed till the middle of the next week.

My only gripe has been the offering of accessories for things I've ordered, and on one occasion at my expense as I had to call them from overseas for a 'problem with my order' that happened to be whether I wanted a protective filter for the lens I ordered. I believe they did this to buy some time for themselves and it resulted in an extra delay to shipping the item.

So some dodgy business practises which alienate buyers is definitely going on but I've had worse with other NY shops which have shipped me lenses full of fungus.

Regards.

[Leif]

Yes, quite right. My experience is that problems generally originate with the product itself and not the dealer. An additional aspect that is very possible is that returned products are passed on to the next buyer more often in the case of mail order or on-line shops. Local dealers, which have smaller inventories, tend to exchange defective stuff with their supplier as soon as possible. If true, all the more reason to deal with a local retailer wherever you're located, as Otto originally suggested. If one does use an on-line dealer, the right to return the product within three business days should be kept foremost in mind (see Post #4).

Incidentally, I've had to return several binoculars to Cabela's as well as NYC dealers. In the end it always turned out that I bought a different product that worked fine. The problems were in the product itself, and in every case I subsequently found complaints about the very same issues on BF.

Elkcub: I can understand your anger, but I think you should do some research first, before getting indignant. Unfortunately NYC has a large number of fraudsters selling cameras, and IMO it is right to warn people about this. They use techniques such as bait and switch. There's a recent case of a man who posted a bad review online after being ripped off by one such company. He subsequently received death threats from the shop owner. A quick search on Google located another person who received death threats from another scam merchant. You can find out about these people from www.Photo.Net and other online sites.

Leif

[elkcub]

One of the biggest issues that B&H and Adorama both share and is a problem for those who aren't aware is that they close on Friday afternoon through to Sunday.

This means that items ordered late in the week are almost invariably delayed till the middle of the next week.

They are pretty up front about it. I don't agree this would be an issue or require a delay "till the middle of the next week." From their website:

Hours of Operation
*
Sunday: 10:00AM - 5:00PM
Mon-Thu: 9:00AM – 7:00PM
Friday: 9:00AM – 1:00PM
Saturday: Closed
*
Our Time Zone (GMT –05:00) Eastern Time

My only gripe has been the offering of accessories for things I've ordered, and on one occasion at my expense as I had to call them from overseas for a 'problem with my order' that happened to be whether I wanted a protective filter for the lens I ordered. I believe they did this to buy some time for themselves and it resulted in an extra delay to shipping the item.

Is everything that results in an inconvenience a nefarious scheme? Many on-line sites intrude by trying to market accessories. When I was buying lenses (long ago) I always bought a filter to protect it. They may not have known you were overseas.

So some dodgy business practises which alienate buyers is definitely going on but I've had worse with other NY shops which have shipped me lenses full of fungus.
I guess your answer would be yes. Which are the "... other NY shops" that ship fungus filled lenses? So far, they go unidentified and are just waiting there for the next innocent to be 'screwed, blued and tattooed."

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your words, but throughout this entire thread a constant finger has been pointed at those "other" NYC dealers who, in their collective anonymity, serve as nothing more than a hobgoblin. Who are they exactly? When all the facts are on the table, and everyone's bad stories and gripes are vented, (and maybe a good one now and again) then perhaps the dimentions of the beast can be determined, as well as where it resides. Absent particulars, it's all unfair rumors and innuendo. For those who would jump up and insist they have had problems with NY dealers, please note that I am not refuting that. I've had some bad experiences myself, with NY dealers and others.

I hope you follow what I'm saying. That several bad dealers might be located in New York City is completely irrelevant. Who the dealers are is very relevant. In starting out this thread Otto specifically pointed to B&H and recommended against using them. I respect that as a valid opinion, although it has been moderated by subsequent posts.

Ed Huff

[elkcub]

Elkcub: I can understand your anger, but I think you should do some research first, before getting indignant. Unfortunately NYC has a large number of fraudsters selling cameras, and IMO it is right to warn people about this. They use techniques such as bait and switch. There's a recent case of a man who posted a bad review online after being ripped off by one such company. He subsequently received death threats from the shop owner. A quick search on Google located another person who received death threats from another scam merchant. You can find out about these people from www.Photo.Net and other online sites.

Leif

Leif,

I just saw your post. I hope my reply to Zuiko covers some of my growing concerns about generalized references to business people in a given city or geographic area. Personally, I would suggest that the extent of consumer fraud (and associated violence) in metropolitan areas is largely proportional to the extent of commerce — and New York is a major commercial city.

Having been the Social Research Director (for youth crime) in one of New York's major cities (in times past) I'm not surprised that incidents like the ones you mentioned take place. Nuts are everywhere, including the scary one that I became involved with as part of an eBay fraud two years ago. That guy did business from a sleepy little town in North Carolina, but I'll forego mentioning its name.

IMO there is no information value, i.e., uncertaintly reduction, in knowing the city. There is a lot of information value in studying the cues surrounding the transaction. Of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I do appreciate your comment.

Ed
PS. If I sound angry, an apology is due since I'm really not. Maybe opinionated people sound angry? Hmmmm, have to think about that. (o)<

[gremlin]

Not that my experience is all that significant to the dialogue, but I've purchased probably a dozen different items from B&H over the last several years and not experienced a single difficulty. Of course, nothing required returning on any of those purchases.

I have also had great experience with Eagle Optics on a similar volume of business and the one time that I did have a problem, Eagle Optics was both prompt and courteous and fixed the problem overnight.

It's always been my experience that when I purchased 'via mail' that I understood up front the risk that I was taking by not buying 'face to face'. I understood that long distance transactions carried an element of risk and that the benefit that I was receiving was either reduced sale price or greater selection.

But I understood that it came with a greater risk.

Having said that, my worst purchase experiences have been with some of the local folks at hometown camera stores...

[Otto McDiesel]

Well, after 6 phone calls and 3 weeks waiting, i still don't have my money back.

If that is a good company, than i am the Bishop of Bora Bora.
I will wait one more day, after which i will file complaints, and sue them in court.

Learn ye lesson.

[Leif]

Leif,

I just saw your post. I hope my reply to Zuiko covers some of my growing concerns about generalized references to business people in a given city or geographic area. Personally, I would suggest that the extent of consumer fraud (and associated violence) in metropolitan areas is largely proportional to the extent of commerce — and New York is a major commercial city.

Having been the Social Research Director (for youth crime) in one of New York's major cities (in times past) I'm not surprised that incidents like the ones you mentioned take place. Nuts are everywhere, including the scary one that I became involved with as part of an eBay fraud two years ago. That guy did business from a sleepy little town in North Carolina, but I'll forego mentioning its name.

IMO there is no information value, i.e., uncertaintly reduction, in knowing the city. There is a lot of information value in studying the cues surrounding the transaction. Of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I do appreciate your comment.

Ed
PS. If I sound angry, an apology is due since I'm really not. Maybe opinionated people sound angry? Hmmmm, have to think about that. (o)<


Hi Elkcub: You make some reasonable points. However, my take on this is that New York seems to have more than its fair share of dishonest dealers. Among the photographic community NY does have a reputation. It seems that both the best and the worst dealers are there. I checked the listings on Photo Net, and I found 5 dubious stores, with 1 based in CA, and the rest in NY. As you say, it might be because NY has so many dealers, though it does seem high. Anyway I feel that it is worthwhile to warn people to check out a place first (wherever it is based).

Unfortunately some of the scam dealers are now paying some customers a discount if they post a glowing review on the internet. But you can still see the reviews from cheesed off customers. Of course to say "All NY photo dealers are dishonest" is silly. As I've said, the best are also there (excepting Otto's appalling experience).

Leif

[Leif]

Well, after 6 phone calls and 3 weeks waiting, i still don't have my money back.

If that is a good company, than i am the Bishop of Bora Bora.
I will wait one more day, after which i will file complaints, and sue them in court.

Learn ye lesson.

Otto

Why not post an account of your dealings with B&H to the Photo Net review section? Your experiences are not good. B&H appear to take Photo Net very seriously.

http://www.photo.net/neighbor/subcategory-index?id=2

Leif

[elkcub]

Hi Elkcub: ... Anyway I feel that it is worthwhile to warn people to check out a place first (wherever it is based).

Leif

Hi Leif,

We agree entirely, and the Photo Net list serves a good purpose. I like the way it clusters the comments about each dealer, so the reader can quickly determine which are serious or frivolous.

As for enticing good internet reviews by giving discounts, it may be worthwhile to contemplate man's inability to eliminate cockroaches. |=(|

Happy New Year to all.

http://web.icq.com/friendship/swf/0,,16961_rs,00.swf