TWiCE as Many Birds ! ?

[StevieEvans]

TWiCE as Many Birds ! ?

Who keeps a List of Juvenile Birds ? Anyone ?

Adds a whole new dimension to your days birding, far more than twice as many birds to see.

Young waders are Strange, they realy get you thinking, the same with ducklings seperated from their mothers.

Some from My favourite Juv's List:-
any of the 5 native English Owls
Long tail tit
Dabchick
Yaffle
Woodcock (on the ground)
Mute Swan.

[birdman]

That's a good argument you put there steviewol.

Some juvies are qutie easy to come by, but I've certainly spent many a minute or more trying to id a mystery bird that turned out to be a juvenile of one I'd already "got".

Even so, I generally give them a mention, so it might be worth having a juvenile list!

[pauco]

birdman
any luck with the warbler id yet bert.

[birdman]

Nah... not up to it mate... give me 5 years or so!!!

[Michael Frankis]

Juvvie gulls . . . now there's one to get in trouble with, but hey, with five different plumages from chick to adult, you could have five ticks out of all the big gulls!

Michael

[Andrew]

If anyone says "Aaah, lovely ducklings!" I will say "You should see Shelduck ducklings". They are brilliant little pied infants.

[seb_seb]

Ok i saw something that im convinced was a youngster today.........it was fluffy and black and about the size of a song thrush.

[dennis]

Probably a Tribble. They're trouble you know.

dennis

[StevieEvans]

I'm SORRY, BUT SEA-GULLS DON'T COUNT , they're too Difficult!
I'd rather look for aCuckoo's NEST than look thro' a gull flock..............

Anyway thats Reminded me of a Serious talking point..............

[Hanno]

Geen Magpie in Thailand recently. Our (experienced) guide had trouble to come to grips with that one (and there I was, thinking I had discovered a species new to science:-)))

[Harry Hussey]

Hi Steviewol,
"I'm SORRY, BUT SEA-GULLS DON'T COUNT , they're too Difficult! "
No,they're not TOO difficult,at least with practice.What's this about SEA-gulls,btw..?;-)
Juv/1st-w Yellow-legged Gulls,now THEY'RE difficult!
Have recently seen my first Redshank,Oystercatcher and Lapwing chicks(in Wexford).
Harry H

[StevieEvans]

Harry,
You're right, you have to 'get your eye-in'

I've seen Ivory, Ross's, Franklins, Laughing, etc etc

Am i right in saying that a JUVENILE is only a juv. untill its first winter....?

But Seriously!, DONT YOU THINK THAT Sea-gulls SHOULD ONLY BE TICKED if YOU See THEM AT THE SEA-SIDE.............?

[StevieEvans]

Additions to Juveniles List, this past two weeks:-

Rock pipit, Ringed plover, Fulmar, Common tern, Culew sandpiper, Dunlin, Oystercatcher, Ruddy duck, Tufted duck, Pochard, House martin, Willow tit, Green woodpecker, Chiffchaff, Bullfinch, Red Grouse, Meadow pipit

[Chuck A Wulla]

Not for me thanks. As a novice I'm having enough problems with the adults. Charles and Co. were good enough to help me out with a coot chick but no mas. BTW, is there a guide for chicks? Er. . . bird chicks that is.

bob

[birdman]

Originally posted by steviewol


Am i right in saying that a JUVENILE is only a juv. untill its first winter....?



Hi Stevie,

I read something last night that suggests thats about true - I think the term juveniile does refer to birds up to first winter, but in species that go through a number of moults until they reach adult, it can go through to second winter (ie. a bird hatched in summer 2003 would be juvie until winter 2004).

An immature bird is any non-adult.

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Birdman,

Nearly, but not quite!

A bird is a nestling or chick (or, in fancy terms, a 'pullus') until it is fledged.

From fledging, to the first feather moult (either a partial moult or a full moult) it is a juvenile.

From the first moult to breeding age, it is an immature.

Immature can be subdivided into age groups:
First winter: first moult to second moult
First summer: second moult to third moult
Second winter: third moult to fourth moult
and so on until maturity is reached

Full moult means ALL of the feathers are moulted.
Partial moult means just some of the feathers are moulted, typically the small feathers on the head & body, but not the primaries, secondaries or tail feathers

Most birds have two moults per year, a full moult in late summer, and a partial moult in early spring. Many small birds (e.g. finches, larks, sparrows, etc **) only have one moult per year, a full moult in late summer. Some birds have more complex moults (e.g. Long-tailed Duck has 1 full and 3 additional partial moults per year!).

Many small birds are adult when 10 months old, though others (e.g. Reed Bunting, Red-breasted Flycatcher) have a distinguishable first summer plumage and are not adult until 15-16 months old.

Large birds tend to take longer; big gulls get to fourth summer before they moult to adult, Gannets, Fulmars, shearwaters and petrels even longer (though with Fulmars, shearwaters & petrels, the immature plumages are indistinguishable from the adult)

Ostrich - no idea when they change from chick to juvenile (since they don't fledge!!)

** In these, the change from winter to summer colours is done by feather wear, not by moult. e.g. Brambling, the new head feathers after the late summer moult have a black base and a pale tip. The pale tips overlap and hide the black bases, so the head is pale ('winter plumage'). Then in spring, the pale tips wear off, so the head colour turns from pale to black ('summer plumage').

Michael

[StevieEvans]

Been to Blacktoft Sands 2day, birds added to this years JUV. list are :-

Tree sparrow, Water rail 2, Bearded tit 4 , Avocet, Green sand, Ruff, Greenshank, Spotshank.

S

[StevieEvans]

Juveniles Added :- Nuthatch, Marsh tit, Grey Wagtail & Bullfinch on Sunday.

Sunbathing this afternoon added juv Sparrowhawk and 3 juv Willow tits.

Going to count up this years running total.
S

Wed 16th. Juvs:- Yellow Wagtail, Reed Warbler, Reed Bunting, Shoveller, Gadwell, Snipe.

108 juv. species this year, from Durham, North'd & a day trip to Blacktoft sands.

[StevieEvans]

More juv's to add to year list..

Knot
Sanderling
Barwit
Roseate tern
Little tern

S

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Stevie,

Knot, Sanderling & Barwit??

Sure these weren't first-summer immatures? (do they count?)

Too early for this years' juvs to be getting here yet!

Michael

[Surreybirder]

Originally posted by Chuck A Wulla
Not for me thanks. As a novice I'm having enough problems with the adults. Charles and Co. were good enough to help me out with a coot chick but no mas. BTW, is there a guide for chicks? Er. . . bird chicks that is.

bob

There's an old Collins guide to nests and eggs which shows many 'chicks' too, I seem to recall. No idea what the situation is in North America. Of course, you can often ID juvs because they are with their parents (or at least one of them) :bounce:

[Malvolio]

"Knot, Sanderling & Barwit??

Sure these weren't first-summer immatures? (do they count?)"

The wings and tail are still juvenile in these birds at this age but the body plumage will have been replaced...so maybe half a tick.

MV

[StevieEvans]

Hello Michael

Had a juvvy Curlew sand on 10th July this year, i think they breed a lot further away from us than Bar tail godwit. (Arctic Siberia as opposed to Northern Finland)

The Barwit, im 100% certain of.

Im no wader expert, but the Sanderling was completely different to the other six adults it was with, i thought it was a Little stint (black & white contrast) untill it was obviiously same ssp as its companions.

The Knot, im knot so sure of ! now ive looked at books, it did look scaly, but again the 5 adults it was with all looked different to one another.

So, i think i'll "keep" the Bwit & check again when we get some more of the others down.

*
I've allways enjoyed confirming successful breeding at a site by noting juv's, BUT when you start looking at birds you dont see every day, then it realy is a case of 'twice as many birds'...to identify!

S

[birdman]

Sorry for the tardy reply, Michael - thanks for putting me right re immature etc. above.

:t:

[Malvolio]

I've personally never seen a Juv. Curlew sand before the last week of August. The breeding grounds are not free of snow and Ice much before the middle of June (and that's in a good year) so on the face of things the idea of a juv on 10 July anywhere in the world seems remarkable.

Same goes for Barwit really.

What ageing criteria did you use Steveiwol?

MV

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Stevie,

Hope I'm not sounding too argumentative, but I gotta agree with MV on this - I've been checking the Northumberland & Tyneside Bird Club annual reports for the last 10 years - the earliest date for a juv Curlew Sand here is 17th August (1996), and the average more like 20th-25th Aug. BWP gives similar dates, too.

It is only just in the last few days that I've seen any juvenile Dunlins, and they're probably local-bred on the Northumbrian moors, not coming several thousand miles from the Taimyr.

Worth remembering that several waders – including Sanderling, Curlew Sand, Spotshank and Barwit – have a fair degree of breeding plumage sexual dimorphism, with females much dowdier than males. Several of the popular field guides skim over this rather scantily, so it perhaps isn't as well-known as it should be.

So perhaps what you're seeing is the difference between males and females?

Barwit and Knot also both have first-summer plumage pretty similar to adult winter; first summers of Curlew Sand and Sanderling are much more like adult summer (only distinguishable at close range).

Michael

[StevieEvans]

MV / MF / all

My supper has just arrived from the Curry house. Will reply later.

BUT......having read your replies, i think i Have a LOT TO LEARN here, hope we can cont this later

Cheers

Stevie
(mmmm my curry doesnt taste quite as good as usual, i think ive dropped some clangers with my waders, still God loves a try-er, its back to the conifer woods for me i think...... what an idiot Steven...)

[Malvolio]

Gotta disagree with Michael's view that Curlew Sands attain a bright breeding plumage during their first spring moult - most don't, they grow new body plumage of a winter type pattern. Also adult females are only slightly duller than males, tending to show some white around the throat and to have more barring on the very slightly paler breast and belly.

Toatally agree about barwit females being duller than males though - in fact most do not develop any red body plumage so the stunning adult summers are always males. Females in summer look like they're still in winter plumage and are only distinguishable from first-summers due to the more heavily worn juvenile flight feathers of the latter (juvenile feathers are always of an inferior quality to those of adults - partly due to the fact that they all have to be grown simulataneously whereas adults have a staggered moult in which more energy can be put into growing feathers of a more resilient quality).

MV

[Michael Frankis]

Hi MV,

Thanks for the clarification on Curly Sands!

Michael

[StevieEvans]

Hi
I think its going to be to MY best advantage to do some reading up & study of my own before i start to ask advice on where i've gone wrong.

*Ive got to say though i would have bet my life on that Curlew sand being a juvenile. Ive got a few books out, but the picture of the (fresh juv) Curl.sand on page 141 of Collins Bird Guide 1999, is my bird exactly.

Im glad that i dont bet very often nowadays...!

S

[Surreybirder]

Juv knots are very distinctive with their lovely peachy wash on the underparts!