List Questions.

[Andrew]

I started a new thread in this forum as I think this is the proper place. I have just been reorganising my lists and lost a few birds but may add a few before I am finished. I have a few questions as I am unclear of a few points. . .

1 - Lesser Redpoll. I think this is different from Common Redpoll and the scientific name is Carduelis cabaret. Is this correct or should it be Carduelis flamma cabaret?

2 - Eurasian Nuthatch. Is the scientific name Sitta europaea caesia? Or should I not include the caesia?

3 - I once saw a Black Swan on the River Exe estuary from Dawlish Warren hide. It was definitely from Dawlish town's collection but can I tick it?

4 - I have changed a lot of names to proper full names but should I really bother calling the Kittiwake a Black-legged Kittiwake?

. . . .thanks for any help received for this incompetent lister. I lost quite a few birds as I inadvertently included one twice under a mispelling and quite a few were not 100% sure sightings.

[robinm]

1. Carduelis cabaret is correct. There was a split in common redpoll to Mealy Redpoll - Carduelis flammea and Lesser redpoll - Carduelis cabaret. Strictly speaking according to the BOU site Common Redpoll C. flammea includes Mealy Redpoll C. f. flammea, Greater Redpoll C. f. rostrata and Icelandic Redpoll C. f. islandica. But only mealy redpoll occurs on the British List.

2 Sitta europaea is the Eurasian or Wood nuthatch. Sitta europaea caesia is the subspecies found in Britain (and much of Europe)

3. Not officially. According to the BOU they are category E (Species that have been recorded as introductions, transportees or escapees from captivity, and whose British breeding populations (if any) are thought not to be self-sustaining) and are not part of the British list.

4. Depends who you are talking to. If you are talking to a British birder then kittiwake will do. But to be more accurate use Black-legged Kittiwake.

[Malvolio]

1 yes, it's now Carduelis cabaret as it has been split from Carduelis flammea (at least for the time being!). There are no subspecies of cabaret described so a third (subspecific) name is not required.

2 only include the caesia if you want to differentiate this subspecies from other Sitta europea subspecies

3 No, not if you want a clear conscience. One day there might be a self sustaining population in the UK and it could be added to the British List on that basis, as is the case with Pheasant and Little Owl etc...Then it would depend on how much of a purist you are and how much you want to compare your list with anyone elses. If you do want to make comparisons it helps to play by the same rules, of course.

4 Only if you think there might be a potential for confusion with Red-legged Kittiwake from the north Pacific. I'd tend to use the full name in a formal context and just Kittiwake informally but if you use the scientific names anyway there is no room for confusion.

MV

[Stephen Dunstan]

Andrew,

Black Swans occasionally breed successfully in the 'wild' in Britain so one day they might establish ferally, but being so much lighter than Mute Swans they will always suffer in territorial disputes.

One or two turn up here with the Whoopers and Bewick's every so often, a complete coincidence but with the Mutes as well it is always nice to see them all together despite the origins of the Blacks.

Stephen.

[Malvolio]

robinm wrote:

"1. Carduelis cabaret is correct. There was a split in common redpoll to Mealy Redpoll - Carduelis flammea and Lesser redpoll - Carduelis cabaret. Strictly speaking according to the BOU site Common Redpoll C. flammea includes Mealy Redpoll C. f. flammea, Greater Redpoll C. f. rostrata and Icelandic Redpoll C. f. islandica. But only mealy redpoll occurs on the British List."

This is not entirely true, or at least is not totally clear.

After the split of the redpolls the two species became Lesser Redpoll and Common Redpoll. The former has no subspecies but the latter has at least three (nominate flammea, rostrata and islandica). Some people give English names to these subspecies but this tends to lead to confusion, these names are "Mealy", "Greater/Greenland" and "Icelandic" Redpolls respectively. Each of these different subspecies occurs in Britain (or at least flammea and rostrata do) with varying degrees of frequency, not just "Mealy".

One of the problems with English names, and an obvious source of potential confusion, is that the name "Mealy" is variously used for the whole species (C. flammea, which I refer to unambiguously as Common Redpoll) and a particular subspecies C. f. flammea.


MV

[robinm]

Apologies . There is actually some inconsistency on the BOU site in that the names "Mealy", "Greater/Greenland" and "Icelandic" Redpolls are used when describing the split of common redpoll, but the official British List shows Mealy Redpoll Carduelis flammea.

[Malvolio]

There is actually internal inconsistency within the BOU website as they clearly use the Englis name Common Redpoll in the official statement announcing the split:

http://www.bou.org.uk/recnews00.html

Thank god for scientific names!

MV

I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me than a full frontal labotomy

[Michael Frankis]

Watch out too that a lot of older records give Lesser Redpoll the name 'Common Redpoll'!

Michael

PS MV - it's a lobotomy you'd rather not have ;)

[Malvolio]

so it is, perhaps I had one last time i'd had a few too many!

MV

[StevieEvans]

Malvolio / All
I had never heard of a Red legged Kittiwake.
But, i have seen a "red legged Kittiwake" at St. Abbs, several years ago.
Is the species on the Uk lists ?
How else does it differ from 'our' black legged birds?

Stevie

[robinm]

Stevie: Here is a link to a US website describing the red-legged kittiwake - http://www.mbr-pwrc.usgs.gov/Infocenter/i0410id.html. It is a bird of the north pacific region.

If you've seen one here I think the BBRC will want to know.

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Stevie,

Occasional individual Kittiwakes (Black-legged) do have pinkish/reddish legs, it is a fairly well-known form of leucism (incomplete colouration).

But that doesn't make them Red-legged Kittiwakes (Rissa brevirostris), they're a different species altogether, confined to Alaska and the extreme far east of Russia, around the Aleutian Islands and the Bering Straits. As well as having bright red legs, it is also slightly smaller overall, has a shorter bill, darker grey mantle & wing, and a slightly larger area of black on the primary tips. Check any American field guide for more details.

Michael

[StevieEvans]

The bird we saw had Bright red legs for sure, we watched it at length sitting on short cropped turf, & at close range.

Im going to try & find an old notebook !

We dismissed the bird as a 'throwback' at the time.

Robin m / Michael -thanks for info, but , i think i should look at what i wrote at the time, before i read up on the bird.

Stevie :t:

[Andrew]

Thanks to all who helped me out I shall not include Black Swan next timne I see one. I see them often and never included them , I was just angling for a tick ;) The link to the BOU site is brilliant, I now have a reference for official scientific names.

I have another question, I changed the name Cormorant to Great Cormorant. Is this a correct way of entering it on the list.

It turns out I only had one more to add to the list after the final clean up and it was Red Knot. There are some birds that I think 'Oh, I have that already' but don't check the list to see it's there!

I expect to see one this winter so I am asking in advance, is the Green Winged Teal a separate species from Common Teal.

[Harry Hussey]

Hi Andrew,
Green-winged Teal has been split from Common Teal by the BOU,so yes,you will be able to tick it!;-)
Harry H(has seen 3 GW Teal,but no BW Teal as yet...)

[robinm]

Yes Great Cormorant (Phalacrocorax carbo) is right.

Yes: Eurasian Teal (Anas crecca) and Green-winged Teal (Anas carolinensis) are separate species. Green-winged was split from eurasian recently.

Good ticking.

[Stephen Dunstan]

Attached is a 'red legged' Kittiwake at Blackpool in Spring 2002. I am not sure if they get redder than this, but it may be helpful to anyone who hasn't seen one.

Stephen.

[Andrew]

Thanks again. I am sure I will come back with scientific names questions when I get some great new ticks.

[StevieEvans]

Robinm
Cant access that site you listed....any other i can view ?

Stephen Dunstan
Thanks for that shot, i've seen birds with legs like this.
I would call this colour a fleshy pink, in contrast to the colour i remember on St.Abbs bird.

Cant find field-notes at moment, boxed up in loft i will check 2moro. !
S

[Stephen Dunstan]

Stevie,

Yes I would call it fleshy pink, but it is a lot nearer red than black is! I would think that a Kittiwake with bright red legs is very unusual, though still far more likely than a Red legged Kittiwake 'over here'.

Stephen.

[robinm]

Steviewol: Try this link instead

http://www.mbr-pwrc.usgs.gov/id/framlst/i0410id.html

[Darrell Clegg]

There was an article by Peter Robinson in British Birds a few years ago about Kittiwakes in Scilly. The gist of it was that they found a bird with bright red legs and got excited, until they looked a bit closer and saw that quite a few of the birds had red legs of varying hues - not of them dayglo.
Conclusion - "red-legged" Black-legged Kittiwakes are fairly common ( at least on Scilly)

Darrell

[Andrew]

Some more questions on scientific names. I have just been tidying up my world list (just Kenya!) and came across a few things needing clarification.

1 - I have quite a few birds with single species letters for example Glossy Ibis (Plegadis f. falcinellus). Is the species letter just simply the same as the subspecies name so the full name should be Plegadis falcinellus falcinellus.

2 - I came across a name in between two that was bracketted. Greater Flamingo was written as Phoenicopterus (ruber) roseus. What is the purpose of the (ruber) bit?

3 - Some of the names in the Kenyan guide are longer than the Collins. For example Little Ringed Plover in the Collins is Charadrius dubius whilst in the Kenyan guide it is Charadrius dubius curonicus and for Common Ringed Plover the Collins gives Charadrius hiaticula whilst the Kenyan is Charadrius hiaticula tundrae. Why has the Kenyan got subspecies names whilst the Collins does not?

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Andrew,

1 - Yes. They're just saving on space not putting it in full.

2 - That means the person writing is acknowledging that some other ornithologists prefer to lump Phoenicopterus roseus as just a race of P. ruber.

3 - Because (in the case of C. dubius) only the one race (nominate dubius) occurs in the area covered by the Colins guide, whereas in Kenya they have two (or more) races occurring;

3 - or (in the case of C. hiaticula) the illustrations didn't mention the race tundrae (but it is mentioned in the text)

Hope that helps!

Michael

[Andrew]

Thanks again Michael, I was a bit dubious about the Charadrius names ;)

I shall simply use the nominate dubius name and use the full names intead of abbeviations to permit trouble free sorting of spreadsheet records.

[StevieEvans]

Robinm
Thanks for that info
My notes from the time, basically refer to a bright red legged (as in 'your' picture) Kittiwake, sitting on short grazed grass at St.Abbs
It appeared smaller and darker than the other birds
Wasn't paired up or interacting with the other birds
Thats about it.

I'll have to look at some books and photos, and read up.

But, as far as i can see, we saw a Red legged Kittiwake that day.

Thanks for the help.

Stevie :t:

[Andrew]

When the subspecies name is the same as the species name I have decided to scrap the subspecies name as it seems easy enough to assume when I see the species genus and species names I am referring to the species. If there is a subspecies I will include the name if it differs. Example : the Glossy Ibis is now listed as Plegadis falcinellus as opposed to Plegadis falcinellus falcinellus. Am I right doing this?

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Andrew,

Might as well, where there's only the type subspecies involved. It is of course your own list, you can do what you like!

Michael

[Charles Harper]

The 'official' way, Andrew, if you'll look through the birdbook, is to use the initial of the specific, e.g. Plegadis f. falcinellus. Generally, I wouldn't scrap and I wouldn't assume-- it may lead to frustration in the future.

[Andrew]

Okay understood, I shall now need to look through the list and replace them!

[Michael Frankis]

Though in the specific instance of Glossy Ibis, that is now treated as monotypic anyway - so it isn't necessary there!

I'd guess giving it 3 names dates back to the long ago when White-faced Ibis (now Plegadis chihi) used to be considered a race of it.

Michael

[Andrew]

Thanks, I wondered why the BOU only gave genus and species names and not the subspecies.