Intersting Swift Model

[richt]

Hi Ed and others

There is a rather interesting Swift porro on UK area of the famous bidding site at present
Model is a 9 x 40 Albany MK11 445 ft at 1000 yds

Seems like a variant on Audubon ?

Bit puzzling this one other more knowledgeable folk may know more

Regards
Rich

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Swift-Albany-MK2-9x-40-Binoculars_W0QQitemZ7605697508QQcategoryZ10955QQrd Z1QQcmdZViewItem

[henry link]

Hmm....445 ft at 1000 yds. If accurate that works out to a 76 degree AFOV. Ed, I know it's 5:30 AM in California, but wake up and find your credit card!

[elkcub]

Hi Ed and others

There is a rather interesting Swift porro on UK area of the famous bidding site at present
Model is a 9 x 40 Albany MK11 445 ft at 1000 yds

Seems like a variant on Audubon ?

Bit puzzling this one other more knowledgeable folk may know more

Regards
Rich

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Swift-Albany-MK2-9x-40-Binoculars_W0QQitemZ7605697508QQcategoryZ10955QQrd Z1QQcmdZViewItem

Hi Richt and Henry,

According to Humphrey H. Swift (see our article pg. 2), in 1972 Swift entered into a joint venture with with Pyser, U.K. to service Europe. Type 3a,b Audubon construction appeared thereafter. Like Swift USA, Swift-Pyser marketed a Mark II series, which is associated with their premier line. Usually, but not always, Swift-Pyser products also had a blue (or gold) ribbon. As we are now discovering, "SP" and "SPWA" were designations used by Swift-Pyser (i.e., SP) on their own series, one of which was also a classic Audubon. They also developed configurations, such as this 9x40, which their American counterpart did not.

Anyway, in the strict sense, I would not think of this as an Audubon variant, — although it does come from the European Mark II series, has the same 445 ft. FOV as the Type 3 Audubon, and is of Type 3 construction (see strap rings). With only one exception (the beautiful 7x35 model 825 roof), "Audubon" has been reserved exclusively for 8.5x44 configurations. That includes the rather ugly Model 827 and the current 828 HHS.

Thanks for the head's up on this guy,
Ed

[richt]

Hi Richt and Henry,

According to Humphrey H. Swift (see our article pg. 2), in 1972 Swift entered into a joint venture with with Pyser, U.K. to service Europe. Type 3a,b Audubon construction appeared thereafter. Like Swift USA, Swift-Pyser marketed a Mark II series, which is associated with their premier line. Usually, but not always, Swift-Pyser products also had a blue (or gold) ribbon. As we are now discovering, "SP" and "SPWA" were designations used by Swift-Pyser (i.e., SP) on their own series, one of which was also a classic Audubon. They also developed configurations, such as this 9x40, which their American counterpart did not.

Anyway, in the strict sense, I would not think of this as an Audubon variant, — although it does come from the European Mark II series, has the same 445 ft. FOV as the Type 3 Audubon, and is of Type 3 construction (see strap rings). With only one exception (the beautiful 7x35 model 825 roof), "Audubon" has been reserved exclusively for 8.5x44 configurations. That includes the rather ugly Model 827 and the current 828 HHS.

Thanks for the head's up on this guy,
Ed

Hi Ed

As a further note on interesting Swift models i came across a rare find today in a small camera shop in North East UK
Brand new with box and all accesories 8 x 42 Saratoga Multi coated 435 fov and the serial no had 81 in so presumably this was a 25 year old binocular still sat new in a display cabinet !
Had a look thru and it had that trademark Swift easy wide view it also seemed nice and bright
I did consider buying this bin but the dealer had it tagged with a very old looking price sticker at £229 and wouldnt budge
Dont really know the value but it was a nice view and multi coated (not fully multi coated) so perhaps a later Audubon with 8.5 mag might be better in low light

There cant be many of these "new" 8 x 42 Saratoga's left about though

Regards
Rich

[Renze de Vries]

Hi Richt,

You found one of the four Swift SPWA's developed by Pyser U.K. The other models were 8x36, 9x42 and 10x42. I own the 9x42 and it's of the best binoculars made by Swift ever, at least on par with the Audubon 8.5x44 (804) but in my case (taking sample variation into account) even better. This 9x42 uses exactly the same body as the 804 but is a bit lighter. Because of the relatively independent policy of the Swift European branch these SPWA's (there were SP's also, in a slightly lower quality range) were marketed in Europe almost exclusively, and as Swift USA were reluctant to add them to their already considerable program you won't find them in the US. With at least one notable exception, the 10x42 Condor, which is probably the SPWA 10x42 in US disguise. I say probably because it looks exactly like it, and with regard to quality I know of one collector and connoiseur of Japanese optics who rates this Condor as high as the 10x50 Audubon/Kestrel.
There are not too much SPWA's around but my guess is the whole series is of exceptional quality. In the last couple of years I saw the 8x36 offered on eBay only once, but this week I was lucky enough to hold one dismantled specimen (the objectives were missing but the body was intact) and it's certainly one of the finest small bins ever produced.
So my advice is to check those 8x42's out some more, compare with your own bins, take your time, get friendly with the seller and see if he is willing to lower his price. Of course the price is far beyond their current market value, but with regard to quality-price ratio the seller is probably right!
Good luck.

Renze

Oh yes, the names of those SPWA's (and adopted children) is a mess. The same names (often names already in existence for completely different binoculars) being used for different configurations in different countries etc. The Saratoga for instance was once an 8x40 in the US, and in Holland the Saratoga was used for the 8x36 SPWA!

[elkcub]

Richt,

Thanks for continuing the thread. As fate would have it there is an 8x42 Saratoga on eBay right now and I'll bet you can get it for a lot less than your dealer quoted: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7616860559&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

As Renze pointed out, Europeans were presented with a different Swift lineup than Americans, with only partially overlapping models. In this instance the Saratoga shares the same classic blue ribbon and construction as the Type 3 Audubon. Being a Mk II it would have a 5-element Erlfe eyepiece and fully coated (FC) optics, without multi-coating. The American Mk II series corresponds to Type 2 Audubon construction. My 1980 catalog showns seven models including the Audubon, and I own a Commodore 7x50 with 505 ft. FOV. Americans were also offered a Mk I "Nighthawk" 8x40WA with a 499 ft. field. Given the wide FOV it probably also used a 5-element eyepiece.

What strikes me about all the older Swift models of is how beefy and well made they are. Reiterating what Renze said, they are of "exceptional quality," and probably never to be made again. I've been extremely fortunate to buy five different models on eBay, all in near perfect condition. My oldest Type 1c Audubon arrived covered with dust from the glue that had totally deteriorated inside the leather case after 40+ years; but a blower removed all the dust and a single drop of gun oil restored the focus control to butter smooth. I think they used bronze sleeve bearings. The optics on each model are really outstanding, and it's so easy to become addicted to the wide-angle view. Please let us know if you pick up the 8x42 Saratoga.

Regards,
ED

[Renze de Vries]

Hi Ed and Richt,

Stop! Watch out!
Please see my last remark about names, because the confusion is in play here already. Ed, the Saratoga on eBay is exactly the one I had in mind when writing 'The Saratoga for instance was once an 8x40 in the US'. My mistake here is in 'in the US'. Of course the 8x40 Saratoga was not only distributed in the US but in Europe as well (blue ribbon=European).
So this 8x40 Saratoga is certainly not identical to the 8x42 SPWA Saratoga, it's a completely different animal!

I think what happened was that when the in the 1980's the design change took place from the older 'heavyweights' to the much lighter and easier to handle bodies, some models were discontinued completely. But of course their names were still there, ready to be used. So when Pyser started to develop a whole new range of binoculars, simply marked with SPWA (Swift-Pyser Wide Angle) + the configuration, those old names could be added to them. However, as far as I know, only the SPWA 8x42 was really marked - in print, on the lid - as Saratoga. The other SPWA's didn't carry names on the binoculars, but as this was felt impractical names were added to them in catalogues. With confusing results: the Dutch Saratoga (SPWA 8x36) for instance is not the British Saratoga (8x42 SPWA) while both are of course different from the Saratoga 8x40 (Mark II/blue ribbon).

cheers,

Renze

[richt]

Hi Ed and Richt,

Stop! Watch out!
Please see my last remark about names, because the confusion is in play here already. Ed, the Saratoga on eBay is exactly the one I had in mind when writing 'The Saratoga for instance was once an 8x40 in the US'. My mistake here is in 'in the US'. Of course the 8x40 Saratoga was not only distributed in the US but in Europe as well (blue ribbon=European).
So this 8x40 Saratoga is certainly not identical to the 8x42 SPWA Saratoga, it's a completely different animal!

I think what happened was that when the in the 1980's the design change took place from the older 'heavyweights' to the much lighter and easier to handle bodies, some models were discontinued completely. But of course their names were still there, ready to be used. So when Pyser started to develop a whole new range of binoculars, simply marked with SPWA (Swift-Pyser Wide Angle) + the configuration, those old names could be added to them. However, as far as I know, only the SPWA 8x42 was really marked - in print, on the lid - as Saratoga. The other SPWA's didn't carry names on the binoculars, but as this was felt impractical names were added to them in catalogues. With confusing results: the Dutch Saratoga (SPWA 8x36) for instance is not the British Saratoga (8x42 SPWA) while both are of course different from the Saratoga (8x40 Mark II/blue ribbon).

cheers,

Renze


Hi Renze and Ed

Well first off let me congratulate you both on a very strong knowledge of these binoculars and thanks for all the info
Renze i think your on the ball with the 8 x 42 info as the binocular body i tried yesterday was certainly smaller than the very early Swift's
It was multi coated rather than fully coated or fully multi coated so i think 1981 would seem about right for manufacture
This one is brand new on the display and was hidden away behind numerous Minox Pentax and Olympus models but i seized the chance to look thru it
I had around 20 mins only as i was working but the fov was very obviously much greater than the other models i mentioned above
I looked thru Pentax and Minox porros and roofs and have to say the Swift gave the easiest most satisfying overall view though perhaps the cheap Pentax porro (8 x 40) performed best for price £70
I didnt think it was quite as "wow" image wise as the 804 Audubon 's i have encountered but only marginally not so and i was limited in what i could view also these are 8 x 42 not 8.5 x 44 so the image scale presumably is lower and there is a little less light collected
Being hyper critical ( as we all are at times) the image was a little edge soft but i think this is characteristic of wide field bins and you had to look for it before it became noticeable
Holding wise i found it quite comfortable but then again i'm a big porro user
Basically when i compared outside the shop with some £400 Minox i preferred the Swift


Renze i think i will take your advice and re-check this out when i am up there in a couple of weeks (i dont think it will sell quickly at £229) the camera shop chap said all the other models sell more regularly though the Swift is excellent
I may try to work on him as regards price because even though rare and in new condition a new 820 Audubon can be had for £180-£200 in UK and these are very very old stock
Not sure as to this binoculars real worth but i intend to take my Nikon E11 8 x 30 with me next time round as this is a very good wide angle 8 x binocular imho

Its still surprised me to see this model available at such a long time after manufacture perhaps its worth a purchase even as semi-collectable

Of course i am still toying with Ed's past tip off ref the 804 "new" fully multi coated Audubon availabilty in US
I have enquired and these are still available so may have to think sooner rather than later

Regards
Rich

[elkcub]

Hi Ed and Richt,

Stop! Watch out!
Please see my last remark about names, because the confusion is in play here already. Ed, the Saratoga on eBay is exactly the one I had in mind when writing 'The Saratoga for instance was once an 8x40 in the US'. My mistake here is in 'in the US'. Of course the 8x40 Saratoga was not only distributed in the US but in Europe as well (blue ribbon=European).
So this 8x40 Saratoga is certainly not identical to the 8x42 SPWA Saratoga, it's a completely different animal!

I think what happened was that when the in the 1980's the design change took place from the older 'heavyweights' to the much lighter and easier to handle bodies, some models were discontinued completely. But of course their names were still there, ready to be used. So when Pyser started to develop a whole new range of binoculars, simply marked with SPWA (Swift-Pyser Wide Angle) + the configuration, those old names could be added to them. However, as far as I know, only the SPWA 8x42 was really marked - in print, on the lid - as Saratoga. The other SPWA's didn't carry names on the binoculars, but as this was felt impractical names were added to them in catalogues. With confusing results: the Dutch Saratoga (SPWA 8x36) for instance is not the British Saratoga (8x42 SPWA) while both are of course different from the Saratoga 8x40 (Mark II/blue ribbon).

cheers,

Renze

Renze,

After reading your post thrice I couldn't help but think that we're talking about a semi-stochasitc, partially-coupled, dual-valued time series. One searches desperately for a common principle to tie the conundrums together, in effect, in search of an epiphany — maybe even a religious experience.

This morning, when I awoke, there it was starting me in the brain: Hiyoshi Kogaku, Ltd. These are the shadowy elven folk, who nobody really knows about, who researched, designed and made all of these binoculars! Swift and Pyser were really only the marketing moguls who added model numbers, names, and fancy detailing to the cover plates. So, who were the heroes, and who do we venerate?

Yes, I certainly agree with your analysis. The 8x40 "Saratoga" on eBay is clearly a large body, Type 3 construction, and the one you guys are talking about is apparently a Type 4. If made in 1981 it was probably advertised as "Multi-Coated Optics," since that's what the elven folk were producing at the time. Wouldn't it be nice to have accesss to Hiyoshi's production records (in English or Dutch)? But, since I'm unable to find even the remotest internet reference to them, they may have gone the way of the Great Auk at the turn of the millennium.

Enough rambling for me.

ED

[Renze de Vries]

This morning, when I awoke, there it was starting me in the brain: Hiyoshi Kogaku, Ltd. These are the shadowy elven folk, who nobody really knows about, who researched, designed and made all of these binoculars! Swift and Pyser were really only the marketing moguls who added model numbers, names, and fancy detailing to the cover plates. So, who were the heroes, and who do we venerate?

Agreed! We're overlooking the real designer! Japanese BF members, please join in!

About the serial number mentioned by Rich, this means that the SPWA's were in production for at least 5 years (my sn starts with 86)

Renze