I have an itch....

[FrankD]

...that needs to be scratched. I have determined that I am going to send the Bushnell Elite 8x43s back to Eagle Optics. They are a great set of bins but I just cannot get over the resolution issue. I get better resolution with the 8x32 Pentax DCF SPs and they cost 2/3rds the price of the refurbished Elites.

So, that leaves me with a bit of a dilemna. I can just quit now and be happy with what I have or I can buy another pair of high quality bins to scratch that itch. Configuration is not necessarily as important as image quality. Everything short of the Leica Ultravids, Swaro ELs and SLCs, Zeiss FLs and Nikon LXLS is in play. However the following bins have caught my eye because I have found them on sale at one place or another. Prices and some specs are listed. Specs were provided by place of sale and are not complete listings.

Docter 8x42 (not sure which model) - $449
393 ft, 6 inches, 28.2 ounces

Cabelas Eurobins 10x42 - $799
330 ft, 5.5 inches, 30.4 ounces

Bushnell Discoverer 7x42(fringe choice compared to the others but on sale) - $299
420 ft, 5.4 inches, 28 ounces

Leica Trinovid BN 7x42 - $899
420 ft, 5.5 inches, 31 ounces

Leupold Golden Ring 8x32 - $899.99
419 ft, 5.2 inches, 27.5 ounces

Meopta Meostar 8x42 or 10x42 - $879.99 or $849.99
411 ft or 330 ft, 5.5 inches, 30.4 ounces

Minox BD BR 8.5x42 - $550
315 ft, 5.75 inches, 27 ounces

Nikon Premier SE 10x42 - $899
314 ft, 6.2 inches, 25 ounces

Pentax DCF SP 10x50 - $749.99
261 ft, 30 ounces, 6.7 inches

Zeiss Conquest 8x40 - $769.99
360 ft, 6.5 inches, 24 ounces

Any bin I may have left out? Any other high quality refurbs out there? I would like to hear your comments for one bin over another on the list. I am guessing the Leica and Zeiss models are going to be popular choices. The Conquest ABK, Leica Trinovid and Leupold Golden Rings are probably the front runners based on my brief past experiences with them. I will, ofcourse, be going to try many of these bins out at the potential place of sale. Any and all input is welcome.

Thanks.

[denco@comcast.n]

...that needs to be scratched. I have determined that I am going to send the Bushnell Elite 8x43s back to Eagle Optics. They are a great set of bins but I just cannot get over the resolution issue. I get better resolution with the 8x32 Pentax DCF SPs and they cost 2/3rds the price of the refurbished Elites.

So, that leaves me with a bit of a dilemna. I can just quit now and be happy with what I have or I can buy another pair of high quality bins to scratch that itch. Configuration is not necessarily as important as image quality. Everything short of the Leica Ultravids, Swaro ELs and SLCs, Zeiss FLs and Nikon LXLS is in play. However the following bins have caught my eye because I have found them on sale at one place or another. Prices and some specs are listed. Specs were provided by place of sale and are not complete listings.

Docter 8x42 (not sure which model) - $449
393 ft, 6 inches, 28.2 ounces

Cabelas Eurobins 10x42 - $799
330 ft, 5.5 inches, 30.4 ounces

Bushnell Discoverer 7x42(fringe choice compared to the others but on sale) - $299
420 ft, 5.4 inches, 28 ounces

Leica Trinovid BN 7x42 - $899
420 ft, 5.5 inches, 31 ounces

Leupold Golden Ring 8x32 - $899.99
419 ft, 5.2 inches, 27.5 ounces

Meopta Meostar 8x42 or 10x42 - $879.99 or $849.99
411 ft or 330 ft, 5.5 inches, 30.4 ounces

Minox BD BR 8.5x42 - $550
315 ft, 5.75 inches, 27 ounces

Nikon Premier SE 10x42 - $899
314 ft, 6.2 inches, 25 ounces

Pentax DCF SP 10x50 - $749.99
261 ft, 30 ounces, 6.7 inches

Zeiss Conquest 8x40 - $769.99
360 ft, 6.5 inches, 24 ounces

Any bin I may have left out? Any other high quality refurbs out there? I would like to hear your comments for one bin over another on the list. I am guessing the Leica and Zeiss models are going to be popular choices. The Conquest ABK, Leica Trinovid and Leupold Golden Rings are probably the front runners based on my brief past experiences with them. I will, ofcourse, be going to try many of these bins out at the potential place of sale. Any and all input is welcome.

Thanks.


The Leica Trinovids are by far and away the best all around binoculars you have on your hit list. Try the 8x32 Leica Trinovids BN though you might like the smaller lighter size. You can get them for around $650.00 on E-bay. They are the best all around binoculars I Have seen. I like them better than any of the top gun roofs. Try them you will like them.

Dennis

[FrankD]

Dennis,

Thank you for the suggestion. I saw on another thread where the Trinovid 8x32s were now your bin of choice. I guess there is a reason they were BVDs top all around bin for a time. That field of view is incredible for an 8x32. I think their price at Cabelas was right around $950. Not out of the question at this point but on the high end of the spectrum I am looking to spend. Ebay might not be a bad idea but financing for a purchase on there may be an issue. At Cabelas it will not be.

[Buster]

Frank,

My guess is, you have a poor example of the Elite's and an exceptional example of the SP's, because none of the SP's I've tried could hold a candle anywhere near the Elite's I own. It's been my experience with binos in the mid price range that such an occurence is not too uncommon. Much more so than with the likes of Leica, Zeiss, and Swarovski.

As far as the Nikon LX's go, I'm a huge fan of their optical clarity, but I'm real leary of their build quality. I've had three 10x42's and two 8x32 Venturer/LX/Premier's in my possession over the past few years, and three of them had messed up focus mechanisms. You'd think they'd be sturdy based on their weight and feel, but I think they have a serious flaw in that mechanism.

If you're considering buying from Cabelas, now is as good a time as any. I just received a promotion in the mail yesterday where if you spend $500.00 or more, they'll give you a gift card for $150.00 to use on a future purchase.

Good luck in your decision..

[FrankD]

If you're considering buying from Cabelas, now is as good a time as any. I just received a promotion in the mail yesterday where if you spend $500.00 or more, they'll give you a gift card for $150.00 to use on a future purchase.

Buster,

Thanks. I did not get that promo offer but my father did. ;)

The more I think about it the more I am convinced I must have received an average or below average Elite. I remember having a much more favorable impression of them in the store when comparing them to the Discoverers. I, ofcourse, could trade them for another pair at Eagle Optics.

Any preferences for the optics I listed or otherwise?

[Buster]

IMHO, of those listed, the Leica Trinovid stands above everything else. The view through the Nikon SE might be as good or better, but they're not water/fogproof, if that's a concern...

[Tero]

Well, so much for them. You need to move on and find a new love. The binocular just has to grab you in the store and make that credit card come out. Or were you doing mail order?

The 8x32 Pentax DCF SPs was not keeping you happy long enough?

I have some 10x30 reverse porros coming in, a new toy. I actually have more reverse porros than I need, but only two of them are any good all around. This one is a new format for me, as most are 10x25. Will report when I have them. Clarity is an issue, but so are eye cups. Sometimes a bigger issue, for birding. Very few compacts impress me at 10x, even if the 8x version looks good.

My usual test is to go look for Eurasian Tree Sparrows, they have a spot that is hard to see at 8x until quite close. I have not seen them for a week.

[Alexis Powell]

Any bin I may have left out?


How about the Stokes 8x42 or the Vortex Razor 8x42?

My advice: First, if you're willing to spend $700-$900 on a bino you should be willing to spend $1000-$1200. In the long run, the extra $ will be trivial, but being willing to spend it gives you more choices and can make a big difference in long term customer support (as you can expect w/a Leica or Zeiss purchase). Second, if your existing binos work well for you, buy something to compliment them rather than something that is functionally redundant. For me, a complete birding set for gear for any occasion includes close-focusing 8x20 pocket, 8x32, and 8x42 roofs, a scope w/30x and 50x eyepieces, and a carbon-fiber tripod with a nice fluid-head. If you consider your present optics set complete, by all means get whatever you want, but I would still recommend getting something that is at least as good if not better than what you already have.
--AP

[ceasar]

Frank,
Based simply on optics, the 2 standouts on your list are the Nikon 10 x 42 SE and the Leica 7 x 42 BN. Why? To get the equivalent quality in 7x you are going to have to spend about 600 or 700 bucks more and to get the equivalent quality in 10x you are also going to have to spend about the same amount more. High quality 8x's are all over the price spectrum, not so the 7x's and 10x's. There are fewer of them to chose from, and the really good ones cost real big bucks! Here is your chance to get either a 7x or a 10x, once and for all, at a reasonable price! Get them both, and you can spend the rest of your life looking for that elusive, perfect 8x. :h?:

"You pays yer money and you takes yer cherce." Jerry Leemy

Bob

[Pileatus]

Frank,
Based simply on optics, the 2 standouts on your list are the Nikon 10 x 42 SE and the Leica 7 x 42 BN. Why? To get the equivalent quality in 7x you are going to have to spend about 600 or 700 bucks more and to get the equivalent quality in 10x you are also going to have to spend about the same amount more. High quality 8x's are all over the price spectrum, not so the 7x's and 10x's. There are fewer of them to chose from, and the really good ones cost real big bucks! Here is your chance to get either a 7x or a 10x, once and for all, at a reasonable price! Get them both, and you can spend the rest of your life looking for that elusive, perfect 8x. :h?:

"You pays yer money and you takes yer cherce." Jerry Leemy

Bob
Bob/Frank,

The Trinovid 7X42, with its wide FOV and crisp image, is a revelation. Frank...the image is nearly identical to the view you saw through my Ultravid.

The SE 10X42 has never been a favorite of mine. I don't care for 10X and the 330' FOV is a bit too narrow for my tastes. Its image, however, is superb.

I've seen the others and that's all I say about this list.

Good luck!

John

[ehrodz]

Frank,

Are you familiar with the Monarchs? If so, how would you compare the 8x43 Elites to the 8x42 Monarchs? Thanks.

[FrankD]

I started typing this earlier this morning but today is my first day back at the regular job and I have not had time to finish until now at 1:45 pm. If I missed any posts in that time then I will try to respond to them in another post.

Buster,

Thanks. The Leicas are high on my list. (See comments below)

Well, so much for them. You need to move on and find a new love. The binocular just has to grab you in the store and make that credit card come out. Or were you doing mail order?


Tero,

Absolutely. I agree. I do plan on visiting the local Cabelas to look at many of the bins in question. The "Sales" for many of these bins are on Cabelas website and I will be financing with their 90 day plan so I will have to do it mail order or via the phone.

The Pentax SP 8x32s are great Tero. I finally found an 8x32 that meets all of my expectations. Not the best image quality in 8x32s but very, very good. Ergonomics are perfect in my opinion. In other words, a little compromise in optical quality for my favorite 8x32 ergonomics in an extremely affordable package. I will be keeping the SPs unless I decide to get a more expensive (Golden Ring) 8x32 bin.

Alexis,

I am not familiar with either of those two bins though I have seen the advertisements for them in Birdwatchers Digest.

I cannot find fault initially with your reasoning for spending the "Big Bucks" on the highest end bins however, if you noticed above the only way I can pay for the $700-$900 items right now would be through a 3 month payment plan. I can come up with $700-$900 in 3 months but $1300-$1900 would be a bit more difficult.

I do like the way you think in terms of the "complete set". I have the 8x42 Venturers and the 8x32 SPs along with a Pentax 65 ED scope, and XW eyepieces. I also have an 8x20 I am happy with along with a 7x35 Action EX for backyard feeder watching. The "next bin" could be thought of as complimenting my current lineup. I think my problem is that I tend to compare everything optically to the Venturers. Other than the EIIs and SEs everything else I have owned has fallen short. I want something now that will compliment and compete with (in terms of optical quality and build quality) the Venturers. The Elites were actually nicer in terms of build quality in my opinion but the optical quality, as mentioned, fell short.

Bob,

Thank you for looking at this based on just image quality. I would like to research this purchase from several different perspectives. I think I would be pleased optically with either bin. The SE would probably be ideal for hawkwatching though I am not sure how practical it would be for other types of birding (size and limited field of view). The Leica would probably give me the field of view I am looking for along with the superlative image but the size seems somewhat large (not compared to my Venturers though I would wager) and I wonder how much 7x is limiting for certain birding activities. I do not have a problem with 8x in an all around glass but would 7x be just as "all purpose?" Mr. Traynor was kind enough to let me handle his 7x42 Ultravids and I must say that they compared very, very favorably with my 8x42 Venturers. In fact they were noticeably brighter. That is something I only saw in one other bin the 8x42 FL.

John,

When you say "nearly identical" then what would I be giving up by going with the Trinovid as opposed to the Ultravid? I have read through the Leica forum and I have seen several comments where folks prefer the handling of the Trinovids but think the optics of the Ultravids are superior. Is this what you were making reference to?

I am surprised that nobody has mentioned the Zeiss Conquest ABKs....or the Meopta Meostars and Golden Ring models.

Thanks again for all of the comments. You folks have been immensely helpful.

erhodz,

The Elites are better in terms of overall build quality. Optically they are brighter with approximately equal levels of distortion. There is a $200 price difference between the refurb 8x42 Elites and similarly configured Monarchs. Are the Elites worth the extra $200? Yes, I would say they are.

[chartwell99]

Buster,



The more I think about it the more I am convinced I must have received an average or below average Elite. I remember having a much more favorable impression of them in the store when comparing them to the Discoverers. I, ofcourse, could trade them for another pair at Eagle Optics.

Any preferences for the optics I listed or otherwise?

I was disappointed by the 10 x 43 Bushnell Elite and returned the binocular to Eagle Optics. You and I might both have had bad samples, but I doubt it. I strongly recommend you look at the Meoptas, however - the 7 x 42 is a stunning performer. It's a little on the heavy side but very bright and exceptionally crisp edge to edge. While not in the same league, the Docter 8 x 42 is also a very nice bin - a far better glass than the Bushnell Elite and an amazing bargain at the prices I have seen quoted.

[Alexis Powell]

Given what you've said about wanting optical and build quality as good or better than your Nikon 8x42 LX, I think that looking at anything less than the very best roofs will be a waste of time, and getting one of them would be a waste of money. If you want a full-sized model, I'd recommend saving your $ (in your own bank account) or finding one of the top-end roofs used before getting a lesser bin. Of the models you've listed, I agree with previous posters that the only one that fits your criteria is the Leica 7x42 BN.

Before I say more, here's a simplified story of my own "itch". At the dawn of my birding and bino fixation I had an 8x42 Bushnell Banner. Many years later I saved enough $ to get my second bin, a Nikon 8x40 Classic Eagle, which was MUCH better (what a joy and a revelation it was!). Years later, I had enough $ to get the Zeiss 7x42 Classic and experienced another (though more modest) step up in optical and ergonomic quality (no improvement in build). I've bought many binos since, driven in some part by a desire to experience the natural high of yet another increase in optical+ergonomic+build quality experience, but the only model that I've found that marginally qualifies as such (according to my tastes) is the Swarovski 8.5x42 EL (faster focus version), and that is only by a TINY TINY (though satisfying :) margin.

I don't think the Leica are optically any better than your Nikon 8x42; I'd say they're more like a different flavor of equal. In fact, nothing is going to be better (now, or in the next few or perhaps even many years) than your Nikons unless there is something in particular about the Nikon LX optically that bothers you (e.g. if you were distressed by their slightly narrow FOV) such that you'd be willing to sacrifice one of their strong suits (e.g. edge sharpness) to better that parameter of concern. The Leica 7x42 BN has a wider FOV and slightly better build quality than your Nikon HG (I find the 7x versus 8x distinction trivial in practice), so is it worth adding such a (in my opinion) mostly redundent model to your stable? Only you can decide, but my guess is that you'd be more successful and satisfied by bringing the quality of the rest of your set to the level of your reference standard, the Nikon 8x42 LX. You say "I have...the 8x32 SPs... I also have an 8x20 I am happy with..." but also that "everything else I have owned has fallen short" when compared to the Nikon 8x42 LX. Smaller binos, with their smaller exit pupils won't ever have quite as easy a view as a full-sized model, but they definitely have their practical uses and they can certainly compete with full sized models in every other way. Unless your 8x20 is one of the best, I'd think it would be more satisfying to get a top-end modern "instant classic", like the Leica 8x20 Ultravid for your ~$600 than something bigger but of lesser quality and greater functional redundancy for the same cost. Or if you can manage Cabela's sale price, I'd consider the Leica 8x32 BN as a possible upgrade to your 8x32 SP (Leica is smaller, lighter, better build, very slightly wider FOV, and has EXTREMELY high OVERALL image quality, while perhaps not being as bright or color true as the Pentax).

In short, I'd encourage you to get something that you will without conscious question want to use in preference to a bino that you already use, rather than buy something that you will have fun buying and playing with for a time but will (after their novelty has worn off) then only want to use when you feel like playing with your bino collection since your older bino was actually better for critical optical use (e.g. birding!) all along.
--AP

[Tero]

Playing with our bino collections, indeed! We should only have one each, and a scope.

[FrankD]

Playing with our bino collections, indeed! We should only have one each, and a scope.

Somehow Tero, with you saying that it just sounds really funny. [;)]

chartwell,

My impression after owning the Elites briefly is that there could now potentially be a tier of binoculars above many midpriced models in terms of optical quality, build quality or both and yet that do not quite reach the same level in both of those categories as the "big 4". Though I only briefly looked through the bins I am about to mention I have a feeling they all would fall into this $800-$1000 category for one reason or another...Docter Optiks, Meopta Meostars, Zeiss Conquest ABK, Leupold Golden Rings, etc... I could easily see anyone picking up one of these bins and never knowing that the image quality or build quality could be any better. I would also be willing to bet that some "cherry" models of this class of bins would easily compete with the likes of the Zeiss FLs, Leica Ultravids, Swaro ELs and Nikon LXLs of the world. I guess the key there though is finding that cherry. ;)

Alexis,

I thank you for the extensive, thoughtful response. That is starting to become your trademark. :-)

Again, I cannot really find fault in your reasoning. My own experiences are a perfect example of what you are trying to relate. I often try to find the best value vs. cost in just about everything I buy. However, eventually, you are only satisfied with the very best combinations of optics and build regardless of price. Those $1200 and over bins are out of the question for now but the itch is still there. With that thought in mind I believe the Leicas will be my choice. At $900 and free shipping I would have a difficult time choosing otherwise...especially after reading all the positive comments on this thread and in past threads. My last and only real reservation before purchasing was the eye relief measurement as I could not find it for quite some time. I think 17 mm should prove more than satisfactory for my needs.

Any other thoughts or suggestions before I take the plunge?

..and thank you folks for the thought provoking discussion.

[Pileatus]

Frank,

The Trinovid 7X42 vs. Ultravid 7X42....

Trinovid
greater weight...not a big deal
ergonomics...bulkier but, again, not a big deal

Ultravid
brighter, but not by much
reveals a smidgen of extra color...probably due to brightness

BOTH models offer a super crisp, wide, stable FOV that I find very pleasing.

John

[FrankD]

Thanks John for the comments.

I found on old archived thread from here where you asked about a comparison between the 7x42 Ultravids and the 7x42 Trinovids. Some really interesting responses in the comparison with some folks mentioning better edge sharpness on the Trinovids but a brighter image with better contrast on the Ultravids. If I do finally buy the Trinovids we are going to have to get together again for hawkwatching so we can compare to the two in a practical environment.

[chartwell99]

[QUOTE=FrankD]My impression after owning the Elites briefly is that there could now potentially be a tier of binoculars above many midpriced models in terms of optical quality, build quality or both and yet that do not quite reach the same level in both of those categories as the "big 4". Though I only briefly looked through the bins I am about to mention I have a feeling they all would fall into this $800-$1000 category for one reason or another...Docter Optiks, Meopta Meostars, Zeiss Conquest ABK, Leupold Golden Rings, etc... I could easily see anyone picking up one of these bins and never knowing that the image quality or build quality could be any better. I would also be willing to bet that some "cherry" models of this class of bins would easily compete with the likes of the Zeiss FLs, Leica Ultravids, Swaro ELs and Nikon LXLs of the world. I guess the key there though is finding that cherry. ;)

I think you right about the Docter binoculars vs the named competitors, but the 7 x 42 Meopta is sharper and brighter than the Leica Trinovid, on par with the Ultravid and the real bargain compared to the Alpha contenders.

[Alexis Powell]

OK Frank, glad to know that my reasoning is sound even if not persuasive. :) Oh well, I certainly haven't followed my own advice. [My trade-mark? Maybe I should clam-up for awhile; I used to pride myself on how infrequently I posted!] Seriously though, the Leica 7x42 BN are an awesome bino, beautifully engineered and built, certainly the best of those you listed and for all practical and even 99% of impractical purposes (e.g. bino testing) as good or better than anything else made at any price. They are a bit of a brick (in terms of weight and ergonomics), but they are every bit as durable as they seem. So buy them with confidence, and I certainly hope you find that they fit your personal tastes.
best wishes,
AP
Oh, w/respect to the Meostar--I find them very impressive, though the focus was a bit stiff/scratchy on the two that I tried. It's been awhile, bit it is my recollection that they were not nearly as sharp off-axis as the Leica. I do remember them being bright, with good color (the Trinovids aren't perfect in those regards, but the difference is of no practical significance), but I didn't get a chance to evaluate their contrast and how well they do with backlighting (the Leica are excellent in those respects). Given their similar prices, I'd pick the Leica over the Meostar if for no other reason than that the BN is a proven design (the nearly identical BA model was introduced in 1990. I remember them clearly--so advanced/futuristic compared to everything else at the time!) from a more established company (thus more likely to be around in some form if you ever need parts/service).

[FrankD]

Chartwell/Alexis,

Thank you again for the further comments. I am going to take a trip to Cabelas this afternoon and compare the Meoptas, Leicas and Zeisses. I am already leaning towards the Leicas because of all the comments here and my experience with John's Ultravids but want to give the other two a fair shake.

[Otto McDiesel]

The Leica Trinovids are by far and away the best all around binoculars you have on your hit list.
Dennis

Second that.

[Swissboy]

...that needs to be scratched.


Frank, looking at your various posts, it seems you do not really need any binoculars RIGHT NOW. You have a fair collection of various models. So your main problem is that itch. But, as others have said, given your present financial situation, most of the models you can afford now are not really giving you an improvement. (The Trinovid 7x42 is optically superb, but it is rather heavy.) Therefore, I suggest you try to contain that itch for a while. In the meantime, you can save some more, which will then allow you a REAL improvement. And if you just simply can't handle that itch any longer, get one of the compact Ultravids (8x20 or 10x25 depending on your preferences). With this purchase you are in for a first step into really upgrading your collection.

[Tero]

Yes, we all need special optics savings accounts, otherwise the money will go to useless things like food and shelter. Good plan, save up for the big one.

[Swissboy]

Yes, we all need special optics savings accounts, otherwise the money will go to useless things like food and shelter.

I love your special humor, Tero! 3:-)

[FrankD]

Special definitely is the key word..... ;)

I am joking ofcourse. I do enjoy his humor at times as well.

Swissboy,

I thank you for the comments and would agree that I have a bit of a "problem". Your advice is good but just a bit late. The Trinovids should be here sometime today. As for the weight issue, you are probably right but then my Venturers are 4 ounces heavier than the Trinovids and I don't mind lugging those around. ;)

Thank you folks. I will post after they arrive.

[denco@comcast.n]

Given what you've said about wanting optical and build quality as good or better than your Nikon 8x42 LX, I think that looking at anything less than the very best roofs will be a waste of time, and getting one of them would be a waste of money. If you want a full-sized , I'd recommend saving your $ (in your own bank account) or finding one of the top-end roofs used before getting a lesser bin. Of the s you've listed, I agree with previous posters that the only one that fits your criteria is the Leica 7x42 BN.

Before I say more, here's a simplified story of my own "itch". At the dawn of my birding and bino fixation I had an 8x42 Bushnell Banner. Many years later I saved enough $ to get my second bin, a Nikon 8x40 Classic Eagle, which was MUCH better (what a joy and a revelation it was!). Years later, I had enough $ to get the Zeiss 7x42 Classic and experienced another (though more modest) step up in optical and ergonomic quality (no improvement in build). I've bought many binos since, driven in some part by a desire to experience the natural high of yet another increase in optical+ergonomic+build quality experience, but the only that I've found that marginally qualifies as such (according to my tastes) is the Swarovski 8.5x42 EL (faster focus version), and that is only by a TINY TINY (though satisfying :) margin.

I don't think the Leica are optically any better than your Nikon 8x42; I'd say they're more like a different flavor of equal. In fact, nothing is going to be better (now, or in the next few or perhaps even many years) than your Nikons unless there is something in particular about the Nikon LX optically that bothers you (e.g. if you were distressed by their slightly narrow FOV) such that you'd be willing to sacrifice one of their strong suits (e.g. edge sharpness) to better that parameter of concern. The Leica 7x42 BN has a wider FOV and slightly better build quality than your Nikon HG (I find the 7x versus 8x distinction trivial in practice), so is it worth adding such a (in my opinion) mostly redundent to your stable? Only you can decide, but my guess is that you'd be more successful and satisfied by bringing the quality of the rest of your set to the level of your reference standard, the Nikon 8x42 LX. You say "I have...the 8x32 SPs... I also have an 8x20 I am happy with..." but also that "everything else I have owned has fallen short" when compared to the Nikon 8x42 LX. Smaller binos, with their smaller exit pupils won't ever have quite as easy a view as a full-sized , but they definitely have their practical uses and they can certainly compete with full sized s in every other way. Unless your 8x20 is one of the best, I'd think it would be more satisfying to get a top-end modern "instant classic", like the Leica 8x20 Ultravid for your ~$600 than something bigger but of lesser quality and greater functional redundancy for the same cost. Or if you can manage Cabela's sale price, I'd consider the Leica 8x32 BN as a possible upgrade to your 8x32 SP (Leica is smaller, lighter, better build, very slightly wider FOV, and has EXTREMELY high OVERALL image quality, while perhaps not being as bright or color true as the Pentax).

In short, I'd encourage you to get something that you will without conscious question want to use in preference to a bino that you already use, rather than buy something that you will have fun buying and playing with for a time but will (after their novelty has worn off) then only want to use when you feel like playing with your bino collection since your older bino was actually better for critical optical use (e.g. birding!) all along.
--AP


I would have to disagree with you that the Leica's are not any better than the Nikon LX L's. I have had them both and the Leica's have noticably better contrast and the view is more vibrant and alive. Just an observation. I personally had blackouts problems with the Nikon LX L's(for that matter all the Nikon's except the Monarch's).

Dennis

[FrankD]

I have had them both and the Leica's have noticably better contrast and the view is more vibrant and alive.

Yes, but the key question is did you have both at the same time? :-) I couldn't resist Dennis considering that you are probably the only person on here who swaps bins more often than I do. ;) I would be willing to bet that the blackout issues with the LXs and SEs were due to the eye relief combined with the larger ocular lenses.

I hope to put your comments to the test his afternoon. All the "honey-dos" are done for the day and I do not have to work my second job. Plenty of time for comparing the Leica to the Nikon and Pentax. Life will be good this afternoon.

[mayoayo]

Chartwell/Alexis,

Thank you again for the further comments. I am going to take a trip to Cabelas this afternoon and compare the Meoptas, Leicas and Zeisses. I am already leaning towards the Leicas because of all the comments here and my experience with John's Ultravids but want to give the other two a fair shake.
Hi Frank.......Once you get to cabelas,why dont you take a look at the bushnell custom 7x26....?.......Do they carry them?.maybe a good ,not too expensive way to get aquainted with 7 X .......and scratch that itch at the same time.....the fact is that im interested in them and would like to know how good a glass it is.......

[FrankD]

mayoayo,

I wish I could help with those Bushnell Customs as they have my curiousity peaked as well after all the positive comments on them. Sadly though Cabelas does not carry them so I would not be able to even try them out. I have the 7x35 Action EXs and enjoy the wide field of view and excellent depth of field. My question in that regard though would be "How much is due to the 7x and how much is due to the porro prism design?" Guess I will find out shortly. Too dark to try the Trinovids out now and you don't know what I just went through to actually get them in my hands. ;)

[mayoayo]

mayoayo,

I wish I could help with those Bushnell Customs as they have my curiousity peaked as well after all the positive comments on them. Sadly though Cabelas does not carry them so I would not be able to even try them out. I have the 7x35 Action EXs and enjoy the wide field of view and excellent depth of field. My question in that regard though would be "How much is due to the 7x and how much is due to the porro prism design?" Guess I will find out shortly. Too dark to try the Trinovids out now and you don't know what I just went through to actually get them in my hands. ;)
Chasing the FED-EX truck around town????? .....I have been there......

[FrankD]

Chasing the FED-EX truck around town????? .....I have been there......

Close...UPS. I was told to be at the main depot, about 40 minutes away, at 7:00 pm but the driver didn't come back in until almost 8. I had one of the my little guys with me so we had to find something to do for about an hour.

[FrankD]

For those folks who did not see my post in the Leica forum....

As most folks have found the focus is a bit "notchy" and not quite as smooth as some of the other focusing mechanisms on the market. I have read the threads on this forum in regard to that issue.

A week or so ago I had the opportunity to try a 7x42 Ultravid and found the focus to not be notchy whatsoever. When I commented about this to the owner he mentioned that after he bought the bin he would casually rotate the focusing knob back and forth even when he did not have the bins up to his eyes. Operating with that information I did much the same thing today when driving from one job to the next. Time was about 45 minutes.

When I had a break at my second job I picked up the Trinovids and went to focus on some birds outside. What I found was that the image wasn't "coming together" for me. After a little examination I found that the diopter for my right eye needed to be readjusted significantly. When I picked the bins up yesterday and when I used them today the diopter was at a "0" setting. After the drive this afternoon I then had to have the diopter set at +2.

On the ride home from my second job I again rocked the focus knob back and forth to see if it changed the diopter setting a second time. Now that I am home and attempted to check the settings I find I must have the diopter set to +3 clicks in order for it focus in both barrels.

After some deliberation I have decided to return them to Cabelas. My options at this point are as follows:

1. I can assume this was an isolated case (though postcardcv's post on a similar issue in the Leica forum has me a bit unnerved) and buy another one of the same bins.

2. I can go with my second or third choices, the Meopta Meostar or Zeiss Conquest ABK.

3. I can just give in and sell my Pentaxs and use the extra money to buy either the 8x32 Leica Trinovid, Swarovski 7x42 SLC/8x30 SLC or something else yet to be mentioned.

Thoughts? Suggestions at this point?

Thank you.

[Tero]

I forget, what is your experience with Swarovskis? I figured I might get some some day, just to have that experience. Maybe not use them that often, since I really don't like to risk loss or theft.

[FrankD]

I forget, what is your experience with Swarovskis?

Tero,

Very limited. The only one I have actually looked through at this point was the 8x30 SLC and that was before the redesign. I know Cabelas had the "old" version of the 8x30 SLC in green and black on sale for $800 last year but do not know if that offer is still in effect. The redesigned SLC is right around $950 and still an option. I have no experience with the other SLC models but the 7x42 comes very highly recommended.

[Tero]

I guess I would lean toward 8.5x models. Depends on the price I guess, I do like some 8x binoculars I have, but....

[FrankD]

To my knowledge Tero only the EL is offered in an 8.5x version. Those, sadly, are definitley out of my price range.

[Tero]

Yeah, a problem. I think I may look at some other brand 8.5x, the 8x stuff is pretty good, 8x30WB looks real nice.

Minox has 8.5x, in Minox BD 8.5x42 BR, but I can get that FOV in 10X, so not so appealing.

[henry link]

Frank, the new Kowa 8.5x44 ED binoculars look interesting to me.

[FrankD]

Frank, the new Kowa 8.5x44 ED binoculars look interesting to me.

Thanks Henry. Have you actually handled these or have you just seen the specs? How would they compare to the bins I am currently considering?

[ceasar]

I guess I would lean toward 8.5x models. Depends on the price I guess, I do like some 8x binoculars I have, but....

Tero,
You really should take a good, close look at Swift's 8.5 x 44 Roof Prisms. I spent about 5 minutes looking through one at the Hawk Mountain Store a couple of weeks ago and I was very impressed with it's view and construction. I also looked through a Swar 8.5 x 42 and it was admittedly VERY impressive and had a wider FOV, but it also cost about 1300 bucks more than the Swift. Looking at it from a dollar for dollar viewpoint, I'd have a hard time justifying buying the Swaro's. And now Henry notes that Kowa has an 8.5 x 44 roof prism that bears looking into.
cordially,
Bob
:news:

[Tero]

Thanks. Never quite made up my mind on if the Swifts are rugged enough. I think the roofs are more rugged than the porros.

[henry link]

Thanks Henry. Have you actually handled these or have you just seen the specs? How would they compare to the bins I am currently considering?

All I know about the Kowas comes from this thread: http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=66028

Kowa knows how to make good stuff, but until now their serious efforts have been confined to scopes and large binoculars.

P.S. Here's a link with a street price of $1260. Could be a bit high since the list is only $1350: http://www.buytelescopes.com/product.asp?pid=11039

[Swissboy]

P.S. Here's a link with a street price of $1260. Could be a bit high since the list is only $1350: http://www.buytelescopes.com/product.asp?pid=11039

It says "lightweight" in these specs, but actual weight is not given. From the thumbnail info in that other thread, I thought they were rather on the heavy side. At least considering the fact that they are touted as being in the top range. Or else, it's a question of 44 vs 42?

[FrankD]

I thank you folks for all of the thoughtful suggestions. John Traynor and I spent a good portion of this afternoon at the local Cabelas comparing all of their best selection of bins. For what it is worth here is a brief synopsis of each of the bins I looked at:

Cabelas XT 8x42: Much dimmer than the rest but good resolution and very good overall image quality for the $250 price. Made in Japan for those who check for place of origin. Not really in the running but I like to see what is in the affordable roof prism selection.

Leica 8x42 Ultravid: Exceptionally bright with a wide and sharp view. Moderate edge distortion and little CA. Ergonomics were very agreeable. Too expensive to be considered.

Leupold Cascade 8x42 Porro: Very bright image with great edge sharpness and excellent resolution. As others have mentioned the internal focus/waterproof design has to be the next step in the evolution of porro prisms. Eye relief was good but the view exhibited somewhat of a tunnel effect because of the narrow field of view. If it had more of a walk in effect then these would be a steal at this price.

Leupold Golden Ring 8x32/8x42: I am grouping these together because the view was pretty much identical minus a small increase in brightness with the larger bin. Field of view was fairly good as was resolution. Brightness wasn't on par with the top Zeiss, Swaro, Leica or Nikons. Zeiss Conquest ABK was even a bit brighter. I seem to remember having a more favorable impression of them the last time I looked through them so maybe this was a bad sample.

Meopta Meostar 8x42: Biggest surprise of the bunch. Image, IMHO, was very comparable to the Swaro SLC. Very good colors with a relaxed view and good edge sharpness. This one almost went home with me. Focusing and center hinge adjustment were a bit less refined than its more expensive European counterparts. Definitely competed with them from an optical standpoint though.

Nikon Monarch 8.5x56: Big Daddy! Heavy with poor balance but the image was very bright and pleasing with very good resolution. If someone could figure out how to balance these then they would make excellent bins in low light or for long distance viewing. Not really in the running but the first time I had a chance to pick these up.

Nikon Premier LXL 8x42: Bright view with excellent edge sharpness. I already have its predecessor so this one was never in the running. A good baseline for comparison though.

Swarovski 8.5x42 EL: Very relaxed view with excellent colors and a fairly flat field. Its resolution was only bettered by the FL and Ultravid but without the cost to edge sharpness. Ergonomics were very good. Out of my price range as well but I can see why everyone prefers this bin.

Swarovski 7x42 SLC: Very bright with a wide, relaxing view. Best edge sharpness of the bins I was seriously considering.

Swarovski 8x30 SLC: Wide, relaxed field of view. Compact and lightweight compared to many of the other bins. Was definitely in the running until the very end.

Swarovski 10x50 SLC: Brighter than everything else but also much larger and heavier with a somewhat front heavy balance. Superb image though with great color and excellent edge sharpness. I can see why folks still buy these despite the size and weight.

Zeiss Conquest ABK 8x40: Excellent resolution and a very bright image. Narrower field of view was noticeable compared to other Alpha bins. At $760 though I do not think there was another bin in this price range with this performance. Very lightweight as well.

Zeiss 7x42 FL: Brightest of all bins in this size range with the sharpest center of field. Noticeable sweet spot in center with some distortion over a portion of the outer field of view. The superb sweet spot takes one's attention away from the degree of edge sharpness. Probably the most vivid colors of any bin examined.

So what did I end up with? Well it was a tough decision. Finalists included the Zeiss Conquest ABK, Swaro 8x30 and 7x42 SLC, Meopta Meostar (and also a refurbished 7x42 Zeiss FL in the Bargain Cave). All of the others bins mentioned either were out of my price range or lacked something in optical performance or handling.

The final group seemed to combine the best of what I was looking for....superb image quality presented in a well balanced ergonomic package in the $750-$1250 price range. I think I would have been happy with any of them but after alot of comparison of optical qualities, build quality, focusing mechanisms, comfort levels, etc.... I ended up buying the Swarovski 7x42 SLC. It had the most relaxed, comfortable image with excellent balance and handling. The focus knob was fairly fast but very precise. Everything seemed extremely well put together and the image quality was exactly what I was looking for...a bright, wide, flat field of view with great colors and excellent resolution.

After making the selection I had a few "surprises". This was the last 7x42 SLC they had in stock so I received a 5% discount coupled with a $150 gift certificate for a future purchase at Cabelas since I spent more than $500. I subsequently put it to good use when I got home by spending it on a backordered pair of 8x32 Trinovid BNs from Cabelas web sale. With the 90 day no payment plan I should be able to swing together enough to cover both bins. Ofcourse, the Pentax SP 8x32s are going to have to go up on the auction block as are the 7x35 Nikon Action EXs but I should have little need for either at this point.

Thanks again for all of the help folks.

[Pileatus]

I thank you folks for all of the thoughtful suggestions. John Traynor and I spent a good portion of this afternoon at the local Cabelas comparing all of their best selection of bins. For what it is worth here is a brief synopsis of each of the bins I looked at:

Cabelas XT 8x42: Much dimmer than the rest but good resolution and very good overall image quality for the $250 price. Made in Japan for those who check for place of origin. Not really in the running but I like to see what is in the affordable roof prism selection.

Leica 8x42 Ultravid: Exceptionally bright with a wide and sharp view. Moderate edge distortion and little CA. Ergonomics were very agreeable. Too expensive to be considered.

Leupold Cascade 8x42 Porro: Very bright image with great edge sharpness and excellent resolution. As others have mentioned the internal focus/waterproof design has to be the next step in the evolution of porro prisms. Eye relief was good but the view exhibited somewhat of a tunnel effect because of the narrow field of view. If it had more of a walk in effect then these would be a steal at this price.

Leupold Golden Ring 8x32/8x42: I am grouping these together because the view was pretty much identical minus a small increase in brightness with the larger bin. Field of view was fairly good as was resolution. Brightness wasn't on par with the top Zeiss, Swaro, Leica or Nikons. Zeiss Conquest ABK was even a bit brighter. I seem to remember having a more favorable impression of them the last time I looked through them so maybe this was a bad sample.

Meopta Meostar 8x42: Biggest surprise of the bunch. Image, IMHO, was very comparable to the Swaro SLC. Very good colors with a relaxed view and good edge sharpness. This one almost went home with me. Focusing and center hinge adjustment were a bit less refined than its more expensive European counterparts. Definitely competed with them from an optical standpoint though.

Nikon Monarch 8.5x56: Big Daddy! Heavy with poor balance but the image was very bright and pleasing with very good resolution. If someone could figure out how to balance these then they would make excellent bins in low light or for long distance viewing. Not really in the running but the first time I had a chance to pick these up.

Nikon Premier LXL 8x42: Bright view with excellent edge sharpness. I already have its predecessor so this one was never in the running. A good baseline for comparison though.

Swarovski 8.5x42 EL: Very relaxed view with excellent colors and a fairly flat field. Its resolution was only bettered by the FL and Ultravid but without the cost to edge sharpness. Ergonomics were very good. Out of my price range as well but I can see why everyone prefers this bin.

Swarovski 7x42 SLC: Very bright with a wide, relaxing view. Best edge sharpness of the bins I was seriously considering.

Swarovski 8x30 SLC: Wide, relaxed field of view. Compact and lightweight compared to many of the other bins. Was definitely in the running until the very end.

Swarovski 10x50 SLC: Brighter than everything else but also much larger and heavier with a somewhat front heavy balance. Superb image though with great color and excellent edge sharpness. I can see why folks still buy these despite the size and weight.

Zeiss Conquest ABK 8x40: Excellent resolution and a very bright image. Narrower field of view was noticeable compared to other Alpha bins. At $760 though I do not think there was another bin in this price range with this performance. Very lightweight as well.

Zeiss 7x42 FL: Brightest of all bins in this size range with the sharpest center of field. Noticeable sweet spot in center with some distortion over a portion of the outer field of view. The superb sweet spot takes one's attention away from the degree of edge sharpness. Probably the most vivid colors of any bin examined.

So what did I end up with? Well it was a tough decision. Finalists included the Zeiss Conquest ABK, Swaro 8x30 and 7x42 SLC, Meopta Meostar (and also a refurbished 7x42 Zeiss FL in the Bargain Cave). All of the others bins mentioned either were out of my price range or lacked something in optical performance or handling.

The final group seemed to combine the best of what I was looking for....superb image quality presented in a well balanced ergonomic package in the $750-$1250 price range. I think I would have been happy with any of them but after alot of comparison of optical qualities, build quality, focusing mechanisms, comfort levels, etc.... I ended up buying the Swarovski 7x42 SLC. It had the most relaxed, comfortable image with excellent balance and handling. The focus knob was fairly fast but very precise. Everything seemed extremely well put together and the image quality was exactly what I was looking for...a bright, wide, flat field of view with great colors and excellent resolution.

After making the selection I had a few "surprises". This was the last 7x42 SLC they had in stock so I received a 5% discount coupled with a $150 gift certificate for a future purchase at Cabelas since I spent more than $500. I subsequently put it to good use when I got home by spending it on a backordered pair of 8x32 Trinovid BNs from Cabelas web sale. With the 90 day no payment plan I should be able to swing together enough to cover both bins. Ofcourse, the Pentax SP 8x32s are going to have to go up on the auction block as are the 7x35 Nikon Action EXs but I should have little need for either at this point.

Thanks again for all of the help folks.
Frank,

I'm impressed you remembered all those details!

Following Frank’s SLC 7X42 purchase, we went in search of a local Glossy Ibis, which we did not find. We did, however, closely compare two 7X42’s…the SLC and the Ultravid. Here’s my summary.

The Ultravid may be brighter (Frank saw this immediately), but the difference to my older eyes is minor. Contrast is excellent in both bins and it was EXTREMELY difficult to determine which binocular delivered better color. In the store, I compared the 7X42 SLC to an EL 8.5X42 and found it very difficult to determine any meaningful difference in color saturation, sharpness, or contrast. Clearly, SLC optics have been improved.

Resolution is superb in both binoculars and there is absolutely no question when the image snaps into focus in either binocular. If an image doesn’t snap into focus, I don’t consider the binocular worthy of use. There are $100 porro prism binoculars that snap into focus and I am shocked that so many mid-priced roofs fail to meet that standard.

CA is very similar, but I think the SLC has a bit less than the Ultravid. CA is NOT seen in the central portion of either image but, due to the wide 420’ FOV, it can be viewed off-center in high contrast situations.

Sweet spot….
There is NO QUESTION that the SLC delivers a more immediately enjoyable sweet spot…to my eyes. I also saw a bit less distortion in the SLC, which some will find attractive and/or essential for their viewing pleasure.

Eye relief, with the eyecups fully closed, is greater (better?) in the SLC. I wear eyeglasses and the SLC gives me a slightly better walk-in view than my Ultravid.

Weight
SLC = 33 ounces
Ultravid = 27 ounces
The SLC is so well designed this weight difference is not immediately obvious. I use my Ultravid all day with the contoured Leica strap; I’m sure I’d opt for a harness if I carried the SLC for more than a few hours.

Handling
My Ultravid fits my hand like a glove. SLC 7X42 designers should get an award for thumb groove design and balance. IMO, both models are more than user-friendly for anyone accustomed to a full-size binocular. Both designs are so good they deliver a virtually shake-free 7X image.

Cost:
Ultravid $1645; SLC $1269. Obviously, the SLC is the better value!

Conclusion:
I recommend both models be seriously considered if you’re looking for a 7X42 binocular. Add the FL 7X42 to your list and you have the three best 7X42’s to choose from.

PS
The Leupold Cascade 8X42 porro prism has an image that is only tarnished by a somewhat narrow FOV. If you have $300 to spend and want a waterproof binocular with an exceptionally sharp, undistorted view, take a look at this model. When this design starts appearing with wider fields of view, I think sales will skyrocket. The view is just too good to ignore.

[Tero]

7x35 Nikon Action EXs
keep them for your kids..easy to use

[FrankD]

keep them for your kids..easy to use
__________________

Thank you for the suggestion Tero however, I have two Leupold Yosemite 6x30s...one for my 4 year old (and he loves them) and one for my 4 month old (though Daddy is going to use them in the mean time. ;) ). I do not expect alot of money for the Action EXs as they were only $130 originally but every little bit helps when you are trying to finance a substantial credit card bill. ;)

By the way, the SLCs are excellent! I took them hawkwatching at local "perch" yesterday and found them to be very useful for that application. Their extremely wide, flat field made locating hawk extremely easy and enjoyable. I traded off back and forth between them and the Venturers. I would be happy using either for that application. Now we just have to see how the Trinovids fair.

[Tero]

I would say that you will get next to nothing for them. If your kids do get interested in birding, they may well be interested in 7x, though in general kids see much better than we adults with almost any binocular, as long as they are at least 7 or 8 yrs old. And my daughter likes the EX series as she wears glasses. Many kids get glasses at school age first time.

[FrankD]

I would say that you will get next to nothing for them.

Maybe, maybe not though I agree with your assessment of 7x bins for kids. They are great. :)