Sound recording and sonograms – an absolute beginner

[Capercaillie71]

I have always considered sound recording and sonograms to be the expensive preserve of a technically-minded few. However, as a result of reading other threads on birdforum (particularly this one - http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=65692) I have become interested in the use of these techniques for bird identification, and in particular for the identification of the different types / species / subspecies of crossbill.

I thought it might be of help to others starting out in this field to share my experiences as an absolute beginner, trying to find a way of sound ID without breaking the bank. Hopefully, more knowledgeable people may also be able to provide me with advice as I proceed.

I should state at the outset that I am not looking to produce high quality sound, just usable recordings. I am trying to do this on a budget, because a) I have limited time available to spend in the field so an expensive set-up could not be justified in terms of the likely outputs and b) if I (with my total lack of experience) can get a cheap set-up to work it might encourage others to take up the challenge and add to our knowledge of crossbills and other species.

[Capercaillie71]

Obviously, first of all, I needed a microphone and some sort of recording device. After reading one of griffin’s posts I bought an Audio-Technica ATR 55 for about £60 including P&P. This is a shotgun microphone designed for use with camcorders and has two settings (telescopic and normal).

The recording device was more of a gamble. I have seen a number of suggestions on birdforum including old-fashioned tape recorders, minidisk players, ipods and flash recorders. Griffin’s advice was that it is important to record in the uncompressed wav format, as compressed formats such as mp3 may lose some of the frequencies required to produce a sonogram. Unfortunately most of the recording devices that I could find that recorded in wav were a bit too expensive (£200-300). I understand that some of the latest ipod models can record in wav but mine is a couple of years old so I could not use that. Eventually I found a cheap wav voice recorder (Denpa MP38) on ebay for £75 (new). Even though I couldn’t find any further information about it I thought it was worth a gamble at that price.

There is a photo of my set-up below. As you can see, it is fairly compact and portable (for opportunistic use if I am out for a walk). I reckon I will be able to record up to 4 hours of material at a time at the highest quality setting.

For sonograms I again followed griffin’s advice and downloaded the free gram23 software, which I found via google.

[griffin]

Yeah, that mic looks familiar, very much like my Monocor which is basically a rip-off of the ATR55.

Have you got any sound samples yet Paul ? Would be interested to hear how your recorder performs and how much gain it achieves. The great thing about Mini Disc recorders is that you can manually pump the gain right up with a mic like that, and although there will be some noise from the mic it will grab quite distant sounds like crossbill flight calls, clear enough for a sonogram. If it has an automatic gain setting you are at the mercy of the machine.

I need to do a survey of some "common" patches around Durris, Fetterso etc soon - you are welcome to tag along, and I can maybe give you some tips having also been at the "entry" level re-equipment myself ! Most of my prized recordings are so far with my "old" cheapo setup, though the Telinga is earning its keep nicely !

PS there are "parakeet" types at Durris just now and possibly Bohemian.

Linz

[Capercaillie71]

Right then - my first attempts at recording.

Given that I don't get crossbills in my garden, the nearest approximation I could find was a trilling greenfinch at the top of a cherry tree.

I recorded about a minute of trilling, imported it to my PC (the recorder came with a USB connector) and ran the file through gram23.

The result was something that looked like the interference between channels on a television. I messed about with some of the settings on gram23, settings like FFT, theshold etc. - no idea what they mean. Some smudgy fingerprints appeared on the sonogram (see first picture below), but still not very good.

At this point, a little disheartened, I decided that I should try to edit my sound file and pick out the clearest section. I don't have any dedicated sound editing software, but I discovered that I could load the wav file as an audio track into my camcorder editing software (Ulead video studio), cut out the best bit and save it to a new wav file. At the same time I upped the sound levels a bit in the video editor.

I'm not really sure what the video editor did to the wav file, but when it came out the other side, my 700KB one minute recording had become a 2.2MB 13 second recording. Apparently the bit rate (whatever that is) of the file had increased from 88kbs to 1400kbs.

Anyway, without really knowing what I had done, I ran the new wav file through gram23 and amazingly this time I got a recognizable sonogram (see second picture below).

The bursts of 3 - 6 vertical lines near the bottom of the sonogram represent the trilling of the greenfinch. The sloping lines and other marks above these are some coal tits that flew past as I was recording.

I don't know if this sonogram is any good, but I was pleased to at least get something at this early stage. The bird was about 10-15 metres away as I was recording and I certainly managed to get this close to calling crossbills at Fetteresso and in the Forest of Birse during the summer.

Linz, there is a mic gain setting that you can adjust on the recorder - I can't remember how it was set when I made this recording.

I would be interested in coming on one of your survey visits if I am available - nothing like learning from an expert.

[ermine]

At this point, a little disheartened, I decided that I should try to edit my sound file and pick out the clearest section. I don't have any dedicated sound editing software, but I discovered that I could load the wav file as an audio track into my camcorder editing software (Ulead video studio), cut out the best bit and save it to a new wav file. At the same time I upped the sound levels a bit in the video editor.


Nothing wrong with using a piece of software that does the job, but if you were after a dedicated sound editor the open source (free) editor audacity is pretty good

http://audacity.sourceforge.net/

I'm not really sure what the video editor did to the wav file, but when it came out the other side, my 700KB one minute recording had become a 2.2MB 13 second recording. Apparently the bit rate (whatever that is) of the file had increased from 88kbs to 1400kbs.

You don't say what model recorder you have but I guess this is a voice recorder, which btw is dead useful for field notes - I use one myself. These usually sample at 8kHz, which will restrict your audio frequency range to 4kHz, and usually compress the audio to get it on the chip. That's not totally optimised for bird recording.

The shortening of the duration might be ulead interpreting the file as a 48kHz sampled file, which is what it needs to author a DVD. Does the sound still sound like a greenfinch when you play the 13s clip?

[Capercaillie71]

Nothing wrong with using a piece of software that does the job, but if you were after a dedicated sound editor the open source (free) editor audacity is pretty good

http://audacity.sourceforge.net/



Thanks for that link - I have downloaded and it looks just the job.



These usually sample at 8kHz, which will restrict your audio frequency range to 4kHz, and usually compress the audio to get it on the chip.

I have no idea about the frequency range - the instructions have been translated from chinese with limited success. However, it does claim the ability to record as uncompressed wav files as one of its main selling points:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/DENPA-MP38-DIGITAL-VOICE-PHONE-RECORDER-WIRELESS-MIC_W0QQitemZ7598179200QQihZ017QQcategoryZ62041QQs sPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


The shortening of the duration might be ulead interpreting the file as a 48kHz sampled file, which is what it needs to author a DVD. Does the sound still sound like a greenfinch when you play the 13s clip?

Sorry I don't think I explained it very well in my last post. The shortening of duration was because I had saved a 13 second extract from the original recording. What I didn't understand was why this extract was 3 times the size of the original one minute file. It sounded perfectly alright.

I have attached another attempt at a sonogram from a 10 second extract.

[James Blake]

Hi

Can't offer any advice but look forward to hearing what you get up to.

best wishes
James

[ermine]

I have no idea about the frequency range - the instructions have been translated from chinese with limited success. However, it does claim the ability to record as uncompressed wav files as one of its main selling points:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/DENPA-MP38-DIGITAL-VOICE-PHONE-RECORDER-WIRELESS-MIC_W0QQitemZ7598179200QQihZ017QQcategoryZ62041QQs sPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Sorry I don't think I explained it very well in my last post. The shortening of duration was because I had saved a 13 second extract from the original recording. What I didn't understand was why this extract was 3 times the size of the original one minute file. It sounded perfectly alright.

I have attached another attempt at a sonogram from a 10 second extract.

This link

http://www.spyemporium.com/digital_audio_recorders_voice_denpa_mp3_player_lon g_recording_mp38.html

indicates that this records to wav ADPCM compressed, which would explain the 3x expansion I guess. ADPCM compresses by saving the difference between one sample and the next. Audacity will tell you the sampling rate and compression type when it opens a file - the highest frequency you can record is half the sampling rate.

The increase in bit rate when saved by ulead, probably uncompressed supports the ADPCM compression. The bit rate of 1400kbps is typical of CD rate WAVs (sampling rate x bits per sample x number of channels / 1000 = 44100x16x2 = 1411kbps)

If you choose your section using Audacity then you can adjust the volume of the clip so the peaks go as high as they can without maxing out (ISTR Audacity has a normalise function which will do this automatically). That will set the loudest bit, which corresponds to the black bits. You then tinker with the threshold control to stop the the background noise making snow on your picture - with a clear recording you ought ot be able to set this to about 40dB. It is a trade off with cutting off fine details and losing everything in the mush - you have to fiddle with it to see what works for your gear. You probably want os leave FFT at the default until you get more used to what the software does. Adjusting your clip for full level in Audacity and adjusting threshold in gram should give you clear sonograms if you have a clear recording. You're on the right general track - experience and fiddling with the threshold variable will get you good results.

[Capercaillie71]

You're on the right general track - experience and fiddling with the threshold variable will get you good results.

Thanks for the help ermine. Reassuring to know I'm on the right track. It will be interesting to see how well this set-up works at greater distances from the birds.

Yesterday I received my copy of 'The Sound Approach to Birding' by Mark Constantine

http://www.soundapproach.co.uk/

I would reiterate what Linz said on the crossbill thread. This is a great book and even for a beginner like me, it is easy to follow but packed with information. Anyone interested in this subject should buy it if they can.

[griffin]

I used the "telescopic" setting on the mic at all times. As for the mic gain try the recorder on the highest ( most sensitive) setting and see how you get on. It may introduce more noise but will help pick up faint chippy crossbill calls. This setting will aslo introduce more handling noise as well though.

Linz

[ermine]

It will be interesting to see how well this set-up works at greater distances from the birds.
.

You're probably pushing the envelope of a voice recorder with agc at much greater distances than 10-20m. You just have to give it a go and see if it pans out, but if you find you can't get enough level out of the recording in distant situations where you can still hear the birds then you might want to see if you can borrow a MD from somewhere...


Yesterday I received my copy of 'The Sound Approach to Birding' by Mark Constantine

http://www.soundapproach.co.uk/



I had a chat with Mark at Birdfair, they get up to interesting antics on the Dutch coast. I hadn't realised you could pick up flight calls with a parabolic dish even if you couldn't hear them unaided, I will give this a go on the east coast this autumn.

Since you have the book, you can record some of the CD tracks and play with the sonogram software there. You then can see what the sonogram should look like in the book and find what adjustments of thrshold give you similar results.

[griffin]

I hadn't realised you could pick up flight calls with a parabolic dish even if you couldn't hear them unaided, I will give this a go on the east coast this autumn.


Crossbill flight calls at 200 yards = black on sonogram with a Telinga Pro6 Twin Science. Got a Parrot at Abernethy with my ME67 and it was same distance but not as strong. Recorder both times Fostex FR2, incase anyone is interested.

With my cheapo Monocor I can ID flight calls on sonogram up to 100-150 yards depending on conditions when Mini Disc recorder is used. Some experience needed in reading the sonogram though as vital components are often missing or faint.

Great for "flyovers" which for most people is what crossbills are. At a native pinewood on Sunday ( with Telinga ) I didn't even see a crossbill but recorded Scottish and Parrot flight calls, and some Parrot song. If the birds are moving about in the canopy it is often difficult to see them when you are under a blanket of it. That said it was unusual in that I often get good looks at them, though this particular site is reknowned as being "stubborn" and is easy to blank it.

Linz

[griffin]

I would be interested in coming on one of your survey visits if I am available - nothing like learning from an expert.

Not sure I would call myself an expert ! I am certainly not a technical geek that is for sure. However, when it comes to sniffing out crossbills
(anywhere) I don't fail (often), so perhaps a 'crossbill finding expert' ? Will let you know the next Sunday that is available to come along - I ring on Sundays though so it will be weather dependent.

I am calling Magnus Robb ( of Sound Approach ) sometime in the next week when he gets back from recording Stormies to ask his advice on something and he also considers himself "untechnical" and instead relies on his ears ( as a musician like me ) and his intuition and fieldcraft in getting the birds. Basically he goes out and "does" it. He recommended the Fostex FR2 ( which he also uses ) even though I had heard negative views elsewhere about it's suitability for bird recording. A listen to one of his recordings will completely refute such claims. Formula's and bumf and mic specs etc don't always equate to producing a good recording ! Also, all equipment, including Telinga mics, have limitations and it is being able to work within these limits that is the real skill.

I am really pleased you are having a go and hope it will encourage others to do so, especially all the whingers that say Scotbill shouldn't exist because they can't ID it !

Keep working on the Greenfinches as some of their chipping is very similar to crossbills ( so much so that people mistake them ). Chaffies are also good to practice on and although the cadence of their flight calls is slower than a xbill, it is about the same intensity so will give you an idea of distance effectiveness of your set-up.

Linz

[Capercaillie71]

I've been playing around in my garden again. It was a bit windy and I had to make do with the small number of birds available, but here are two more sonogram attempts.

The first sonogram shows two bursts of blue tit at about 20 metres (the first two bursts of vertical lines) and a final more smudgy mark of a jay that called about 50 metres away (quite rare for my garden too).

The second sonogram shows jackdaws calling about 250 metres away.

In both cases I had the mic gain at maximum and amplified the file in audacity, as ermine suggested.

[ermine]

You're struggling a bit for signal to noise ratio. You need to move closer to the birds or choose louder birds. The wind won't help - there are things you can do to help with that. A sock over an old mesh peanut feeder, with the mic held in the middle with rubber band so it doesn't touch the sides can lose most of that.

A blue tit at 20m away is not a loud noise. It is a lot less loud than close speech which is what a voice recorder is engineered to handle. I do feel that if you are after working at that sort of range with such low level signals you need a better recorder. From the looks of your sonograms you have learned how to control signal levels and adjust threshold adequately.

You'll find it easier when things aren't particularly windy. What you need is a bunch of friendly and vocal Sparrows, then make some recordings at different distances from them to get a feel for range.

Getting clear recordings at a range further than you can easily see in 8x binoculars is always going to push the capabilities of recording equipment. Do you have a camcorder with a mike input? Try using that to record - the audio signal quality of MiniDV is rather good. Don't use the inbuilt camcorder mike - the noise of the motors which wipe out any bird sounds. You can also try putting the mic into your PC on a long lead and using Audacity to record directly to the PC from your backyard birds with the mic pointed out of the window, see if this gives you a better range?

[ermine]

For a comparison, this is a sonogram of a Curlew making that lovely bubbling call, and the settings I used. The bird is about the same distance as your Jackdaws. Wind was about 25mph and the mic was a Sennheiser MKE 300D which is generally similar to the performance of yours

[Capercaillie71]

That's a nice clear sonogram ermine. If and when I catch up with some crossbills my main aim will be to see if I can at least get something that is identifiable. You may well be right that I will struggle with the voice recorder, but it will be an interesting learning curve.

I haven't been out this weekend as I have had a bad cold, but hopefully I will have a chance before too long.

[ermine]

Bummer about the cold. The curlew wasn't a great recording BTW - that is the one starting 46 seconds into this

http://www.suffolkbirds.co.uk/audio/060902_melton_curlew_600HPFord3.mp3

and the signal to noise is dreadful - the wind was 25mph and there's a busy road about 100 yards behind.

I really struggled looking for crossbills in Scotland April this year. I failed totally to connect with one in the Abernethy forest where they are meant to be two a penny. Finally heard one faintly in high winds by using a parabolic dish in the Culbin forest which was so far away I had to use a scope to see it at the top of a tree.

[g8ina]

Just got my first useable recording. I use Cool Edit Pro 2 which produces a decent colour sonogram, attached. Bandpass filtered at 2kHz to 16kHz, and image sharpended slightly with freq up on RHS.

My first bird, however, is a bit of a mystery. I suspect it one call of the many faceted Great Tit. I uploaded the MP3 to HERE (http://www.harrisphotography.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Bird002.mp3) and would appreciate an ID if poss.

Kit : 32" parabolic dish + stereo dynamic mics into iRiver H120 recording in WAV format.

Crits welcomed.

Ta,

[ermine]

Just got my first useable recording. I use Cool Edit Pro 2 which produces a decent colour sonogram, attached. Bandpass filtered at 2kHz to 16kHz, and image sharpended slightly with freq up on RHS.

My first bird, however, is a bit of a mystery. I suspect it one call of the many faceted Great Tit. I uploaded the MP3 to HERE (http://www.harrisphotography.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Bird002.mp3) and would appreciate an ID if poss.

Kit : 32" parabolic dish + stereo dynamic mics into iRiver H120 recording in WAV format.

Crits welcomed.

Ta,

I go for Great tit. Has the curious "hee-haw" pace and rhythmn characteristic of this species.

I've attached a sonogram of one I recorded earlier in the year (http://www.suffolkbirds.co.uk/article/40/great-tit-expelling-chaffinch-from-the-same-tree) which shows distinct similarities. Indeed, to my eye they look more similar than they sound similar...

[ermine]

stereo dynamic mics into iRiver H120 recording in

Are they really dynamics, ie not electrets, but moving coil low output jobs? I would've thought electrets would have matched the recorder better in terms of background hiss? OTOH you can soak dynamics and they'll keep going I suppose...

[g8ina]

Thanks Ermine, that Gt Tit MP3 has several sections which match my sonogram quite accurately.

The iRiver does not provide phantom power AFAIK, and my son bought the mics from the States, ID unknown, but stated as dynamics. He uses them on his laptop, which certainly doesn't provide any power.... I really need to find the source as he needs them back ! I may have to just buy some good electrets and build a PSU for them....

Cheers,

[griffin]

I really struggled looking for crossbills in Scotland April this year. I failed totally to connect with one in the Abernethy forest where they are meant to be two a penny. Finally heard one faintly in high winds by using a parabolic dish in the Culbin forest which was so far away I had to use a scope to see it at the top of a tree.


Bummer ! Of course it helps if you are obsessive ( like me ).

All the bits in Abernethy that are supposedly good are crap IMO eg. Loch Mallachie trail. I have never even heard one there. Gotta go "deep" I am afaid. Sure, some lucky blaggers see em at the Osprey Centre but this is sporadic.

I was lucky to get a dozen or so fly-bys in July in the presence of Dr. Ron Summers, including a Parrot fly-over as I got out of the car ( which is always nice and takes the pressure off ). Anything in Abernethy just now really will be a Parrot or Scottish, incase anyone is going up.

However, I am still getting over seeing those TB's in Sweden eating from closed Scots Pine - guess they were hungry.

Have always fancied a jolly up to Culbin, but as we have not had an irruption (yet) this year I don't think it will happen soon.


Linz

[griffin]

You may well be right that I will struggle with the voice recorder, but it will be an interesting learning curve.


It will work Paul, but it will have limitations. I think distant flight calls may be out, though wait and see. A minidisc would have allowed you to boot the volume right up, and on the "telescopic" mic setting would be effective in moderate wind conditions up to 100-150 yards. Would be faint on the 'gram though. with more experience you can read even more distant sonograms.

However, with your set-up if you can get under the tree they are feeding in any excitement and flight calls ( as they exit ) should be loud and clear.

Let me know how things are going and we'll see about meeting up and see if we can get some of these "parakeet" type X jobbies for you to refine your technique - if we can't find any in Deeside just now we should be shot. :eek!:

Linz

[g8ina]

If it's of any use guys, the iRiver H120 is a very good WAV and MP3 recorder, with a 20GB HDD, plenty of space to leave it on all day ! RRP around the £200 mark. Mine also carries MP3s of my birdsong CDs so I've always got my reference handy too.

sorry for my little hijack btw !

[Capercaillie71]

sorry for my little hijack btw !

No problem - all good information.

£200 for the iRiver is a bit more than I wanted to spend. Maybe if I didn't already have an ipod it would have been a good idea. Perhaps in retrospect a second-hand minidisc from ebay might have been a good idea. Interested in ermines' suggestion of using a camcorder. I might give that a try, although I remember my wife wanting to take some film of our daughter and then finding that I had used up all the tape with some poor-quality footage of capercaillies lekking. Better not make that mistake again!

[ermine]

Thanks Ermine, that Gt Tit MP3 has several sections which match my sonogram quite accurately.

I may have to just buy some good electrets and build a PSU for them....



Scummy electrets will be ok - the gain of the parabolic dish is before the mics not after :) and the PSU isn't hard - a 9V battery and a couple of resistors. You can buy these as a concert taper's battery box if you don't fancy the construction

http://www.suffolkbirds.co.uk/article/61/electret-paralleling-experiment

You can't knock the price of 50p each :)

[ermine]

Have always fancied a jolly up to Culbin, but as we have not had an irruption (yet) this year I don't think it will happen soon.
Linz

I started early in Abernethy - basically after I'd been at the osprey centre to see the Capercaille lek which the RSPB were using the watchpoint for. Zilch. In Culbin I connected listening from the wildlife pond, but the xbill was at the top of a tree about 100yards away. The wind was awesome - just the noise from the top of the trees was massive, and I was getting arm muscles like popeye from holding the dish into the wind.

[griffin]

The wind was awesome - just the noise from the top of the trees was massive, and I was getting arm muscles like popeye from holding the dish into the wind.

Yeah, had a day like that at Derry Lodge last week - thought I was going to take off with the Telinga, and my wrists were killing me ! Still got some good calls though, which was amzing given the conditions. Incidentally, I find the Rycote windcover for the dish really good, and keep it on always. I know Ron does as well.

The ME67, as good as it is, would just fart in those conditions even with the LPF on. I did however use it for recording the flight calls of trapped birds on Sunday and it was really good, well impressed - we caught a total of 17 "Pine" Crossbills BTW, 11 Parrots at once ! That's gotta be a record ?

Linz

[ermine]

My first bird, however, is a bit of a mystery. I suspect it one call of the many faceted Great Tit. I uploaded the MP3 to HERE (http://www.harrisphotography.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Bird002.mp3) and would appreciate an ID if poss.


Looks like I called this wrong - Geoff Sample on naturerecordists figures this is a Coal Tit doing the hee, and a Dunnock delivering the haw in turn. With the ticking of a robin in the background, which is clear now I listen to it again.

If Geoff Sample says that's what it is I figure he's right - he's listened and recorded a heck of a lot more than me. I will try this on my stereo to see if it is clearer.

[ermine]

Yeah, had a day like that at Derry Lodge last week - thought I was going to take off with the Telinga, and my wrists were killing me ! Still got some good calls though, which was amzing given the conditions. Incidentally, I find the Rycote windcover for the dish really good, and keep it on always.

I find the noise of the wind in the trees gets crazy before the mic itself needs the cover. Though what the cover does do for me is damp out the 'dong' resonance of the dish when insects fly into the dish ruining the recording on hot summer days :)

Holding it steady in the wind got easier when I discovered the value of a monopod with a ball-head so I can stand the weight off on the ground.

[griffin]

Holding it steady in the wind got easier when I discovered the value of a monopod with a ball-head so I can stand the weight off on the ground.


That's a good tip, thanks. What kind of ball head would you recommend ? Have thought about a mono for the camera for some time so it would get dual use.

[ermine]

That's a good tip, thanks. What kind of ball head would you recommend ? Have thought about a mono for the camera for some time so it would get dual use.

I used a manfrotto 484RC2 (http://www.warehouseexpress.co.uk/index.cfm?binsandscopes/tripods/manfrotto.html#sbh) with a MF Carbon One (old version of the 694). If you don't need the QR plate you can save even more weight and use the small ball head, but it gets a drag switching the dish for your scope or camera.

That saves a lot of fatigue and handling noise using the dish at up to head height.

[g8ina]

Looks like I called this wrong - Geoff Sample on naturerecordists figures this is a Coal Tit doing the hee, and a Dunnock delivering the haw in turn. With the ticking of a robin in the background, which is clear now I listen to it again. If Geoff Sample says that's what it is I figure he's right - he's listened and recorded a heck of a lot more than me. I will try this on my stereo to see if it is clearer.

I replied to Geoff over there, thanks Ermine/Stoat.. ;)

I've also updated my recording page with a few more MP3s and sonograms, see sig for details.

Thanks again

[Capercaillie71]

if we can't find any in Deeside just now we should be shot. :eek!:


I'm slightly embarrassed that it has been four months since I started this thread and I have totally failed to progress with recording the crossbills. Today, however, that all changed!

I should explain that, with a one-year old daughter, my opportunities to go out searching have been very limited, but on the few occasions that I have managed, I have had almost no crossbill activity at all (just a couple of brief, distant fly-pasts). It doesn't help that most of the woodland around here is wall-to-wall Scots Pine which, in the absence of Parrot Crossbills, are unlikely to attract crossbills until the cones ripen a bit more. However, even the pockets of larch and spruce that often hold crossbills seemed deserted.

Today, I visited a more diverse plantation, with lots of spruce, larch, douglas fir etc. As soon as I got out of the car, about a dozen crossbills flew over, chipping / jipping / glipping away. Unfortunately they were gone in a couple of seconds. After a couple more equally frustrating episodes, I spotted a small flock flying into a Scots pine (ironically), in the middle of a large clearfell. Stumbling over brash and falling down deep drainage ditches I made my way over to them with the recorder switched on and was able to watch them feeding from about 20-25 metres away. At first they were just making insipid twittering sounds, but after about five minutes they started chipping and then flew off calling a few seconds later.

One point I should make about my voice recorder is that it is not much use for brief flyovers. You have to press one button to switch it on (which takes a couple of seconds) and then another to start recording. Unfortunately, you can't leave it switched on in anticipation as it automatically switches off after a minute or so if unused.

I didn't have any earphones with me so I didn't know what I had managed to record until I got home. I have attached a couple of sonograms below, which look quite good to me. The first is the calls just before they took flight and the second is as they flew off. I have had a look at the sonograms in the Sound Approach and they look most like the 'British' or 'Parakeet' crossbill flight calls to me. Hopefully a crossbill expert (Griffin?) will be able to help with the ID.

[griffin]

Hi Paul,

Sorry I must have missed this post.

Aha, the classic crossbills in the car park syndrome - happens to me all the time so I often have the recorder primed as I get out !

Both your sonograms are "parakeets" or 1B's as I call them. The first one is classic, however in the second one ( on right) the initial downward component is faint making it look like a 1A "British". This is possibly down to the limitations of the recorder and the distance.

Were they managing to open the Scots Pine ? I watched a flock try on the 27th but all the fallen cones were unopened ( though they had tried ). Also beware there are a few 4E's (glips) kicking about Deeside.


Linz

[Capercaillie71]

Hi Linz,

Thanks for that confirmation. I had just about settled on Parakeet, but wasn't sure how consistent the (very subtle) differences between British and Parakeet flight calls were.

I don't think they were actually opening pine cones - I certainly didn't see or hear any cones or bits of cone falling down. No idea what they were feeding on but the next tree they flew to was a birch.

Now that I've got it to work, I just need to find more crossbills. Are you finding any 1A's in Deeside at the moment?

[griffin]

Now that I've got it to work, I just need to find more crossbills. Are you finding any 1A's in Deeside at the moment?

There are crossbills everywhere just now - even had a flock flyover this morning whilst ringing finches and tits at Hazelhead in Aberdeen today ! They sounded 1A. Have had 1A's at Durris, Fetteresso, Strachan but most are 1B's with decent numbers of 4E's associating with them - approx 65-70 %Commons appear to be 1B's the rest mainly 4E's.

One of our fellow Birdforum members has been getting a similar mix in the plantations down in Lothian, so for the East coast of Scotland at least it seems to be these two distinct populations this year. I have had parakeets in Deeside before the irruption in Summer 2005 though this definitely inflated their numbers.

Had some 1A's last Jan at Derry Lodge as Larch and Spruce was poor last Winter and birds were on Scots Pine - you will see this record in NESBR 2005 when it gets published.

A sound recordist I am corresponding with in Switzerland is getting completely different Common call types and presumably these are different populations !

Fascinating stuff !


Linz

[BIG]

Did you like the names griffin? I notice you use Parakeet but not British. We named them to open the subject to birders and to stop being told that they sounded like strains of hepatitis.

[griffin]

Did you like the names griffin? I notice you use Parakeet but not British. We named them to open the subject to birders and to stop being told that they sounded like strains of hepatitis.

I do and I don't if I am honest Mark. I guess its the overwhelming success of the "Sound Approach" book that other birders are now familiar with the terms so I use them. ;) If this turns them on to recording crossbills then that is great as far as I am concerned. I do think the RSPB nomenclature is a bit clinical but I guess this is what I am used to.


BTW I consider "parakeet" flight call and Fc1 per Summers et al the same thing as far as taxonomic classification (of the calls ) is concerned - they are probably different "types" or local dialects though this remains to be proved. There is no doubt that parakeets give excitement call B ( eg. 1B) and Brits give excitement call A (so 1A) though the exact context of these calls remains to be discovered.

Trapped and released Common Crossbills that I have recorded recently have produced some interesting results and this should be published in the nearish future.

Lindsay

[BIG]

Overwhelming success :-O thats the ticket.We've sold over 900 so far so while its not quite Mullarny and Svenson we are delighted.

I worry about using the term dialect with any aspect of Crossbill sounds, feeling that the word has been used as an excuse for everything that was not easily explained in bioacoustics. A plague on clear thinking in my opinion. Names are always an interesting aspect of birding although I don't think A was ever going to catch anyones imagination. Parakeet hasnt got an RSPB no. so needed someting. What would you have done with the vocal types if you had a chance to name them?

I'll look forward to reading your research, maybe we can modify the definitions in the next edition of The Sound Approach. ;)

Mark

[griffin]

Overwhelming success :-O thats the ticket.We've sold over 900 so far so while its not quite Mullarny and Svenson we are delighted.

All the people corresponding with me on xbills recently have read Sound Approach and are using terms such as parakeet , British, glip etc so I think it has been a success as far as crossbills are concerned.


I worry about using the term dialect with any aspect of Crossbill sounds, feeling that the word has been used as an excuse for everything that was not easily explained in bioacoustics. A plague on clear thinking in my opinion. Names are always an interesting aspect of birding although I don't think A was ever going to catch anyones imagination.

I reckon there are definitive "types", species and or subspecies if you like, but the (small) variations within types I would class as examples of dialect. There are variations of dialect even within Scottish Crossbill for example, and I believe this is often geographic. We have a prevalent call type on Deeside for example.


Parakeet hasnt got an RSPB no. so needed someting. What would you have done with the vocal types if you had a chance to name them?
You are right, but given how the nomenclature criteria has been designed it would be classed as 1B ( gives Fc1 and EcB ). I would have done what Ron Summers did which itself was influenced by Jeff Groths ideas. But I guess it is 'scientific' rather than 'aesthetic', but then I am a musician who used to be a scientist so a bit of a dilemma !

I'll look forward to reading your research, maybe we can modify the definitions in the next edition of The Sound Approach. ;)

.....I may be some time ! Have got examples of call interchange and call divergence that shake things up a bit, but right now am writing up a short paper on Parrot Crossbill Ecology in Deeside.

Lindsay

[Capercaillie71]

but right now am writing up a short paper on Parrot Crossbill Ecology in Deeside.


Where is that likely to be published, Lindsay?

[griffin]

Where is that likely to be published, Lindsay?


I dunnoe ! Where do you suggest ! Possibly NESBR 2006, though Crossbills are a bit 'old hat' in there..... (o)<

Given the general attitude that prevails with crossbills maybe nowhere will touch it. I am hoping that BB will publish it as a short paper/note ( it would be about 3-4 pages in that format - some nice pics of birds, text mainly observational / behavioural comments that have thus far not been described etc ).

If no-one takes it it will go on the WWW. :scribe:

This is all part of a broader and long term study re-examining the ecology and population dynamics of Pine Crossbills in NE Scotland which has only really just started for me last year as it was the first year I could get colour rings on birds, as well as call data v. biometrics, thanks to the help of my trainer Derek Robertson along with Rab Rae and Mick Marquiss. The latter two of course are acknowledged ( and well published) experts on crossbills, so I am lucky to have such expertise to hand for help.

Lindsay

[BIG]

Dutch Birding has a very positive attitude to Crossbills. They try to cover all of Europe and probably dont get much from Scotland. Perhaps you could consider them.

How do you see the current attitude to Crossbills?

[griffin]

Dutch Birding has a very positive attitude to Crossbills. They try to cover all of Europe and probably dont get much from Scotland. Perhaps you could consider them.

How do you see the current attitude to Crossbills?

I was referring to some of the threads on here regarding Scottish Crossbill and particularly on Birdguides when they did their article following the RSPB press release last Autumn. This was on the whole totally negative - guys that spend £1500 on a Swaro scope but who would not spend £100 to ID Crossbills and or other birds, therefore because you need "specialist sound gear" they don't exist. Some may even spend more chartering planes to see a Fair Isle year or life tick which really makes me laugh. :-O

Thankfully a (very) few Birdforum people and some from Birdguides responded positively to the press release and your recent book which deals with Crossbill taxonomy. ;)

Editors may be concious of this prevailing mindset, though I agree should not be influenced by it. It will get published by whoever accepts it first ! I think
BB will publish my recent paper as a short note. :brains:

Lindsay

[BIG]

Mmm I re-read the original Scottish Crossbill thread with Poeciles response from last August and felt the need to reply now six months later. I think being the first to get to grips with a new concept can be a little wearing. Gull enthusiasts find the same. Dutch Birding have led the way on new species concepts and George Sangster the taxonomist who was responsible often felt unfairly criticised. Now most of the ideas presented by the "dutch" are considered true and accepted. Still species concepts have caused a fuss since Darwin.

[Capercaillie71]

I haven't updated this thread for a while but I have been out and about a bit more recently looking for crossbills. This has been frustrating at times. For example when I got very close to two crossbills they refused to call, thus resulting in this thread:

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=78689

More distant and flyover birds have been pushing the limits of my recording equipment, although I have managed to get some (just about) usable sonograms from fairly faint recordings. On Griffin's advice I have started using Raven Lite for sonograms. It is a much more professional piece of software than Gram23, is easier to use and to adjust sonogram brightness / density etc., and best of all it is completely free. Download it here:

http://www.birds.cornell.edu/brp/RavenLite/RavenLite.html

One practical issue that came to light when I was trying to record and photograph crossbills is that you need at least three hands! Fortunately the Audio-Technica ATR 55 microphone comes with an attachment to connect it to a standard camera flash mount, so it just sits on top of the camera.

[griffin]

One practical issue that came to light when I was trying to record and photograph crossbills is that you need at least three hands!

Or a helper !

I only tend to do one or the other. I used to have my mic and Mini disc strapped to my scope though, but wasn't good for those fly-overs.

LC

[Capercaillie71]

OK. I haven't updated this thread for a while, but I've been playing around a bit more. ON the advice of just about everyone, I have upgraded my recorder to HiMD minidisc. I got a 2nd hand Sony MZ NH700 for £40 from Amazon market place. The final straw with the old recorder was the lack of a line-in socket for use with my new bat detector. Having said that I still haven't got the bat detector to work with the minidisc but that is a different story.

As I had been warned, the method of maximising the mic gain with the minidisc is incredibly fiddly and the sonic stage software needed to download the files to my computer is annoying to use. However, the sound quality is greatly improved and I am able to get reasonable sonograms in situations where the old recorder would really have struggled.

[Capercaillie71]

Here are some examples of sonograms I have managed to get with the new kit.

First is a singing chaffinch in my garden - nice and easy and quite close.

Second is a churring Nightjar from my recent trip to Norfolk. A bit of wind noise here, but again the bird was quite close.

Finally a Grasshopper Warbler from a field near my house last night. Not as close and struglging with background noise from a river (I'm sure the old recorder wouldn't have got anything here) Quite similar to the Nightjar but at a higher frequency.

Now I just need to go and look for some crossbills!

[markgrubb]

Particularly like the chaffie song-as I run the song through in my mind it just fits in perfectly with the wavelength and the amplitude of the sonogram. Keep going with this good thread

[Capercaillie71]

Just realised Birdforum now allows mp3 uploads, so I've converted the wav files for the three sonograms above, using Audacity and uploaded them.

[Birdspotter]

[QUOTE=Capercaillie71;922627]OK. I haven't updated this thread for a while, but I've been playing around a bit more. ON the advice of just about everyone, I have upgraded my recorder to HiMD minidisc. I got a 2nd hand Sony MZ NH700 for £40 from Amazon market place.

Hi Caper,
I have been thinking of getting a small and compact recording set up for a while now, and your set up seems to fit my aim.
I hope to have a go at some of these Xbills down here in Lothian, as well as recording some other species like Warblers perhaps.
Is your recorder a Sony Walkman and what mic do you or anyone else advise to get.
I am thinking a Sennhesiser might be worth getting, although they are expensive I can at least get a cheap recorder from e-bay thus keeping my costs down.

[Capercaillie71]

Hi Caper,
I have been thinking of getting a small and compact recording set up for a while now, and your set up seems to fit my aim.
I hope to have a go at some of these Xbills down here in Lothian, as well as recording some other species like Warblers perhaps.
Is your recorder a Sony Walkman and what mic do you or anyone else advise to get.
I am thinking a Sennhesiser might be worth getting, although they are expensive I can at least get a cheap recorder from e-bay thus keeping my costs down.

This could be a good time just to recap the set-up that I am now using:

1) Microphone - Audio Technica ATR55 (http://www.dv247.com/invt/froogle/2703/). Seems to be available for around £50 now.

2) Recorder - Sony MZ-NH700 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sony-MZ-NH700-Silver-Hi-MiniDisc-Walkman/dp/B0001ZN772) HiMD Minidisc recorder. This model is discontinued, but I got one 2nd hand for £40. New, latest model HiMD minidisc recorders seem to be around the £200 mark. Using a Sony minidisc recorder requires you to download Sony's sonic stage software to get the sounds off the recorder and onto the computer. This is a free download.

3) Software - I use Audacity (http://audacity.sourceforge.net/) to edit my clips / make extracts etc. I then use Raven Lite 1.0 (http://www.birds.cornell.edu/brp/raven/Raven.html) to make the sonograms. Both of these software packages are free.


Others may have different views but I think this is probably a reasonably good set-up for casual use at a total cost of about £100. Obviously a more expensive microphone will probably yield better results, but it all depends how much you want to pay.

[Birdspotter]

Cheers for links and info, cant wait to get my first calls !

[Birdspotter]

Anybody any thoughts on the Sony MZRH1B.EU recorder.
I might be wrong but it seems Sony are dropping mini-disc, so I might toil to get one, if this is the case what's the next alternative ?

I tried and failed on e-bay for one of five Sony MZ NH700,s on offer,all of which seem to have been snapped up.
Computer problems at the wrong moment,:C

[griffin]

Anybody any thoughts on the Sony MZRH1B.EU recorder.
I might be wrong but it seems Sony are dropping mini-disc, so I might toil to get one, if this is the case what's the next alternative ?

See this (http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=87205) thread.


Over £200 though last I looked. The New Fostex FR2LE is really good (esp. with firmware update) but is £399.

Hope this helps !

Linz

[ermine]

Anybody any thoughts on the Sony MZRH1B.EU recorder.


Dog's B**cks that one is - you won't go wrong with one of those. It also has the brains to remember you run in manual mode, which saves seven keypresses and five seconds on startup. Some folks grouch about the non-standard battery pack but Uniross do replacements and a charger to go (I think they call it a 'prism' shape) which solves most of those issues if your expeditions go for more than about four hours continuous recording. The only thing to watch if do not record with the remote control attached if you need ot crank the gain full up - powering the electroluminescent background light can give you a faint buzz, particularly if you run that right next to the mike lead.

No CF recorder at the price comes close for bird sound recording. even if you can find the extra £200 for a £400 cf recorder, you would be better off spending the extra dosh on a better mike - say an ME66 rather than a MKE300 which will enable you to get clearer recordings in a wider range of situations than the cheaper mike and better recorder. The MKE300 is stil a great mike for starters - just that if you have ~£550 to spend a £300 mic and £220 HiMD recorder gets you further than a £130mic and a £400 recorder.

You could, however bear in mind that for birds the recording season is going to get a bit quieter till Spring next year, so you have a fair amount of time to see if you can strike a good deal on a HiMD recorder on ebay, and perhaps a mic too. I had to wait several months to get a decent price on some mics there - a couple of weeks is nowhere near enough to get a bargain unless you're very lucky.

[Birdspotter]

Thanks Guys,
I have decided to go with the Sony RH1 which my local Sony store has in stock.
However for a mic I have decided at this stage I cant really justify 250 quid on one, so I will go for the cheaper Sennheiser 300.
There seems to be quite a few different varieties of the MK300, which one should I opt for, is it the camcorder version?

I could take your advice Ermine and wait a bit for a cheaper deal, but as we get more into the birdless summer months I need something to do !
It was Dragonfly's last year, and will be again, but this time with some bird calls done as well.

cheers and chip chip to the next xbill calls:t:

[griffin]

However for a mic I have decided at this stage I cant really justify 250 quid on one, so I will go for the cheaper Sennheiser 300


You'd do well to get a ME67/66 and K6 module for £250 ! Would be at least £350 and not inc. handle or windgag which could add up to £150 or more. My total setup was over £500 for ME67, K6, Reinhardt whisper wind shield and PG2 pistol grip.

Go for the basic MKE300 NOT the digital camcorder version (which tends to be dearer).

This will give you a really good entry level set up and the limitations re-distance and signal to noise can easily be transcended by good field craft.

Linz

PS Beware Sonic Stage - it is the anti-christ !

[Birdspotter]

Cheers for that Griffin.
Saved some money already as I ordered the Sony online from Amazon,the local Sony centre quoted me 250 quid plus VAT!! No brainer there then.

I have looked at the mic and I can get it for 107quid(sorry about the quid signs its my keyboard playing up, I just get this #).

Liked the header to your last post:t:

Not sure I should ask this,but WTF is Sonic Stage?
I have a feeling I will soon find out though!

Calum.

[Birdspotter]

[QUOTE=griffin;
Go for the basic MKE300 NOT the digital camcorder version (which tends to be dearer).

Have you a direct link to this mic as I can only seem to find the camcorder version at 107 nicker ?

cheers

[Ceejay2000]

Hi Birdspotter,
MKE300 at £93.41 atThomann, you might need to check but I believe it is postfree also. I have bought several items from them. No problems.
Regards Charles

[markgrubb]

Cheers for that Griffin.
Saved some money already as I ordered the Sony online from Amazon,the local Sony centre quoted me 250 quid plus VAT!! No brainer there then.

I have looked at the mic and I can get it for 107quid(sorry about the quid signs its my keyboard playing up, I just get this #).

Liked the header to your last post:t:

Not sure I should ask this,but WTF is Sonic Stage?
I have a feeling I will soon find out though!

Calum.

Sonic Stage is the free software that comes with Sony players and allows you to transfer and process sound files

[ermine]

The ME67 may be £500 with all the trimmings but the 66 can be had a little cheaper. These guys

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-SENNHEISER-K6-ME66-with-RYCOTE-SOFTIE-and-XLR-CABLE_W0QQitemZ300122492600QQihZ020QQcmdZViewItem

are knock-downable a little if you take the obvious hints in their ad and ring them up directly and order by credit card, and this offer is the lot incl rycote softie, fur, pistol grip et al. ISTR the damage for the whole lot was £365.

The MKE300 is still an excellent bird mike and works very well with HiMD, which has got enough gain so you can boot the signal up to hear what you are doing through the mic. The Rycote D190 special furry windgag on that will let you get up to 5-8mph winds, after which the noise in the trees is enough of a pain that the buffetting of the mic isn't the main problem. You don't need the D version unless you do want to use it with your camcorder, in which case that takes out the whining noise of the tape deck motor. It is slightly susceptible to handling noise for me - the LF crackling of muscle tensions in the hands. A cheap and nasty mini-tripod surrounded by foam pipe lagging to make a larger grip worked to kill that for me.

Make sure you use SonicStage 3.4 of greater - the version on the included CDs can be pretty old. Else you only get one cut at transferring out your tracks digitally.

http://forums.minidisc.org/index.php?showtopic=18523

is a source of the latest news on that. You want to have as little as possible running on the computer during transfer, and ideally the MD connected straight to a USB port on the computer. Some people have had grief with Sonicstage but I haven't on any of the four computers I run that on, ever since I learned not to edit tracks on the MD in the field (ie delete mis-takes on the HiMD to try and reuse the space)

[griffin]

Not sure I should ask this,but WTF is Sonic Stage?
I have a feeling I will soon find out though!

Calum.

Hi Calum,

Oh, you are in for a treat ! Sonic Stage is the MD software interface between your MD recordings and your computer. Im my experience it is shite. A recordist correspondent I know ( who is very careful of SS's 'quirks' and takes all the precautions) lost 14 valuable tracks whilst uploading to computer. Klas Strandberg, virtuoso Swedish mic builder of Telinga fame, records from his HiMD to his computer in REAL TIME, such is his lack of faith in SS. Remember,this guy, eh does this stuff for a living.

The price of the ME66 kit quoted by Ermine is very good and should tempt a few people. However, IMO the ME67 will be better for faint xbill calls which seem important for your needs. The MKE300 will be the best cheap mic option - a recording setup of a MZRH1 and a Sennhesier mic for under £300 is pretty damn good IMO.

See this (http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=88737) thread on how to get an identifiable crossbill sonogram when it seemingly wasn't possible eg. from a pretty gash recording. This guys equipment was nowhere as good as what you are proposing buying.

Linz

[griffin]

A cheap and nasty mini-tripod surrounded by foam pipe lagging to make a larger grip worked to kill that for me.


Everyone, that is a great tip for these small mics that come with no handle eg. MKE300, ATR55, ME66/67 etc

[Birdspotter]

Thanks Mark,Ceejay 2000,Ermine and Griffin for latest gen as well as Capercaille for starting this excellent thread.

My heart is now set on the mk300 mic, largely because of its cheaper cost to other Seinnheiser's, but also as a good start up option.

Besides the football season is nearly upon us, don't you all know how many Hibs games that will get me into with the savings!B (:

[Birdspotter]

Hi Birdspotter,
MKE300 at £93.41 atThomann, you might need to check but I believe it is postfree also. I have bought several items from them. No problems.
Regards Charles

This site is the bee's knee's!
ME 66 for 127 spoondonglies and the ME 67 for 191 spoondonglies but that's before the furry bits are added on !

Still going with the MKE 300 though, as my team calls.

The one on offer is the video version,I still cant find this basic version though that Griffin and Ermine mentions, does it exist, is it a myth or a phantom even, just like some of these Crossbills.;)

[griffin]

Besides the football season is nearly upon us, don't you all know how many Hibs games that will get me into with the savings!B (:

The way they have been playing they should be letting you in for nothing ! :-O


Linz ( a Hun )

[griffin]

The one on offer is the video version,I still cant find this basic version though that Griffin and Ermine mentions, does it exist, is it a myth or a phantom even, just like some of these Crossbills.;)


Try here (http://www.keene.co.uk/electronics/multi.php?mycode=MKE300) . They sell both models. Not sure which one Thomann are selling - they are afterall both designed as video mics. You could give them a call or email to check


Linz

[ermine]

This site is the bee's knee's!
ME 66 for 127 spoondonglies and the ME 67 for 191 spoondonglies but that's

Remember for the ME series you need a K6 powering module on top of that which makes that £160 extra...

[Birdspotter]

:-O


Linz ( a Hun )

Sorry to hear that, is it treatable?;)

Thanks for your support on this thread anyway.

[Birdspotter]

Remember for the ME series you need a K6 powering module on top of that which makes that £160 extra...

And that's the difference between the posh seats and the common people's seats at Easter Road, I will still stick with the mke300!

[Murray Lord]

Just curious what settings people use in Raven Lite? Do people change the three variables (brightness, contrast and sharpness) for every single recording, or do you have preferred settings you use all the time?

Murray

[markgrubb]

And that's the difference between the posh seats and the common people's seats at Easter Road, I will still stick with the mke300!

Much better atmosphere amongst us common people in the East Stand though.... Goodluck with the recording

[Birdspotter]

Much better atmosphere amongst us common people in the East Stand though.... Goodluck with the recording

Thanks Mark, do you do much recording yourself, and if so what system do you use?

As for ER I was in the upper West, but I am usually inamonst all the kids in the lower famous five, although I seem to be on my feet all the time letting endless streams of kids get to the pie stalls!
That's the downside of having a mate with two kids.
The upper famous five seats directly behind the goals are a dream, padded and all!!
As for the east,yes it has a great atmosphere, but you get a great view of the hibees bounce were I sit.

glory,glory

[markgrubb]

Thanks Mark, do you do much recording yourself, and if so what system do you use?



No, but my daughter has abandoned her minidisc player for an ipod so I am really quite tempted-might think about treating myself at Xmas!! Suspect it will be a project for later years though-a relative latecomer to birding and still learning-still it would have been nice to have recorded the various songs and calls at local nuthatch/wood warbler sites I have been going to regularly.

Where do you most regularly come across crossbills in Lothian?-for me it's really only been occasional encounters at Tyninghame

[Birdspotter]

Where do you most regularly come across crossbills in Lothian?-for me it's really only been occasional encounters at Tyninghame

In most years the woods around Tyninghame have Xbills, but in some years good numbers can be seen.
I had a flock of 60+ birds coming down to drink at a pool one year.

The best spots for xbill in Lothian as far as I am concerned are around Harperigg, with similar plantations at nearby Cobbinshaw, it is in these areas i plan to search them out.

Nearer to Edinburgh, I saw good numbers in Dalkeith Country Park one year,although these might have been in an irruption year.

Yellowcraig used to be the best spot at one time, there's no reason to think that they still hang around that spot.

Working in the building trade I am on roofs a lot, in irruption years this pays off with several sightings largely picked up on call as well as Waxwings, so they can occur anywhere.

[Birdspotter]

[QUOTE=markgrubb;931307]No, but my daughter has abandoned her minidisc player for an ipod so I am really quite tempted-might think about treating myself at Xmas!! Suspect it will be a project for later years though-a relative latecomer to birding and still learning-still it would have been nice to have recorded the various songs and calls at local nuthatch/wood warbler sites I have been going to regularly.

There you go then your more than halfway there, all you need is a decent Mic.
As Capercaille stated you can pick up the Telinga tr55 for 55 spondoolies, so no need to wait untill xmas.
As for relativly new to birding I think that this would be the right time to start learning about calls. I have been birding since 1976 and I think I am s*** when it comes to them. I only wished something like The Sound Approach had opened my eyes/ears earlier,that way i might be a little bit sharper.
So no time like the present.

I believe there was at least two singing Wood Warbs at Lowrie's this year.

[markgrubb]

[QUOTE=markgrubb;931307]
There you go then your more than halfway there, all you need is a decent Mic.
As Capercaille stated you can pick up the Telinga tr55 for 55 spondoolies, so no need to wait untill xmas.


Oh, the temptation,will count the pennies when back next week from Menorca with family.........

[Capercaillie71]

Just curious what settings people use in Raven Lite? Do people change the three variables (brightness, contrast and sharpness) for every single recording, or do you have preferred settings you use all the time?

Murray

I change them every time as the quality of the recordings can be so variable, but I'm just a beginner, so I might be doing it wrong!

[Capercaillie71]

[QUOTE=Birdspotter;931350]

Oh, the temptation,will count the pennies when back next week from Menorca with family.........


You know it makes sense!;)

The reason I went down the cheap and cheerful route was that I knew I wasn't going to have a lot of time to devote to sound recording (you can see from this thread how little I have actually achieved in the past year!), but I wanted to see if I could get a set-up that was effective for casual use, which might encourage others to give it a go. So far it seems to be working!

[Birdspotter]

[QUOTE=markgrubb;931386]


You know it makes sense!;)

The reason I went down the cheap and cheerful route was that I knew I wasn't going to have a lot of time to devote to sound recording (you can see from this thread how little I have actually achieved in the past year!), but I wanted to see if I could get a set-up that was effective for casual use, which might encourage others to give it a go. So far it seems to be working!


Yep youv'e snared two deranged hibby's so far.
Keep up the good work.

[Birdspotter]

Hi Again guys,

One last question regarding the Sennheiser MKE300 mic.

I have searched the web and the best price I can get/see for this mic is 93GBP for the MKE300 Video version and 129GBP for the standard MKE300 version.

Now what if any difference in sound quality are there between these two similar mics.

Obviously no point in buying the MKE300 version if the much cheaper MKE300Video version does as just a good job.

Thoughts please and thanks again.

[ermine]

Don't sweat this one - take the cheapest.

The MKE300 video version has a small piece of copper foil soldered to shield the mic amp near the mic capsule and termination. See attached pic. There is no difference in sound quality, other than the absence of the sawing noise if you stick this atop a video camera.

I guess reading between the lines Sennheiser screwed up by testing this as a pure audio product and then taking flak when people found it picked up hash from their camcorders when placed so close, hence the addition of the foil.

You have the additional advantage that if you do want to use it for video you're all set :)

[Birdspotter]

[QUOTE=ermine;935516]Don't sweat this one - take the cheapest.

Never mind Ermine you should be called Goldmine, as you are a Goldmine of information.
Cheers

[Birdspotter]

Hi Guys,
Just a quick word to say my Seinheisser MKE300 mic arrived in the post today as well as bump this excellent thread up.

Sadly still waiting for my recorder, as I had hoped that it would have arrived before Friday as I am off to Madeira, were I was hoping to have Zino's Petrel as my first recording.

Ah well will just have to do the next best thing, a Hibs game on the radio when I get back8-P

cheers and thanks for the gen on the mic

[Capercaillie71]

I haven't added anything to this thread for a while, but today I went for a walk in the woods where I had made my first crossbill recordings (way back in post #35, last December). There were quite a few crossbills about today, and I experienced both the positives and the negatives of the sony minidisc as a recording medium.

Firstly, I got caught out by the crossbills in the carpark scenario again. I was just setting up the minidisc player to record when I heard a small flock cheeping away in some trees not far away. As I frantically tried to press the right combination of buttons and navigate through the menus to maximise the microphone gain, the cheeping got louder and louder as the crossbills flew towards me, right overhead and then disappeared into the distance just as I had finished setting up the recorder. Very frustrating.

Fortunately I encountered a couple of flyover groups later on. However these were a bit further away (50-100 metres) and I wasn't sure that I would get a decent sonogram. As it turned out I got at least as good a sonogram with the minidisc at 50-100 metres (two sonograms on the left below) as I had got with my old voice recorder last year at 15-20 metres (sonogram on the right below), using the same microphone.

The crossbills this year seem to be the same call-type as last year (1B / Parakeet)

[Capercaillie71]

In case anyone's interested, here are mp3s of today's crossbills

[Birdspotter]

Hi all
A while since I posted on this thread, but I now have some xbill calls with my new gear.
I have transfered these using Sony's Sonic Wear to the computer, however I now need to get some sonagrams done, whats the best way of doing this?
I am a bit confused, do I need two different aplications,one to edit the softwear and another to create the sonagram, or can you do it all in one with say Raven or Cornell.

cheers

[Andrew Whitehouse]

Hi all
A while since I posted on this thread, but I now have some xbill calls with my new gear.
I have transfered these using Sony's Sonic Wear to the computer, however I now need to get some sonagrams done, whats the best way of doing this?
I am a bit confused, do I need two different aplications,one to edit the softwear and another to create the sonagram, or can you do it all in one with say Raven or Cornell.

cheers

The ones I've done, I've edited the sound with Audacity and then made a sonogram with Syrinx, (http://www.syrinxpc.com/) although Raven Lite does the job too. With Syrinx, you just open a WAV file and the sonogram is automatically generated. You can then fiddle with how it's presented.

[Capercaillie71]

The ones I've done, I've edited the sound with Audacity and then made a sonogram with Syrinx, (http://www.syrinxpc.com/) although Raven Lite does the job too. With Syrinx, you just open a WAV file and the sonogram is automatically generated. You can then fiddle with how it's presented.

I use a similar process. I use audacity to edit the recordings if the calls only occupy a small part of the total recording (as is often the case). When you open the recording in audacity, you can highlight the section containing the calls and then save that selection as a new wav file.

To get a sonogram you then have to use a program like Raven or Syrinx. I haven't used Syrinx, but in Raven, you simply open the wav file and the sonogram will appear automatically as one of two windows. You can alter the horizontal and vertical axes of the sonogram chart (and the contrast and brightness) until you get a reasonable image.

It would be interesting to see any sonograms you get.

[Birdspotter]

Hi All,
As I stated earlier I have managed some recordings, as well as downloaded the Audacity programme for editing them.

Now the nightmare begins!!

I have been at it all evening trying to work Audacity out, I sent some files over from Sony's Sonic stage but all I get is what can only be best described as a scream when I hit the play button, have I sent the files correctly and if not how do you do this?

cheers

please feel free to PM this useless fud

[Birdspotter]

Hi All,
As I stated earlier I have managed some recordings, as well as downloaded the Audacity programme for editing them.

Now the nightmare begins!!

I have been at it all evening trying to work Audacity out, I sent some files over from Sony's Sonic stage but all I get is what can only be best described as a scream when I hit the play button, have I sent the files correctly and if not how do you do this?

cheers

please feel free to PM this useless fud

I think I have worked out what exactly is the problem here.

In Audacity, once you have transfered your sounds over the file is shown on the screen in what I take to be WAV or some other type of format.
However my file is totally distorted, so a look in Audacity Help points me to the problem in that it says that the file has whats called a Vertical Rule between 1 and -1 and anything over will be distorted, my file is clearly well over this.
How can I sort that ?

To see what I mean go into
Audacity Help
Tracks> Audiotrack
and read the section entitled Vertical Slide

thanks for any help, particuarly Capercaillie71 whom PM'd me with some suggestions.

[Capercaillie71]

I think I have worked out what exactly is the problem here.

In Audacity, once you have transfered your sounds over the file is shown on the screen in what I take to be WAV or some other type of format.
However my file is totally distorted, so a look in Audacity Help points me to the problem in that it says that the file has whats called a Vertical Rule between 1 and -1 and anything over will be distorted, my file is clearly well over this.
How can I sort that ?



I don't know if you've made any progress with this, but it sounds like something has gone wrong with the file before it reaches Audacity (ie. during the Sonic Stage Transfer), particularly as you said the recording sounded OK on Sonic Stage.

I'll describe the process I use to transfer the files using Sonic Stage in the following post and you can see if you are doing anything different.

I am using Sonic Stage version 4.3

[Capercaillie71]

1) Connect HiMD recorder to PC with USB cable

2) Open Sonic Stage 4.3

3) Click on 'Transfer' (See picture 1 below)

4) Select tracks on HiMD window on right hand side (See picture 1 below)

5) Click on Transfer to 'My Library' arrow (See picture 1 below)

6) After the files have finished transferring, I close down Sonic Stage and open Audacity, click on File>Open, and browse to wherever the transferred files have been saved*


*To determine where the transferred files are saved by Sonic Stage, follow the procedure descibed in Picture 2 below:

1) Tools>Options>Transfer
2)Select device (HiMD) and click on 'Transfer Settings'
3) Under 'Transfer Settings' click on 'Advanced'
4) Under 'Advanced Transfer Settings' look at 'Import settings' and make sure 'Save in WAV format' is ticked and check/change the Import Location

Of course, this may be no use of you are using another version of Sonic Stage.

[Birdspotter]

Hi Capercaillie,

I have not had the chance to do anything more with it so far, however I did do a bit of reading up on it and I suspect that I did not save the files as WAV!

Thanks for the above, I will have a go after xmas again

cheers

[Birdspotter]

Hi Caper 71,

Thanks for the info, I went back to my original Crossbill recordings to see what format I had saved then in, only to find I had somehow deleted all of them:C

So today I set off in less than ideal conditions for another try at recording Crossbill's, I immediately found a feeding flock of twenty birds,rising to forty two later on.
I managed to get quite a lot of calls, mainly singing males but also some quite good excitement calls.

I have successfully downloaded these in wav format to Audacity, however the wind in the trees was at times a problem, but hopefully I can get some good sonagrams when I get some editing done.

Whilst recording I punched up the gain on the mike, however I found this to be quite awkward as I was holding both the mike and recorder at the same time and some thumb-ling can thus be heard, would it be better to put the mike on a small tripod say,thus keeing the hands free to use the controls more effectively and silently.
What do others do or use?

Will try for more calls tomorrow if the weather is better

Cheers

[griffin]

Hi Caper 71,

Whilst recording I punched up the gain on the mike, however I found this to be quite awkward as I was holding both the mike and recorder at the same time and some thumb-ling can thus be heard, would it be better to put the mike on a small tripod say,thus keeing the hands free to use the controls more effectively and silently.
What do others do or use?




What type of mic are you using Birdspotter ? I avoid tripods as it is just something else to phaff around with ! With my old mic (ATR55 Copy) I used to hold the recorder and mic in one hand, and would generally keep the gain set at between 80 and 95 % depending on wind conditions.

The wind in the trees as you describe is a problem and it will be like this when you are getting your best calls ! Perfect conditions IME tend to be the days when the crossbills are 'slow' or not playing ball. The recordings themselves may be pretty gash but you should still be able to get a sonogram from them - though these can often distort and break up the calls on the screen making reading them (more) challenging.

Lindsay

[Birdspotter]

What type of mic are you using Birdspotter ? I avoid tripods as it is just something else to phaff around with ! With my old mic (ATR55 Copy) I used to hold the recorder and mic in one hand, and would generally keep the gain set at between 80 and 95 % depending on wind conditions.

The wind in the trees as you describe is a problem and it will be like this when you are getting your best calls ! Perfect conditions IME tend to be the days when the crossbills are 'slow' or not playing ball. The recordings themselves may be pretty gash but you should still be able to get a sonogram from them - though these can often distort and break up the calls on the screen making reading them (more) challenging.

Lindsay

I am hand holding a Senn MKE 300, I was thinking about buying a pistol grip perhaps but that would also add on to costs as would a small tripod.

I had a look at the female screw section on the mike and I reckon if any one has a spare plasterer's haugh lying about, then the unscrew-able handle that many of them have might just fit.
The older the better as the new ones are made from plastic and the older one's from wood, thus perhaps acting as a better sound guard from handling.
Just a thought, don't know if it will work, mind if any of the work place's plasterer's are wondering were there haugh is, it wisnay me !

I was also thinking about a decent wind guard for the mike, what type do I get and how much are they.

cheers

[Ross Ahmed]

I would like produce sonagrams of bird calls/songs.

From what I gather having read this thread, the min outlay for kit which can produce sonagrams is about £150.

Is this right, or is there a cheaper way?

[Birdspotter]

I would like produce sonagrams of bird calls/songs.

From what I gather having read this thread, the min outlay for kit which can produce sonagrams is about £150.

Is this right, or is there a cheaper way?

Hi Ross,

A second hand mini-disc can be bought on e-bay for circa 50 quid say, or better still you or one of your brother's or sister's might have a disused one lying about the house.
As for the mic I think Capercaillie 71 stated at the start of this thread that he picked one up for sixty or so pounds.
So the answer to your question is yes, or even cheaper if you already have a recorder.

cheers

[Ross Ahmed]

Hi Ross,

A second hand mini-disc can be bought on e-bay for circa 50 quid say, or better still you or one of your brother's or sister's might have a disused one lying about the house.
As for the mic I think Capercaillie 71 stated at the start of this thread that he picked one up for sixty or so pounds.
So the answer to your question is yes, or even cheaper if you already have a recorder.

cheers

Thanks for that.

How do you get the recording off the mini disc and onto a computer?

[Capercaillie71]

How do you get the recording off the mini disc and onto a computer?

You need to use Sony's Sonic Stage software to transfer the recordings into wav files on your computer. See post #98 for details.

Once the recordings are in wav format on your computer you need to use software such as Raven Lite or Syrinx to produce the sonograms.

[Acanthis]

Hi folks, can I pick your brains?

I use a basic mike/tape recorder set up in the field for recording crossbills, and on the whole I'm happy with it, or I was. I still hear more than I can make sonagrams off. Many distant crossers go unidentified.

I've heard of folks using digital voice recorders for bird recordings and I want to know could I improve the recording quality with a DVR?

I use a Monacor ECM-920 which seems pretty good but since I haven't tried any other mike I have nothing to compare it with. How does it stack up against other mikes?

Maybe I should just say bugger it and get a Telinga?

[griffin]

Hi folks, can I pick your brains?

I use a basic mike/tape recorder set up in the field for recording crossbills, and on the whole I'm happy with it, or I was. I still hear more than I can make sonagrams off. Many distant crossers go unidentified.

I've heard of folks using digital voice recorders for bird recordings and I want to know could I improve the recording quality with a DVR?

I use a Monacor ECM-920 which seems pretty good but since I haven't tried any other mike I have nothing to compare it with. How does it stack up against other mikes?

Maybe I should just say bugger it and get a Telinga?

Hi Sandy,

I would stay away from voice recorders - will probably not be much better than what you currently use.

A more efficient system would be a Sony NET MD recorder with a Sennheiser MKE300 mic - total cost under £200.

Distant calls are a problem regardless of what you use - it comes down to experience reading the (faint) sonogram. Sometimes it is best to say " I can't be sure" !

You could say bugger it and get a Telinga, but you will be nearly a grand lighter and you would still need a better recorder !

Lindsay

[griffin]

I am hand holding a Senn MKE 300, I was thinking about buying a pistol grip perhaps but that would also add on to costs as would a small tripod.

I was also thinking about a decent wind guard for the mike, what type do I get and how much are they.

cheers

Don't buy a special grip - get one of those small mini 'desktop' tripods like Hama make ( check ASDA ! ) and stick the three legs into a piece of foam pipe lagging that you can buy at BnQ ( some peope use this on their scope tripod legs ). Gaffa tape around the foam to keep it together and viola instant low noise pistol grip. The tripod will have a either a screw or hot shoe fitting for the MKE300. Thank Ermine for this tip on another thread.

For wind gagging I use a Reinhardt Whisper system which is very good if expensive. Rycote also do a wide range of furry gags so just check that there is one for the MKE300. Remember though, this will only reduce wind buffeting the mic capsule directly, not reduce the effect of the wind in the trees you described earlier.

Lindsay

[Birdspotter]

Hi Ross and Acanthis,

Here's my set-up a Sony RH1 mini-disc, coupled with a 120 pound Senheisser MKE300 mic.

If you read this thread right through, the recorder comes recommended.

[Birdspotter]

Don't buy a special grip - get one of those small mini 'desktop' tripods like Hama make ( check ASDA ! ) and stick the three legs into a piece of foam pipe lagging that you can buy at BnQ ( some peope use this on their scope tripod legs ). Gaffa tape around the foam to keep it together and viola instant low noise pistol grip. The tripod will have a either a screw or hot shoe fitting for the MKE300. Thank Ermine for this tip on another thread.

For wind gagging I use a Reinhardt Whisper system which is very good if expensive. Rycote also do a wide range of furry gags so just check that there is one for the MKE300. Remember though, this will only reduce wind buffeting the mic capsule directly, not reduce the effect of the wind in the trees you described earlier.

Lindsay

Cheers for the tips Griffin.

[griffin]

Hi Ross and Acanthis,

Here's my set-up a Sony RH1 mini-disc, coupled with a 120 pound Senheisser MKE300 mic.

If you read this thread right through, the recorder comes recommended.

I am intrigued by the photo that the Collins and MD/mic are resting on. Surely not a piccie of a Hibee holding a trophy ? Did they have cameras way back then ? ;)

Lindsay

[Acanthis]

Hi Sandy,

You could say bugger it and get a Telinga, but you will be nearly a grand lighter and you would still need a better recorder !

Lindsay

Got some big debts to clear over the next few years so the Telinga is out, but one day....(sigh!)

[Birdspotter]

I am intrigued by the photo that the Collins and MD/mic are resting on. Surely not a piccie of a Hibee holding a trophy ? Did they have cameras way back then ? ;)

Lindsay

Non other than the great Keith Wright with the League Cup way back in 1991, do you want a copy?

I was out in blizzard conditions today, surprisingly no Crossbill,s or tree's on view today, forecast for 15-20 inches of snow here tonight/tommorow so no Crossbill's for a while either

cheers

[Ross Ahmed]

You need to use Sony's Sonic Stage software to transfer the recordings into wav files on your computer. See post #98 for details.

Once the recordings are in wav format on your computer you need to use software such as Raven Lite or Syrinx to produce the sonograms.

Cheers for that.

How do you get the actual mini-disc into the computer?

[Andrew Whitehouse]

Cheers for that.

How do you get the actual mini-disc into the computer?

I think most have a USB connection.

[Capercaillie71]

I think most have a USB connection.

Yep. Use a USB cable with a mini-plug at one end to connect the minidisc player to the PC.

[Ross Ahmed]

Yep. Use a USB cable with a mini-plug at one end to connect the minidisc player to the PC.

Nice one cheers!

[griffin]

Non other than the great Keith Wright with the League Cup way back in 1991, do you want a copy?



Being a blue-nosed hun I can probably live without it ! ;)


Lindsay

[Capercaillie71]

I was just out shutting the chickens away, when I heard a snipe 'chipper -chipper'ing from the marsh at the bottom of the field. I nipped back inside to get my recording gear, but by the time I'd got it the snipe had started drumming. I wandered down the field and even though the snipe seemed to be flying in circles around me, I couldn't see it in the dusk light, and found it very difficult to pinpoint. Even though it sounded quite loud at times, I didn't managed to get any particuarly good recordings, which suggests that I wasn't pointing the microphone in the right direction. Interesting sonogram though.

I'm also fairly sure that I heard a distant redshank, which is a nice record. I think I picked it up 1.5 seconds into the second recording.

[Ross Ahmed]

Anyone know if the Sennheiser MKE 300 can plug into, and records sound onto, a smartphone?

I've have a phone which has a 3.5mm jack port. It can store/play MP3 files, not sure about other files.

[Ross Ahmed]

Hi Sandy,

I would stay away from voice recorders - will probably not be much better than what you currently use.

A more efficient system would be a Sony NET MD recorder with a Sennheiser MKE300 mic - total cost under £200.


Lindsay

I've just done a search on ebay, and there seems to be many different types of Sony NET MD recorders/ Do you happen to know which would be more suitable for bird recording?

Many thanks

[ermine]

make sure the recorder has a mic input - some didn't. You can find details of most MD recorders on

http://www.minidisc.org/equipment_browser.html

HiMD is slightly prefered if you want to transfer the recording digitally into your computer - with a NetMD you will be recording the output of the MD recorder with your PC sound card in real time. Which still yields decent results if done with care, but takes longer