Scottish Crossbill status

[Farnboro John]

Radio 2 reported this morning that "scientists have identified the one bird unique to Britain - the Scottish Crossbill". Are they just slow on the uptake or has some new evidence just been presented?

John

[robinm]

There was also an article on the Today programme and someone from the RSPB was interviewed. This article talked about the Scotbill as a sub-species whereas (on the Official British List) it is a species.

I guess there must be some new research, but I can't find anything on the RSPB website. Certainly all the stuff I have read recently was pointing to the crossbills all being regarded as one species.

[markgrubb]

Radio 2 reported this morning that "scientists have identified the one bird unique to Britain - the Scottish Crossbill". Are they just slow on the uptake or has some new evidence just been presented?

John

They have come to this conclusion after conducting their own study. See this am's Scotsman

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=1194662006

[griffin]

.........give me a second while I dig out my flak jacket.

Scottish Crossbill is currently, and for the forseeable future, regarded as a full species. Have not heard any "official" statement to the contrary - speculation or mis-information I suspect.

Nice photo on the Birdguides site article though, eh ?

[griffin]

Certainly all the stuff I have read recently was pointing to the crossbills all being regarded as one species.

Hi Robin

I would LOVE to read this, 'cause everything I have read recently re-crossbills is to the contrary. Please pass on the sources as I am genuienly interested and like to keep a balanced overview ;)

Meantime, others might be interested in this thread:

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?p=649327#post649327


Linz

[robinm]

Hi Robin

I would LOVE to read this, 'cause everything I have read recently re-crossbills is to the contrary. Please pass on the sources as I am genuienly interested and like to keep a balanced overview ;)

Meantime, others might be interested in this thread:

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?p=649327#post649327


Linz
I will try to find some sources - it is a while since I read them. By the way, I will be very pleased if this argument is finely settled in favour of the Scotbill being a separate species :t:

[Andrew Rowlands]

I guess there must be some new research, but I can't find anything on the RSPB website.
RSPB site has a new piece online, Robin - http://www.rspb.org.uk/scotland/action/endemiccrossbill.asp
"New research by the RSPB has helped to settle one of the longest-running disputes in the ornithological world.

The status of the Scottish crossbill as endemic to Britain - occurring here and nowhere else in the world - is indeed justified, according to the results of a lengthy scientific study into the species.

'Celtic' crossbills differ in bill size from other crossbill species found in Britain, and just like native Scots, they have also been found to have a distinct Scottish accent or call, thought to be the method used by the birds to make sure they only attract and pair with potential mates of the same species."

Andy.

[robinm]

RSPB site has a new piece online, Robin - http://www.rspb.org.uk/scotland/action/endemiccrossbill.asp
"New research by the RSPB has helped to settle one of the longest-running disputes in the ornithological world.
Thanks Andy. That wasn't there when I looked at the website earlier. It's even linked from the home page ;)

[griffin]

Ta Robin,

I tend to only hear the pro speciation arguments which are by respected scientists -the negative arguments do tend to be rather "journalistic" in their orientation and as such are usually misquoted, or ill informed or both. Remember the shocker in the Glasgow Herald last year by Vicky Collins - "Scottish, with its higher call" - eh, no, how about go and bloody look at some and listen to them before you write an article insulting those of us who study them. Or at least speak to someone who knows what the hell they are talking about !

That article really piss:ed me off-it is crap like this that is responsible for shaping peoples opinions and attitudes without proper and accurate presentation of the facts.

[sparrowbirder]

Is any of the current info based on DNA analysis, im
not sure just going by a slightly different call is really the way to go, I think some people are just desperate for the UK to have an endemic bird, whether right or wrong,still plenty of research needed on the whole "crossbill" complex methinks

[KnockerNorton]

, according to the results of a lengthy scientific study into the species.

'Celtic' crossbills differ in bill size from other crossbill species found in Britain, and just like native Scots, they have also been found to have a distinct Scottish accent or call, thought to be the method used by the birds to make sure they only attract and pair with potential mates of the same species."



Who on Earth wrote that crap? They'll be calling them 'Braveheart Birds' next. 'Celtic crossbills' indeed. Is it aimed at the SNP or something, cos nationalism has no place in science.

Well, if Scottish Crossbills are a distinct species, then you'll probably have to have the St Kilda Wren, Shetland Starling, British Willow Tit, British Coal Tit, Irish Coal Tit and British Red Grouse. This stinks of EU Birds Directive funding opportunities to me...

[Andrew Rowlands]

This stinks of EU Birds Directive funding opportunities to me...
Nothing to do with thousands of hours of unpaid study and research then?

[James Lowther]

Well, if Scottish Crossbills are a distinct species, then you'll probably have to have the St Kilda Wren, Shetland Starling, British Willow Tit, British Coal Tit, Irish Coal Tit and British Red Grouse. This stinks of EU Birds Directive funding opportunities to me...

i am certainly no expert, but while all those taxa may be as disgnosable and as genetically distinct as scottish crossbill, none (or am i wrong) occurs sympatrically with their relatives.
that's the argument anyway
be interesting to see the published paper

[Big Phil]

This stinks of EU Birds Directive funding opportunities to me...

Whats the problem with that?. I wouldn't pretend to have a scoobie if Scotbill deserves it's species status, but I presume that the legal status of an endemic species will give some very special places extra protection and funding. Fair play!.

It does seem that some birders are against Scotbill being a full species because it causes them ticking issues, rather then on any rational basis......

[James Lowther]

"pretend to have a scoobie"
nope, you've got me there!!....

as for ticking issues I know those arch-lumpers (ha!) the UK400 don't consider scottish xbill a separate species

the idea of a bird species which cannot be confidently identified from relatives occuring in roughly the same area without the aid of in-the-hand measurements or special equipment does go against the grain a bit, but there must be other examples worldwide??

[Big Phil]

"pretend to have a scoobie"
nope, you've got me there!!....


I don't have a clue [about Crossbill taxonomy]!.


the idea of a bird species which cannot be confidently identified from relatives occuring in roughly the same area without the aid of in-the-hand measurements or special equipment does go against the grain a bit, but there must be other examples worldwide??


Unstreaked Acrocephalus Warblers and various Empidonax Flycatchers spring to mind......

[Alan henry]

"pretend to have a scoobie"
nope, you've got me there!!....

as for ticking issues I know those arch-lumpers (ha!) the UK400 don't consider scottish xbill a separate species

the idea of a bird species which cannot be confidently identified from relatives occuring in roughly the same area without the aid of in-the-hand measurements or special equipment does go against the grain a bit, but there must be other examples worldwide??


Scoobie = Clue

[James Lowther]

ah, you mean like a scoobie doo?

[Big Phil]

ah, you mean like a scoobie doo?

Give that man a Carrot!

[KnockerNorton]

Nothing to do with thousands of hours of unpaid study and research then?

Who owns Abernethy?

[griffin]

It does seem that some birders are against Scotbill being a full species because it causes them ticking issues, rather then on any rational basis......

Couldn't have put it better myself, though I can sympathise with their dilemma !

Linz

[griffin]

Who owns Abernethy?

RSPB.

But I can name two other researchers in Deeside (who have published) in addition to myself who would qualify for Andrews thousands of man hours unpaid research, and we have no affiliation with the RSPB.

[griffin]

Who on Earth wrote that crap? They'll be calling them 'Braveheart Birds' next. 'Celtic crossbills' indeed. Is it aimed at the SNP or something, cos nationalism has no place in science.

Well, if Scottish Crossbills are a distinct species, then you'll probably have to have the St Kilda Wren, Shetland Starling, British Willow Tit, British Coal Tit, Irish Coal Tit and British Red Grouse. This stinks of EU Birds Directive funding opportunities to me...

It has got feck all to do with nationalism, though I don't like "Celtic" either, though only for the pathetic reason I support the "other" team who play in Blue ! :t:

[KnockerNorton]

It does seem that some birders are against Scotbill being a full species because it causes them ticking issues, rather then on any rational basis......

I'm not a birder, I don't list. I'm an ornithologist. And I think it's bollox.

The species concept is a very debatable area at the moment, and what you consider a species is largely defined by what you reckon a species is. Talk of 'forms' is probably more useful. I suppose that separating Scottish from Common Crossbill is consistent to a point with seperating Mealy and Lesser Redpoll, or Green-winged and Eurasian Teal, but then there is no argument with having British Willow Tit either, based on their phenotypical criteria, or various species of Coal or Long-tailed Tit or Wren.

I think the Scottish Crossbill is nothing more than a tentative local form, on the way to being a species, like Shetland Starling, which probably breeds with Common and Parrot Crossbills across the region, creating that nice blurry line on bill sizes. And I also think that if they looked a bit harder at crossbills in Scandinavia or North America then they'd find all sorts of interesting little local calls and bill variation.

It is massively in the RSPB's interest to have Scottish Crossbill designated as a species rather than a form/race/sub species, as the UK Govt is then legally bound to pour money into its key sites, which are identified and owned by, yep, RSPB. Give it another 20 years and we'll be lumping all thes ethings again, like we were 50 years ago after the bonkers split claims of the pre-War era (British Bullfinch etc). With the curent taxonomic chaos, virtually everyone is using genetic variation and markers for species identification. Only the RSPB has decided to ignore this and go on calls and bill sizes. It's not going to carry much scientific weight on that basis, as it's very much 'yesterdays science'.

[Jane Turner]

Caledonian Crossbill has a good non-contentious ring to it. Also echoes the habitat that needs conserving!

Redpolls are in a similar state of confusing taxonomic flux. Personally I am as clueless when faced with non classic Repolls as I am with Loxias in Scotlnad!

[KnockerNorton]

It has got feck all to do with nationalism, though I don't like "Celtic" either, though only for the pathetic reason I support the "other" team who play in Blue ! :t:

I disagree, I think that that press release has a very nationalistic tone, and we must remember that the RSPB is fawning over the Scottish Parliament these days. Any mention of "Celtic", "native Scots", "accent" etc are clearly and carefully put there to induce local (national) pride for whatever end (probably more money diverted to RSPB Scotland).

[griffin]

It is massively in the RSPB's interest to have Scottish Crossbill designated as a species rather than a form/race/sub species, as the UK Govt is then legally bound to pour money into its key sites, which are identified and owned by, yep, RSPB.

Actually, its is potentially quite the opposite. Most Scotbills, as far as I can tell, more often than not occur outside the Abernethy Reserve, and can be found in Rothiemurchus and Glenmore. This year we also had big numbers in Deeside on SNH and NT Reserves and even in Forestry Enterprise plantations -the horror! So the RSPB don't really gain direct funding for 'their' reserves. It actually creates quite a complex situation regarding the conservation management of Scotbill.

Linz

[KnockerNorton]

Actually, its is potentially quite the opposite. Most Scotbills, as far as I can tell, more often than not occur outside the Abernethy Reserve, and can be found in Rothiemurchus and Glenmore. This year we also had big numbers in Deeside on SNH and NT Reserves and even in Forestry Enterprise plantations -the horror! So the RSPB don't really gain direct funding for 'their' reserves. It actually creates quite a complex situation regarding the conservation management of Scotbill.

Linz

But the RSPBs sites will be promoted to SP/EU as the best long-term refuges (vs eg forestry land), and could easily be argued to receive funding for management as core areas and refugia. Did you ID all your birds on sonograms? Is that supposed to be the new 'safe' way? Bill size alone is surely unreliable?

[griffin]

I disagree, I think that that press release has a very nationalistic tone, and we must remember that the RSPB is fawning over the Scottish Parliament these days. Any mention of "Celtic", "native Scots", "accent" etc are clearly and carefully put there to induce local (national) pride for whatever end (probably more money diverted to RSPB Scotland).


Yeah, mate but that is just the 'press' - personally I don't read or take notice of any of it ! You want to see the bloody regional TV news up here ! Some of us are a bit more savvy.

[Big Phil]

probably more money diverted to RSPB Scotland

And that would be a tragedy, right? |;|

[griffin]

But the RSPBs sites will be promoted to SP/EU as the best long-term refuges (vs eg forestry land), and could easily be argued to receive funding for management as core areas and refugia. Did you ID all your birds on sonograms? Is that supposed to be the new 'safe' way? Bill size alone is surely unreliable?


Argghhhh - I have already had some a'hole on Birdguides questioning the ID a photo of mine ( that they used without asking ) and then getting touchy when I was curt in my reply that it did have sonogram verification !

EVERYTHING I ID is sonogram verfied. I can do 'em by ear but ALWAYS record a sound sample as "scientific" proof. I complile the Crossbill species accounts for NESBR and on Doc Martins recommendation NO records are accepted without biometrics or acoustic verification ( for Parrot and Scotbill). This should possibly include Commons as they are confusable with Scotbill - It is a Scotbill in my Avatar. However, commons are clearly ID'able most of the time.

Bill size can be used but there is overlap. All the birds we are catching are measured and the flight calls ( and any excitement calls ) are recorded and logged for that individual.

Linz

[griffin]

Regarding the frustration of ID'ing Crossbills I have copied a post of mine from Birdguides Article on this issue, and hope it is useful to people. I should add that his offence was that I said "so there" - I didn't call him a c**t or anything, like !


"Actually **** your post WAS a bit glib and 'smarty pantsy' -you also mentioned my name in person and questioned the identification, but I apologize that you were offended at my retort. I am clearly in the minority here, and wouldn't expect anything less. Forgive me for not getting drawn into a "rammy" - have had way too many and I find it pointless (and boring). However, I would like to add that in an age where birders spend £800 on bins and £1300 on scopes, you do not need "high tec" or expensive listening devices to ID crossbills (or other bird species for that matter). My first set-up that I used until very recently was a cheap electret mic and a Mini Disc recorder, total cost £140. I also used to use free software to produce the sonograms. Bat enthusiasts think nothing of using such technology to ID species. Crossbills are such that you sometimes don't get a great look at them anyway, and only hear contact and flight calls with "flyovers". Give it a go you might enjoy it and find it rewarding. You never know, some of you cynics might even (finally) get to "tick" a Scottish Crossbill ! Happy Scotbill hunting !"

[KnockerNorton]

Argghhhh - I have already had some a'hole on Birdguides questioning the ID a photo of mine ( that they used without asking ) and then getting touchy when I was curt in my reply that it did have sonogram verification !

EVERYTHING I ID is sonogram verfied. I can do 'em by ear but ALWAYS record a sound sample as "scientific" proof. I complile the Crossbill species accounts for NESBR and on Doc Martins recommendation NO records are accepted without biometrics or acoustic verification ( for Parrot and Scotbill). This should possibly include Commons as they are confusable with Scotbill - It is a Scotbill in my Avatar. However, commons are clearly ID'able most of the time.

Bill size can be used but there is overlap. All the birds we are catching are measured and the flight calls ( and any excitement calls ) are recorded and logged for that individual.

Linz

Calm down, I was only asking out of genuine curiosity! Btw, what sound recording equipment do you use?

[KnockerNorton]

And that would be a tragedy, right? |;|

Well, it could be if it transpires that this is all a bit shaky and loads of money has been wasted under doubtful pretences (cf red wolf fiasco).

And aside from that, it all depends on your opinion of RSPB as an NGO with incresing politicalisation, and their way of business and near-monopoly on all things birds in the UK.

[griffin]

Calm down, I was only asking out of genuine curiosity! Btw, what sound recording equipment do you use?

I AM calm, or as calm as I can be when the dreaded "is Scotbill still a species" issue comes up on here ! :-O

I now use a pretty ridiculous "blitzkreig" setup of Telinga Pro6 parabola, Fostex FR2 recorder and Raven Software (£2.5k :eek!: ) I occasionally use a Senheisser ME67 long gun and Mini Disc ( £650 ).

Have to say though the cheapo set up worked well for 3 years....think about next time you go to Abernethy, or even to determine which call types your local Commons have from year to year.

I dream of a network of people recording and collecting Crossbill calls throughout the UK ( and Europe), but then again I am sad bas:tard !

Linz

[Big Phil]

Have to say though the cheapo set up worked well for 3 years....think about next time you go to Abernethy, or even to determine which call types your local Commons have from year to year.
Linz

Any recommendations for an el cheapo setup?.

Cheers

Phil

[griffin]

Any recommendations for an el cheapo setup?.

Cheers

Phil


Phil,

I was recommended to get a Monocor ECM 957 (?) Condenser mic from CPC that has a "telescopic" function, it is basically a rip off of an Audio Technica ATR55 mono ( which you can get on Amazon for about £50, or from Keene Electronics). I would recommend a Mini Disc but these are being phased out. Maybe get a second hand one on fleabay, as the new ones are over £200. Other option is a flash recorder but these start at ca. £300.

Can use a free prog called Gram23 for sonograms - basic but works ok.

Hope that helps,

Linz

[Big Phil]

Hope that helps,

Linz

Thanks Linz, it does indeed. I'm highly tempted to try a bit of Audio banditry in the woods this winter!.

What sort of flash recording gizmo are we talking about (I can't keep up with these things.....)?

Phil

[griffin]

Thanks Linz, it does indeed. I'm highly tempted to try a bit of Audio banditry in the woods this winter!.

What sort of flash recording gizmo are we talking about (I can't keep up with these things.....)?

Phil


Hey Phil,

Try this :

http://www.solidstatesound.co.uk/M-Audio%20MicroTrack.htm

Was recommended to me but I went with the FR2 which was also recommended by the same person.

It would be good to have someone else (and others) contributing Scotbill and Parrot records to NESBR - I have just done the species accounts today and it is only my records for these species, as unfortunately I am the only one who has sonograms. That said, I think I have it covered !

Would be good for you especially as you spend time up the Derry and Luibeg on the way to the high tops !

Maybe I should set up a sonogram reading consultancy in advance of the rush of people to buy equipment to record crossbill calls :t: !!!!

[Capercaillie71]

I'm highly tempted to try a bit of Audio banditry in the woods this winter!.


Me too! In fact I could have done with some el cheapo equipment this summer to record the crossbills I've been hearing. Come to think of it it would be useful to record all the garden warbler/blackcaps I hear as well.

You might have a flood of crossbill records for 2007 Linz. Having said that I spent over 5 hours wandering round native pinewoods today and didn't see or hear a single crossbill.

[AStevenson]

Caledonian Crossbill has a good non-contentious ring to it. Also echoes the habitat that needs conserving!

Redpolls are in a similar state of confusing taxonomic flux. Personally I am as clueless when faced with non classic Repolls as I am with Loxias in Scotlnad!

Sadly Caledonian doesn't work either - From my understanding of the various papers in BB and in Scottish Birds(journal of the SOC), and no doubt Griffin will correct me if I'm wrong, but Scotbills occur more often in pine plantations not old forest remants and on the basis of sonogram data occur or have occurred in plantations in the Flow Country! and in Fife, not just Deeside/Speyside.

Parrots are apparently the 'commonest' crossbill at least at times in Caledonian Pine forest, and commons can be anywhere in conifers

The press release doesn't obviously do justice to the large amounts of work that have gone on in the Highlands over the last decade or so, involving following known colour-ringed breeding birds etc. which proved assortive breeding, and charted the 'yes it is not it isn't' twists and turns of the research. Seems that many folk have been unaware of the work or the inherent difficulty of trying to ID many crossbills in the northern half of Scotland.

And Jane, don't start me on redpolls - did you manage a good squint at any of ours whilst you were on North uist recently - many are appalling - there's a PhD and more awaiting anyone who wants to work on them!

Cheers,
Andrew

[Big Phil]

Hey Phil,

Try this :

http://www.solidstatesound.co.uk/M-Audio%20MicroTrack.htm

Was recommended to me but I went with the FR2 which was also recommended by the same person.

It would be good to have someone else (and others) contributing Scotbill and Parrot records to NESBR - I have just done the species accounts today and it is only my records for these species, as unfortunately I am the only one who has sonograms. That said, I think I have it covered !

Would be good for you especially as you spend time up the Derry and Luibeg on the way to the high tops !

Maybe I should set up a sonogram reading consultancy in advance of the rush of people to buy equipment to record crossbill calls :t: !!!!

Cheers Linz, I'm definately going to look into this.

[Capercaillie71]

Other option is a flash recorder but these start at ca. £300.


Can't you get some sort of adapter to record from a mic onto an ipod or similar, if you already have one?

[griffin]

Cheers Linz, I'm definately going to look into this.

Pleasure Phil. To be honest that is what is positive about this press release and information - people will get out with sound recording equipment and go get 'em. Even if they are clueless to what the sonogram "says" it is still an important record.

[griffin]

Can't you get some sort of adapter to record from a mic onto an ipod or similar, if you already have one?

You can Paul. However, best to have something that can record a .wav file if possible as Mp3 can compress the recorded data and effect the sonogram - it basically "averages" certain frequencies. So the boffins say anyway.

However, I did use my first Mini Disc in Mono mode which was one of the "lossy" settings (ATRAC), and it produced fine sonograms.

Linz

[griffin]

Having said that I spent over 5 hours wandering round native pinewoods today and didn't see or hear a single crossbill.

Ah, you must have been at Tanar ? !

Had total of 60 contacts (mainly Parrots, some Scots) at one site Monday past. :eek!:

Linz

[Big Phil]

Pleasure Phil. To be honest that is what is positive about this press release and information - people will get out with sound recording equipment and go get 'em. Even if they are clueless to what the sonogram "says" it is still an important record.

Well that brings me onto the next obvious question - how hard is it to produce and interpret the sonograms?.

[griffin]

Well that brings me onto the next obvious question - how hard is it to produce and interpret the sonograms?.

Easy to produce, can be difficult to interpret, but as I have said on another thread, no more difficult than looking for fine plumage details on a bird viewed through bins/scope.

[Jane Turner]

And Jane, don't start me on redpolls - did you manage a good squint at any of ours whilst you were on North uist recently - many are appalling - there's a PhD and more awaiting anyone who wants to work on them!

Cheers,
Andrew

Thankfully they were all in flight!

[markgrubb]

Easy to produce, can be difficult to interpret, but as I have said on another thread, no more difficult than looking for fine plumage details on a bird viewed through bins/scope.

So i guess the next logical question is what software/method do you use to produce a sonogram? And is there any readily available resource that the average punter can access to try and interpret the recordings.

[Birdspotter]

Ta Robin,

I tend to only hear the pro speciation arguments which are by respected scientists -the negative arguments do tend to be rather "journalistic" in their orientation and as such are usually misquoted, or ill informed or both. Remember the shocker in the Glasgow Herald last year by Vicky Collins - "Scottish, with its higher call" - eh, no, how about go and bloody look at some and listen to them before you write an article insulting those of us who study them. Or at least speak to someone who knows what the hell they are talking about !

That article really piss:ed me off-it is crap like this that is responsible for shaping peoples opinions and attitudes without proper and accurate presentation of the facts.

I'm afraid if you read rags like that you only have yourself to blame !
Personally I read the Edinburgh Evening News that have great snippets of information as well as well researched articles, including one on last years Torness Paddyfield Warbler with the quote from a Torness power station worker that they "think its the flat roof that helps attract all the rare birds to that particular area" :eek!:

[Xenospiza]

Very recently, a study on NA crossbills was published, that stated that the DNA of all call forms was similar, but also showed (through AFLP fragments) that the call types mated assortively. This has also been reported for European call forms (which are still being recorded quite regularly by the guy who brought us that Dutch Birding crossbill CD).

I'd say that based on the evidence, either all forms are "call types", or they're all "species"... (American types 1-9, European A-E (mayby more – e.g. I've heard very weird "redpoll-like" crossbills which I could not identify), Parrot, Scottish)... All other treatments do not seem logical to me.
Now just think of some fancy names instead of all this "type" stuff to get people in the mood for splitting! Their favourite cone could be an idea...

No matter how you look at it, these populations deserve conservation.

[Birdspotter]

Gotta say re sonagrams I have often thought about doing some of this on Xbills in Lothian, but didnt know were to start, so I find this info an excellent start.
With regards to influxes of Xbills to certain areas throughout Britain that often happens and are thus ALL put down as Commons, surely if a Pine crop fails in a Scotsbill or Parrots area they all then move.
I know that Fife and perhaps Derbyshire have had Scotsbill, please correct me about Derbyshire if wrong, so why not in Lothian or elsewhere ?

Just a thought from a tick hungry Lothian birder.

[griffin]

Now just think of some fancy names instead of all this "type" stuff to get people in the mood for splitting! Their favourite cone could be an idea...

No matter how you look at it, these populations deserve conservation.

Aha, Magnus had mentioned something to me about "Bohemian Crossbill" or something a couple of months ago ? Not sure about it to be honest, and the "Dutch" calls are all different in nomenclature from 'ours' which is confusing. When we know more about where the come from and go via ringed re-traps then maybe we can have such exotic names, which would be more fun !

[griffin]

For anyone interested in producing Crossbill Sonograms please refer to the following :



Dutch Birding Vol.22, No.2, 2000 ( Magnus Robb ) - calls not classified as ours in UK and not verified biometrically which ours are. Great sound recordings by Magnus Robb.


"Evolutionary Differentiation in Morphology, Vocalizations, and Allozymes Among Nomadic Sibling Species in the North America Red Crossbill Complex" by Jeffery G. Groth (University of California Press). The founder of crossbill call stuff !

"Vocal Similarities between Mediterranean and North European Pine Crossbills Loxa Spp." by Ron w. Summers and David Jardine, Ardeola 52 (2), 2005, 269 278

"The distribution and habitats of crossbills Loxia spp. in Britain, with special reference to the Scottish Crossbill Loxia scotica" by Ron W. Summers, David c. Jardine, Mick Marquiss and Robert Rae, Ibis 2002, 144, 393-410. I don't know David, but personally know the others and have the highest regard for their fieldwork and research.

Hope this helps,


Linz

[Acanthis]

Hi Linz

Great thread!
Seems like deja vu though like I've read and took part in similar debates on birdforum a few years ago - nothing changes!

I'd like to join your sad b*st*rd network of xbill recorders. I've taken a few faltering steps down that road though spare time is limited. I recorded some distant crossbill flight calls in a local wood back in january and though I created a sonogram(poor!) using avisoft I haven't ID'd the type yet.
Can I email you a copy for your opinion?

Sandy

[griffin]

Hi Linz

Great thread!
Seems like deja vu though like I've read and took part in similar debates on birdforum a few years ago - nothing changes!

I'd like to join your sad b*st*rd network of xbill recorders. I've taken a few faltering steps down that road though spare time is limited. I recorded some distant crossbill flight calls in a local wood back in january and though I created a sonogram(poor!) using avisoft I haven't ID'd the type yet.
Can I email you a copy for your opinion?

Sandy

Please do Sandy. Looks like a "consultancy" could be lucrative ! :-O

BTW I found a copy I made of the BB article on Scotbill - I obviously forgot to send it to you. Do you still need it ? Sorry I forgot !

Linz

[Acanthis]

Linz

Took me a little while to figure out how to attach files. Here's a copy of part of the sonogram (Hopefully!)

Sandy

[Farnboro John]

Aha, Magnus had mentioned something to me about "Bohemian Crossbill" or something a couple of months ago ? Not sure about it to be honest, and the "Dutch" calls are all different in nomenclature from 'ours' which is confusing. When we know more about where the come from and go via ringed re-traps then maybe we can have such exotic names, which would be more fun !

And the first one recorded (literally) would mean Bohemian Rhapsody......

John

[griffin]

Linz

Took me a little while to figure out how to attach files. Here's a copy of part of the sonogram (Hopefully!)

Sandy


Hi Sandy,

Looks like a good solid signal. I use a different scale, but I would say it is a Fc1 Common Crossbill which is usually pretty abundant.

Linz

[Acanthis]

Hi Sandy,

Looks like a good solid signal. I use a different scale, but I would say it is a Fc1 Common Crossbill which is usually pretty abundant.

Linz

Thanks Linz,

I'm not familiar with that notation scheme. I have a few scribbled notes in front of me now that compare Ron Summers' scheme with Magnus Robb's and where they correspond dated 2002. Has Fc1 evolved from that? :h?:

[griffin]

Thanks Linz,

I'm not familiar with that notation scheme. I have a few scribbled notes in front of me now that compare Ron Summers' scheme with Magnus Robb's and where they correspond dated 2002. Has Fc1 evolved from that? :h?:

Yes and no. Magnus is interested in variants of what we would call Fc1, however basically anything that looks like this :

\/\

that is, down-up-down, we would class as Fc1, at the moment. The inflexion can vary as can the length of the initial downward component. You can actually hear the clippy sound in your sound file.

In UK best to stick with the nomenclature per Ron Summers, that way we are all talking from the same book !

Linz

[Capercaillie71]

You can Paul. However, best to have something that can record a .wav file if possible as Mp3 can compress the recorded data and effect the sonogram - it basically "averages" certain frequencies. So the boffins say anyway.

However, I did use my first Mini Disc in Mono mode which was one of the "lossy" settings (ATRAC), and it produced fine sonograms.

Linz

I saw a digital voice recorder (Denpa MP38) on ebay for £79 that claims to record in .wav. If it is any use it could produce a reasonably priced set-up, combined with your £50 shotgun mic.

[Capercaillie71]

Ah, you must have been at Tanar ? !


Not Tanar, but not far away.

[Acanthis]

BTW I found a copy I made of the BB article on Scotbill - I obviously forgot to send it to you. Do you still need it ? Sorry I forgot !

Linz


I don't remember which article that was. If it covers Fc1 and other call types I would like to read it. :t:

[Frenchy]

Linz - with your obvious strong background in crossbills, what is your honest opinion on all of the other British endemic bird forms? For a couple of examples, how about Shetland Wren (which is bigger, darker, more heavily barred, has a different song, occupies a different niche and DOES come into contact with migrant nominate wrens without, as far as i know, breeding), Red Grouse and Crested Tit. Some of these have much better crudentials than Scots bill for specific status (and thats not to take anything away from your work), but always seem to be overlooked. I also feel that Poecile made a lot of sense with his references to the genetic work. In these modern times, the genetic signature is seen as the proof needed (although i realise it can be misleading on occasions), and it just doesn't seem to hold up with the crossbills. I'm certainly no expert on the subject, but i am an interested amateur. As has been said before, if we apply the same reasoning behind the scots bill split to many other forms, it seems as though we'll get a boat load of new species. Maybe thats the way forward?

Just interested to hear your thoughts on that really.

[griffin]

Linz - with your obvious strong background in crossbills, what is your honest opinion on all of the other British endemic bird forms
Just interested to hear your thoughts on that really.

My opinions don't matter and I have enough on my plate with Crossbills thanks all the same ! The Scotbill debate has dragged on before on other Forums and threads so I really have nothing new to say that I haven't said already. You raise interesting points.

Will leave it to the boffins ala Doc Martin et al at BOU who know far more about bird speciation than the rest of us put together to decide on the status of our resident UK birds. I, and others are only collecting and interpreting the evidence, we are not politicians, legislators, or even conservationists (?).

Not the answer you wanted I am sure ;)

[Xenospiza]

Is the Summers nomenclature in the 2002 Ibis article? If not: where can I find it?

[griffin]

An interesting point - Incase anyone is following the debate on Birdguides as well -I read a post by someone ( I forget who ) regarding the argument of Scotbill as species, as well as Common and Parrot Crossbills, stating that their feeding 'preferences' and breeding synchrony are "behavioural" not biological. This implies that they have a choice and "choose" what they feed on and also when they breed.

This is not the case as these birds have bills that are adapted to expolit particular cones, at particular times ( when these trees 'cone' ) and their respective breeding is sychronised and dictated by these factors, outwith their "behaviour". If it wasn't selective, Parrots (and Scotbills) could breed all Autumn and Winter as they can expoit the closed cones - however, they might not be able to feed their broods quick enough and if any did fledge they would struggle to feed themselves. They sychronize their breeding with the Scots Pine cones opening in March as the male feeds the female, himself and the chicks when they hatch ( for a time ). The fledglings can then feed themselves, after they become independent, as the cones are open and easy to work.

If this is "behavioural" it is indirect, and as consequence of the particular biological adaptation of these species to their niche. It all comes down to size....bill size that is, and, how you define a "species" and "behaviour".

[griffin]

Is the Summers nomenclature in the 2002 Ibis article? If not: where can I find it?

It does as does the Ardeola one (Med Crossbills, Summers Jardine), though it misses out the EcC that we get most on Deeside.

It is also on the RSPB site, somewhere !

[Bonsaibirder]

Apologies if this has been covered in another thread, but does this mean that there really are 7 or so species of crossbill in north america? - ie. it sounds to me that similar criteria for separating species were used in each case, although if I remember rightly the usa case was based mostly on voice and the birds travelling in species specific groups.

Sorry if I have remembered this all wrong!

Cheers,

[Acanthis]

It does as does the Ardeola one (Med Crossbills, Summers Jardine)

Do you have a pdf of the Ardeola paper handy? If not it doesn't matter I'll email the authors direct.
I got some recordings of Mallorcan Crossbills (balearica) 2 years ago while there on holiday, and I'm intrigued by the possible connections between the 'pine' crossbills of the med and Parrot.

[Frenchy]

Actually, to take a different tack on this, if you accept the conclusion that the Scottish Crossbill is indeed a valid species, then is it really endemic to Scotland? If researchers start digging around with other crossbill populations around the world and find that the criteria that make up Scottish Crossbill are actually widespread (eg some of the North American populations may well be identical?), then surely it would be a widespread but overlooked and cryptic species. Can anyone say for sure that there are no other populations of crossbills in the pine woods of the northern hemisphere that are not identical in every way to Loxia scotica?

Just a thought...

[Acanthis]

Can anyone say for sure that there are no other populations of crossbills in the pine woods of the northern hemisphere that are not identical in every way to Loxia scotica?

Frenchy, I've been thinking much the same thing. Perhaps there are other populations elsewhere very similar to the one defined as Scottish, but as they were first described in Scotland the name would probably stick.
Eurasia has vast areas which have crossbill populations that haven't been properly surveyed. If anybody is interested in advancing eurasian crossbill knowledge and are planning on birding in the Alps, Scandinavia, Turkey, Japan, Vietnam, Luzon, Siberia, China, or wherever - please take a microphone or even a camcorder and get some recordings of calls. It'd be a big help in understanding the ranges of call types and will likely turn up some new ones.

[griffin]

Actually, to take a different tack on this, if you accept the conclusion that the Scottish Crossbill is indeed a valid species, then is it really endemic to Scotland? If researchers start digging around with other crossbill populations around the world and find that the criteria that make up Scottish Crossbill are actually widespread (eg some of the North American populations may well be identical?), then surely it would be a widespread but overlooked and cryptic species. Can anyone say for sure that there are no other populations of crossbills in the pine woods of the northern hemisphere that are not identical in every way to Loxia scotica?

Just a thought...


Actually, as has been stated by me on previous threads on here, and as has been published in one of the papers I cited above, Fc3 calls have been recorded in the Med, though so far the excitement calls haven't - it was Parrot type and Common excitements that were recorded there. I am planning to go to Cyprus and other Med sites over the next few years at diff. times from the ones published.

No EcC in North American popultations which Groth has studied extensively - there are calls that could be classed as Fc3, but not identical to the Scottish ones in structure.

At present those combination of calls, with biometrics, are only found in Scotland.

Why do you think I am so keen to have people recording calls all over UK and Europe ?! However, biometrics are also needed which are quite difficult to obtain.

[griffin]

If anybody is interested in advancing eurasian crossbill knowledge and are planning on birding in the Alps, Scandinavia, Turkey

Some call stuff done already for Turkey, Scandanavia and Alps, but agree much more could be done.

[griffin]

Regarding Eastern populations.

All species of Crossbill love Pines, including Scots Pine and will eat it if it is available. In these Northern regions (Scand/Russia) smaller billed crossbills, call em Common if you want, will also feed on Spruce and Larch. These two trees are prone to failing, or producing poor crops in Autumn/Winter. The Scots pine cones are closed and difficult to open for these birds. The accepted notion is that the smaller billed birds migrate westwards, including to us in UK seraching for Spruce and Larch that hasn't failed. These are birds we get ( and are here now ) so we do have some experience of them. There are a few Russians working on Crossbills but not sure if anyone is doing calls.

The Parrots in these Northen regions have developed large bills that can crack open even frozen closed scots pines, so don't have to migrate ( so often ! ). The situation is regarded as far more severe than here in Scotland, possibly so that crossbills with "intermediate" sized bills would maybe not cope so well in the Northern regions. If you have seen a Scotbill "worked" closed cone you would know what I mean. Speculation, maybe, but valid all the same.

We need to understand why our "intermediate" billed birds are also found in plantation habitat while Parrots are predominantly associated with our remnant pinewoods.

Interesting that no-one has suggested whether or not we now have resident common crossbills in UK ! As there is a multitude and variety of habitat why should we assume that ALL birds go back to where they came from eg. Scandanavia/Russia, though some clearly do. Have we been colonized ? Just a thought.......PS I am not saying they are endemic before someone gets on their high horse !

[nirofo]

Quote griffin:
Interesting that no-one has suggested whether or not we now have resident common crossbills in UK ! As there is a multitude and variety of habitat why should we assume that ALL birds go back to where they came from eg. Scandanavia/Russia, though some clearly do. Have we been colonized ? Just a thought.......PS I am not saying they are endemic before someone gets on their high horse !

I think you'll find that Crossbills are resident breeders in the UK, both Common and Scottish, (not convinced at the recent status opinion), it's just that they don't stay in one place for too long, they are highly dependant on the seeds from spruce and pine cones, the Scottish Crossbill has adapted to specialise on Scotts Pine. They can and do feed on other seeds for a short while, when food is in short supply, but they are very mobile in search of their preferred food and will travel hundreds or thousands of miles to find it. If the cones seeds are in short supply, the entire flock will up sticks and away to find another good crop, this dependance on pine cone seeds is the cause of the major eruptions throughout Scandinavia and is when we in the UK see massive influxes. Many birds from these influxes will stay in the UK to breed, supplementing our indigenous stocks, nests can be found in almost every month of the year and breeding pairs can turn up almost anywhere.

nirofo.

[griffin]

Quote griffin:


I think you'll find that Crossbills are resident breeders in the UK, both Common and Scottish, (not convinced at the recent status opinion), it's just that they don't stay in one place for too long, they are highly dependant on the seeds from spruce and pine cones, the Scottish Crossbill has adapted to specialise on Scotts Pine. They can and do feed on other seeds for a short while, when food is in short supply, but they are very mobile in search of their preferred food and will travel hundreds or thousands of miles to find it. If the cones seeds are in short supply, the entire flock will up sticks and away to find another good crop, this dependance on pine cone seeds is the cause of the major eruptions throughout Scandinavia and is when we in the UK see massive influxes. Many birds from these influxes will stay in the UK to breed, supplementing our indigenous stocks, nests can be found in almost every month of the year and breeding pairs can turn up almost anywhere.

nirofo.

With best of respect I already knew all that ! There is one dominant Common call type that is always present ( and which doesn't seem to move about as much as you suggest, as either Spruce, Larch or SP will cone in any given year ). My own fault for asking a rhetorical question ! ;)

[Tim Allwood]

Hi Linz

this is a bit cheeky, but



I've been very interested reading this stuff over the last few days but i'm a bit out of the loop so could you write a really short summary 50-100 words of the current situation re 'Scottish' Crossbill so i can get a bit of a handle on it please.

I'm sure a lot of others would be very grateful too

Tim

[Frenchy]

Just speed read the new book "The Sound Approach" by Mark Constantine et al. Seems to be an excellent book on initial views and well worth buying. Theres a section in there on crossbill calls, and if i understand it correctly, there are actually several distinct forms of crossbill in Europe, similar to the situation described in North America. They have given these European forms some nice new names, such as Glip Crossbill and Phantom Crossbill, and basically conclude that these forms are spread throughout Europe and don't seem to interbreed. If i remember correctly, Glip Crossbill was the commenest and most widespread, while Phantom was rarer. In essence, Scottish is just one of these forms. So if the BOU are to apply the same logic to the whole crossbill complex as they have to the situation in the Highlands, then we will get several new species in Europe, and a couple more in Britain. However, even the authors of this book stop short of saying whether or not these all constitute different species, or merely a very dynamic superspecies.
So on one hand with large white-headed gulls, we have the BOU saying they want to wait until the whole situation accross the Old World is clear before splitting forms such as Caspian etc (which seems a sensible stance to me), while on the other they are maintaining the splitting of a cryptic form such as Scottish Crossbill. Surely its all or nothing with this group, and i await the BOU's comments on crossbills with interest.

[griffin]

Hi Linz

this is a bit cheeky, but



I've been very interested reading this stuff over the last few days but i'm a bit out of the loop so could you write a really short summary 50-100 words of the current situation re 'Scottish' Crossbill so i can get a bit of a handle on it please.

I'm sure a lot of others would be very grateful too

Tim

Easy telling your a schoolteacher, Tim !

There has been plently of stuff in the press and on the Birdguides site - it IS basically a PR exercise, possibly after that potentially damaging article in the Herald last year. The stuff has been published over the last few years in obscure journals - this I guess is the first official "public" statement.

It more or less re-iterates past published research ( unique combination of calls, positive assortative breeding etc) and add that the large bill sizes are genetically inherited and not through selection eg. their food types they are exposed to ( "as they grow" ! ) - I am not sure if I 100% agree with this myself ( certainly it MAY be stabilized now, but possibly wasn't always ?). Big-billed birds produce similar billed progeny, basically.

From my point of view, the positive thing is that (some) people instead of slagging it all off, are actually interested in getting out and recording calls of these species, cryptic or otherwise, "types", sub-species, call 'em whatever. The argument of it being elitist and cost prohibitive just doesn't wash. I wonder how many of the people who crtisticised "high tech" listening devices on Birdguides have driven the ends of the earth to twitch some small brown "jobby" or how many of the Birding400UK, or whatever they call themselves, have spent £100's chartering flights to Fair Isle ? Spending £150 to ID a crossbill is surely not all that bad to "tick" a Scotbill, and may help you get an Iberian Chiffie as well !

[griffin]

Just speed read the new book "The Sound Approach" by Mark Constantine et al.

That must have been the book Magnus was referring to - Bohemian Crossbill ?

[griffin]

BTW, if Scotbill is a split, what is it split from from - curvirostra or pytyopsittacus ? !!

Interestingly, in a recent short paper by Mick Marquiss and Adam Watson in Scottish Birds, it is stated both Watson and Nethersole-Thomson ( THE Daddy ! ) later considered "Scotbill" to be pytyopsittacus, and they refer to it as "Scottish Parrot Crossbill" in their book "The Cairngorms: Their Natural History and Scenery" ( a great book BTW).

[Acanthis]

That must have been the book Magnus was referring to - Bohemian Crossbill ?

Gotta love those names!!
Bohemian, Phantom, Glip...... Excellent!

Personally I detest a lot of those colourless descriptive names that official bodies saddle birds with. I visited Costa Rica last year and spent considerable time trying to learn the birds beforehand. There was Yellow-bellied this and White-throated that when the description would have been just as apt for several similar species. For many I gave up and learned the scientific names - more memorable! :C
Come on guys give them names that reflect the spirit of the bird or something to do with their natural history or home range. At least name them from characters that are UNIQUE to the species.

Sorry about this tangential rant, it's something thats bugged me for a while but should be on a different thread. Sorry! back to Scotbills. |:d|

[griffin]

Come on guys give them names that reflect the spirit of the bird or something to do with their natural history or home range. |:d|


Like "Scottish Crossbill" ? !!!!!! :t:

[Acanthis]

That must have been the book Magnus was referring to - Bohemian Crossbill ?

Googled it. They have a website http://www.soundapproach.co.uk/
Looks like a good read. No money for frivolities (= my hobbies in my wifes eyes) at the moment. I think I'll put it on the xmas list.

[Frenchy]

Looks like we may have another endemic as well. British Crossbill anyone? Apparently only one record outside of Britain (in the Netherlands, suprise suprise!).

[Acanthis]

Like "Scottish Crossbill" ? !!!!!! :t:

Scottish = Geographical description.

Looking back over this thread there seems to be at least from a certain chickadee (Poecile) a suggestion of celtic (hard c, not the Bhoys) conspiracy involving the Scottish xbill. |;|
I reckon since people are having fun with the names and in the spirit of British unity we should name our widespread 1a common crossbill - English Crossbill. :bounce:

All we need now is a distinctly Cambrian form |=)| - what's Welsh for crossbill?

Hmmm! Gylfingroes apparently!

[griffin]

Scottish = Geographical description.

I reckon since people are having fun with the names and in the spirit of British unity we should name our widespread 1a common crossbill - English Crossbill. :bounce:

All we need now is a distinctly Cambrian form |=)| - what's Welsh for crossbill?

Hmmm! Gylfingroes apparently!


Geographic yes, but also it also reflects their "home range" and natural history in that you only get 'em in Scotland. Until all you other boys get out with your recorders that is...............maybe. I suppose as the pine forest recedeed northwards to be replaced by oak, hazel, elm lime and beech, that this relict species was also present in "England" as well (along with Crested Tit) - he,he.

Joking aside, 1A IS apparently more common in UK than continent, and actually more abundant in Scotland, so need another candidate for "anglica" I am afraid ;)

[griffin]

The "Dutch" type E's correspond to "our" 1A's - I am not sure how many of them they got -apparently 12 or so.

They always seem to be present in UK in some numbers with the other two, 4E and 2B varying every two years or so ( 2B is abundant this year, though some E's about still ).

Have said for a long time the Common Crossbill is more interesting................

Linz

[Acanthis]

The "Dutch" type E's correspond to "our" 1A's - I am not sure how many of them they got -apparently 12 or so.

They always seem to be present in UK in some numbers with the other two, 4E and 2B varying every two years or so ( 2B is abundant this year, though some E's about still ).

Have said for a long time the Common Crossbill is more interesting................

Linz

Holland is not that far from East Anglia As the " craw flees" or the crossbill flies. Thetford springs to mind as a good place to start looking for all those interesting Dutch C Xbill types.

[BIG]

James Lidster pointed out that the type E (1A) sounded like a strain of hepatitis. British on the other hand...........

Mark Constantine ;)

[delia todd]

Hi Big I see this is your first post so may I welcome you on behalf of all the staff and moderators at Bird Forum.

D

[Farnboro John]

The "Dutch" type E's correspond to "our" 1A's - I am not sure how many of them they got -apparently 12 or so.

They always seem to be present in UK in some numbers with the other two, 4E and 2B varying every two years or so ( 2B is abundant this year, though some E's about still ).

Have said for a long time the Common Crossbill is more interesting................

Linz

My role in this seems destined to be flippant so now 2B or not 2B, that is the question....

John

[Capercaillie71]

I've ordered my cheapo sound recording equipment - under £150 including P&P. Whether it's any good or not only time will tell. I'll keep you posted.

[Big Phil]

I've ordered my cheapo sound recording equipment - under £150 including P&P. Whether it's any good or not only time will tell. I'll keep you posted.

What did you get?.

I'm going to look into getting some kit when I come from my hols in October, will be very interested how you get on. G'luck!.

Cheers

Phil

[Capercaillie71]

What did you get?


I hesitate to say in case I have made some terrible mistake, but I guess I will know in a couple of days if it is going to work or not.

Microphone - Audio Technica ATR55 from Scotaudio.com (£62 incl P&P). Dispatched yesterday, on day of purchase.

Recorder - Denpa MP 38, new, from ebay. This is a gamble as I can find no other information about it and no-one else seems to be selling it. It seems to be a chinese-made digital voice recorder, marketed for recording phonecalls, but takes an external mic and records in .wav (important according to Linz). £81.50 incl P&P. Nobody else was bidding for it so I just put in the minimum bid (could have paid an extra £4 for Buy Now).

[BIG]

1A is British, 2B Wandering, 2D is Parrot, 3C Scottish, 4E Glip, in addition; Parakeet, Bohemian, Phantom and Scarce, (great joke... I wish I'd thought of it before doing the book).

[griffin]

James Lidster pointed out that the type E (1A) sounded like a strain of hepatitis. British on the other hand...........

Mark Constantine ;)


Hi Mark,

Have just ordered your book and am looking forward to reading it and listening to it. Kinda weird (in a nice and interesting way !) buying a book from 'bath cosmetics' website ! ;)

Linz

[griffin]

I hesitate to say in case I have made some terrible mistake, but I guess I will know in a couple of days if it is going to work or not.

Microphone - Audio Technica ATR55 from Scotaudio.com (£62 incl P&P). Dispatched yesterday, on day of purchase.

Recorder - Denpa MP 38, new, from ebay. This is a gamble as I can find no other information about it and no-one else seems to be selling it. It seems to be a chinese-made digital voice recorder, marketed for recording phonecalls, but takes an external mic and records in .wav (important according to Linz). £81.50 incl P&P. Nobody else was bidding for it so I just put in the minimum bid (could have paid an extra £4 for Buy Now).

Depends on how much you can boot up the pre-amp Paul - on Mini Discs you can crank it right up and the relative noise is nominal ( except from the mic of course ). Even the Telinga I have creates some hiss with an FR2 ( don't know if it should ? ). The good news is that you don't need a great recording to produce a sonogram.

Linz

[Acanthis]

1A is British, 2B Wandering, 2D is Parrot, 3C Scottish, 4E Glip, in addition; Parakeet, Bohemian, Phantom and Scarce, (great joke... I wish I'd thought of it before doing the book).

Hi Mark

Great names BTW! :bounce:
I've been trying to tabulate all the different call-type treatments into a comprehensible group. Here goes:


British (Summers) 1A (Robb) E
Wandering (Sum) 2B (Robb) A
Parrot (Sum) 2d (Robb) Parrot
Scottish (Sum) 3C (Robb) Scottish
Glip (Sum) 4E (Robb) C

[BIG]

Yes sorry about that. We published the book ourselves. At least it'll smell good. I hope you enjoy it. :flyaway:

[griffin]

Do you have a pdf of the Ardeola paper handy? If not it doesn't matter I'll email the authors direct.
I got some recordings of Mallorcan Crossbills (balearica) 2 years ago while there on holiday, and I'm intrigued by the possible connections between the 'pine' crossbills of the med and Parrot.

How do your Mallorcan sonograms compare with those in the Summers/Jardine paper ?

I am planning a trip to Turkey and Cyprus - see if I can get a Scotbill call ! :-O

[griffin]

Now! How many of these forms are Fc1 with the flightcall pattern \/\ ?

Still trying to get my head round it all though the english names are really useful. :t:


I dunno presumably the "E" types? However, if you look at page 101 of the Dutch Birding article, Scottish Flight Calls, only the one furthest right would be Scotbill for us. There is a faint component on the middle one but not enough IMO. Similarly, Parrot Flight calls, only furthest right example would qualify under "UK" criteria ( Summers et al ).

Have got a lot of variant type calls this last year myself, both excitement and flight calls, so it really keeps you on your toes. Got scads of juvenile parrot and scotbill (begging) calls and am just about to start wading through those to see if there is variation, oh the fun........

Lindsay

[griffin]

Yes sorry about that. We published the book ourselves. At least it'll smell good. I hope you enjoy it. :flyaway:


I am sure I will enjoy it, and any "smelly" stuff mailshot promo material will be of interest to the missus ! 3:-)

Lindsay

[Acanthis]

How do your Mallorcan sonograms compare with those in the Summers/Jardine paper ?

I am planning a trip to Turkey and Cyprus - see if I can get a Scotbill call ! :-O

Linz,
we were there for a week in sept 04 near Deia in the North. There were plenty of crossbills in the Aleppos but the little sods always managed to be elsewhere when I had my mike with me. One day we decided to do the cultural bit and visit a preserved finca in the mountains. Not expecting to be doing any birding I left bins, mike and recorder at the villa. Big mistake! The finca - La Granja, had running water from natural springs, and crossbills being drouthy birds on a dry island - well there were hundreds of them! I managed to shoot some pretty lousy camcorder footage but the good thing is you can hear the birds well. I created a video file but I never got round to sonograms. Give me a couple of hours! ;)

The year before we were in Cyprus (Paphos). We both enjoyed a trip up to Khionistra/Mt Olympus amongst the Black and Turkish Pines, and made a promise to come back one day for a holiday and stay in the mountains. Incidentally didn't see a crossbill that time but the Masked Shrikes, Cypriot race Jays, Coal Tits, S-t Treecreepers were superb.

Incidentally I use a Monacor ECM-920 with a cheapo Sony tape-recorder from Argos. I would prefer to create wav. files to transfer direct to the PC instead of transferring from audio cassette as I do now. Any suggestions?

[griffin]

Linz,

Incidentally I use a Monacor ECM-920 with a cheapo Sony tape-recorder from Argos. I would prefer to create wav. files to transfer direct to the PC instead of transferring from audio cassette as I do now. Any suggestions?


Thanks for the info re-Spain and Turkey - sounds great !

Actually I was going to suggest that little tape recorder, had one myself and only £30. With that recorder you can only do it the way you currently are - recording it in realtime from the tape and converting to .wav.

I would recommend a new breed Mini Disc recorder or a flash recorder, like those made by Edirol and Microtrack. Straight .wav upload to the computer for both !

Fostex are bring out a baby FR2 called the FR2E ( I think ) - will be about £400 though....


Let me know how you get on.

[Xenospiza]

Hi Mark

I've been trying to tabulate all the different call-type treatments into a comprehensible group. Here goes:

Thanks!

"Glip" sounds like a typical name Magnus Robb would give. I'll look them up.

[Acanthis]

I am planning a trip to Turkey and Cyprus - see if I can get a Scotbill call ! :-O

Nice! I didn't notice that one first time I read it 8-P

Turkey has a world of possibilities. Pinus brutia around the coast, Pinus nigra in the mountains, and I think there might be Spruce etc in the east. I think Robb recorded the oddball type B in northern Turkey.
Other places worth a visit in the area - the Caucasus, and the Crimea. Michael Frankis who used to contribute to birdforums recorded the presence of Parrot-like crossbills in Bulgaria specifically in an area of Bosnian Pines - a species with high levels of anthocyanins in its cones. The male birds had pink-purple colouration rather than the normal brick-red probably as a result of these pigments in their diet. Plenty to investigate!
All I need now is a lottery win. ;) :bounce:

[BIG]

The names were first published in the Dutch Birding checklist in April. I've followed that. Glip was a Magnus original, British I think was suggested by Arnoud. :brains:

[Acanthis]

I would recommend a new breed Mini Disc recorder or a flash recorder, like those made by Edirol and Microtrack. Straight .wav upload to the computer for both !

Fostex are bring out a baby FR2 called the FR2E ( I think ) - will be about £400 though....



All I need now is a lottery win. ;) :bounce:

[Xenospiza]

In my Dutch Birding checklist I only see Corsican, Balearic, Atlas and Cyprus Crossbill... so it must be another of Arnoud's many lists (they aren't on the 'progressive checklist' of Dutch birds either).
Anyway, doesn't matter, the types were:
A - keep
B - weet
C - glip (see I remembered that well!)
D - jip
E - chip
F - trip
G is new to me, as for X and Y...?

[Acanthis]

G is new to me, as for X and Y...?

Hi Foreign Finch, ;) (Xeno- spiza)

I think X & Y result from the work of Kees van Eerde. There is a pdf available on Pim Edelaars page http://www.uwyo.edu/benkman/ called Zijn er meerdere soorten ‘Gewone’ kruisbek in Nederland? Limosa 77 which mentions them. You'll need to read it as I'm afraid I can't read Dutch. |=(|
As for G I couldn't recall where I'd heard of it until I came across an old email from Magnus Robb relating how he'd come across a crossbill call-type in the Pindus mountains in Greece he'd decided to call G. He also found it near the Bulgarian border and in Turkey. I don't know if anything has been published about it so it could just be unofficial.

[griffin]

Yes sorry about that. We published the book ourselves. At least it'll smell good. I hope you enjoy it. :flyaway:


Have had a quick look through it and can thoroughly recommend it, esp. to the sceptics and cynics of the importance and benefits of sound "taxonomy" and classification.


The crossbill stuff is really good -the Scottish and Parrot calls post-date the Dutch Birding CD and are spot on.


Lindsay

[BIG]

Glad you like it. The Dutch Birding list is the "list of Western Palearctic bird species 2006" page 10; Unnamed taxa.

[griffin]

Sandy,


Having read the Sound Approach book, the call that you posted, and the example I posted would be classed as "Parakeet" as per Constantine/Robb 2006. Magnus had told me that he associated this "n" shaped flight call with the equivalent of a "RSPB" excitement call B ( this is normally classed as a 2B bird ).

Having recorded hundreds of these birds over the autumn 2005 and spring 2006 I can concur that this fight call does seem to correspond and be associated with what we would call a hooped "B" excitement. I have had some of the associated excitement call A's, but really less than I would expect for this Fc. I also have had very few common Fc2's, which should match with EcB. It is difficult to know if it is the same individuals giving the correspoding calls, and different common "type" will mix in flocks, but it does seem to suggest this relationship.

This means in (Northern) Britain right now, the majority of Common Crossbills are these "Parakeets" and are thus 1B birds - this combination of calls is not classified by Summers et al 2002. Of course, there could be small variations in the "B" call, and I am sure Magnus would argue this.

Really interesting, and as Mark has refrained from a shameless plug of his book, I will do it for him......GO BUY IT NOW ! ( not just for xbills ! ). From www.lush.com

Now, as for those "Bohemian" excitement calls....mmm !

Lindsay

[Capercaillie71]

Really interesting, and as Mark has refrained from a shameless plug of his book, I will do it for him......GO BUY IT NOW !


OK. I've just done that. I'm finding all these letters and numbers a bit confusing, so I am hoping for a bit of enlightenment.

I was reading some stuff on the seven north american crossbill types. Do any of them correspond to the european ones or are they completely different? I understand that there are also some more types in the Himalayas.

Coming back to the original point of this thread, the more I learn about this subject the more I am starting to agree with the Scottish Crossbill having species status. However, it is also clear that it is absurd that the Scottish crossbill is singled out for species status when all these other types seem equally deserving.

[griffin]

OK. I've just done that. I'm finding all these letters and numbers a bit confusing, so I am hoping for a bit of enlightenment.

I was reading some stuff on the seven north american crossbill types. Do any of them correspond to the european ones or are they completely different? I understand that there are also some more types in the Himalayas.



The Summers et al 2002, Ibis paper I listed will also help re- 1A, 2B, 2D, 3C, and 4E Brit nomenclature. However, with the best will in the world, and a good book, it will still be confusing - it is crossbills we are dealing with after all !

For example, here is a caveat I have added in NESBR 2005 under Parrot Crossbill :

"Study into the interpretation and classification of call structures with crossbill taxonomy is ongoing and it is possible that some records may be reviewed in the future where appropriate".

Given the situation with the "parakeet" variety I think this is sensible - if we have physical acoustic evidence then records can be ammended, esp. when more is known about corresponding biometrics.

Some of Groths American types are very similar to certain European ones.

I should have added that all crossbill sonograms or sound files for non-Common types would presumably have to be sent to the county recorder for verification along with the record (?).


Lindsay

[Xenospiza]

I think X & Y result from the work of Kees van Eerde. There is a pdf available on Pim Edelaars page
Yes I had already read it... at least it seems to confirm a level of assortiveness (but not too much about calls).
And now I'm going to check that booklet again...

[Acanthis]

Sandy,


Having read the Sound Approach book, the call that you posted, and the example I posted would be classed as "Parakeet" as per Constantine/Robb 2006. Magnus had told me that he associated this "n" shaped flight call with the equivalent of a "RSPB" excitement call B ( this is normally classed as a 2B bird ).

Having recorded hundreds of these birds over the autumn 2005 and spring 2006 I can concur that this fight call does seem to correspond and be associated with what we would call a hooped "B" excitement. I have had some of the associated excitement call A's, but really less than I would expect for this Fc. I also have had very few common Fc2's, which should match with EcB. It is difficult to know if it is the same individuals giving the correspoding calls, and different common "type" will mix in flocks, but it does seem to suggest this relationship.

This means in (Northern) Britain right now, the majority of Common Crossbills are these "Parakeets" and are thus 1B birds - this combination of calls is not classified by Summers et al 2002. Of course, there could be small variations in the "B" call, and I am sure Magnus would argue this.

My head hurts! |:S|


Really interesting, and as Mark has refrained from a shameless plug of his book, I will do it for him......GO BUY IT NOW ! ( not just for xbills ! ). From www.lush.com

Now, as for those "Bohemian" excitement calls....mmm !

Lindsay

I had a 'peek inside' online - it looks absolutely superb!
I've got to get it ASAP :t:

[Acanthis]

I was reading some stuff on the seven north american crossbill types. Do any of them correspond to the european ones or are they completely different? I understand that there are also some more types in the Himalayas.

There's possibly 2 more in North America; Newfoundland Crossbill (subspecies percna -Type 8) and Central-american Crossbill (subspecies mesamerica). The last may be associated with (type 6) Mexican Crossbill but as far as I know its calls haven't been analysed yet. Both mexican and C-am are of necessity associated with pine forests while Newfoundland inhabits spruce forest.

[griffin]

There's possibly 2 more in North America; Newfoundland Crossbill (subspecies percna -Type 8) and Central-american Crossbill (subspecies mesamerica). The last may be associated with (type 6) Mexican Crossbill but as far as I know its calls haven't been analysed yet. Both mexican and C-am are of necessity associated with pine forests while Newfoundland inhabits spruce forest.


I was sent some of the suspected Percna calls by a BirdForum member who lives in Newfoundland. I don't know if they have been confirmed yet ?

There is some great pics of them in his gallery feeding on black sunflower - if only we could bait that Scotbills and Parrots with that !

Linz

[griffin]

My head hurts! |:S|




I had a 'peek inside' online - it looks absolutely superb!
I've got to get it ASAP :t:


Go for it, and I recommend that anyone else remotely interested in xbills, and other bird calls/song should pick up a copy as well ! There are good audio examples of most of the xbill calls.

[BIG]

Have a drink on me Griffin. B (:

For those wanting to read the "Sound Approach to Crossbills" but dont want to buy the book should be able to read a potted version in the next issue of Birding World (all being well).

[BIG]

P S My own local Crossbills are Parakeet and Glip with Magnus finding some Phantoms in Wareham Forest a couple of months ago. I havn't caught up with them yet. :flyaway:

[Acanthis]

There is some great pics of them in his gallery feeding on black sunflower - if only we could bait that Scotbills and Parrots with that !

Linz

Do you have a link to the page?

[griffin]

P S My own local Crossbills are Parakeet and Glip with Magnus finding some Phantoms in Wareham Forest a couple of months ago. I havn't caught up with them yet. :flyaway:


Yeah, I have had a few 4E's (glips) but they are definitely not as abundant on Deeside as they were last year, having been "replaced" with the "n" shaped "parakeet" Fc1's which also supplemented the resident "British" Fc1's.
Got a 4E on upper Deeside two weeks ago.


Linz

[griffin]

Do you have a link to the page?


http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=27738

[BIG]

Xenaspiza, I will be giving a short lecture at the Dutch Birding Fair tomorrow at two. I will also be promoting the Sound Approach to Birding on the Dutch Birding tent should you be interested. :news:

[Capercaillie71]

I've now got my cheapo sound recording equipment and have been playing around with it a bit. I have started a new thread to document my experiences:

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=66742

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[BIG]

I've just noticed Poeciles post from the begining of this thread, pointing out the fact that he sees himself as an ornithologist and that 'Only the RSPB has decided to ignore this and go on calls and bill sizes. It's not going to carry much scientific weight on that basis, as it's very much 'yesterdays science'." I wanted to reply belatedly;

Fashion in science? Surely Poecile, when it's an issue like extinction, ornithologists have a responsibility to conservation bodies like RSPB to sort it out. With the species concepts prone to the whims of fashion it is prudent to get as much funding into protecting these taxa until the next fashion prevails. I think it was Jefferson who said "In matters of fashion move with the current in matters of principle stand like a rock."