Surreybirder's local patch

[Surreybirder]

I thought I'd post something about my local patch in East Surrey. It's a bit rough-and-ready because it's edited down from an article and a subsequent update on my website. But I hope it's of interest.

I might just explain that I call myself "Surreybirder" because I started the Surreybirders yahoogroup a couple of years ago in consultation with some of the officials of the Surrey Bird Club (SBC). There's no official connection but I like to feel that Surreybirders will help boost the aims of SBC and increase interest in it.
My introductory article will come in the next post (all being well!)
Ken

[Surreybirder]

My 'local patch' is an ill-defined area around our home in Hurst Green, immediately south of Oxted, in east Surrey. Within a mile there is a good variety of habitats. Our house (since March 1993) overlooks Coltsford Mill Pond (grid ref. TQ 398507), which contains a small island. (The pond is on private land but can be viewed from a public footpath which passes to the south of it.)

To the west of the pond, running south along the zero meridian is the alder-lined River Eden, here a stream. Much of the area around the village is mixed farmland, some of which, particularly to the south-west, has been allowed to 'go native'. There are dense, mature hedgerows and fields which are cut annually allowing attractive wild-flower meadows to develop. (I am no botanist but I have noticed common spotted orchids, bitter vetchling and speedwell, for example.) One field alongside the Eden, which was formerly a flood meadow, is designated as a Site of Nature Conservation Value. Unfortunately the owner keeps mowing it. There is a sewage works nearby.

The area also has mature woodland, notably Foyle Riding and Staffhurst Wood (an SSSI), both of which are outstanding for bluebells in spring. The former has mature oaks as well as extensive areas of coppiced willow, chestnut and other species. (In 1927 it was the setting for a famous cello recital by Beatrice Harrison with nightingales singing in the background. Extracts can be heard on the BTO CD released in aid of the nightingale appeal.) Staffhurst Wood consists mainly of oak and beech with many immature hornbeams. One area is being planted with cherry and hazel in an attempt to attract dormice, nightingales and hawfinches.

To date, I've seen 94 species of birds from the house or garden, with four more heard. (This total does not include a whooper swan and a barnacle goose of suspect origin, nor a tern or two which were probably common.) I suspect that the Eden might act as something of a 'flyway' (migration route) for migrants, as birds seen from our house include ring ouzel, black redstart (two years running in our garden), whinchat, stonechat, wheatear, spotted flycatcher, common sandpiper and the Sterna terns. Two hundred and twenty swallows were perched on overhead wires in the early morning of 8th September, 1997. They may have roosted overnight among the rushes and sedges on the mill pond island. Migrants never seem to linger, possibly because the pond is used by anglers and there are many dog walkers about.

The island on the mill pond was for some years used as a roost by pied wagtails, my best count being 425 in November 1995. Numbers built up each autumn, dropped considerably in winter and then peaked again, at lower levels, in spring. The island also provides a refuge for snipe and the occasional water rail. Snipe are hard to count but up to 40 may be seen after heavy rain when they move onto an adjacent field, called Pond Tail Meadow.

The pond holds small numbers of tufted ducks in winter (maximum to date 24). Other species have included Egyptian geese, pochard, pintail, gadwall, shoveller and, in January 1998, a smew. In summer, house and a few sand martins often feed over the pond and this may account for occasional hobby sightings. Kingfishers are seen from time to time.

The sewage works holds few birds of interest but it is surrounded by trees and bushes. These provide perches for corvids (up to 200 jackdaws and 125 crows) and harbour the occasional wintering chiffchaff. A few willow warblers (passage migrants only in my area), blackcaps or lesser whitethroats appear and in March 1998 a firecrest arrived with a small influx of goldcrests. The nearby Tandridge District commercial services yard held a black redstart in mid-October, 1996, making it the third in the village in successive years.

As you walk past the sewage works westwards and cross the Eden, you enter good habitat for some declining farm-land species. Bullfinches, yellowhammers and linnets seem to have healthy populations, and skylarks and lapwings maintain a presence. I have seen grey partridges only once. The area is particularly good for turtle doves, with about six males singing in most summers. Nightingales have twice summered. Garden warblers, chiffchaffs, whitethroats, and lesser whitethroats are usually the commonest warblers. It was while looking for the last species in 1997 that I heard a bird giving what sounded like the typical song with a slight change of tempo in the middle. When I finally got a brief view of it, it looked like a common whitethroat though, to my eyes, slightly 'washed out'. It stayed for three or four days and later it was alternating the 'lesser' song with that of the common whitethroat. Another observer was convinced it was indeed a whitethroat but I have never felt sure. It was unusually skulking for a whitethroat and, the habitat seemed more typical of lesser's. Could it have been a hybrid?

In 1996 a male Cetti's warbler summered along the banks of the Eden. Night after night, I could hear it clearly in the small hours from our bathroom window - possibly the only perk of being woken regularly by a toddler! I was interested to observe that the song gradually became shorter as the year progressed until, by mid-June, it often gave just one penetrating note. The fact that it kept singing so persistently may mean that it failed to attract a mate. (For more on insomniac Cetti's warblers, see British Birds Vol 72, p 184.)

The woodland holds the expected species including lesser spotted woodpecker. But either I'm bad at finding them or the LSW is scarce. Marsh tits, on the other hand, can often be found without difficulty, especially in winter and spring.

Nightingales used to occur but I’ve not heard one since 2001.

A recent development has been the digging of a fishpond, called Edenbrook Farm Fishery. It is about an acre in extent with a couple of islands. This has begun to pay dividends with sightings of mandarins, great crested and little grebes, as well as breeding tufted ducks, mute swans, Canada and greylag geese. Kingfishers are regular, and passage birds have included the occasional common sandpiper.

The area is generally good for little owls with several pairs breeding in most years.

I have seen Red-legged Partridge several times, and up to 200 lapwings occur in the autumn months. Last autumn there were also four golden plovers present.

I try and keep a record of what birds are breeding. The most notable phenomenon this year (2003) has been the dramatic rise in lesser whitethroat numbers (about 10 territories) and a corresponding fall in whitethroat territories. Presumably this is because the hedges have matured to the point where they favour the former species.

There is a more about the area on my web site. See below.

[Surreybirder]

This is a view of the mill pond mentioned above.

[Surreybirder]

The meadows to the west of Hurst Green are full of wildflowers because they are only cut once a year... and the hedges are good for turtle doves because they are not cut at all!

PS Is there a way of putting more than one photo with a posting??

[Charles Harper]

Thanks Keith,

That's a very comprehensive summary, and it looks like gorgeous countryside. And 94 species sounds good. (Can't help with the pix -- I'm computer illiterate).

[Sal]

Thanks for that - a very interesting and evocative description and lovely pictures. What a good idea to put pictures in, it really helps me to envisage your patch. It sounds magic! So many birds and a great variety.

[Karl J]

Yes, the pictures bring it all to life. Pic 1, especially in my view, is postcard stuff. Excellent

As for having extra pics per post, I was planning to put links in the post to pics in the gallery ( when my film's developed ) . I think you can have as many as you want that way.

[Surreybirder]

frogs, that is.
I looked at our garden pond today and there were several tiny froglets, about 1cm long. The funny thing was that my daughter did a bit of pond dipping and caught a tadpole which was bigger than the froglets. Can anyone explain that?

[Karl J]

Frogs - different species ?

[Geoff Pain]

How do you put the links in the post to pics in the gallery?


Geoff

[Surreybirder]

Geoff, I'm not sure your question is in the right thread, but I'll try and answer it:
You click on 'post reply' and then you will see a little button marked http://. click on it and it will ask you for some text. Type something like click here and then press OK. It will then ask for the URL of the photo (or web page) you want to link to. Copy this from the http address at the top of the gallery page and paste it into this box. Then click OK again and Albert's your granny....
(Simpler than it sounds)

Meanwhile, back in my local patch, I've taken some photos of the froglets. This one shows it next to a pond skater to give an idea of the size.

[Surreybirder]

Anyone know what this one is... I suspect it might be a stickleback. It was in our garden pond, about 2.5" long. It's now safely back in the pond. (We haven't introduced any non-native fish.)

[Surreybirder]

For the second year running I watched a dunnock feeding a cuckoo this morning in Hurst Green. The cuckoo was fully grown although it still seemed to have white feathers (down?) around the nape. It could fly quite strongly. I was about 50 yards away and could see the bright red gape clearly through my bins. (Pity I didn't have my scope with me as it would have made a great digiscope shot, IF I'd managed to get the thing right.) An amazing thing to see, even if it wasn't for the first time.
I also got a 'patch' tick in the form of a white admiral (in the oak wood at Merle Common). I watched if for a long time before it landed and I could get a proper view of it.

[Surreybirder]

If anyone has looked at my web site :t: they may have noticed that I've been doing a study of the tetrad (2 x 2 kms square) in which I live. I've been recording all the birds seen each month and also collecting evidence of breeding. I've put up an article on my web site with an outline of the results for the first year (completed in July 2001).

I have now--finally--finished the three-year study. So I'll be writing it up in due course. But I thought I'd put a few preliminary results here, in case anyone is interested:

I've finally finished the three-year study of my tetrad--except that I'm still looking for evidence of breeding, due to the slightly odd approach I adopted of making observations from July 2000 to June 2003.
Prelim results are that I identified 105 species during the three years. By coincidence, I saw the same no. in the first six months of this year as in the final six months of 2000--84 species. My best month was April this year with 70 species. Only 31 species were seen in every month, 12 were seen in only one month.
Breeding totals are (so far):
Definite 49 species
Probable 14
Possible 9
Total 72

It now feels funny walking round the area without ticking off the species seen--but it's also something of a relief! :bounce:


(Digibinned house sparrow below)

[Karl J]

Originally posted by Surreybirder
If anyone has looked at my web site


.... have now ! :t:

Interesting and quite comprehensive stuff there.

Be good to get the species names when you write it up.

[Surreybirder]

Be good to get the species names when you write it up.
They'll be there!

[Surreybirder]

Most birders will know that the common cuckoo of western Europe is a nest parasite. The females specialize in predating a particular species and lay a single egg closely matching the host's own eggs in the host's nest. The cuckoo hatches and pushes all the other eggs and nestlings out of the nest. The latest research suggests that the nestling cuckoo makes as much noise as several 'normal' chicks which stimulates the host parents to provide as much food as it needs. The parents go on feeding the cuckoo until it is fully grown... which in the case of the dunnock or reed warbler, for example, means until it is several times bigger than the 'parent'! The other day I watched a dunnock feeding a cuckoo which was perched on a fence and completely dwarfed it... which is what led me to write this. The cuckoo Cuculus canorus is about the size of a kestrel while a dunnock is the size of a house sparrow.
As I understand it North American cuckoos are not brood parasites but brown-headed cowbirds are.
Isn't nature amazing...
By the way, only female cuckoos seem to be 'specialists', male cuckoos will mate with any female they can... so the genetic information relevant to the host species is only carried down the female line (in the mitochondial as opposed to nuclear) DNA!

[Charles Harper]

Looking forward to the study report, Kenneth, and not just the birdlist. Are you just putting it on your website, or here too?

[Surreybirder]

Hi, Charles.
The results of the first year of my study are on my web site (if you can find it.. you have to go to 'Birds and wildlife' then click on 'scientific study of Hurst Green's birds').
I'm hoping to get the full three-year study published in the Surrey Bird Report so I'm afraid that won't appear for quite a while. I only added 10 more species in the second and third years combined, including Egyptian goose, ring-necked parakeet, spotted flycatcher and lesser spotted woodpecker.
Ken

[Surreybirder]

The following is a list of birds that I have seen within a one-mile radius of my home during the 10 years I've lived here (March 1993 to July 2003)
All but one (merlin--rejected by Surrey Bird Club records committee :storm: ) have also been seen on my 'study tetrad' referred to above. Not counting the two feral species and the terns (none of which I've identified to species), I think it comes to 112.
Considering that there are no large water bodies in the area, I don't think it's a bad list. (Other people have seen barn owl, ring-necked parakeet, waxwing, and there have been various claims of osprey--but it's hard to know how reliable these reports are.)

Little Grebe
Great Crested Grebe
Cormorant
Grey Heron
Mute Swan
Egyptian Goose
Greylag Goose
Canada Goose
Mallard
Teal
Gadwall
Pintail
Shoveler
Mandarin Duck
Tufted Duck
Pochard
Smew
Sparrowhawk
Osprey
Buzzard
Hobby
Kestrel
Peregrine
(Merlin - I still think it was!)
Red-legged Partridge
Grey Partridge
Pheasant
Water Rail
Moorhen
Coot
Lapwing
Golden Plover
Snipe
Green Sandpiper
Common Sandpiper
Great Black-backed Gull
Lesser Black-backed Gull
Herring Gull
Common Gull
Black-headed Gull
Tern sp.
Stock Dove
Rock Dove
Woodpigeon
Turtle Dove
Collared Dove
Cuckoo
Little Owl
Tawny Owl
Swift
Common Kingfisher
Green Woodpecker
Great Spotted Woodpecker
Lesser Spotted Woodpecker
Skylark
Swallow
House Martin
Sand Martin
Meadow Pipit
Pied Wagtail
Grey Wagtail
Yellow Wagtail
Wren
Dunnock
Mistle Thrush
Fieldfare
Song Thrush
Redwing
Ring Ouzel
Blackbird
Wheatear
Stonechat
Whinchat
Redstart
Black Redstart
Nightingale
Robin
Cetti's Warbler
Reed Warbler
Sedge Warbler
Blackcap
Garden Warbler
Whitethroat
Lesser Whitethroat
Willow Warbler
Chiffchaff
Goldcrest
Firecrest
Spotted Flycatcher
Pied Flycatcher
Long-tailed Tit
Great Tit
Blue Tit
Coal Tit
Marsh Tit
Nuthatch
Treecreeper
Carrion/hooded Crow
Rook
Jackdaw
Magpie
Jay
Starling
House Sparrow
Tree Sparrow
Greenfinch
Goldfinch
Siskin
Linnet
Lesser redpoll
Bullfinch
Chaffinch
Brambling
Yellowhammer
Reed Bunting

Whooper swan (feral)
Barnacle goose (feral)

[Karl J]

Originally posted by Surreybirder

Considering that there are no large water bodies in the area, I don't think it's a bad list.

.... No nor do I ... I think it's quite remarkable. Shows what close study of a small area can reveal, thanks for putting that up.

[Surreybirder]

Having taken quite a few photos of hoverflies in our garden I've so far only managed to concoct the following list:


Eristalis pertinax
Syrphyus sp. (prob. ribesii)
Eupeodes sp.
Epsitrophe nitidicollis
Helophilus pendulus
Saeva selenitica
Sphaerophoria sp.
Episyrphus balteatus [Marmalade fly]
Eristalis sp.

[Andrew]

Wow, those names go right over my head! I assume they are probably fascinating species with wonderful colours!

[Surreybirder]

Actually, Andrew, the differences are often subtle--but the marmalade fly is a lovely marmalade orange!
I'll risk boring yet more people but here is a list of Odonata found on my patch:

Zygoptera

Beautiful demoiselle
Banded demoiselle
White-legged damselfly
Large red damselfly
Red-eyed damselfly
Azure damselfly
Common blue damselfly
Blue-tailed damselfly

Anisoptera

Migrant hawker
Southern hawker
Brown hawker
Emperor Dragonfly
Broad-bodied chaser
Black-tailed skimmer
Common Darter

[Andrew]

Yes we do get those in our garden but I have never paid attention to them before. I thought there was only one hoverfly, I will look more closely now. Thanks for showing me the light!

[Surreybirder]

I've seen the following butterflies on my local patch:

Small skipper
Essex skipper
Large skipper
Clouded yellow
Brimstone
Large white
Small white
Green-veined white
Orangetip
Common blue
Small copper -- added later
Holly blue
White admiral
Red admiral
Painted lady
Small tortoiseshell
Peacock
Comma
Speckled wood
Hedge brown (or Gatekeeper)
Meadow brown
Ringlet

I believe this pic is of a common blue:

[Nina P]

In my book it is called an adonis butterfly as we had one here, and my granddaughter and I looked it up in my field guide, and it is the male of the species as the female is almost black. Nina.

[Surreybirder]

Nina, the undersides of the blues all look very similar. I wouldn't like to say for sure, but I showed it to a guy with a lot of experience and he said 'common blue'.

[Nina P]

Perhaps that was the one we have but as they are so very similar I wouldn't like to say, the only thing I can say is the common blue used to be uncommon, but when the wings were open the difference can be more noticeable, but with just underside to see they do look almost unidentifiable between them, I have got another book out to check but still cannot swear either way. I did think that they favoured chalk meadows, and where I live it is most definately acid meadows, but perhaps that is the only difference. You seem to have similar views your way to the surrounding places my way, but still rather delightful eh? carry on posting as I delight in your area, Nina.

[Surreybirder]

Thanks for your kind comments, Nina.

Today I added a new butterfly for my patch.... small copper. According to my book they are common but it's the first one I've ever seen. It looked more checkered than the abundant gatekeepers so I followed it. Fortunately it eventually perched. I couldn't get a good photo of it with an autofocus camera (with only 3x zoom) but at least it's recongnizable.

[steve covey]

Looks in good nick Ken, so probably a 2nd brood Small Copper [ 3 or 4 broods are normal in a year although in recent years they have been thin on the ground. So for one to be a 'new' patch species is interesting - maybe they are expanding in your region. Keep an eye out for more, particularly the Autumn [Sept/Oct] broods.
Steve.

[Surreybirder]

Thanks, Steve.
The small copper isn't necessarily new on my patch... it's the first one I've seen though. The meadows have not been sprayed for at least 10 years so the insect life is abundant. There were hundreds of gatekeepers yesterday, even though it was cool and windy, so it is easy to overlook something as small and flighty as a small copper.
But I'll certainly keep an eye out for more.
What other species might be present in the meadows (clay soil, mostly grasses and annual weeds)?
The list of what I have seen is earlier in this thread.
Ken

[Nina P]

Never seen one of them surreybirder, quite cute though, reimds me of Dear Bill Oddies scrunching down to see a dinky little butterfly on one of his wild programmes, but for the life of me can't remember the butterflies species, and the fact that we have the same conditions around us makes me realise what a lovely place the southern coastal counties are, Nina.

[Surreybirder]

Bill Oddie was fraternising with an Adonis blue! They occur on chalk downland I believe but I've yet to see one... in fact I'm a novice on butterflies.

[Nina P]

Nor I my friend, but I thought it was the other one, so my guess is that my butterfly was the common one then, like yours. good will in your hunting species not in our better known sector. Nina.

[Surreybirder]

There's always something of interest... today I saw a painted lady butterfly apparently mating with a gatekeeper. They were certainly 'joined' as they flew together several times. The Painted lady was doing all the work, though!

We did some pond dipping in our garden and caught what I think was a southern hawker larva. Click HERE (http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php?photo=8315)
We've got several frogs and froglets in our pond (which is about 10 feet across). We found a tadpole with only its rear feet developed.

[Surreybirder]

Originally posted by Surreybirder
There's always something of interest... today I saw a painted lady butterfly apparently mating with a gatekeeper. They were certainly 'joined' as they flew together several times. The Painted lady was doing all the work, though!

Guy Padfield has made the following comment, quoted with permission:

By definition, different species of butterfly do not breed together successfully (that is, producing viable offspring). Closely related species do hybridise, producing recognisable (and sometimes named) forms but the offspring cannot themselves breed. Chalkhill blues and adonis blues are known to hybridise in some parts of Europe, as are chalkhill and Spanish chalkhill blues. Brown argus and northern brown argus hybridise in northern England. But the combination of gatekeeper/painted lady sounds highly improbable! The genitalia of different species normally differ and preclude this sort of depravity but who knows, maybe by pure chance these two completely different species fit...

I would love to see the pictures, however bad they are when they come out. There is no future in this love story though.

[Nina P]

Has anyone been able to identify your fish that you found in the pond? hubby and I have been looking in our reference books and though the likeness is there, the tail looks too long for any of the sticklebacks, but the closest I think may be a cling fish, but that is no definate answer either, I'm watching this thread to see if anyone comes up with a definate answer, Nina.

[Surreybirder]

No progress on the fish, Nina!
New dragonfly for our garden yesterday: brown hawker.

[Surreybirder]

Anyone know this flower: there's a lot of it in our meadows at the moment. In fact most of the flowers seem to be yellow at the moment. This one forms quite big clumps, is about one foot high and has quite pale green leaves and stems

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Surreybirder,

I'd go for Common Fleabane Pulicaria dysenterica

Michael

[Nina P]

You just beat me Michael, I have just hauled out a load of that from my now pristine shrub border, but I know it will be back, but I cannot have it there when the judges arrive to see the garden, so I pulled it out, but where the roots are underground it will regrow quite quickly, as I must admit I do like it, where it was it would have been very noticeably out of place, but it is only temporarily missing. I'm still watching Surreybirder!!Nina.

[Surreybirder]

Thanks, Michael!
I'll have to behave if Nina is watching!
It's funny how nearly all the flowers seem to be yellow around here--ragwort, various Ranunculus sp, what I think could be bird's foot trefoil, and a vetch-like plant with yellow flowers. (Mind you, there's also plenty of the purply-blue vetch and some thistles! Even the odd poppy.)

[Nina P]

I don't know what you mean, I'm as broadminded as they come. and yes, there are two types of birdsfoot trefoil, and they are both yellow, but I think it is more to do with
a; time of year
b; the ammount of ultra violet light they give out.
I find that the yellow flowers will attract more insects at this time of year, but the other thing I find strange, is the yellow is always the most prevalent colour all year round. spring primroses and daffodils, dandelions and buttercups then hawkbits and trefoils, giving a continuous run of yellow into late summer. It must be something to do with ultra violet reflected! Nina.

[Surreybirder]

Originally posted by Surreybirder
Anyone know what this one is... I suspect it might be a stickleback. It was in our garden pond, about 2.5" long.

Nina, I think it must be a stickleback, possibly 10-spined Pungitius pungitius. I looked in Collins photo guide "Lakes, rivers, streams & ponds", and it seems to be the best fit--though others may disagree! Matures at 5 - 7 cms.

[Surreybirder]

I was wondering if anyone can tell me whether this is really a wild flower or an escape from a garden. There's a big clump of it in a patch of rough grass near our village. The flowers look a bit like antirhynums (snap dragons) but the leaves are thin and long.
Whatever it is, it's quite attractive!

[Nina P]

Here you are, Surreybirder, Toadflax linaria vulgaris upright stems, 12-30ins tall, originally growing among flax hence name.
commonly growing roadsides, railway banksides, snapdragon like flowers, late summer=autumn, common throughout England, Wales and southern Scotland. I have looked this up only to give you the latin name, common as muck here, on all roadside verges all the way to Salisbury. Lots of love, Nina.
3:-) B (:

[Nina P]

Sorry here is P.S. forgot 10 spined stickleback, thought it was slimmer at head region, but willing to go along with you to some extent, a friend thought it was some kind of sucker fish/ cleaner fish, seeing it on my PC, so you have an interested following here, Nina.

[Surreybirder]

Hi, Nina. thanks for the toadflax ID.
I'm really not a fish person and I realise that a side view would probably have been more helpful. But stickleback seems to be the leading candidate at the moment.
ATB
Ken

[Nina P]

Oh well, some you win some you don't, but I will go with the flow, quite happily, I must admit that I have been known to be well up on wild flowers, but I always have to look up the latin names of them, not so often on the cultivars though. I also have a friend who is well up on botanical areas, so have some guidance there, and a bit of competition too so speed is of the essence there. It just depends on when I get the chance to hog the PC. Nina.

[Surreybirder]

Nina, I tried to take a side view of the fish... at least I think it's the same one :D
Sorry the flash bounced back. Does this help with the ID at all?

[Surreybirder]

We have two yellow flowers that look a bit similar and both are quite common in the meadows. I think this one could be birds foot trefoil. But I'm by no means certain. If forms quite large clumps about a foot high.

[Surreybirder]

This one is a bit shorter and the leaves are a different shape. Also, some of the flowers seem to have a touch of red on them.
ID? :king:

[Surreybirder]

It's yellow plant day... this one is taller and less common but still forms quite a nice clump where it occurs.

[Surreybirder]

I'm pretty confident about this one... ragwort.:t:

[Charles Harper]

Wish I could help you with all this stuff, Kenneth, but I am following the narrative quietly-- it is an awesome task, documenting th entire biota of your patch, but immensely fascinating.

[Surreybirder]

Hi, Charles, I am not sure about the entire biota (new word to me) of my patch... but the beauty of a digital camera is that I can take lots of shots at very little expense to plague all the experts with!

[Nina P]

Right Surreybirder, ID yellow flowers,
1st picture, quietly confidant about this one, Lathyrus praetensis,
meadow vetchling.
2nd picture, were there two in this picture, as it looked like back
right, greater birdsfoot trefoil, lotus uliginosus, but
on the left, hairy leaves, dark mullein, verbascum
nigrum.
3rd picture, fairly certain Dyers greenweed, Genista tinctonia.
4th picture, you got it right..... well done, the dreaded ragwort.

Now , as to the fish, did it really have such a pink tinge, or was it just the prism effect from the light? if it really was that pink, then it must be a young Gudgeon, gobio gobio, but with reading up the ten spined stickleback,pungitius pungitius, they are only 2" long whereas the ordinary stickleback, gasterosteus aculeatus grows to 4" inlength. HELP! can I say anything else, but I am still not sure at all. I think we should just say a stickleback and be blowed, Nina.

[Surreybirder]

Thanks, Nina. I'll put up some more for you to ID soon if you can stand it!!
I'm not sure about two flowers in the third photo... I sort of assumed that the reddish colour was just the btf dying back. But I'll have a closer look when I'm next out walking the dog.
What ref. book are you using for the fish? I've only got Collins Photo Guide to Lakes, Rivers, Streams & Ponds of Britain & North-west Europe by Fitter and Manuel.
According to their drawings my fish doesn't look like a minnow, gudgeon, three-spined stickleback ("diminutive"). But I just don't know for sure.
Ken

[Nina P]

Try and get the base as well as it can be the difference for error or not.
I am thoroughly enjoying this ID lark, even makes me feel useful too.
You have a vague idea about the trefoils, trouble is there are a lot of them, you have Birdsfoot trefoil, which is a creeper along the ground trefoil, you have the greater birdsfoot trefoil which is an upright form, then you have the horseshoe trefoil, which is in between the other two, which does have a more red tinge to the flowers, but can be either upright or sometimes laid down. Very confusing indeed! Good luck hunting for ID work, Nina.

[Surreybirder]

Could this be tansey?

[Surreybirder]

This one grows in some of the damper areas... in fact it is the dominant plant in a field between two streams that has been designated a Site of Local Conservation Interest. Unfortunately the landowner mows it several times a year so it's not as verdant as it used to be.

[Surreybirder]

Could this be common knapweed?

[Surreybirder]

This spiky grass only grows in one small low-lying area of a field that often floods.

[Surreybirder]

And I've only noticed this one next to the spikey grass (above)!

[Nina P]

Here goes then Ken,
1/ prickly sow thistle, sonchus aspen
2/meadowsweet, filipendula ulmaria.
3/commonknapweed, correct,centaurea nigra.
4/ boggy ground indicated by compact rush, juncus confolomeratus.
Hope you like the latin additions, Nina.

[Nina P]

The last one must have gone on after I was giving up the answers, and then I found this one when looking at the rush and thought I'd better tell you that there was another pink flower next to the rush, Redshank or Redleg, polygonum persicaria. then I noticed your fifth picture. So I have answered here for five. Nina.

[Surreybirder]

Thanks, Nina, you're a genius!
There'll be more.....!!!

[Surreybirder]

I'm fairly confident that this one is (dead) sorrel

[Surreybirder]

And would this be oxe-eye daisy? The leaves are quite filamenty... unlike the plant in my garden which I bought from a garden centre as 'oxe-eye daisy' which has broad, jagged leaves and grows about 3 ft tall.

[Nina P]

Ken, I need to know if the "Ox Eye Daisy", can be one of four forms so :- Does it smell, and if it does, is the smell nice or not, one can smell like chamomile as it could be Scentless mayweed matricaria perforata,Scented Mayweed,chamomilla recutica,or Stinking Chamomile, anthemis cotula, Very like the Anthemis of the cultivated variety. I ruled out the fourth Sea mayweed, matricaria maritima, as the seaside is where that one is located, and from your area, you are not by the sea, and the leaves are not fleshy enough.
The common sorrel, or for the common name most people use Dock, rumex acetosa. You did have the sorrel part correct.
The OX Eye Daisy, I have another common name, of summer nanny, smelly Nanny, or stinking nanny. but that name may be only Dorset dialectish, Nina.

[Surreybirder]

Silly me! I think the 'eye' made me put an e on ox!
I'll have a good sniff tomorrow!
Thanks for the ID of common sorrel, Nina.
Ken

[Nina P]

Remember no smell, nice smell Chamomile, stonking stink. thats how to be certain, Nina.

[Surreybirder]

As far as I can tell it's scentless mayweed. I don't have a great sense of smell but all I could detect was the very merest hint of a grassy smell... certainly nothing comparable with camomile.

Thanks for your help, Nina.

[Surreybirder]

I've got three photos of flowers that I think I've already sussed out.... but any second opinion would be helpful.
#1: common spotted orchid (reasonably common here)?

[Surreybirder]

#2: bitter vetchling (sorry photo is not very good).

[Surreybirder]

And #3: bladderwort

[Nina P]

Alright then Ken,
1/ Heath spotted orchid, Dactylorhiza Ericetorum, likes moist acid heath on open grassland.
2/ Common Vetch, Vica Sativa, classic 1-2 red purple flowers, and from april - september.
3/ tricky one, I'd say White campion, silene alba, as Bladder campion, silene vulgaris needs limey soil, but the proof is, Sticky hairy leaves and stems indicate the former, grey smooth stems would indicate the latter.
Does that help you to distinguish from the forms I have given you. Nina.

[Surreybirder]

Thanks, Nina... but I don't think it's heath orchid... we don't have anything approaching heathland round here--good old clay!
Nor do we have any lime so it's probably white campion. If I can still find any I'll examine the leaves and stems.

[Nina P]

Don't be too sure Ken, if they come up every year in the same spot, they are from rhizomes, and also need a very special fungal assistance to aid their growth, so initially they need to be started on heathland, not necessarily to be heathland now. In exactly the same way the marsh orchid need to star t their growth on marsh, all they need is to be fairly near the water table to stay put. Trust me, My dad was a very keen wild orchid enthusiast, and my backside was trained very early to appreciate them.........
Just to say He may have died three years ago but his wild orchid still flowers in the pot with his lillium regale..... True, and it has travelled from Dorset to Wales, FACT... It was in full flower on June 30th. and that is the heath orchid....
Have been very busy today in the garden as judging takes place on Friday, and although it is 2 years early for the top half and 4 years early for the bottom half I have been badgered into showing it as all the housing officers reckon this is a very special garden, well tended, but with wildlife aspects, and utilitarian and child friendly, I personally don't expect to achieve anything as it is way to soon, but in for a pound in for a penny. Hope you find the book from which I get a lot of my references, it was a very good, second hand birthday present, originally put out by the AA.... I still rate it as the best reference book ever printed, considering it covers every countryside aspect, and is still accurate after 30years.... that takes some beating don't you think. Nina.

[Surreybirder]

Niina,
Good luck with the garden competition... I'm sure you'll get a prize one day if not today!
What is the book called that the AA put out??
On the orchids, I'll see if I've got any other photos. I assume that we only have one type. I know that some of the ones I've looked at have spotted leaves.
BTW are heath orchids uncommon? Anything I can do to get our local meadows declared an SSSI would be a help... I've been sending the county conservation officer a list of sightings to try and get him involved!
I'll be in Newcastle for a week, so 'normal service will be resumed...'
Ken

[Surreybirder]

Here's another local orchid pic... not too sharp but note spotted leaves.

[Surreybirder]

As I've mentioned in my thread on hoverflies, I'm in a state of confusion having had most of the ones I've photoed identified as several different species.
I've now put them up on a web page HERE (http://www.geocities.com/kennethnoble/)
so that if anyone wants to debate any of the identities, they can...
I realise that there are limits to how far you can get from photos but I'm not convinced the limit has yet been reached!

[Nina P]

Good morning Ken,
All Orchids are to be protected, and this orchid is definately Heath Spotted Orchid...
6"-8" tall Dactylorhiza ericetorum, moist, acid heaths or grassland. From the BOOK OF THE BRITISH COUNTRYSIDE AA Drive publications first printing in 1973 A da*n good book for just about everything countrywide.
I expected you to be a working chap so not up for quizzing, but then a lot of people work from home these days, and MY mind is still in the ancient realms of the seventy's, apart from when it comes to plants, where I found this year I'm about ten years ahead. They have just released one acer as new this year that I have had for years!!!! Not what you know, but, who you know! applies here. Nina, PS the picture I have in this book the heath orchid does have spotted leaves, hence the spotted, not streaked.

[Surreybirder]

Hi, there, Nina.
Yep... you're right. Heath spotted orchid they be.
When you say that orchids are 'protected'... what does that mean in practice? I believe that under the 1975 Countryside and Wildlife Act there were 22 protected plants... but the max. fine for picking them was only £100. I hope things have been strengthened since then!

On your other point, I do much of my work on a computer, so I usually find the time to look at some 'leisure' sites during the day or evening....

[jayhunter]

I thought it was a stickleback, looked at your ringlet photo with interest to seeif it was the little fellow I saw down at my Mums this weekend. But could not distinguish any eyes on the inside of the fore wings.

[Surreybirder]

I don't know if you are referring to my pic of an Arran Brown, Bob... but I doubt if the Cheshire peaks are high enough for them. I would guess that you saw either a gatekeeper or a meadow brown... but it's only a guess.
Ken

[Nina P]

There was a case of desecration by a farmer on his land, he sprayed weedkiller on the field of marsh orchids that were in the field across the road from where I used to live, on the banks of the river Avon, I can remember the thrill of their sheer bounty, everywhere you looked there were thousands, and they looked terriffic, but my dad wouldn't come over there and tell us what they were, (sorry, should explain us, me and my brother and sister) so as he wouldn't come to them we decided to take one, (I mean exactly one) just to get some identification, I can tell you we didn't sit down for a week, and the lecture about never picking wild flowers...... He went on and on, not sorry it's my fault for not taking five precious minutes to see and explain, and it was definately before the 70's, they were protected then, as three backsides were to know. I have always listened to my children and now to my grandchildren, and any other child interested to know, so I have always tried to help, and show them where to find out, using all forms of education.
Sorry gone off on one, as far as I know, all orchids are protected, as the farmer who sprayed the orchids got a very hefty fine, but that didn't revive the orchids, I was telling my botanist friend about the field when she told me not to go back, and what had happened to them, and that if I saw one I'd be exceptionally lucky, I don't know if this is just a local by law or if it is country wide, but if you really want to know, first ask your local council, if they don't know, register it as something you would like to have a presrevation order put on...... Well worth it as it shouldn't cost you a penny. Nina.

[jayhunter]

Hi Ken, I was looking on your website at the Ringlet picture although first time I hadn't realised you could click on and get some better views. My butterfly was small brown same sort of size as the Ringlet but its eyes/rings were located inside of fore wings not outside of hind wings as per Ringlet. Couldn't see Gatekeeper as he didn't download when I went into your butterfly page, I was at my Mother's in Hampshire on Sunday and trying to get a good picture of a Painted Lady at the time. Will have to consult my books tonight, thanks for your help. Bob

[jayhunter]

Hi Nina,
I thought the seeds of Orchids could lie dormant in the ground for years is it not possible that some have since germinated? Have you not wondered what has happened since?

[jayhunter]

Hi Ken,
On consulting my reference books last night and my wife to help me we think the butterfly with eyes inside the fore wings was a Woodland Ringlet.

[Nina P]

Yes jayhunter they definately can, but they rely on specific fungal spores to germinate and most weedkillers contain fungicides which destroys their ability to germinate, another cause of human desecration. Yes I have been back, and despite the greembelt this place now has a barn, and other out buildings on it, even more tragic, as it used to be such a delightful walk along the river bank, and hearing the plop of a bank vole dropping into the water, and watching the ripples caused by the fish surfacing for flies... Oh for those careless days of childhood!!! I could so easily drift back, but we all have to go on. Nina.

[jayhunter]

Nice one Nina I still remember the water meadows out of the back garden of my Grand parents in Wickham, where I used to go and watch the fly fishermen catch brown trout in the river Meon. I was more interested in Dragonflies, butterflies and sticklebacks in those days. Saw my first water vole in ages the other weekend when I was out with my grandsons, pointed him out to the boys and told them about Toad and Ratty from Wind in the Willows. One way to recapture our childhood is through the Grand children.

[Nina P]

Touche Bob, nice to have the patience that comes with maturity, but the relief of being able to hand them back at the end of the day is immeasureable, and one of the best ways to reminisce in teaching the little ones the pleasures of our youth, I normally regale without the horrid bits, only the fun bits. Nina.

[jayhunter]

Yes Nina I know what you mean I am the same. I give them little anecdotes such as the time I came across a fisherman with his trout laying on the grass dead as I thought. I put my little finger in to see how sharp his teeth were, when to my dismay it clamped shut and I leapt out of my skin much to the amusement of the fisherman. I suppose he thought that it would be the last he heard from me as I was constantly asking questions, as he was the only tall person around. Now we touch the grandsons not to talk to strange men, the water vole by the way was down the Blackwater estuary in Essex haven't seen one up here in Cheshire.

[Nina P]

I can still hear the distincive plop when I go into town, as the river Allen runs right through the shopping area, and there is a nice little seating area where you can just sit and watch them at play, along with the brown rats that are also there aplenty, seems strange to say that all this wildlife continues with shoppers totally oblivious of what is right there in front of them.
Must say that I find it quite strange, and if you follow the river Stour there are some white birds nesting in the trees I think they are Egrets, but I can't get close enough to get a proper view, but they look like the birds on the American Everglades, fascinating seeing them here all year round. Nina.

[Surreybirder]

I took a few more butterfly pix--mostly disappointing (I still haven't managed to get a decent shot of an Essex skipper) but I was quite pleased with this gatekeeper.

[Surreybirder]

For some reason this "red" admiral seems to have lost most of its red in the photo.

[Surreybirder]

a common blue

[Surreybirder]

and a female common blue

[Nina P]

Those are super photo's Ken, and the female common blue seems to be on the birdsfoot trefoil, or greater birdsfoot trefoil.
Welcome back, as I've missed the challenges you set me!
I noticed you had a quiet time in Newcastle, but then sometimes you need quiet to set you up for the next flourish. Nina.

[Surreybirder]

Thanks, Nina.
There don't seem to be so many flowers out at the moment.... judging by the amount of thistledown the local gardeners are in for a busy spring!
But I can show you a bit more of the trefoil... you can see the 'bird's foot'!
Ken

[Surreybirder]

Nice hummingbird hawk-moth in the garden today (18th August).

[Nina P]

Bet you can't get that on camera, Ken. A friend in Hereford tried to take a picture of one of them in June, but would the blighter stay still, so got blurring, and I have yet to see one live shot of one of them that has no movement trouble!! Nina.

[Andrew]

It is a very long time since we had a Hummingbird Hawk Moth in our garden on the fuschias.

[Surreybirder]

Nina, I didn't even have time to get my camera!
But I did get some recognizable shots of one in Cyprus with a camcorder last year. Only problem is that it's an analogue camcorder so I cannot 'videograb' stills from it.
Any views on the trefoil (above)?
Ken

[Nina P]

Yes Ken, Sorry I shopuld have said, Lotus Corniculatus, or Birdsfoot trefoil, the commonest grassland trefoil, and staple diet of many butterflies. Not the greater birdsfoot trefoil. OK Ken.
Regards NIna.

[Surreybirder]

Thanks, Nina.

[Nina P]

Hi Ken, that looks like a leafcutter bee, but I have not got the latin name for it. Rather notorious on roses, but what that leaf is I wouldn't like to guarantee, but it does remind me of Aquilegia, so ? leafcutter bee. Nina.

[Surreybirder]

Hi, Nina.
I think you're right about the aquilegia, our garden is full of it! (=granny's bonnet?)
But I think it's a hoverfly (only two wings?).

[Nina P]

It was only a suggestion, as the only picture I have is a blurred image so can't tell if one or two wings, and at the time I'd had a few down the pub with the family, and went to check my emails when I'd got back.
Funny thing was the picture looked clear then? Perhaps I should stay in a state of innebriation if I can see clearly then. Nina.

[Nina P]

Sorry Ken, I know I thought it was Aquilegia, but I forget other people will recognise it as Granny bonnets, but there are many varieties and all under Aquilegia, I have the Mc Kanna giants too, but as I say I tend to latin first with cultivars, forgetting others will not necessarily know what I'm on about.
One slapped Wristy here!! Nina.

[Surreybirder]

Nothing wrong with Aquilegia :D
I'm hoping the two hovers will return as they were quite impressive. Unfortunately, being a Bank Holiday, it's been dull and drizzly so far today!

"Don't drink and drive--ID hoverflies instead" Do you think it will catch on?

[Elizabeth Bigg]

Hi Surreybirder - this part of Surrey is certainly dull, with a lightish breeze to dry the washing, but no sign of any drizzle just yet. Thanks for the warning - maybe it's coming my way right now!

[Surreybirder]

Glad to be of service, Elizabeth!
Where is Mayford? (I'm on the extreme eastern edge of Surrey.)

[Elizabeth Bigg]

Hi again, Surreybirder - Mayford is on the southern outskirts of Woking, about a third of the way down towards Guildford. According to Autoroute, we are about 27 miles west of where you are (I looked on your website) - it's still dry here right now, but I'll check to see if the washing is dry yet!

[Surreybirder]

It's dry here, too, now ;)

But the overcast skies mean that there's not much to see outside.

[Nina P]

Hi Ken and Elizabeth, Had a super day today, got the washing dry and was out and about with my dear Graham as he has had some time off, now on the babysitting lark after visiting relatives with the little man, and eventually got him settled down, as he hates mummy working evenings, it is aways a bit traumatic, so I try to make bedtime fun, and have to bite my tongue when he decides that he won't sleep until mum is home.
I wonder how long before I have to wear autumn clothes as I have been living in shorts since the middle of may, only covering up when going out special places, but home I live and die in shorts!! Nina.

[Surreybirder]

Make the most of it Nina, it won't last!

Had a fairly unusual sighting last night. Our dog was quite jumpy in our back porch. When I turned the light on a small (presumably juvenile) toad was hopping around. I tried to take a photo but the light was too poor. I don't mind handling frogs but for some reason I didn't fancy catching this one in my hands. So I persuaded him/her to jump into a flower pot and then dropped her into the shrubbery outside. It was only about 2" long and all warty.

[Nina P]

Hi Ken, I do handle frogs and toads, but I always have to chill my hands first, as I have no wish to burn them, if there isn't time then I grab the nearest thing that won't harm them to lift them with, I have a slight thermostat problem at the moment, always too hot, and no good for pastry making either.
I'm not afraid of most things, but I do draw the line at spiders, for some insane reason I am unable to touch large-ish spiders. but lizards snakes and most other things I'm OK, and I'm a good moth rescuer from the moth-o-phobics within this houssehold, I even have to remove crickets for the family, especially those huge green ones that always seem to find the bedrooms. Quite funny really, as my son was the biggest wimp when it came to them but then he could get rid of spiders. Nina.

[Surreybirder]

I'm with you on the spiders!
Never had occasion to handle a cricket. I once caught a swallow which had got into our holiday house. It was a wonderful feeling, so delicate and yet so full of life!

[Nina P]

Swallows have a special thing, we used to have them nest in our barn , on the farm, and on one occasion they were swooping and fussing in the doorway, so I investigated, and found one baby hanging from the nest, with it's leg caught up in some mesh, I went and got a ladder and some scissors, climbed the ladder(I'm a Vertigo sufferer) caught hold of this poor little thing, cut off the net as best I could, then replaced it in the nest, removed the ladder and told the parent birds to keep it warm, three days later it flew around me as if thanking me. Fron that day for two years this little one (always had the mark on its leg) used to sit on the gutter and wake me for work, now they make my spirits lift on the first singer of spring. Nina.

[James Armstrong]

Hi Nina, This is Geraldine, replying on James's line,
Is what you identify as Dyer's Greenweed the same plant as I have always called Agrimony? I didn't know it was a dyer's plant. I'll have to try it. And the Redshank or Redleg, is that a sort of Bistort?
My old dog, who died five years ago, taught me a lot about herbs and plants. He used to eat comfrey for his arthritus, pellitory-of the wall for kidney complaints, and elm leaves for upset tummies.
It was because of him I got interested in herbal medicines, of the home-made variety, rather than the fifteen quid a bottle from the health-shop kind. Together, we used to roam the hills, and collect things, sloes for gin, blackberries and nuts for the most wonderful fruit crumbles I've ever eaten, crab apples for jelly, mushrooms for breakfast, rose hips for syrup, and wild thyme and origano. Also firewood, until I injured my back.
Forgot to log James out and myself in, in my enthusiasm to reply,

Geraldine.

:hippy:

[Nina P]

Dear Geraldine,
Yes on both counts, and "elm" jeepers, I haven't seen one for years, not since the 80's anyway, I thiought they had been totally wiped out with the dreadded dutch elm disease.
When I was little we had three in a row and one of them had tawny owl chicks that got blown out of the trees, and I spotted this one on the ground, and asked my dad what was wrong with it? he said to leave it there as the parents were still feeding it, and the same evening I saw the parents feed it with a whole mouse, stunning stuff!! chance would be a fine thing nowadays!
Have a peep at the area I live in now on the Dorset News thread.
Perhaps I should put more in on the plants side too. Nina.

[James Armstrong]

And fantastic pictures, Surrybirder, thanks for sharing them.

Still Geraldine, on James line!

And if anyone wants any spiders picking up and putting out, I can do that. Can't do much else that's useful....

:hippy:

[James Armstrong]

Thanks, Nina,
I'll look on the Dorset News thread. And yes please, more stuff on plants, I'm obsessed with trying to identify wild flowers, often get it wrong, I'm sure. It would be great to have someone to ask.
My front garden if full of wild flowers from seeds collected, also corn and oats from the birdseed, and herbs. I've heard people call it the untidy garden, what do they know! The birds and I like it, and the garden spiders.
Still Geraldine, going to bed now, talk more tomorrow. Lovely to meet you.
:hippy:

[Nina P]

I needed some kip too, as trying to keep up with all the threads + emails buzzing my way got a tad tricky, because I'd had a few, it got a little out of hand. I really should do a double check on what I'd replied last night Geraldine, as I vaiguely recall something about agrimony, and I think I may have answered you wrong, with my eyesight needing changes of specs, I'm about to re-locate the what and where, and get back to you. Nina.

[Nina P]

Right, Geraldine, The Dyers green weed, had smooth stems but the common agrimony that you refer to is hairy stemmed and latin name is Agrimonia eupatoria, and the flowers are smaller, and form burrs when gone to seed! Does that help you? Nina,
PS some peoplle class similar plants as all in the agrimony genre, but for herbal remedies it is important to get the right one.

[Surreybirder]

We have some plants round here that produce large burrs (about 1" across) that really stick to clothes and the dog. We used to throw them at each other as children. What plant would that be, Nina?

[Nina P]

From the size you describe, purple flowers before coould well be the burdock as used in dandelion and burdock! Nina.

[Surreybirder]

We've got plenty of dandelions, too, Nina. So if anyone fancies some brewing...!

[Nina P]

Hi Ken, I did think after posting, that those burrs, they were round, weren't they, as if they were eliptical they'd be Teasels, for which the golfinches would say thank you!!
I have got the cultivated version, Eryngium, or sea holly, which is shoeing well at the moment with pale lavender florets poking out of the spiky ball of bracts, and it is looking very smart, which it won't when the birds start getting the seeds out. Nina.

[Geraldine]

Thanks, Nina,
It's definitely Agrimony then, that I know. I don't think I've seen a smooth stemmed variety. I'll keep my eyes open for it. Do you know the Latin name for Dyers Greenweed? :flowers:

[Surreybirder]

Originally posted by Nina P
Hi Ken, I did think after posting, that those burrs, they were round, weren't they, as if they were eliptical they'd be Teasels, for which the golfinches would say thank you!!
I have got the cultivated version, Eryngium, or sea holly, which is shoeing well at the moment with pale lavender florets poking out of the spiky ball of bracts, and it is looking very smart, which it won't when the birds start getting the seeds out. Nina.

It's not teasle--we have that in our garden (as well as sea holly!).
The sea holly seems very popular with the hoverflies and bees.

[Nina P]

Geraldine I did give the latin name for dyers greenweed, Genista tinctonia, but often mentioned as one of the forms of agrimony, probably as it looks very similar, another one that falls into this category is mellilot tall yellow with individual star flowers, but not as tall as mullein. but all seem to be used in herbal remedies. Nina.

[James Armstrong]

Sorry, Nina, wasn't concentrating. I used to collect great mullein flowers, and put them in clear honey, for when we had sore throats. :hippy: Sometimes put a clove of garlic in too. That used to chase the germs away! Also made raspberry vinegar for colds. My sons used to look forward to being ill to get that! I used to pickle garlic, the same way as onions, too. That sorted out the men from the boys. I don't seem to find time now-a-days. I used to make comfrey cream for my bad back, and turmeric cream for my aunt's psoriasis, I'd forgotten about all that.

[Geraldine]

That was me on James's number, obviously. :hi:

[Nina P]

guessed as much, I can remember blackurrant vinegar for colds, and goosegrass poultices for abcesses/infected wounds, and suchlike... some very nice some not nice at all!! Nina.

[Surreybirder]

I'm beginning to see a few 'autumn' birds on my patch (i.e. species that haven't bred locally). There was a sand martin earlier in the week and today I saw a hobby.

[Nina P]

Have you had as sudden and sharp weather change, the weather started to turn yesterday, and the temperature plunged about 8 degrees in just over the hour here, but I also started to have table visitors yesterday morning.
I also have very little control on the left arm today, in spite of extra painrelief.
This has not been unexpected though my body has been saying so for at least three days now. Nina.

[Andrew]

I woke up this morning and found a strange occurance, it was cold and raining!!!

I hope to notch up a decent sighting on my next walk along my patch. Considering the time of the year, do we look harder at our patches?? I don't think I do but I shall see come September.

[Surreybirder]

Sorry about the arm, Nina.
I must admit that I didn't notice any very dramatic change--trouble with being in the office all week (apart from Monday). I was quite surprised when my wife told me that it had been raining all day today!
(At least I avoided the power failure last night :D)

Andrew, I think I do try a bit harder during the migration periods. It's not intentional! Also, as there are fewer 'distractions' (butterflies and dragonflies) I probably devote a higher percentage of my attention to birds. I still haven't seen some of the common migrants this year (whinchat and wheatear) so I shall certainly be hoping to see them in the next few days.
Ken

[Andrew]

Then I wish you all the best for the birds you would like to see on your patch.

[Nina P]

I'd love to see a wheatear in my patch but have never had the pleasure, but a friend in Hereford sent me a super pic she took, and at first I mistook it for a nuthach, as there was just nothing around it to set a size scale too, and it was so clear, I reckon she was right next to it. It wasn't until I looked again that I noticed the few differences, and wished I could have been with her at that very moment.
I'm going to have to get a camera or learn to stop shaking whilst taking pictures! Nina.

[Surreybirder]

Well, despite the lovely sunshine today I didn't manage to see any definite migrants--although I think I caught a glimpse of a willow warbler which doesn't breed here.
I tried 'squeaking'* to see if I could get anything to come out of the hedges (which are now resplendent with loads of blackberries, sloes, elderberries etc). Because of (or despite?) this I saw a male blackcap, lots of blue, great and long-tailed tits and a nuthatch.
Other birds seen:

gt spotted w'pecker
green w'pecker
bullfinch
jay
kestrel
greenfinch.
But at this time of year the bird population can change overnight!

*Squeaking is a technique developed by American birders. You kiss the back of your hand noisily whilst drawing in your breath--and hope that no one is watching. Some people are amazingly effective with it. One of my friends has called in a little owl using it. For those who are too embarrassed to try it, an alternative that I learned in New Zealand is to wipe a bit of polystyrene on a wetted (i.e. spat upon) bit of glass. I've had excellent results with that!

[Nina P]

Now that is what I call amazing, I have been quite successful with my mimicry of some birds, mostly owls and have had several respond to my calls, the robin blackbird and wren are my usual followers, but I'm going to have to try that one now!! I don't care if people think I'm daft, 'cos I am already regerded as that!! Nina.

[Surreybirder]

I took my telescope out and had a look at Mars the night before last. Rather disappointing--just looked like a glowing ember to me.
Hummingbird hawkmoth in neighbours' garden today. Not much 'different' on my patch but nice view of a lesser whitethroat.

[Surreybirder]

Nina, I had a look and there are still a few swallows around.
I was pleased to see two small copper butterflies on ragwort in a neighbour's garden... only my 2nd and 3rd on my patch. In another neighbour's garden there is a small white buddleia in full bloom. It's only about 2ft high but it had three red admirals and a hummingbird hawkmoth at 5 pm.
Also seen yet another large unidentified hoverfly (bumble bee sized). I'll attach a pic in a separate post as I'm in the 'wrong' box.

[Surreybirder]

Nina?

[Surreybirder]

And is this purple loosestrife?

[Surreybirder]

I think this is a shield bug. He (or she) would be briliantly camouflaged if s/he had remembered to stay on the leaves rather than the rose hips.

[Surreybirder]

A friend thinks this might be Roesel's Bush-cricket--if so, it's quite a rarity. But it is common on my patch. Can anyone confirm or otherwise the identity? It was about 2cm long and the photo was taken in early July.

[Surreybirder]

this bush cricket was on a rose in our garden (there were two females right next to each other, in fact). Anyone know the species?

PS I only noticed later that she's missing a back leg. I suspect that the other one was a rival and nipped it off?

later edit Now identified as dark bush-cricket. Thanks, Steve.

[Charles Harper]

Ever consider an entomology course, Kenneth?

[Surreybirder]

Originally posted by Charles Harper
Ever consider an entomology course, Kenneth?

No need with so many experts on Birforum.net!

Perhaps when I retire!! Actually I think I would rather do an ecology course. I don't fancy all the close-up anatomy work on insects! And it wouldn't include birds, flowers, spiders, etc

[Surreybirder]

I have created a web page bringing together all the hoverflies that I've photographed in my garden in case anyone's interested--and I'm removing the pix from this thead which is getting far too long!

Click here for Surreybirder's garden hoverflies (http://www.geocities.com/kennethnoble/)

[steve covey]

The reddish hoverfly is either Rhingia campestris or R. rostrata, but more likely to be the former [being the comoner and more widespread of the two]. As usual with hoverflies their colouring is variable and the 'clincher' features are not visible in the pics!

[Surreybirder]

It seems to be cricket week. My wife found a late instar oak bush-cricket on the sea holly in our garden today (3 Sept.)

[Surreybirder]

Does anyone know what this small insect (<1cm) was that landed on a sedum in our garden. It looks a bit ant-like to me.

Later edit:
I've now looked in Chinery and have come to the conclusion that it's probably an ichneumon... a large group of insects that are part of the Order Hymenoptera (wasps, ants, bees, sawflies etc). They have similar grisley habits to the Tachinids (see next page), eating their host larvae from the inside out.


:C xxxxx:C
xxxx:C
:C xxxxx:C

[Nina P]

Hi Ken, I'm back now and yes to burdock, yes to loosestrife, yes to both crickets, but the ant? I think I'd try a form of Low Wasp, as the feelers are so curved, I cannot locate it in any of my new books so suggest locating an entemologist, try zoo for guidance?
You are getting good Ken!! Nina.

[Surreybirder]

Thanks for the comments, welcome back, Nina.
Someone else has suggested that the insect might be an icumen. I'll have to do some further research.
Ken

[Nina P]

I just noticed you've changed your atavar, to a butterfly that I noticed around Tamar lakes, or very similar, the one I saw had an eye on the upper underwing, but was definately as yellow as that on your atavar, I put it down to one of the small heaths, but it was so active I couldn't see it from above. I tried taking it's picture but haven't taken it from the camera yet and haven't succeeded in reducing pictures for posting on this site. Nina.

[Surreybirder]

Nina, the butterfly I've used for my atavar is a small copper, which occurs infrequently around my home area--but is not uncommone nationally. There's a better pic at:
http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showphoto.php?photo=10316&password=&sort=1&cat=512&page=1
I'm not sure what you saw... quite a novice at butterflies myself!
Ken

[Nina P]

I respect that, and I feel it's good to learn from each other, and best not to be an authority on any subject, just a keen follower, that way you don't feel too stupid when you are wrong. I admit to making mistakes on many occasions, and say that as I have got older I have forgotten most of what I've learnt, which is very true, but I do still try to keep up with my education, as you are never too old to learn. Nina.

[Surreybirder]

Wise words, Nina.
Spotted flycatcher, blackcap, turtle dove, little owl, kingfisher, GSW and green woodpecker, quite a few swallows--highlights of the last 24 hours on my patch. Also, more small coppers, several commas, and a mating pair of hawkers (migrant?). (Sorry it's a poor photo--they were too far away, really, for my 3x zoom digital camera. But it's fascinating to see them flying around in the 'wheel position'.)


Later Edit Migrant hawkers, I'm told.

[Surreybirder]

It seems to be a great year for small coppers. Here's one that was in our garden today.

[Surreybirder]

The wasps seem to like our bay tree in particular.

[Surreybirder]

This is a Tachnid called Tachina fera.
The flies in this family have larvae which live inside other insects eating their internal organs until they eventually kill them, and then emerge.
:C xxxxx:C
xxxx:C
:C xxxxx:C

[Nina P]

What brilliant pictures Ken, Love them all.....
Did you plant the sedum (iceplant) for the purpose of attracting the insects? I did and have two different plants, one a pink the other a red one, both do a good job at attraction! Nina.

[Surreybirder]

Nina,
I must admit that I didn't realize that sedums were so good for insects when we first arrived at this house. The sedums were already there... but I'm happy to have them now!
I'm slowly learning what a huge diversity of insects there is!!

[Nina P]

Tell you what Ken, plant out some Poached egg plants early next year, Generally sold as poached egg plants but also known as Limnanthes Douglasii they bring the early insects in the spring, actually it's not too late to set the seeds in the garden now as theya re hardy annuals and tend to seed themselves about a bit, but definately a naturalists must plant. Nina.

[Surreybirder]

Hi, Nina. We had loads of peps in our garden for several years. But this year, as we are on the verge of moving house, we have been rather zealous in 'tidying up' the borders.
Cannot wait to move when we'll be able to start planting lots of stuff to attract wildlife--and to dig a new pond!
I'll have to start a new thread as well.
Ken

[Nina P]

Oh dear Ken, what will surrey do without you? How far are you going? and I really do hope the move goes well! Nothing more trying that house moves they can be so traumatic!! I have had several and seriously hope never to move again, as the last one was the most difficult.
Where will you be reporting from then? as I will try and follow what you are up to. Nina.

[Surreybirder]

Nil desperandum, if that's the right phrase, Nina. We're only moving to Lingfield, about 7 miles S of here!
I'll start a new thread though as this one is ridiculously long.
Beautifully warm and sunny again today, despite the dire forecast. I'm 94% certain a yellow wagtail flew over this morning. It gave a single sharp call and was bright yellow underneath. But I'm notoriously bad on recognising/remembering call notes. As I once commented, I sometimes feel as if I'm birding with one ear tied behind my back.
Another small copper today, obviously a good year for them.
And a lovely view of a migrant hawker yesterday.

[Nina P]

Hi Ken, why change thread, I thought you were trying for a record thread!!!
Hubby reading over my shoulder said this" Another small copper today? most of the coppers around here are over six foot" see what I have to contend with? A dry Cornish wag.... Nina.

[Nina P]

Should have told you I'm birding with one eye,ear, arm,leg and Half a backside, so no wonder I'm such a sad old has been, can't remember, can't do, useless woman, so all I have going for me is humour, no wonder I like so many witicisims, hence our long marriage, the Cornish man and I spend more time trying to recall favourite jokes, and his memory is much better than mine!! Mind you he is younger too!! Nina.

[Surreybirder]

Originally posted by Nina P

Hubby reading over my shoulder said this" Another small copper today? most of the coppers around here are over six foot"

Very droll! He'll get us moved to the 'ruffled feathers' section if he goes on like that. Lucky he didn't see my photo of the painted lady and the gatekeeper! And why was the admiral so red?

I'm sure your 50% that's working is seeing a lot more than most people, Nina! Age is, at least in part, an attitude of mind. My mum used to talk about 'old Mrs so-and-so' who was probably 10 years her junior!

[Nina P]

Ken, Most of his jokes are on ruffled feathers, Grahams Jokes, up to part four, all posted in my name but with his name on the title, as he cannot type them up himself, but that is another story altogether.... And a long one.
My problems started from birth, and increased with time so I got used to them gradually, until the last two, four years apart, brought about the sudden demise but increased the sense of humour by just as much, I generally refer to myself as the half woman, as joking is the easiest way to cope. I have been investigating the digiscoping forum here and think I might spend a fair bit of time reading the advice of all the posters there, I might learn a thing or two there, even find out how to reduce the number of pixels needed to post here, but I will have to study hard to understand them, just like learning another language eh!

[Surreybirder]

Good luck with the digiscoping. I've tried it a bit with a hand-held camera and had one or two nice ones (and an awful lot of rubbish). I'm sure someone will advise you on how to edit photos. It obviously depends what software you are using. I use something called Adobe PhotoDeluxe Home Edition 4.0 which came free with the camera.
Ken

[Surreybirder]

This pond in our village is a bit too disturbed to be great for wildlife--and I think that the fish keep the no. of invertebrates down. But moorhens bred successfully and this is where I saw the migrant and southern hawkers a couple of days ago.

[Surreybirder]

What is it with bush-crickets and legs? This is the second one-back-legged one I've found on our roses..... I know it's a different one because this is a male and the other was a female (claspers rather than ovipositor).

[steve covey]

Perhaps this male and the previous female got carried away during a bout of violent mating!! [They are both Dark Bush-crickets]They probably can't go far - hopping around in circles;o))

[Surreybirder]

thanks for your 'circular argument' Steve.

I was pleased to get a new 'garden tick' in the form of a wheatear this morning. It was standing on a patch of bare soil where we've filled in our garden pond ('cos the people buying our house didn't want it--in case you're wondering). But later it hopped around a bit.

I tried to take some photos with my digital camera and the 'scope but it's not easy hand-held! This one shows it near our roses--Rosa rugosa or hedgehog rose, with masses of vicious spines; but the greenfinches and bramblings (sometimes) love the hips in the late autumn.

[Nina P]

Very Lovely Ken,
I'm hoping to learn, how to work with my pictures soon, enrolled in classes to help me with the finer features of digital photography, and PC working on them... given up trying to be self sufficient, and asking every one to do things for me, too much cheek really!! Nina.

[Surreybirder]

Sorry, I'm still excited about the wheatear and cannot resist adding another snap.

[Nina P]

I don't blame you either Ken She is really georgeous, I did wonder if you had named her eroniously but then realised that this bird will be in off season markings, so I can see that it is a female now. Nina.

[Geraldine]

Hi Ken,
What a lovely little creature!
I was sitting in our van once, my back having given out, whilst James went exploring for an extra half hour, when a wheatear came and sat on a post next to the van. It kept me company until James came back. He hadn't seen anything, so was a bit miffed!
I love your photos, and these local patch threads are my favourite bit of BF. I always look for yours and Nina's first. You are so observant. Thank you both. :hippy:

[Surreybirder]

Thanks for the comment--and the anecdote--Geraldine. I'm sure that you are right in that you can miss quite a lot with rushing about!
Do you have a 'thread' on Dover?
Ken

[Geraldine]

Not yet, Ken, but we will do one soon.

[Surreybirder]

I'll keep an eye out!

[Nina P]

Come on Geraldine, I'm sure with you and James you could very easily report on what you see, on a daily basis, I can't always get out of bed even so I report on what I've seen generally once a week, but I have to wait sometimes for the use of one hand as I was originally touch type trained, but with the left hand not always obeying the instructions, makes posting a real trial, not to mention backspacing nearly every other letter, now takes twice as long. Nina.

[Surreybirder]

Anyone recognise the bug that was on our roses today? (see below). there was a similar shaped one with white blobs on its antennae but it was too mobile to photograph.

[Surreybirder]

Another view of the same bug... could it be a longhorn beetle? It was very active, crawling among the leaves and perhaps searching for places to lay its eggs?

[Geraldine]

Hi Nina,
Everything that you, Surrybirder, and so many other people say is so interesting. I think what we could report woud be very dull by comparison. I am sure that there are many people in Kent more qualified to describe what they see than I am. And we are saving up for a digital camera.
We are hoping to go and look at the birds at Cliffe tomorrow. Dave G tells me there are Snipe there, Curlew Sandpipers, and a Pectoral Sandpiper, as well as Little Stint. If we get there I will certainly tell you about it. As for what we see on a day-to-day basis, I meet my gang of squirrels and birds, always the same ones, Collared Doves, Chaffinches, Bluetits, Great-tits, Rooks and a Jay, who wait for me, or rather the nuts, seeds, and fruit I bring. I am still looking unsuccessfully for the Nuthatches and Treecreepers which our bird-watcher-park-warden assures me are around in our park.
I have worked out, mainly by asking Gillian, that the bats I see at dusk are mostly Pippestrels, (spelling?), but there is a larger variety as well. I'll keep watching.
The new term has started, soon we will be back on the road all the time. That will increase our chances of seeing a variety of birds in various parts of the country, (we usually see a great many more birds of prey when we are travelling the motorways,)but will decrease our opportunities to tell you all about it, as when we touch base we are usually too exhausted to do much. This is not an excuse, but I am very aware of how little I know! I am also aware that my descriptions of birdwatching trips tends towards the sentimental, and downright soppy, because I DO consider the Water-Rail we saw to be VERY SWEET, which hardly counts as a factual and informative description! I just fall in love with them all. Avocets to me look like a flotilla of alien sailing ships, Starlings like petrol-strewn rain-puddles, Snipe like tweedy old gentlemen, Nuthatches like tatting-shuttles.
I can still feel your description of the bird stirring the air above your head as it flew over. I love that. I'll stop rambling now, and go away! :loveme:

[Nina P]

Hi to you both, Ken, I think your insect may be a bluehorntail, but have no latin name for this as it was the only one I could find, looking remotely like the one you posted, and in the least informative book I posess.
Geraldine, My posts are really not very special it is really only the style I use which is probably the reason you like the descripive posting, not just listing, but a way of imbibing my joy that keeps the reader interested.
I'll say sorry for not being able to reply earlier as we have now had two lengthy power losses, which makes one have to catchup on everything when the power returns, one of the major downsides to living in the rural areas, yesterday it was a lorry crashing into the power cables, knocked out about 5 square miles of countrysides electricity, and this being twice in a week causes a lot of aggro! Nina.

[Surreybirder]

If anyone can help me ID some garden moths I've put them Here (http://www.birdforum.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8333)

[goonerz]

hi surreybirder, it is very interesting to hear from your local patch,do you update your sightings if you have seen anything of note. I get more pleasure seeing birds on my patch than anywhere else, however that doesn't mean to say that i wouldn't travel to see anything a little more rare.

[goonerz]

Surreybirder,
your patch was an exceptional and informative passage of writing which shows how productive careful research can pay dividends in a relatively small area, It can only encourage people to do the same and has made me want to visit my local patch more often, thus resulting in finding something new on every visit, for example i was always interested in birds but have now wanted to learn more about the rich insect-life and lovely flowers which i admit in the past i have overlooked, thanks surrybirder you have helped me open my eyes.

[Nina P]

Ken I've tried to give an honest opinion on the wild flowers, but have looked hard at the possible Hairy St Johns Wort, and the only ? is the fact I don't have a single picture of the base of this plant!! Would you believe it? The only other plant that it would be and that is only an outside chance is Gromwell, but I have no picture again, but it could possibly be Lithospermum officinale, but I will stand by my wild marjoram as my first guess, just waiting to find out if it is the scented one. Nina.
Goonerz, welcome to our testing out of our knowledge theme, so give us a lowdown on your local patch and see what happens! N

[Surreybirder]

Originally posted by goonerz
Surreybirder,
your patch was an exceptional and informative passage of writing which shows how productive careful research can pay dividends in a relatively small area, It can only encourage people to do the same and has made me want to visit my local patch more often, thus resulting in finding something new on every visit, for example i was always interested in birds but have now wanted to learn more about the rich insect-life and lovely flowers which i admit in the past i have overlooked, thanks surrybirder you have helped me open my eyes.

Glad to hear that you've enjoyed my stuff, goonerz. I've certainly had my eyes opened to a wonderful world of animals and plants! The only problem is that you need a complete library to identify them all! (I have to admit that my interest tails off once you are down to needing 'voucher specimens' or dissecting the internal organs in order to ID a species.)

I'll look out for your thread!
Ken

[Surreybirder]

Nina, I've looked in Collins guide (Fitter, Fitter and Blaney) and I'm convinced about the marjoram. Not so sure about the St John's wort... this flower was tiny (3" tall at most).
I'll repost it here cos I'm getting complaints that I shouldn't have written about flowers under Surrey.
Ken

[goonerz]

Hi Nina,
My local patch is Dagenham Chase nature reserve, a well known prime London and Metropilitan Essex Birdwatching site,
Fortunately sightings have been very well documented and 190 species have been recorded since the 1954-2000 period.
The Chase is within the Dagenham Corridor Green Belt and comprises of 150 Hectares of Grassland,scrub, Wetland and limited woodland.
Most of the site is a public open space which boasts 4 lakes, the river Rom and a scrape which is the the prime birdwatching area,(especially for waders and waterfowl).The Black Popler wood is good habitat for all three species of British Woodpecker,alas i have good information the Lesser Spotted Woodpecker hasn't been sighted since 1995. Warblers and Finches thrive in the scrub areas to the west. It is crows flap away from Rainham Marshes, so it is not uncommon for Birds to be seen en route .

[goonerz]

Unfortunately a lot of my knowledge is bird related, So suffice to say it is teeming with all manner of insect and pond life,fauna avifauna ,Dragonflies,Butterflies.etc.
Bat Watches occur regularly, there is plenty of wildlife which i admit is not my forte and openly admit I am ignorant of the species in question. It is one of the many reasons i thoughly enjoyed topics on the threads you both have posted. You never know I might learn something!

[goonerz]

rarities have included : Purple Heron, Dark Bellied Brent Goose,Red-Crested Pochard,Spotted Crake,Honey Buzzard,Stone Curlew,Little Stint,Temmincks Stint,Curlew sandpiper,Great Snipe,Black tailed Godwit,Bar Tailed Godwit,Artic Skua,Waxwing,Bluethroat,Greenland Wheatear(sub-species),Siberian Chiff Chaff,Golden Oriole,Great Grey shrike,Red-backed Shrike,Tree Sparrow,Lapland Bunting and Pine bunting,

Of these I only have seen Black-tailed Godwits (about 20 of them in late July/early august.

[Surreybirder]

That's one heck of a list, goonerz.
Of course it's not the best time of year to develop a passion for wildflowers or invertebrates. I must admit that, as a novice, I'm confining my efforts with hoverflies and moths to my garden at the moment. I have not seen that many species of dragonflies and butterflies but the total no. in the UK is only in the 50s (for both groups). For many other invertebrates, I'm content to work out which family they belong to!
It's quite 'illuminating' to look in your garden after dark with a torch--I'm surprised how many spiders, moths, caddis flies, earwigs etc you can see on the ice-plants and buddleias in particular, that otherwise you'd be unaware of.
Of course, a garden pond will increase the diversity of wildlife considerably.
Ken

[Nina P]

Well done Ken, and for Goonerz, come on join this group of interested wildlife lovers, and see if you can help me find the right name for Surreybirders yellow flower that has (which) leaves, the long spikey leaves or the strawberry leaves? The flower may be stunted due to grazing, so height may be misleading, as I have found to my cost before, but I am just as desperate to find out what this one is, only my printer is out of action at the moment, so I'll have to 'phone my Botanist friend and mentor to see if she can help, but I need to know which leaves belong to the plant before getting help! Nina.

[Surreybirder]

Nina, of course I should have looked more critically at the time. I think it's the strawberry type leaves that are part of the yellow flowered plant but I'm not 100% sure.
Ken

[Surreybirder]

Nina,
I've gone back to my original photo. I don't know if it helps but here it is with a bit more of the surrounding foliage!

[Nina P]

I think I've finally located this plant in a very old book, gives old pasture as the main growing medium and from 2" to 12" tall, hairy and yellow flowered, ffed to cattle when they seemed to not be ruminating, Cudweed, Filago germanica, and I've spent many hours seeking this one, so I think I now deserve this drink!! Nina.

[Surreybirder]

Nina, thanks so much! I hope it was an enjoyable few hours rather than a burden.
You, Ian (hoverflies) and CJW (moths) are amazing, the work you do in identifying things for no reward! Many thanks.
Could the name be anything to do with 'chewing the cud'??????
All the best
Ken

[goonerz]

Hi,
I wonder If anyone can help me identify a moth in my garden
The tricky part is i haven't a digital camera yet, so I have to describe it to the best of my ability. I don't anything at all about moths , so here goes:
The shape of this moth is that of an arrowhead, It is 2 inchs from wing tip to tip in width,the height is approx 1,1/2 inches .It is coloured like bark or cork and is brown with a wide bar going accross both wings horizontally(which is a darker brown).the width of this bar is approx 1 cm.it has a stubby head with burgundy or maroon eyes which are quite big. It has antennae roughly a inch long almost like a strand of fine hair and in no way feathery. the thorax(i think thats what is called )is very stubby and when you look above it appears to be very hunchbacked,reciding into a thin sharp point .either side of the source of the point is a symetrical dark brown spot,giving the appearence of a mosquitos face..The underparts are predominately brown the same shade as above with an exception of acream bar running along the base of its wings.
Phew........, i hope this is enough info to pass your judgement on it,. Many thanks in advance to any replies it is very much appreciated. One more thing ,just in case it is relevant, I live in Essex, England and my garden comprises of buddlea,apple and pear trees. there is a pond in next doors garden.

[Nina P]

OK Goonerz, It would help greatly if it was a daytime or nighttime spotting, that is if you hadn't accidentally roused it, I have found one that if it wasn't showing an underwing, could be a possible, Large Yellow underwing, Noctua pronuba, one of the noctuids, but that is assuming this was seen in the evening? But pictorally shown would greatly assist, even a drawing or sketch would be better?
Ken it was a pleasure to search as it certainly keeps the brain cells going, and for once I really had my work cut out, although I am fairly certain of my ID, I would admit to being not 100%, about 75% if it were for Millionare. Nina.

[goonerz]

Thanks,NIna
your're a star
I came in from work at 8am and noticed it as took my rubbish out for the dustmen,it was not very well camoflaged as it was resting on a green garden chair. It is certainly is one of the largest moths i have seen. It defenetly had no trace of yellow under the wings though, as it moved minutes later, it was brown apart from thin cream bar running on edge of underbase of wings. thanks for all your trouble :-)

[Surreybirder]

Goonerz,
Try looking at
http://cgi.ukmoths.force9.co.uk/index.php
to see if you can find anything similar. If it was really that big it might conceivably have been some sort of hawkmoth? You might do better to post your question in a 'moths and butterflies' thread where CJW or one of the other moth experts would notice it.
good luck
Ken

[Nina P]

Hi Ken I didn't think it was a hawk moth from the facial description that was provided, but your link may help, only I'm not that clever to give links to information in a post, as I'm not a PC wise person, and all the pc successes have been mainly from this forum, From a very much humbled poster, Nina.

[goonerz]

Thanks!!!! you guys and gals !!!

it was definately a Red Underwing,
i looked it up on that marvelous website which was recommended.
I am now hooked on Moths and Butterflies, .Im very happy as i've just seen some Juvenile Common Redstarts in my garden,
i'm indebted to all of you for all your knowledge.
i just love these threads.

[goonerz]

or where they both female common redstarts, no defenately juveniles.

[Nina P]

So that means? a noctuid? Goonerz, Nina.

[Nina P]

Rdestarts, lucky you Goonerz, as I've yet to see one of them! Nina.

[goonerz]

Nina what luck, ive heard they have been over my patch lately,and i saw my fisrt one about 2 weeks ago.but could believe one was perched on my fence and the other on the lawn, times like these i wish i had a camera . Thanks nina you was on the correct trail about noctuids . Nina there has been pied flycatchers over my patch, but i have never seen one. I always seem to miss them. ps can you recommend a good field guide for moths and butterflies??. ps how do you attach photos

[Surreybirder]

Originally posted by goonerz
Thanks!!!! you guys and gals !!!

it was definately a Red Underwing,


Lucky you, I've yet to see one those. Isn't the camouflage amazing on the second pic on that moths website!

We have had the large yellow underwing on our buddleia a couple of nights recently.


Nina, the easiest way of posting URLs is to 'copy' the one you want from the bar at the top of the page and then 'paste' it in to your message.

[goonerz]

Surreybirder, that second picture is awesome, i saw one in my dining room one evening a month ago but never had a clue what it was, i spent nearly an hour trying to get it to safety of my garden. It states it is found near willow and black popler. my local patch is less than a mile away and supports those species of trees, i wonder if it is just a mere coincidance. I must say i have only ever seen this moth twice before.,but maybe that was because i wasn't looking. Thanks especially to you and Nina that's changed.

[goonerz]

bye now catching some zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz's,work looms tonight

[Nina P]

Ken that is very interesting, I'll have to remember that, when I know of a great site, but you lot are bound to know many more than I'll have a hope of ever finding on spec! Never mind the info is always useful, Glad we have made a convert of you Goonerz, and I've yet to lay sight on a black poplar, they are apparently becoming rather rare, so if you ever get your hands on any seed let me know as I will attemp to cultivate them in this county, they are limited to the SE corner of this country, I'd seriously like to alter that, by the way, are they growing on acid or alkaline soil?
Nina.

[Surreybirder]

The sloes are doing very well this year!

BTW, thanks to whoever gave this thread the fifth star!

[Surreybirder]

This is one of the meadows that is good for butterflies, including skippers, small coppers, gatekeepers, common blue, ringlets, various whites and painted ladies -- at different times, of course.

[Swift]

Well done Surreybirder the whole thread is a fascinating read, keep up the posts.

[Geraldine]

Ooo! I'll go and buy some gin, and get picking! :hippy:

[Andrew]

I was looking at the picture with my bins for some birds!

[Surreybirder]

Originally posted by Andrew
I was looking at the picture with my bins for some birds!

At the moment that hedge (which is where the sloe pic was taken) is much favoured by greenfinches and bullfinches. Good for breeding lesser whitethroats earlier (sorry!).
The turtle doves love the thick hedges and often perch quite openly.
The field is full of invertebrates and I'm sure there are lots of small mammals 'cos the kestrels hunt the area (as do the little owls which have a nest in the hedge just off pic to the right.)
Ken

[Nina P]

Ken you know the picture you posted , the last one and the one I put on my thread, I can't see them, as nothing happens when I click on the cross....any ideas why? Nina.

[Nina P]

Sorry, it has now appeared, What my father in law would do with all that lot.... He makes sloe gin and takes it to the "Buffs" where all his produce makes loads of money auctioned or raffled for charity, and a good load of it has helped keep Devon and Cornwall air ambulance flying. Nina.

[Geraldine]

They're drinking sloe gin while they're flying the air ambulance?!?

[Surreybirder]

I've been searching for a whinchat this autumn (having missed them in the spring). And today, would you believe it, there were three together in the field photographed higher up this thread (next to the sloe one)!

What with elders and blackberries, rose hips etc, we could have a good variety of wines on offer here!

BTW quite a few of the wild roses have got what I believe are galls created by wasps.

[Andrew]

Glad you got some Whinchats, did you mean you were searching for them for your patch list? Their superciliums are magnificent!

[Geraldine]

Hi Ken,
I saw Whinchats last week for the first time, over at Cliffe.
I've always taken those to be galls on the wild roses, too. And aren't they attractive, considering they're not supposed to be there! I must read up on the process that creates a gall, the insect must interfere with the plant's cellular programming, or something, mustn't it? Why can't it just lay it's eggs in a rose hip, without changing it?

[Surreybirder]

Originally posted by Andrew
Glad you got some Whinchats, did you mean you were searching for them for your patch list? Their superciliums are magnificent!

For my year patch list!

Sorry, my PM duplicates some of the stuff in this thread... but well done on the dotterels! (I'm not really jealous:D)

[Surreybirder]

Originally posted by Geraldine
Hi Ken,
I saw Whinchats last week for the first time, over at Cliffe.
I've always taken those to be galls on the wild roses, too. And aren't they attractive, considering they're not supposed to be there! I must read up on the process that creates a gall, the insect must interfere with the plant's cellular programming, or something, mustn't it? Why can't it just lay it's eggs in a rose hip, without changing it?

Please let me know what you find out!
Well done on the whinchats... you cannot beat a spring male, of course, but still nice to see them as they pass south to Africa!

[goonerz]

Hi Nina,
I have some limited info on Black Poplers
The Black Poplars originate from East Anglia, but now there are thought to be less than 8000 left in Britain. With so few remaining and many nearing the end of their natural lives scientists are worried they may die out completely.
The native tree would have lined many Essex riverbanks, and had many uses in 18th and 19th century Britain. Fewer Black Poplars were planted as non-native species of the tree appeared. The new poplars grew faster and straighter and could be used more easily by those working with timber, gradually the numbers of Black Poplars became less and less. The black poplar is a fast growing tree which can often grow to a height of 30m. Its branches curve down. In early April it produces red catkins for just one or two days in early April.The fallen red catkins are known as devil’s fingers. In many country areas it is thought to be unlucky to pick them up.
The black Poplar used to grow naturally along the banks of rivers and streams. Now they rarely grow in such places. Most occur as planted trees by ditches, streams and in hedgerows. Once common along river valleys it is now one of Britain’s rarest trees.

For the seeds to germinate they must land on bare wet soil (eroded river banks or islands in rivers) and the seedlings must stay moist until the leaves fall in October. Flooding and drought will both kill the seedlings and they cannot grow when in competition with other plants.
If you have a suitable area for planting (damp bare area) then perhaps you could plant some cuttings particularly from female trees. These should come from an approved source. The Tree Council and the Environment Agency can advise on suitable nurseries.
Since the 17th century the Eurasian P. nigra came in contact with the American black poplars. Natural and artificial hybridisation occurred and clones were selected. Hybrids of P. nigra and the American black poplar P. deltoides are called P. x canadensis ,these were introduced to much of Western europe and overtook the indiginous trees. It was Only found out these Hybrids were suspectable To a disease called Green Leaf spot, this was unfortunately only discovered in 1958.(as always Man has unbalanced the coarse of nature to is detriment)
I have talked with Some Rangers at Dagenham Chase, and they assure me that of all the Trees growing alongside the River Rom,
83% are Male,so there is an inbalance of the ratio of seeds, The other Main Problem is Other Trees Growing in the vicinity will not help it develop as it takes up too much of the soils neutriants and cannot cope with the competition. The Soil at Dagenham chase is a clay -based soil which contains Calcium.(which can hold a quantity of water) and is neutral. I hope this helps you a bit Nina, . I cannot take credit for this info as i have been getting it on various sites.
This may help though here is some e-mail addresses you could use to help plant these wonderful trees.
on 01223 363271 ext 2700 or email at j.mughan@apu.ac.uk or Mark Cole, Press Officer, on 01245 493131 extn 4714 , email m.k.j.cole@apu.ac.uk

Ps. I have been told the poplar hawk moth frequents Dagenham Chase.

[goonerz]

Could Someone tell me how to add attachments to your messages? It would be truly appreciated

[Nina P]

Ken, those galls are known as Robins Pincushions, and are formed in a similar way as the silver birches "witches brooms" the thing is that one year you may see hundreds, but next year you are often not likely to see any, they were very prolific in the previous village I lived in one year, but for the next 6 years you never saw one. I think it depends on the life cycle of the grub that forms them.
As for the Devon & Cornwall air ambulance, the pilots are not allowed to purchase this popular drink, and anyone who likes it is welcome to it, I personally dislike it immensely. Nina.

[Geraldine]

Hi Nina,
Damson gin's better!
Ken, I haven't managed to find out what's going on with the galls. I don't know of the silver birch ones, Nina. I'll keep looking!

[Nina P]

The "Witches brooms" look just like their namesakes, and are common on all birch family trees, I have seen something similar on a Maritima Pine, but that was chopped down to build the new Sainsbury's in Ferndown some time ago.
I believe the damage is done to the trunk of the tree and the tree then puts out rapid growth of twigs, which then form this type of gall/ excess growth, to compensate and disguise the damage. It often resembles a birds nest/ magpie type, or Squirrels drey. Nina.

[Surreybirder]

It's amazing what you see when you go out with a torch after dark. Apart from moths and spiders, I came across some nippy looking earwigs.

[Surreybirder]

crane-flies seem to be abundant right now.

[Surreybirder]

Goonerz,
I don't think anyone has responded to your question about how to add attachments.
When you post, you have to click on the green 'post reply' button. Then, where it says 'browse' click on the 'browse' button and select the file that you want to attach.

Ken

[Surreybirder]

How about this for a well-camouflaged moth! (It was even harder to see in life cos there were lots of similar looking dead leaves and the wings were not so bright--they've reflected the flash somewhat.)

[Nina P]

Great ones Ken, I did send Goonerz the way to use the green post reply, in PM as I felt the times it has been explained on the forum, may get the moderators annoyed, But as I have had no response I wonder if the message has been recieved? N. I do like your silver Y, and as I'm reporting now the Tawny's are giving voice, from the Ash tree outside. I suppose this will continue for most of the night for quite a few months now, as that is the norm for here. I aught to be in bed now as I'm off for the first lesson in the course of the digital photography and computing classes tomorrow morning.
I've just heard the first Barn owl call for the year, wonderful, signing off for now, Nina.

[Surreybirder]

Hope the course goes/went well!!
Wish we had barn owls here... but perhaps in the new place?

[Surreybirder]

got a film back from processing today so I thought I'd put up some butterflies from our garden.
First, small copper