A scope instead of bins?

[DavidL]

I am new to birding but not photography. I have always found that I get double or overlapped images using bin's. As such I am thinking of buying a scope, something like the Opticron Imagic 65 with their digiscope lens. I want it small enough to be able to hand hold and carry when I am walking around.

Realistically with two young kids I don't get much time to wander off and sit in a hide for a few hours, so most of it will be out the back kitchen window, looking at birds that are less than 10 metres away.

I also have a Coolpix 4500, a great camera. I like the close focus and the panarama modes and is the closest to my Nikon F50 in useage I have come across in digicams. I want to connect this up to a scope as well. I manged some shots of the moon by placing the camera to my telescope eyepiece.

The way I see it is;
1) I don't want a large magnification as the camera has a 4x zoom, you can't hand hold a 30x scope but probably could if it is was only around 10x and lower magnification means brighter image.
2) These large scopes get more light (not as much as my 200 mm Newtonian reflector) but they can not focus as close as the 60 mm dia scopes and are bigger and heavier.
3) I don't have much money to spend.

Am I mad and totally missed the point of scopes?
Has anyone compared the exposure settings of a camera connected up an expensive 80 mm scope to a 60 mm scope with fancy glass and a cheaper scope? How many exposrue steps different were there?

One sad thing about all the current digicams (compacts, not sure about SLR's) is they have a delay from shuter press to photo take. If that delay is critical then you should seriously thing about staying with a film camera.

Regards,
David

[Tannin]

Hi David, and welcome aboard!

I've had some rather similar tholughts to you. I don't like binoculars much and usually only use one half of them at a time (i.e., I close one eye). Apart from anything else, my friend wears glasses and it's easier to close an eye than it is to fiddle around adjusting the things to match her eyes, then my eyes, then her eyes again.

So a while back I started to wonder about a telescope. Alas for my budget, one thought led to another and I wound up ordering a full-on 80mm scope with all the trimmings. How does it work in practice? I'll let you know - it should arrive in the post today!

[robinm]

I shall leave more detailed comments to the real experts, however I have some thoughts.

If you want to digiscope with you will definitely need a tripod. I have the Eagle Eye 5x zoom lens which connects directly to my 4500 (with a step up ring). In good light conditions I can use this hand held. The scope, with its extra weight and magnification, will suffer from shake and I doubt you will ever get a steady image. If as you say that most of your shots will be from about 10 m or so maybe you should consider the Eagle Eye (http://www.eagleeyeuk.com/). You could maybe use a monopod for extra steadiness.

[Colin]

David,
First of all, welcome to Bird Forum.


Second, I will echo what Robin has said, you will need a tripod or at least some sort of reliable, stable support. The general rule of thumb and I subscibe to it is that with a magnification above about 10 or 12, it is not practical to hand hold the optic (binnies or scope). The rest of your queries I will leave to the experts and as you will find here on BF there are lots of people with all sorts of knowledge on just about any aspect of natural history and associated skills such as photography. Look forward to more posts and an update of what you settle for and how you get on with it.


Colin

[Andy Bright]

Originally posted by DavidL

Has anyone compared the exposure settings of a camera connected up an expensive 80 mm scope to a 60 mm scope with fancy glass and a cheaper scope? How many exposrue steps different were there?

David

Hi David, a big welcome to BF from all the admin and moderators, we hope you enjoy yourself here.

There's about one f-stop of difference, maybe just over. Though it's hard to compare f# between compact digicams and 35mm.

[Paul Rule]

David

Welcome to the forum.

If you are within10 meters of you subject you dont need a scope.

Nikon do a 2x and 3x converter for you camera so check them out. With the money you save find a good pair of binos, it sounds like you have only tried v. poor quality ones.

A good pair of bins are the most important piece of kit for any birder, you can get lots of enjoyment from birding with bins and no scope but not the other way round (just try a woodland walk with a scope and no bins and see how hard/imposible it is to get your scope fixed on a bird with such a narrow "field of view" and "depth of field" available on the scope), and of cause you will also need to carry a tripod 100% of the time.

Cheers

Paul

[normjackson]

Welcome DavidL.

Re. Overlapping images in bins.

It's well known that parallax effects make viewing with porro prisms more difficult for close subjects. I've wondered whether it's the same phenomenon that contributes to some people having trouble with binoculars at all distances. If so, the way to reduce this effect and help one make the "blend" might be to maximise the amount of "overlap" between what is seen in each eyepiece. You'd get this by going for low power, wide angle roof prisms (which have their objective lenses close together). I suspect this is one among the many things that makes Leica 8x32 bins so comfortable. Or at the other end of the price scale the humble Russian-made Photon 7x35s. Of course any bins that are not properly collimated are more likely to give problems to people sensitive to this. As an astronomer and being new to birding, perhaps you've not tried a binocular like this (though granted, parallax shouldn't be a problem at light years...)

I think most birders (ah ha, just seen Paul's post arrive) would agree that they get more use from their hand-held 8x/10x or whatever bins than their tripod-mounted 20+x scopes so it's probably worth pursuing a solution. If you still find you can't get on with bins, you might consider a monocular for day to day use. There's a fairly fresh thread here on Bird Forum on monoculars at :

http://www.birdforum.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=5929

Re. Teleconverter :

I think Robin is right. The application you have described looks tailor made for a teleconvertor. Again, a currently active thread on Bird Forum :

http://www.birdforum.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=3233

Re. Nikon Coolpix shutter delay

This is probably discussed somewhere in the forum :

http://www.birdforum.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=330

Re. Opticron Imagic Scope

If you do decide an scope is really what you need, try a peep at :

http://www.birdforum.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=5899

Re. Sharing bins :

Beaten me there. I can't immediately remember seeing this being discussed on Bird Forum. Interesting to know which is the favoured means of eyesight adjustment for shared bins : where, click stop/non click stop. Have people found circumstances where their favoured setting can change? And finally, Tannin, since your friends are probably fast concluding that you're made of money, shouldn't you be considering buying each of them their own pair of bins? ;)

Norm

[digi-birder]

Originally posted by DavidL
I am new to birding but not photography. I have always found that I get double or overlapped images using bin's. As such I am thinking of buying a scope, something like the Opticron Imagic 65 with their digiscope lens. I want it small enough to be able to hand hold and carry when I am walking around.

I presume that, to try and get rid of the double image, you've tried adjusting the bins using the central pivot to fit the distance between your eyes. They may need bringing in a little more.

I have heard that the small Kowa TS 501 is light enough to hand hold and also the Opticron Mighty Midget. Not to digiscope though - for that you would need a tripod.

[Paul Rule]

Tannin

Sharing bins aint such a good idea. Even if you both have identical vision, one of you is going to dip out on a regular basis, as that bird flies in and flies off again while the other one has the bins.

I'm sure that once you get to look through a good pair of modern bins you will be able to use them with both eyes open. Then you will just have to buy a pair (assuming you have any buget left), you can then give to old ones to your friend.

Paul

[DavidL]

Thanks for all the replies I forgot mention I wear glasses. Even without glasses I can sometimes adjust a pair of bins to get one image and then a few seconds later it jumps out sync again. My wife has recently bought a pair of good bins and when she was trying them out I was having a go as well with them and more expensive ones , same problem still occurs. I agree sharing bins is not on nor do I think trying to take my glasses off. I have even tried contact lens but did not get on with them. (Great way to see a grown man cry!)

Going for a scope with a low magnification was to take it someway towards it behaving like a monocular. I have a 1.8x ? teleconvertor but it is still not quite what I want sparrows are still too small.

Andy thanks for the info, I thought as much, one f-stop isn't normally too difficult to cope with as I expect I will normally be using a rest or tripod of some sort when using the camera on the back.

[Paul Rule]

Hi David

I dont think you should give up with this, you should be able to find a pair that suits you. You need to try a pair with good eye relief.

I hope you dont mind me asking this but have you have been using them with the eye cup folded or pushed down rather than extended? I've just tried using my Leicas with my reading glasses on in their usual extended position and I see exactly what you describe, push the eye cups down and perfect view obtained.

I'm with you on the contact lens front, I could not bear to put those things in my eyes.

Paul

[mak]

"That it is a well known fact that the parralax effects make viewing difficult at close focus with Porro prisms".

If you use Porro prism binoculars, you actually get a more defined 3D image at closer focus with a Porro prism binocular than when using a roof prism binocular.

Any way back to the problem. Try setting the eye relief as mentioned previously, the eye cups should be in the down position. If this has not worked, then look through the binoculars making sure that you are parallel to the exit pupil and not looking through at an angle. If still no further ahead, make sure that you have set your interpupillary distance, to do this, move the two binocular halves until you see one circular image field with both eyes. Having done all of these, it is possible that your binoculars require collimating, although you experience the same with your wife's binoculars, one final question. Do you wear bi-focal's?

[normjackson]

Agreed Mak, if you are lucky enough to have no problem with getting the two images into one then one of the potential benefits of a porro is a better 3D effect. If we mean "insect viewing distance" by close, then I guess perhaps MOST people would start to have problems getting the images to match; which is a reason why conventional porros tend not to offer focussing distances in this range. I was just guessing if maybe that was the problem David was having. Hope no one out there thinks I was knocking porros o:D

Hope some of your suggestions can help David here. I think we're all agreed it'd be worth his while taking some trouble over this and investigating a few more avenues.

Norm

[normjackson]

Contact lenses? Gee, David and Paul you're certainly covering some ground on this thread. How about laser eye surgery next? :eek!:

Glasses do put a bit of a spanner in the works re. my suggestion of trying low power, wide FOV bins. Generally bins do seem to be getting more specs friendly, but to get a wide FOV and good eye relief in the same pairs of bins is probably still gonna cost...

[Tannin]

Budget left? Me? Errrr ... what's a "budget"?

I just blew everything I had on the scope, and then hit the credit card for the camera. No more purchases for me for a long, long time!

Doubtless one day I'll buy a good pair of bins, but my friend and I are quite used to sharing. Because I usually only use one eye at a time (either one, left or right) there is no need to adjust anything when we swap.

In fact, sharing has advantages: with one of us using the bins and the other one using bare eyes (usually me - I don't like bins much) there is always someone to see where the bird went when it suddenly moves out of the field of view.

I think there is are names for different sorts of birders, which I forget. We are the sort that don't trouble to keep a species list or go racing off to chase rarities, but prefer to find somewhere comfortable and just watch a group of birds going about their daily routine, interacting with each other, foraging, having territorial squabbles, nesting, and so. Very often, bare eyes are best for that. (And ears!)

With any luck, my friend will be inspired by my new scope to race out and buy herself a pair of really good bins so I can share them till my credit card recovers! That should be about 2009. Then I'll buy some nice ones for myself.

Excuse me, David, I think I'm off-topic.

[mak]

tannin.
Having a siter in law living in Melbourne, I had the pleasure of visitng Ballarat, and the sanctuary. Great place, and with all the species you have in Victoria, you will need to buy a pair of bins before 2009!!

Recently visited Lorne on the Great Ocean Road, what with all the King Parrots, Crimson Rosellas, Black Cockatoo's and Sulphur Crested Cockatoo's (counted 40 in a tree one evening), Blue Fairy Wrens, what a place. Yes also saw the traditional tourist species, Koala's, Kangaroo.s and Kookaburra's as well as those big Huntsman spiders. Recommend a visit to Australia for birdwatching, and all the other wildlife and fauna.

Sorry off the topic as well

[DavidL]

Paul,
Tried with eyecup out and back, also tried changing the interpupillary distance, basically had a good play with with all the adjustable bits on bins. One day I may find a suitable pair but get them set up correctly and keeping them set up correctly seems alot of hassle if I can cope with a single lens set up.

I'm the same sort of watcher as Tannin. I was out on site today and their was a big brown job near the waterline of the mud flat which then flew off (I was still severval hundred metres away) , I could have done with something (as well as a bird guide! Shows what a beginner I am!)

Completely off topic - If you are in Oz go diving, not just on the Great Barrier Reef. Spent 10 minutes watching a sea snake some years back - totally fasinating.

[Paul Rule]

David

Just as a mater of interest what bins are you using?

Off topic, never done any diving but its something I want to have a go at sometime.

Paul

[Tannin]

Diving is wonderful. I learned to dive on the Great Barrier Reef (at Heron Island) and when I got back to Victoria did a few more dives ... but after the reef, it just wasn't the same. But in the end I went back to just schnorkelling on the reef. You can't go as deep (of course) but you can say out all day long, never having to worry about depths and times and watching your buddy and waiting for the dive boat to leave - you just go, and stay until you are hungry enough to have to come in. Wonderful! Lady Elliot Island is my favourite, but there are many great spots.

But (gradually working my way back on-topic, or at least somewhere within cooee of the topic) it was spending 10 days on the reef with my friend that had a maor effect (she says) on the way she sees birds. Birds, she says, are just different fish. She says that she'd never really realised how three-dimensional a bird's life is until spending so much time moving in three dimensions with the fish. It taught her (and me) a new way of seeing things. When you or I (as humans) look at a landscape, we see trees, shrubs, rocks, and so on - the solid items. But a bird doesn't look at it like that. Birds look at the spaces between the solid things. A positive/negative thing. Next time you are in shrublands (even in your garden) don't look at the shrubs and buildings, you'll get a better feel of where the birds are and what they are doing if you look at the spaces.

[normjackson]

Between topics here. Thought David might like to look at this :

www.fatbirder.com/links_geo/europe/england_somerset.html

Great stuff here to look through if you can get the kids go to bed at a decent time. That Chris Trott at the bottom of page has taken some nice digiscoped pics.

V. close to topic, maybe through one of the societies you can find a link advising of a bird fair or optics day or such like in your area. Might be able to have a good leisurely play with scopes, monoculars and bins. We have v. regular optics days here at two Essex Wildlife Trust reserves where there's always a v. large range of Opticron stuff on display for testing.

Norm

[mak]

David L.

I do not know if you are attending the British Birdwatching Fair on 15,16,17 Aug, at Rutland Water, but most of the major companies are there, showing their bins, but also present you will find the "optical experts" from Germany & Austria, they will certainly be able to sort out your problem.

[DavidL]

My wife bins are Optolyth Alpin 8 x 40's, she likes them, they were more than she was going to pay but are very light which was important.

I pinched them and went walking for a couple of hours at the weekend. Went up on Walton Common early afternoon, not much moving but more in the valley below.

I spent some time adjusting them, folding back the eye cups, focusing each eye and adjusting the intereye spacing. Started to get better views though there was still of tunnel vision.

This will sound really daft but I think my main problem is that positioning the bins with respect to my eyes does not have much tolerance. If you have reasonablely sized glasses you have little to reference to when you lift them up. With no glasses you can place the eyecups close to your eyes and even have them touching your face. I don't have this feedback and find my glasses move a little on my face.

So try to imagine. Glasses movable, bins need to be on the centred on the centre of the glasses, no feedback reference and wanting to look at something quickly. It is not suprising I'm getting put off by bins, scopes have a bit more tolerence if I pick the correct eyepiece, needs some more thinking.

Regards,
David

[Paul Rule]

Hi David,

I also have a pair of Alpin 8 x 40's which I used for many years before getting my Leica's. They may have improved since I got mine but if not I certainly would not use them with glasses.
The exit lenses are quite small and the field of view is certainly less than the Leica's. I can use the Leica's waring my reading glasses with no problem, but having just tried this with the Alpin's I was not impressed you have to get them dead in line with your pupils so I can understand your problem.

Try out a "top of the line" pair of bins then start saving.

Paul

[DavidL]

Thanks for all the replies. I have tried a number of scopes, bins and even monoculars. I found I could hold the bins steadier than the monocular. I tried some bins costing £700+ but in the end I have bought a pair of Opticron Imagic TGA 8 x 42's, not the most expensive but the most comfortable and best for me to look through. The also have a large eye relief. and I think that I will be able to rig up something to take photos through them.

All I need now is time to get used to using them!

[Paul Rule]

David

Glad you found something that suited you, I hope you get many years of birding from them.

Paul