Disease Alert in UK - Stop feeding now!! [Archive]

deborah4

Saturday 2nd September 2006, 21:29

Yes, deadly serious.

Any chance of you getting this thread moved to the News, Views & Reporting forum so more people can see it and keep in touch with whats going on. More information is obviously needed, and a lot of people might be concerned about following the advice until they're better informed as to what is going on. I have a young family of greenfinches which I'm concerned will be especially hard hit if I remove all the water and feeders suddenly from the garden. If we need to act on this then we must, but at least it will be an informed decision.

(btw: are your sources DEFRA by any chance)

joannec

Saturday 2nd September 2006, 21:34

More information is obviously needed, and a lot of people might be concerned about following the advice until they're better informed as to what is going on.

(btw: are your sources DEFRA by any chance)

Absolutely, rumours, right or wrong will spread and we want to do the right thing without being alarmist. So at the risk of being politically incorrect can someone tell what these "deadly risks" are.

Cuckoo-shrike

Saturday 2nd September 2006, 23:33

I don't know if the thread needs moving Deborah: it's had 170 views already.
Joanne, I've already pointed out the risks. It's the source of the information that I'm not at liberty to divulge.
All I know is that it's a strain of disease that was first identified last year, it's extremely virulent and it has already killed many thousands of Chaffinches, Greenfinches and even Siskins in the UK.
If you must continue feeding then you must be absolutely scrupulous about hygiene. But this is hardly a time of year when there are natural food shortages.

baillieswells

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 00:35

I have it on good authority that an epidemic is spreading rapidly through finches in the UK, resulting in tens of thousands of deaths. Garden feeding stations are heavily implicated in the transmission of the disease and people should stop feeding immediately and thoroughly disinfect or remove all feeders, drinking and bathing bowls.

Sadly, politics prevent me naming the source of this information.

Are we talking about Trichomonas, which during the hot summer weather in the UK, appears to have spread from Pigeons and Doves, where it is known as canker, to finches?

David FG

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 08:24

I am puzzled as to why it is all so 'hush hush'.

Why can't the source be named?: it's unlikely to be MI5 (or at least, I would imagine not.)

alcedo.atthis

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 10:28

"I have it on "good authority"?? that an epidemic is spreading rapidly through finches in the UK, resulting in tens of thousands of deaths. Garden feeding stations are heavily implicated in the transmission of the disease and people should stop feeding immediately and thoroughly disinfect or remove all feeders, drinking and bathing bowls.

Sadly, politics prevent me naming the source of this information."

What and where is the source of this?? It's certainly not DEFRA, although they are concerned that there name has been used in connection with this post, and NOT denied as the source.
Someone reading old literature perhaps, and overreacting.
If you wish something to read, here you have it from DEFRA

http://www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/vla/science/documents/science-end-oie05.pdf
and especially
http://www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/vla/science/documents/science-end-survrep-qtlyw0106.pdf

I love hype!!

Regards

Malky

Cuckoo-shrike

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 10:44

Are we talking about Trichomonas, which during the hot summer weather in the UK, appears to have spread from Pigeons and Doves, where it is known as canker, to finches?
I'm sorry, but I don't have any further details on which disease is involved.

Cuckoo-shrike

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 10:52

What and where is the source of this?? It's certainly not DEFRA, although they are concerned that there name has been used in connection with this post, and NOT denied as the source.
Someone reading old literature perhaps, and overreacting.
If you wish something to read, here you have it from DEFRA

http://www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/vla/science/documents/science-end-oie05.pdf
and especially
http://www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/vla/science/documents/science-end-survrep-qtlyw0106.pdf

I love hype!!

Regards

Malky
The source is not DEFRA. It is not from old literature and is no over-reaction. The publications you quote relate to reports up to May this year. The crisis is current and ongoing.
I really am sorry about the cloak and dagger stuff but, as I said, there are politics involved. The whole thing stinks quite frankly.

baillieswells

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 11:17

I'm sorry, but I don't have any further details on which disease is involved.

All this 'cloak and dagger' stuff is absurd, either the facts should be produced, or people should keep their mouths shut.

Collster

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 11:31

i know earlier this year members of a local birdclub were reporting sick or dead greenfinch in and around gardens

Collster

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 11:32

All this 'cloak and dagger' stuff is absurd, either the facts should be produced, or people should keep their mouths shut.
Steady on there, no need to shoot the messenger !

Cuckoo-shrike

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 11:33

All this 'cloak and dagger' stuff is absurd, either the facts should be produced, or people should keep their mouths shut.
Shame you won't trust me on this.
I won't post any more on this thread, but I hope that by raising awareness, a few birds may have been saved.
All may be revealed in due course.

alcedo.atthis

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 11:44

"Shame you won't trust me on this.
I won't post any more on this thread, but I hope that by raising awareness, a few birds may have been saved.
All may be revealed in due course."

Well, here's up to 21st August, next report 11th September, 8 days away, wow!! I cannot wait.

http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/diseases/notifiable/disease/ai/wildbirds/survey-results.htm

When is the next episode of Harry Potter due??

Regards

Malky

Penny Clarke

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 11:47

Shame you won't trust me on this.
I won't post any more on this thread, but I hope that by raising awareness, a few birds may have been saved.
All may be revealed in due course.

Hi Andy

Thank you for your information Andy. I don't think people want to stop feeding their beloved birds unless absolutely, officially told not to!!! I am sure ALL people reading this will be 'scrupulously' cleaning their feeders and ponds, as you should do anyway, rather than removing everything. Thank you for informing us, meanwhile we will wait to hear officially.

Best Wishes Penny

P.S. I always scrub out my ponds quite simply with a wire brush and clean water. But my feeders I immerse and clean with hot water and washing up liquid in a bucket, any better suggestions? Should I be using a disinfectant of some kind eg bleach? I have never used anything more than washing up liquid as I don't like using chemicals uneccessarily. Any correct cleaning suggestions I am sure will be helpful to many people.

Cuckoo-shrike

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 11:56

Cuckoo-shrike

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 11:57

Hi Andy

Should I be using a disinfectant of some kind eg bleach? I have never used anything more than washing up liquid as I don't like using chemicals uneccessarily. Any correct cleaning suggestions I am sure will be helpful to many people.
I've seen Jeyes fluid recommended Penny.

Penny Clarke

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 12:02

I've seen Jeyes fluid recommended Penny.
Thank you very much for that.
Best Wishes Penny :t: :t:

David FG

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 12:21

The politics of wild bird feeding?

Oh come on! I refuse to believe that even the most ardent conspiracy theorist could think that issues of national security are involved or that governments could topple on this one.

jdj

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 13:11

Could this disease with the name that must not be spoken be spread by trolls?

CBB

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 13:16

Hi all,
I've read through the whole thread and I'm really confused. As I speak I've got about 20 greenfinches on a heart feeder. They appear fine. Do I not put anymore food out? This sounds serious but I'm being asked to put my faith in someone who I don't know, about an issue that has no publicity except a post on BFW. What has everyone else decided to do?

solwaybirder

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 13:56

Capercaillie71

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 14:07

The only reason I can see why anyone would want to keep this hush hush would be if a strain of bird flu was involved.

Mary

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 14:14

I would greatly appreciate comment from any RSPB or BTO officials regarding this issue. I have had 3 dead birds (finches) in the past 2 weeks and still some dodgy ones in the garden - that's more than in the past 5 years. I clean all feeders and water bowls every week (ARK disinfectant), move the feeders and sprinkle Garden Cleanse every week. A leaflet about hygiene from BTO/CJs states that if my hygiene is good, then I should continue to feed. However, if there is a virulent disease in the local population maybe I should stop, but for how long? Please can we have some definate information.

David FG

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 14:28

The only reason I can see why anyone would want to keep this hush hush would be if a strain of bird flu was involved.

Wouldn't the advice, in that event, be to keep well away from bird feeders, not go out and start fiddling with them?

And surely the concern (if it were bird flu) would be for humans, not finches (and would bird flu confine itself to finches? I rather doubt it.)

Marty G

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 14:43

What has everyone else decided to do?

I will await word from a reputable agency/organisation such at DEFRA or the RSPB/BTO. It is a serious matter telling the British public not to feed the birds, the resulting casualties in cold weather would be large. The RSPB tend to keep quiet for this reason unless it is a huge threat - they would rather people feed the birds and accept some casualties.

I well remember the aflatoxin- carcinogenic peanut scare - the RSPB knew the risks of the peanuts but still told people to feed the birds as the death rate would still be quite low compared to no feed going out.

I fancy the politics mentioned, may have something to do with perceived vested interests. Everyone loves a conspiracy story - pity so few have any basis.

Mary Evelyn

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 15:01

I have read the post and taken on board what has been said.

I have always been avid about cleaning the feeders and tables etc. and will continue to be so.I have a lot of chaffs and greens at the moment, all healthy and can only do my best to keep them that way.

It should act as a reminder though, as to why we need to be hygienic.

I won't stop feeding but i will continue to clean as i have done for many years and would hope that, if this is true it is made public very soon,as not doing so, is actually detrimental to our birds.

Andrew Rowlands

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 15:08

Hi all,
I've read through the whole thread and I'm really confused. As I speak I've got about 20 greenfinches on a heart feeder. They appear fine. Do I not put anymore food out?
If you continue to put food out Chris, ensure your cleaning/disinfecting regime is is of the highest standard, that's the least you can do.

My impression is that I have seen many more reports of sick and dying finches at feeding stations this year.

Could it be that bird food production techniques are creating foods that are lacking somewhere in their vital content or have higher levels of toxins than previousy believed - GM-related, maybe? These little guys, at certain times of the year, will take a huge proportion of their energy requirement from garden supplies, they metabolise it very quickly and also lay it down as fat. If they have to burn the all fat reserves, eg. they are ill or the weather is hard, and their reserves are mildly toxic - it will may enough to finish them off.

Andy's earlier comment about there not being a natural shortage of food at this time of year has to be balanced by the fact that huge amounts of available foods in the hedgerows are now being destroyed by over-zealous hedge-cutting - huge swathes of our countryside will be depleted of much of the fruits and seeds that could be giving our birds a lifeline through the winter.

Have all garden bird specimens submitted to the labs been subjected to more than just the 'f l u' tests, I wonder? Are the labs now going through a backlog of data, looking at other results?

Andrew Rowlands

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 15:15

I have had 3 dead birds (finches) in the past 2 weeks and still some dodgy ones in the garden - that's more than in the past 5 years.
Sorry, Mary - I'd missed your Post earlier.

I think in your case, you should stop feeding right now.

It wiil be hard for the little guys but if this is some kind of outbreak, it's probably best to try to let it die out rather than prolonging their suffering and lengthening the time that the disease is active in your area.

I just hope that more info is forthcoming during the next week or so.

colonelboris

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 15:21

Interesting point, this. However, would we be doing fairly common birds a disservice by allowing genes to spread which mean that a larger part of the population than normal are not resistant to natural ailments?
If a virus takes out, say, 15% of a population every few years as they don't have resistance, then by over-protecting the birds, that non-resistant part of the population would surely increase, possibly leading to a much larger loss of life at a later point.
Personally, I'd do for the birds what I can, but I can't help wondering if we're eventually going to make the problem worse someday.

Lancz springer

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 15:23

Is it bird flu?

CBB

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 15:27

Cheers for the advice AR. Would be interesting to know if there are similar problems reported in other parts of Europe.

Andrew Rowlands

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 15:31

Is it bird flu?
Almost certainly not, Lancz!

Welcome to BF :t:

Cheers,

Andy.

Marty G

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 15:33

Is it bird flu?

No - it is not anything at present. That is the problem with stories like this - hysteria is but a short step away.

Jos Stratford

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 17:58

Unnamed disease, unnamed source, virtually no information divulged other than 'thousands of finches' said to be dying - sorry to sound sceptical, but this sounds another story like the world is about to keel over to SARS, then Bird Flu, etc.

I hope this really does not turn into a major issue, but I do think if this is to be taken seriously at present, some details really need to be disclosed. In the meantime, it would do no harm for everyone to give all the feeders a good disinfecting as a point of standard procedure, but as for stopping feeding, hmm, well I would like to see a reason.

SiG

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 18:32

I've seen Jeyes fluid recommended Penny.

And yet "you should no longer use them* on plants after 31 December 2003."

*Jeyes Fluid and Armillatox

according to the Pesticides Safety Directorate.

alcedo.atthis

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 21:03

For the newer members who do not know what to believe, I refer you to the following,

http://www.ufaw.org.uk/documents/Trichomonasadvicesheet_Aug06.pdf

since it was mentioned in an earlier response,

http://www.ufaw.org.uk/pdf/gbhi-press-release.pdf
http://www.ufaw.org.uk/gbhi.php

just for some info,

http://www.bvpa.org.uk/papers/penn01wb.htm

I really need to put up a newer version of Tom's paper.

Regards

Malky

AndyC

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 21:28

Hmmm, I found a dead pigeon in my garden only yesterday. It didn't appear to have been killed by a cat, so perhaps it was infected. How should I dispose of the body?

Cuckoo-shrike

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 22:20

For the newer members who do not what to believe, I refer you to the following,

[url="http://www.ufaw.org.uk/documents/Trichomonasadvicesheet_Aug06.pdf[/url]

Malky

The Aug 06 document quoted above contains the following statement:

"An increase in the number of reported disease outbreaks in finches thought to be caused by trichomonas has occurred during and following the recent spell of hot weather in July 2006."

So, Malky, please tell me how you square this with your earlier comments on this thread as follows:

"Someone reading old literature perhaps, and overreacting.
I love hype!!
When is the next episode of Harry Potter due??"

June Atkinson

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 22:37

Hi! all, I am new to this group and have fed birds for many years and always clean and scrub the feeders and bird baths on a regular rota I use a mild disinfectant ie Dettol and have never found any dead or dying birds around my home also I never put out substandard bird food I get mine from a reliable source.
Ian

I use Citrox, a "safe and effective greenhouse disinfectant, suitable for Bird Tables, children, pets and pond life".
Agralan Garden Products, Swindon, Wiltshire.

Let's take this a step at a time, but hygiene is important I agree, and we should be concerned with this whether or not there is any specific cause for alarm, as suggested in Aquila's message..

jpoyner

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 22:40

It would be good to know a bit more about all this. I stopped feeding peanuts in spring this year after a very alarming incident. I actually witnessed a healthy adult male Siskin feeding on the nuts, then literally fall to the ground and within half an hour the bird had died. Then I found several other dead birds nearby.
I estimated that the flock which had arrived around the garden contained about 20-30 birds, and although I really hope not, judging by the toxicity I could well believe they all perished! This was almost certainly caused by a few peanuts which I found had gone mouldy due to rainwater seeping in to the feeder. This can easily happen within a few days if conditions are right, and who cleans their feeders daily??
I think a lot more research needs to be done regarding the feeding of peanuts. I don't know enough about the biology to speculate, but do wonder if the excessive feeding of this "artificial" food may even be resulting in the development of an allergic reaction similar to the increase seen in humans?

If any biologists out there would care to comment I would be most interested, but deaths at feeders does certainly seem to increasing rather alarmingly and needs to be studied further.

JP

Mickymouse

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 23:05

I hope we are not talking this one up ourselves, I suspect we all find the odd dead bird in our gardens and think "shame" and think no more of it but now we have the idea of disease in our minds and start to worry, look how quick Avian Flue got mentioned.
Having said that, next week my feeding station is going to have the most thorough cleaning it has ever had, just in case.

Mick

Mary Evelyn

Sunday 3rd September 2006, 23:06

[QUOTE=jpoyner]It would be good to know a bit more about all this. I stopped feeding peanuts in spring this year as I found several newly arrived Siskins freshly dead around the feeder. Another bird I found dying beneath the feeder shortly after having fed. This was almost certainly caused by a few peanuts which I found had gone mouldy due to rainwater seeping in to the feeder. This can easily happen within a few days if conditions are right, and who cleans their feeders daily??
I think a lot more research needs to be done regarding the feeding of peanuts. I don't know enough about the biology to speculate, but do wonder if the excessive feeding of this "artificial" food may even be resulting in the development of an allergic reaction similar to the increase seen in humans?

If any biologists out there would care to comment I would be most interested, but deaths at feeders does certainly seem to increasing rather alarmingly and needs to be studied further.

In over 20 years i have only witnessed 2 deaths in my garden,both Collared Doves,and there was at least 10 years in between.Thousands of birds have fed here and peanuts have always been a part of my menu although i tend to provide them chopped.

I do believe in hygiene for the birds,myself and family too.However,the birds do need help, as much of their habitat is being destroyed, even here, in a semi rural area.

In 14 years of working within the pet supply market, i haven't heard of any unusual deaths and conversations are more geared to cats and hawks etc.

Still i shall be listenening out for anything that alters my opinion.

MPTOMS

Monday 4th September 2006, 13:44

Since summer 2005, a disease caused by a Trichomonas parasite has been seen in finch species. As far as I am aware, this is the first time that this has occurred. Whilst greenfinches and chaffinches are the species that have been most frequently affected, other finch species and house sparrows are susceptible to the disease. An increase in the number of reported disease outbreaks in finches thought to be caused by trichomonas has occurred during and following the recent spell of hot weather in July 2006. Formerly, this disease was known from doves, some raptors and gamebirds.

In addition to showing signs of general illness, for example lethargy and fluffed-up plumage, affected birds may drool saliva, regurgitate food, have difficulty in swallowing or show laboured breathing. Finches are frequently seen to have matted wet plumage around the face and beak. In some cases, swelling of the neck may be visible from a distance. The disease may progress over several days or even weeks, consequently affected birds are often emaciated.

Trichomonas is vulnerable to desiccation and cannot survive for long periods outside the host. Transmission of infection between birds is most likely to be by birds feeding one another with regurgitated food during the breeding season; through food or drinking water contaminated with recently regurgitated saliva, or possibly, from droppings of an infected bird.

Where a problem with trichomoniasis exists, general measures for control of disease in wild bird populations should be taken:

Ensure optimal hygiene at garden bird feeding stations, including disinfection

Consider leaving bird baths with standing water empty for a short period. Otherwise, be particularly vigilant to provide clean drinking water on a daily basis.

Feeding stations encourage birds to congregate, sometimes in large densities, thereby increasing the potential for disease to spread between individuals when outbreaks occur. Where large numbers of birds are sick or dying, consider significantly reducing or stopping feeding for a short period (around 2 weeks). The reason for this is to encourage birds to disperse, thereby minimising the chances of new birds becoming affected at the feeding station. Gradually reintroduce feeding, monitoring for further signs of ill health.

Good hygiene practice, specifically the regular cleaning of all feeders, bird baths and feeding surfaces, is an essential part of looking after garden birds.

delia todd

Monday 4th September 2006, 13:58

Hi MPTOMS I see this is your first post, and very informative it is too, so may I extend a warm welcome from all the staff and moderators at Bird Forum.

D

Andrew Rowlands

Monday 4th September 2006, 13:59

Welcome to Birdforum, MPTOMS.

Was this something you created or just taken from http://www.ufaw.org.uk/documents/Trichomonasadvicesheet_Aug06.pdf which has already been linked to in Post #40 by Malky and partly quoted from by Aquila later?

Credit where credit is due, eh?

Cheers,

Andy.

Andy Bright

Monday 4th September 2006, 14:08

Good hygiene practice, specifically the regular cleaning of all feeders, bird baths and feeding surfaces, is an essential part of looking after garden birds.
Thank you and welcome, presumably Mike Toms of the BTO. Very glad you could add to this thread and offer some info and advice to our members.

cheers,
Andy

MPTOMS

Monday 4th September 2006, 14:11

Andy Bright

Monday 4th September 2006, 14:14

As Andy Rowland notes, the information is taken from the information sheet that we have put together on Trichomoniasis as part of the Garden Bird Health initiative, with which I (as the BTO's GBW Organiser) am heavily involved.In fact the BTO info page is here (with additional PDF download)
http://www.bto.org/gbw/NEWS/disease_outbreak.htm

Andrew Rowlands

Monday 4th September 2006, 14:27

In fact the BTO info page is here (with additional PDF download)
http://www.bto.org/gbw/NEWS/disease_outbreak.htm
Thanks Andy - I see it's been updated today.

Another useful link is the one about good cleaning practices - http://www.bto.org/gbw/hygiene/good_practice/keeping_things_clean.htm

Cuckoo-shrike

Monday 4th September 2006, 14:33

I see it's been updated today.

Good!
Can we now see some publicity from the RSPB?
As a member of both BTO and RSPB, I expect these organisations to be keeping us informed about what I understand has become a very serious situation during August.

Pam_m

Monday 4th September 2006, 14:38

Andrew Rowlands

Monday 4th September 2006, 15:16

As Andy (Aquila) has just mentioned them, a couple of links from the RSPB site pertaining to:-
Sick birds http://www.rspb.org.uk/advice/health/careofsickbirds/index.asp
Hygiene - vital precautions http://www.rspb.org.uk/advice/feeding/hygiene.asp

I have a feeling there are more but the site (as I've commented in other threads) can be difficult to navigate.

birdforum

Monday 4th September 2006, 16:17

Birdforum has now been fully briefed on this disease by various organisations.

Firstly, from what we have been told, this is a potentially serious matter and trichomoniasis poses a significant threat to certain bird species.

But secondly, it is clear from advice given today, that part of the title of this thread is unwarranted. Continue feeding but only after you have thoroughly cleaned your birdfeeders/tables /feeding areas and any water supply you have for the birds. With a hygenic feeding station, you can continue to feed the birds.

Thank you,
Birdforum

Grampy Bustard

Monday 4th September 2006, 16:18

Good!
Can we now see some publicity from the RSPB?
As a member of both BTO and RSPB, I expect these organisations to be keeping us informed about what I understand has become a very serious situation during August.
As has already been said, perhaps vested interests at work here? How much cash is generated from food sales? I would not wish to deprive any conservation body of any revenue, but I think honesty can be rewarded in different ways.

I must admit to only ever feeding in the coldest of winter days, as the chances of the bird getting a disease are probably far outweighed by the chance of starving to death in cold weather.

Andrew Rowlands

Monday 4th September 2006, 16:24

... from what we have been told, this is a potentially serious matter and trichomoniasis poses a significant threat to certain bird species.

But secondly, it is clear from advice given today, that part of the title of this thread is unwarranted. Continue feeding but only after you have thoroughly cleaned your birdfeeders/tables /feeding areas and any water supply you have for the birds. With a hygenic feeding station, you can continue to feed the birds.

But - "Where large numbers of birds are sick or dying, consider significantly reducing or stopping feeding for a short period (around 2 weeks)" (not that far removed from a reply I made to Mary yesterday), "Stop feeding now" is surely the best advice on the matter?

Steve

Monday 4th September 2006, 16:49

"Stop feeding now" is surely the best advice on the matter?

I think you will find this is being a bit dramatic,by all means stop and clean if your worried about the birds in your area but stopping altogether is not the way forward. For a start if you stop feeding the birds in your garden they will only go elsewhere. The figures incidently are NOT tens of thousands, it was a rise on last year which has tuned into a few more this year, this is by no means an epidemic JUST BE AWARE.

Andrew Rowlands

Monday 4th September 2006, 16:53

If the title means that more BF members actually read the advice that's been given here, I don't see there being a problem with the title.

Andrew Rowlands

Monday 4th September 2006, 16:54

Have the courtesy to quote in context, please Steve,

Steve

Monday 4th September 2006, 16:58

Andrew you have contradicted yourself, read your post:

But - "Where large numbers of birds are sick or dying, consider significantly reducing or stopping feeding for a short period (around 2 weeks)" (not that far removed from a reply I made to Mary yesterday), "Stop feeding now" is surely the best advice on the matter?

If the title means that more BF members actually read the advice that's been given here, I don't see there being a problem with the title.

Scaremongering?

Andrew Rowlands

Monday 4th September 2006, 17:02

Andrew you have contradicted yourself, read your post:

But - "Where large numbers of birds are sick or dying, consider significantly reducing or stopping feeding for a short period (around 2 weeks)" (not that far removed from a reply I made to Mary yesterday), "Stop feeding now" is surely the best advice on the matter?

Scaremongering?
Not scaremongering at all Steve - read it carefully.

I've put my bold back in to emphasise it again.

Andrew Rowlands

Monday 4th September 2006, 17:10

If the title means that more BF members actually read the advice that's been given here, I don't see there being a problem with the title.
That was a reply made in answer to a post made by Andy Bright that suddenly disappeared - loses its' context when that happens.

Steve

Monday 4th September 2006, 17:13

If the title means that more BF members actually read the advice that's been given here, I don't see there being a problem with the title.

As I said scaremongering.

Cuckoo-shrike

Monday 4th September 2006, 17:21

The figures incidently are NOT tens of thousands, it was a rise on last year which has tuned into a few more this year, this is by no means an epidemic JUST BE AWARE.

I think it's probably fair to say that most of the BF members viewing this thread were unaware that there is currently a serious disease problem (and I would be willing to bet that total deaths will be in the tens of thousands - but we'll never know of course). Some of those members will now have been out and given their feeders and other paraphernalia a good clean and maybe prevented some bird deaths in the process.

This now leads me to wonder how many thousands (or tens or hundreds of thousands??) of RSPB members and the public at large are similarly unaware and are stuffing mucky feeders with seed and nuts whilst being completely oblivious to the corpses lying under the bushes? That's why I would like to see a publicity drive right now.

How about it RSPB?

Cuckoo-shrike

Monday 4th September 2006, 17:24

As I said scaremongering.
Well at least it's raised awareness. What's your problem with that?

My agenda here has simply been to try and stop some birds from dying needlessly. Perhaps those whose only contribution to this thread has been to make sarky comments could explain what their agenda is...

Steve

Monday 4th September 2006, 17:44

My problem with that is, IMHO that it is over the top and totally unecessary, it is sensationalism the sort of nonsense that appears on the front pages of the tacky red tops. This is only my opinion you are entitled to yours. I just dont think grabbing the attention with a misleading headline is very clever?

Cuckoo-shrike

Monday 4th September 2006, 17:52

I just dont think grabbing the attention with a misleading headline is very clever?
As I said Steve, it has brought a very serious issue to the fore. And that's a damn sight more clever than pouring scorn on the whole thing and trying to make me look an idiot!

Steve

Monday 4th September 2006, 17:59

Andy I am not pouring scorn on it at all, I think you did a good job bringing it to the attention of the forum, what I am saying is that stating in your header that we should
"Stop feeding now!! " is misleading that is all? trust me I am not trying to make you look an idiot.

Steve

Monday 4th September 2006, 18:00

dave123

Monday 4th September 2006, 18:01

As I said Steve, it has brought a very serious issue to the fore. And that's a damn sight more clever than pouring scorn on the whole thing and trying to make me look an idiot!
if its that serious why haven't rspb or defra made any public annoucements?

Cuckoo-shrike

Monday 4th September 2006, 18:02

Cuckoo-shrike

Monday 4th September 2006, 18:02

if its that serious why haven't rspb or defra made any public annoucements?
Quite.

Jane Turner

Monday 4th September 2006, 18:04

The question that I do not have an answer to is, which would have more impact on bird populations, the disease or the sudden stopping of garden feeding?

Perhaps the title should be edited to Stop feeding birds now unless you are capable of maintaining proper hygiene!

Collster

Monday 4th September 2006, 18:33

All people need is some guidance and a honest appraisal of the likely situation by the relevant people

martinf

Monday 4th September 2006, 19:04

Cuckoo-shrike

Monday 4th September 2006, 19:19

Over he past few weeks the RSPB has received many calls regarding the trich outbreaks in finches. The advice that MPTOMS stated in his previous post gives the essential information for dealing with this and that is what (as part of the Garden Bird Health Initiative) we have been giving out to concerned members
But members will only be concerned members if they know there's a problem! If they're calling because they're getting dying birds, then it's too late. That's why I think RSPB should put out a press release. Why aren't they prepared to do that?

The Raptor

Monday 4th September 2006, 19:22

If this disease is true, how are all the people who use feeders & are not members of the RSPB or BirdForum going to know about it, I would have thought they by far outweigh those that are.

Mary Evelyn

Monday 4th September 2006, 19:40

I am also a member of BGB and found the information below, very interesting and informative.Let's not panic but ensure we are hygienic.

David Gains BGB.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've had the following reply to my enquiries from Mike Toms, BTO:

Since summer 2005, a disease caused by a Trichomonas parasite has been seen in finch species. As far as I am aware, this is the first time that this has occurred. Whilst greenfinches and chaffinches are the species that have been most frequently affected, other finch species and house sparrows are susceptible to the disease. An increase in the number of reported disease outbreaks in finches thought to be caused by trichomonas has occurred during and following the recent spell of hot weather in July 2006. Formerly, this disease was known from doves, some raptors and gamebirds.

In addition to showing signs of general illness, for example lethargy and fluffed-up plumage, affected birds may drool saliva, regurgitate food, have difficulty in swallowing or show laboured breathing. Finches are frequently seen to have matted wet plumage around the face and beak. In some cases, swelling of the neck may be visible from a distance. The disease may progress over several days or even weeks, consequently affected birds are
often emaciated.

Trichomonas is vulnerable to desiccation and cannot survive for long periods outside the host. Transmission of infection between birds is most likely to be by birds feeding one another with regurgitated food during the breeding season; through food or drinking water contaminated with recently regurgitated saliva, or possibly, from droppings of an infected bird.

Where a problem with trichomoniasis exists, general measures for control of disease in wild bird populations should be taken:

Ensure optimal hygiene at garden bird feeding stations, including disinfection

Consider leaving bird baths with standing water empty for a short period.

Otherwise, be particularly vigilant to provide clean drinking water on a daily basis.

Feeding stations encourage birds to congregate, sometimes in large densities, thereby increasing the potential for disease to spread between individuals when outbreaks occur. Where large numbers of birds are sick or dying, consider significantly reducing or stopping feeding for a short
period (around 2 weeks). The reason for this is to encourage birds to disperse, thereby minimising the chances of new birds becoming affected at the feeding station. Gradually reintroduce feeding, monitoring for further
signs of ill health.

Good hygiene practice, specifically the regular cleaning of all feeders, bird baths and feeding surfaces, is an essential part of looking after garden birds.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stewart J.

Monday 4th September 2006, 19:43

Thanks Mary

Stewart

martinf

Monday 4th September 2006, 19:46

Andy Bright

Monday 4th September 2006, 19:46

Yep, Mike (Toms) posted this a bit further up the thread earlier in the day.

cheers,
Andy

I am also a member of BGB and found the information below, very interesting and informative.Let's not panic but ensure we are hygienic.

David Gains BGB.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've had the following reply to my enquiries from Mike Toms, BTO:

deborah4

Monday 4th September 2006, 19:55

There seems to be a lot of unnessary duplication on this thread! The original request for information and guidance has been answered by the relevant authorities, and would seem so far to be summed up as follows:

1. There is evidence of increased outbreak of disease caused by the Trichomonas parasite - finches are primarily effected

2. If you notice, dead or dying birds around your feeders, STOP feeding, for several weeks, removing all feeders and water receptacles. REPORT it to the appropriate authorities,

3. If there is NO evidence of the disease affecting birds using your own feeding station, CARRY ON feeding as normal, BUT maintain extra vigilance with feeder hygiene.

Scaremongering, unnecessary panic, and over-reaction by suddenly removing feeders from un-infected areas could have an adverse effect on vulnerable birds or drive them into infected areas in search of food. INFORM other people who feed birds in their garden of the risks.

Mary Evelyn

Monday 4th September 2006, 19:56

Sorry, didn't realise it had already been posted by Mike but sound advice.

deborah4

Monday 4th September 2006, 20:03

Ps That wasn't specifically directed at you, Mary - we cross-posted! ;)

Cuckoo-shrike

Monday 4th September 2006, 20:05

Thanks for that Mary, Mike's advice is sound and is exactly what people should follow. As far as Press releases go the BTO has done several bird health ones over the last year or so. They also have a leaflet available to anyone (not just members) with all sorts of advice on health and hygiene
I'm sorry Martin but if that's the RSPB's stance then it's just not good enough. It's no use the BTO having a leaflet "available". People need educating in a proactive way about the current situation, which I have no doubt at all is serious, and the major bird conservation organisation in the country should be at the forefront. Far from the "few more" dying birds than last year which Steve mentions above, I have every reason to believe that it is many, many more.

Accuse me of scaremongering if you like, but I think that's preferable to being complacent. Please address the points I made earlier, i.e.:

"But members will only be concerned members if they know there's a problem! If they're calling because they're getting dying birds, then it's too late. That's why I think RSPB should put out a press release. Why aren't they prepared to do that?"

Mary Evelyn

Monday 4th September 2006, 20:20

Accuse me of scaremongering if you like, but I think that's preferable to being complacent.

I would say that i am not complacent.I ensure my feeding stations are cleaned thoroughly every week and will, as in the past continue to do so.

I think this is the message that should be put to other BF members.

Cuckoo-shrike

Monday 4th September 2006, 20:24

I would say that i am not complacent.I ensure my feeding stations are cleaned thoroughly every week and will, as in the past continue to do so.

I think this is the message that should be put to other BF members.
Mary, I fear it's the RSPB that's being complacent.

Stand on Zanzibar

Monday 4th September 2006, 20:42

Hi all,
Do I not put anymore food out? This sounds serious but I'm being asked to put my faith in someone who I don't know, about an issue that has no publicity except a post on BFW. What has everyone else decided to do?

I'm not sure that it matters whether the limited number of people reading this thread stop feeding their birds or not. Surely the 'disease' will still be assisted in its spread by the other 5 million or so people who don't view Birdforum and so will continue to feed 'their' birds in blissful ignorance of the info contained in the original post.

Tim

alcedo.atthis

Monday 4th September 2006, 20:45

"That's why I think RSPB should put out a press release. Why aren't they prepared to do that?"

Not wishing to answer for the RSPB, they are quite capable of doing that themselves, but perhaps they see the whole picture of this emerging disease.

Perhaps they have looked at the timescale of what is going on, how this variant of the disease spreads, the localities and numbers involve, the prevailing weather and available natural resources compared to man supplied resources.

So far, NO Notifiable Diseases have been registered in 2006 to the public. This does not mean to say that circumstances may change that status, but as yet, the word is NO.

Considering the levels of death at feeder stations from variants of Salmonella and E-Coli, Trichomonas gallinae is in the early stages of possible mutation. Lets just see what happens next! Take precautions by all means. Some of us have been harping on about hygiene for years, but lets not panic just yet.

Regards

Malky

deborah4

Monday 4th September 2006, 21:08

Surely the 'disease' will still be assisted in its spread by the other 5 million or so people who don't view Birdforum and so will continue to feed 'their' birds in blissful ignorance of the info contained in the original post.

1. There was no 'info' contained in the original post that was adequate to assume the advice that was given alongside it. Again, at the risk of repeating:

Mike Toms of BTO, Martin from the RSPB (Garden Bird Health Initiative), Steve and Andy and a BIRDFORUM policy position, have all provided necessary guidance on this Thread for Birdforum Members in response to Aquila's very welcome effort to bring this to Members attention.

I'm not sure that it matters whether the limited number of people reading this thread stop feeding their birds or not

2. On the contrary, it does matter!

There is a real danger here, that the above advice and quidance, will be lost if this develops into a protracted debate about how effectively the RSPB are handling the outbreak, or, indeed whether there is some kind of conspiracy going on with food suppliers! Perhaps further discussion could continue on a separate thread.

ADMIN : In the light of any further information being provided, to justify a blanket cessation on feeding garden birds, IMHO this thread should now be closed and made a STICKY and members follow the advice that's been provided until further information comes to the fore to suggest otherwise.

Thank you

Cuckoo-shrike

Monday 4th September 2006, 21:46

Well Deborah, I do not want the thread closed yet because an apparent RSPB spokes-person has entered the discussion, I have asked him a reasonable question and not yet received a reply.

Stand on Zanzibar

Monday 4th September 2006, 21:52

1. There was no 'info' contained in the original post that was adequate to assume the advice that was given alongside it.....

2. On the contrary, it does matter! (If a few informed people don't feed their birds)

:eek!: Helps if one reads the whole thread!

Still not sure about (2) though.

OK, alright, I'll admit that I bought a huge shed load of bird food just yesterday. Can I feed a fat ball to our hamster?

Tim

Jos Stratford

Monday 4th September 2006, 21:55

Far from the "few more" dying birds than last year, I have every reason to believe that it is many, many more.

So, a reasonable question for you too ...where are you getting your information from? Where is this 'every reason to believe' coming from?

Mary

Monday 4th September 2006, 21:56

Would it not be possible for all the firms who sell bird foods, whether by mail order, in supermarkets or pet shops, to put clear information on the packaging about hygiene? That way maybe more people will get the message. After all, I'm sure no one wants to spend a fortune only to see the birds die. A lot of folk still don't realise the importance of cleanliness. Maybe a press campaign as well.

Cuckoo-shrike

Monday 4th September 2006, 22:05

So, a reasonable question for you too ...where are you getting your information from? Where is this 'every reason to believe' coming from?
Jos, I've already explained. Apart from my source, just chatting to a few people on the phone tonight I've had enough hearsay reports to indicate a recent escalation in the number of bird deaths. .

deborah4

Monday 4th September 2006, 22:13

:eek!: Helps if one reads the whole thread!

Tim

And would help if you re-read your post to which I was responding

ie: this: with bold for your benefit

Surely the 'disease' will still be assisted in its spread by the other 5 million or so people who don't view Birdforum and so will continue to feed 'their' birds in blissful ignorance of the info contained in the original post.

Information from several respected quarters subsequently followed (re-read my first post if it helps to understand where I'm coming from)

Aquila - There well may be information, that you have, which justifies your advice, but you can not possibly expect people to take that on faith, considering the possible detriment to vulnerable birds if they do or the possible consequences of dispersing feeding into infected areas. If you have such information that is of a nature to require an immediate cessation of all feeding and can reveal your sources, then please post it and SOD the consequences - not to do so, is nothing less than irresponsible, to ask people to stop feeding their garden birds, with nothing further than you have provided is equally irresponsible. I don't envy your position one iota and truly sorry you are in this position, but am as equally concerned with the welfare of the birds as you are, and hope for a speedy outcome either way. Until that happens, surely following standard procedure is the safest route? :t:

Jos Stratford

Monday 4th September 2006, 22:23

Jos, I've already explained. Apart from my source, just chatting to a few people on the phone tonight I've had enough hearsay reports to indicate a recent escalation in the number of bird deaths. .

Your source? Sorry, must have missed that - was it quoted somewhere? Na can't see it. Heresay is nothing.

Andrew Rowlands

Monday 4th September 2006, 22:29

Over he past few weeks the RSPB has received many calls regarding the trich outbreaks in finches. The advice that MPTOMS stated in his previous post gives the essential information for dealing with this and that is what (as part of the Garden Bird Health Initiative) we have been giving out to concerned members
I'll highlight this for those of you who may not have noticed any significance in it.

It's from a BF member who's profile states "Am now working for RSPB on bird flu".

It seems it's not just a couple of 'scaremongers' here that think this disease is increasing; hopefully these calls were just due to the hot, dry weather that this infection is said to thrive in - as the weather get's cooler and wetter, the levels of infection should reduce.

Cuckoo-shrike

Monday 4th September 2006, 22:32

Aquila - There well may be information, that you have, which justifies your advice, but you can not possibly expect people to take that on faith, considering the possible detriment to vulnerable birds if they do or the possible consequences of dispersing feeding into infected areas. If you have such information that is of a nature to require an immediate cessation of all feeding and can reveal your sources, then please post it and SOD the consequences - not to do so, is nothing less than irresponsible, to ask people to stop feeding their garden birds, with nothing further than you have provided is equally irresponsible. I don't envy your position one iota and truly sorry you are in this position, but am as equally concerned with the welfare of the birds as you are, and hope for a speedy outcome either way. Until that happens, surely following standard procedure is the safest route? :t:
I've given you all the information I have, which is that there are many more birds dying than most people probably realise. I have that on good authority. Whether or not you choose to believe it, in the absence of any official confirmation, is up to you.

I accept that it may have been irresponsible of me to couch the thread title in such dramatic terms, although one person I have spoken to and whom I regard as an expert in the field is of the opinion that a temporary cessation of feeding might be the safest course of action.

From my subsequent posts however, I think I have made it clear that I am asking for a publicity campaign on hygiene, which will at least be an improvement on the lack of any initiative from the RSPB.

Jos Stratford

Monday 4th September 2006, 22:51

...there are many more birds dying than most people probably realise. I have that on good authority. Whether or not you choose to believe it, in the absence of any official confirmation, is up to you.

Go back one year and scan a few threads on here - had you believed the 'good authorities', then by rights 10-12 million of us hominids should have perished by now in the mutated bird flu virus ...in reality, how many? 200 worldwide? Many a few more. Na, dress up the real details in dramatic headlines and the result is one big YAWN amongst many. Same here.

Rather than hidden sources and hints of something more, better would have been to start a thread with something more factual, pointing out that there has been a rise in mortality recently and the increased need for vigilance and hygiene ...think most persons have the intelligence to do the rest.

deborah4

Monday 4th September 2006, 23:14

I've given you all the information I have, which is that there are many more birds dying than most people probably realise. I have that on good authority. Whether or not you choose to believe it, in the absence of any official confirmation, is up to you.

Ok: so say you there 'many more birds dying' - I'm not going to argue that one, Andy, and judging by the depleted number of garden birds this summer in my own garden (due of course to any number of variables), I'm not sure I'd want to. However, how one responds is the crucial issue - the 'bird flu' panic last Spring, caused knee-jerk reactions in some quarters that resulted in destruction of bird nests and withdrawal of feeding, to the detriment of birds. The RSPB's official opinion at the time was, DO NOT stop feeding but ensure good feeder hygiene. This surely should be the maintained position regardless of the numbers of reported/unreported casualties. Likewise for Trich.

one person I have spoken to and whom I regard as an expert in the field is of the opinion that a temporary cessation of feeding might be the safest course of action.

and maybe a very valid one, but still an opinion - more is needed.

From my subsequent posts however, I think I have made it clear that I am asking for a publicity campaign on hygiene, which will at least be an improvement on the lack of any initiative from the RSPB.

Agree wholeheartedly, with the proviso that it should be unrelated to any specific disease outbreak but rather many types of infection that can result with poor maintenance of feeder hygiene, and be conducted periodically as a matter of course

SiG

Monday 4th September 2006, 23:26

I think I'll take a shower.

Dartmoor Birders

Monday 4th September 2006, 23:37

I've given you all the information I have, which is that there are many more birds dying than most people probably realise. I have that on good authority. Whether or not you choose to believe it, in the absence of any official confirmation, is up to you.

I accept that it may have been irresponsible of me to couch the thread title in such dramatic terms, although one person I have spoken to and whom I regard as an expert in the field is of the opinion that a temporary cessation of feeding might be the safest course of action.

From my subsequent posts however, I think I have made it clear that I am asking for a publicity campaign on hygiene, which will at least be an improvement on the lack of any initiative from the RSPB.

Hi Andy, Just seen the thread and read it all and certainly we in Devon have 30-40 Greenfinches plus Chaffinch and Siskin feeding from our many feeders and in the last seven days have found 5 Greenfinch and a Siskin dead (not window casualties) The first two were reported in a neighbour's garden. We have increased our hygiene which is good anyway but we have four close neighbours who also feed and I know they just fill the feeders and it's rare for them to do much else. I will try and speak to them all tomorrow because they certainly would not be reading BF.
So I agree that awareness needs to be raised in the well meaning public at large.
J

Cuckoo-shrike

Monday 4th September 2006, 23:40

Na can't see it. Heresay is nothing.
Martin, who purports to be speaking on behalf of the RSPB, said earlier:

"Over the past few weeks the RSPB has received many calls regarding the trich outbreaks in finches."

Cuckoo-shrike

Monday 4th September 2006, 23:50

Thanks for an excellent post there Deborah.

What continues to bug me is that the RSPB have apparently "had many calls from the public about the trich outbreaks in finches" and they respond by giving out advice "to concerned members." I'll say it again: it's too late then!

If they are acknowledging that there is currently a heightened problem, I want to know why aren't they taking pre-emptive action and running a campaign to publicise feeder hygiene.

I hope I get a reply from them tomorrow.

Cuckoo-shrike

Monday 4th September 2006, 23:53

Hi Andy, Just seen the thread and read it all and certainly we in Devon have 30-40 Greenfinches plus Chaffinch and Siskin feeding from our many feeders and in the last seven days have found 5 Greenfinch and a Siskin dead (not window casualties) The first two were reported in a neighbour's garden. We have increased our hygiene which is good anyway but we have four close neighbours who also feed and I know they just fill the feeders and it's rare for them to do much else. I will try and speak to them all tomorrow because they certainly would not be reading BF.
So I agree that awareness needs to be raised in the well meaning public at large.
J
Thanks for that J - very useful comments. For me it's further evidence of the current epidemic and a good indication that most people who feed birds don't bother to keep things clean; and thus might help to persuade the RSPB to take some action.

Penny Clarke

Tuesday 5th September 2006, 00:24

THE RSPB SIMPLY NEEDS TO MAKE THE GENERAL PUBLIC AWARE OF EXCELLENT HYGIENE FOR FEEDERS AND PONDS NOW

There are thousands and thousands of people feeding birds, even more than years ago due to increased interest in wildlife, etc etc.

There are PROBABLY THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS that just fill the feeders without cleaning them through sheer ignorance and probably some that, dare I say it, HAVE NEVER cleaned them!! So combined with the increase in birds being fed in gardens in recent years, its hardly suprising there is disease!!!!!

So Yes the RSPB being the largest conservation body that the general public recognise SHOULD RESPOND, by making people aware that birds are dying because of lack of hygiene and that feeders/ponds etc should be cleaned and disinfected regularly and this should be broadcast nationally via TV and newspapers etc!!!!

I will listen to the news tomorrow!!!! :gn:

devon.birder

Tuesday 5th September 2006, 07:48

THE RSPB SIMPLY NEEDS TO MAKE THE GENERAL PUBLIC AWARE OF EXCELLENT HYGIENE FOR FEEDERS AND PONDS NOW

n birds being fed in gardens in recent years, its hardly suprising there is disease!!!!!
So Yes the RSPB being the largest conservation body that the general public recognise SHOULD RESPOND, by making people aware that birds are dying because of lack of hygiene and that feeders/ponds etc should be cleaned and disinfected regularly and this should be broadcast nationally via TV and newspapers etc!!!!

I will listen to the news tomorrow!!!! :gn:

Whilst I disinfect my two bird baths can you tell me how to disinfect my pond without killing everything that is in it?. A steady stream of birds use the pond for drinking and bathing. Roger

Marmot

Tuesday 5th September 2006, 08:57

Whilst I disinfect my two bird baths can you tell me how to disinfect my pond without killing everything that is in it?. A steady stream of birds use the pond for drinking and bathing. Roger
Not sure if one of these might help all from CJ Wildlife site.

http://www.birdfood.co.uk/product_details.php?area_id=2&group_id=13&nav_id=43&prd_id=1065

http://www.birdfood.co.uk/product_details.php?area_id=2&group_id=16&nav_id=45&prd_id=376

http://www.birdfood.co.uk/product_details.php?area_id=2&group_id=16&nav_id=45&prd_id=373

Cuckoo-shrike

Tuesday 5th September 2006, 12:55

The figures incidently are NOT tens of thousands,

I carried out a small survey of my work colleagues this morning. Of 21 people, four have been feeding birds in their gardens recently. One of those four cleans her feeders every time she renews the seed/nuts, one cleans them "occasionally" and the other two haven't cleaned them for "weeks". One of the latter found two dead Greenfinches and a dead Chaffinch in her garden last week but didn't make the connection to feeders.

OK this is a very small sample and is not statistically significant, but it adds to the growing anecdotal evidence that:

(a) very large numbers of birds are dying. I don't know how many gardens there are in the UK but it's in the millions. Do the math, as they say. Steve, what evidence do you have to support your assertion that the figures are "NOT tens of thousands"

(b) very large numbers of people are feeding birds in ignorance of the importance of maintaining good hygiene.

So, I repeat, WHY isn't the RPSB launching an immediate publicity campaign? Birds are dying while they prevaricate.

Jos Stratford

Tuesday 5th September 2006, 13:11

So, I repeat, WHY isn't the RPSB launching an immediate publicity campaign? Birds are dying while they prevaricate.

Getting a bit like the wind farm thread this one.

DavidN

Tuesday 5th September 2006, 19:56

A very real effect of this thread is that we are all annoyed by the childishness of the original poster making a 'I know something you don't know' statement. Just read it again. It wasn't about birds, it was about 'me'. Now a spin-off outcome may be that more people know about the problem, but that could have been achieved without moving me, for one, to drop birdforum just days after he joined.
Of course, the great goal of the original poster seems to be to 'crack the nut' of the RSPB. If they issue a statement even from independent motives, won't we all be harrangued about who made them do it!!
I am seriously annoyed by the way this was addressed. This may be my first post, but at this point I intend it to be the last.

devon.birder

Tuesday 5th September 2006, 20:36

A very real effect of this thread is that we are all annoyed by the childishness of the original poster making a 'I know something you don't know' statement. Just read it again. It wasn't about birds, it was about 'me'. Now a spin-off outcome may be that more people know about the problem, but that could have been achieved without moving me, for one, to drop birdforum just days after he joined.
Of course, the great goal of the original poster seems to be to 'crack the nut' of the RSPB. If they issue a statement even from independent motives, won't we all be harrangued about who made them do it!!
I am seriously annoyed by the way this was addressed. This may be my first post, but at this point I intend it to be the last.

I am sorry to read your comments David. Whilst I do not always see "eye to eye" with Aquila and have in fact clashed with him in the past I believe you are quite wrong to draw the conclusion that you have. I am sure that Aquila only had the best of intentions in bringing this matter to all our attention. Roger

Steve

Tuesday 5th September 2006, 20:42

This may be my first post, but at this point I intend it to be the last
People who announce the fact that this may or not be their last post usually find it is :stuck:

lesf

Tuesday 5th September 2006, 20:45

Grampy Bustard

Tuesday 5th September 2006, 21:19

Boy George

Tuesday 5th September 2006, 21:39

While I do not know if the original poster was scaremongering or just boosting his ego I have no reason to believe this to be so and have no proof that what he was saying was anything but true and to be honest I really don't care, what I do care about is the birds and if anything has come of this post it is to highlight the need for hygene and there will be very few of us who can honestly say we do all there is to do and we can't do anything better, but we can and this includes me who slipped into the routine of cleaning only once a fortnight through apathy so I thank the original poster for the wake up call even though my wife thinks I'm crazy putting 15 feeders in the pot washing machine

"Here, here" and thanks to Aquila for the original post bringing this to our attention. I appreciate you may have difficulties with your source but what's important is that people are made aware - which you have done but you just can't help some people - I note the vitriol aimed at you for no good reason.

A VERY LARGE PENNY dropped when I read Aquila's post as to why I have been finding dead and dying Greenfinches and a House Sparrow in my garden. (About 4 or 5 in the past fortnight.) Stupidly, I put it down to window strikes even though the birds were not always that near the house/garden shed.

I'm going to follow the good advice given in the thread and clean immediately and thoroughly, something I'm sure like many others I have not paid sufficient attention to in the past.

Adrian

scampo

Tuesday 5th September 2006, 21:57

Mickymouse

Tuesday 5th September 2006, 22:46

Mary Evelyn

Tuesday 5th September 2006, 22:55

A very real effect of this thread is that we are all annoyed by the childishness of the original poster making a 'I know something you don't know' statement. Just read it again. It wasn't about birds, it was about 'me'. Now a spin-off outcome may be that more people know about the problem, but that could have been achieved without moving me, for one, to drop birdforum just days after he joined.
Of course, the great goal of the original poster seems to be to 'crack the nut' of the RSPB. If they issue a statement even from independent motives, won't we all be harrangued about who made them do it!!
I am seriously annoyed by the way this was addressed. This may be my first post, but at this point I intend it to be the last.

I am afraid then David, it will be your loss.

SiG

Tuesday 5th September 2006, 23:03

A very real effect of this thread is that we are all annoyed by the childishness of the original poster making a 'I know something you don't know' statement. Just read it again. It wasn't about birds, it was about 'me'. <snip> I am seriously annoyed by the way this was addressed. This may be my first post, but at this point I intend it to be the last.

And in so saying, doesn't that make you guilty of precisely that which you accuse? Ho hum.

While I do not know if the original poster was scaremongering or just boosting his ego I have no reason to believe this to be so and have no proof that what he was saying was anything but true and to be honest I really don't care, what I do care about is the birds and if anything has come of this post it is to highlight the need for hygene and there will be very few of us who can honestly say we do all there is to do and we can't do anything better, but we can and this includes me who slipped into the routine of cleaning only once a fortnight through apathy so I thank the original poster for the wake up call even though my wife thinks I'm crazy putting 15 feeders in the pot washing machine

and ... breathe out! Phew!

Now then, there's some odd writing styles on any forum, not least of which is mine. And let's face it, we're all a bunch of freaks, aren't we? (Or is that really just me?) Weird intents, politics, and reactions too, no doubt. But there's clearly something to be gleaned from the text of this thread that's worth the effort of distilling down from the usual messaqge-board mash.

morning light

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 02:00

Having looked over this thread I think most everybody here needs to take a chill pill.

Basically, the "stop feeding" flag was unwarranted. All you gotta do is wash your feeders and encourage and educate others to do so. Won't it feel good to protect the birds from any health problem, be it trich, Bird flu, or whatever? Any other discussion about this has turned out to be fluff and hot air, in my honest opinion.

Andrew Rowlands

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 02:11

Basically, the "stop feeding" flag was unwarranted. All you gotta do is wash your feeders and encourage and educate others to do so.
Except when you already have unprecedented numbers of dead and dying birds in your garden - which is just what some BF members have already stated in this thread.

In their cases, - ie., "Where large numbers of birds are sick or dying", "Stop feeding now" is surely the best advice on the matter?

morning light

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 02:17

Andrew Rowlands

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 02:34

If they just stop feeding and then later on when there are no birds put out dirty feeders? How is that supposed to help?

It is not necessary to stop feeding birds, just to be vigilant about hygiene is enough.Neat edit :t:

Read what the experts have said - http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=674510&postcount=47 "Where large numbers of birds are sick or dying, consider significantly reducing or stopping feeding for a short period (around 2 weeks). The reason for this is to encourage birds to disperse, thereby minimising the chances of new birds becoming affected at the feeding station. Gradually reintroduce feeding, monitoring for further signs of ill health." from http://www.ufaw.org.uk/documents/Trichomonasadvicesheet_Aug06.pdf I believe and the page that was created or modified on Monday - http://www.bto.org/gbw/NEWS/disease_outbreak.htm

I made my first comment along these lines as a reply to Mary in http://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=673719&postcount=32 well before I knew what the disease actually was - I thought it was just a commonsense reply at the time. Maybe I'm wrong ... but I have actually read and tried to make some sense of the whole issue.

DavidN

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 07:45

I am afraid then David, it will be your loss.
Indeed. There are a lot of people here much more experienced than I.

[QUOTE=SiG]And in so saying, doesn't that make you guilty of precisely that which you accuse? Ho hum.QUOTE]

Hmm. Perhaps I did get close to 'throwing my rattle out of the pram'. Cooler morning light brings a fresher outlook. Perhaps I need to lurk a bit longer and learn who to keep clear of and who to pay attention to.

morning light

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 10:08

Well, it certainly doesn't make sense to me. While I understand that dispersing sick birds will keep them out of one person's yard and certainly doesn't hurt, I don't see how it would help. Wouldn't it just move the problem? Or would the sick birds disperse and just die looking for more food before other birds would be infected?

Let me know how it goes?

scampo

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 11:25

I would have thought a dish washer was a good idea, wish I had one, the rinse temperature is usually so hot it near sterilises the utensils, I wouldn't mix the loads and I would put it through an empty cycle before I used it again, just to be on the safe side.

Mick
Well - I doubt the dishwasher is designed to deal with more than gravy stains and so forth, myself, Mick. I take your point about the temperature, but there are many nooks and crannies in a dishwasher to harbour bits and pieces from whatever is put inside.

Andrew Rowlands

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 16:08

As Andy Rowland notes, the information is taken from the information sheet that we have put together on Trichomoniasis as part of the Garden Bird Health initiative, with which I (as the BTO's GBW Organiser) am heavily involved.
Hi Mike, I've just been looking at the BTO/GBW site and the article created or updated on Monday, http://www.bto.org/gbw/NEWS/disease_outbreak.htm, does not seem to be accessible via the menu system. The Trichomoniasis article that can be found is a rather brief one dated a year ago, http://www.bto.org/gbw/hygiene/diseases/Trichomoniasis.htm

Do you think it would be possible to include it in the menu somewhere to make it more easily accessible?

Cheers,

Andy.

MPTOMS

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 16:40

Andrew Rowlands

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 16:59

The article can be reached from the BTO/CJ Garden BirdWatch HomePage www.bto.org/gbw where it is flagged up as a news item (right hand column). We do not normally feature individual news items as a link within the menu system. This particular page will be better linked once we restructure the GBW section of the BTO website. This is likely to happen this winter.
But for someone looking for info on this from the main BTO site http://www.bto.org/, they are likely to use the "Information on birds and gardens" or "Latest news" links and expect to find it from there?

alcedo.atthis

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 17:51

"A VERY LARGE PENNY dropped when I read Aquila's post as to why I have been finding dead and dying Greenfinches and a House Sparrow in my garden. (About 4 or 5 in the past fortnight.) Stupidly, I put it down to window strikes even though the birds were not always that near the house/garden shed."

Adrian, having read the above, just curious. Have you put any of the carcasses for analysis? Far more garden birds die from subs of Salmonella and E-Coli than from Trichomonas gallinae at this time.

Regards

Malky

alcedo.atthis

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 17:57

"It's from a BF member who's profile states "Am now working for RSPB on bird flu"."

So where's the politically sensivity in that. The information about Trichomonas gallinae has been in the public domain for over a year.

It seems it's not just a couple of 'scaremongers' here that think this disease is increasing; hopefully these calls were just due to the hot, dry weather that this infection is said to thrive in - as the weather get's cooler and wetter, the levels of infection should reduce.

The 2005 figures show, that the timescale for incidences go through to, and include December.

Regards

Malky

Cuckoo-shrike

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 18:01

I've just checked back into this thread after 24 hours. I don't think I need to comment on DavidN's astonishing personal attack on me, except to say that I don't think I've ever read on this forum so many inaccurate statements in so few words and that with his "cooler morning light" and "fresher outlook", perhaps an apology wouldn't go amiss. Thanks to those of you who put him straight.

I'm actually more upset by the fact that I've not seen any response from the RSPB (of which, for the record, I've been a member for donkey's years, I do voluntary work for them and I think they're fantastic - until now, that is.)

It's also disappointing that Steve hasn't come back with any back-up for his assertion that the numbers of fatalities are "NOT tens of thousands". Where are you Steve?

Steve

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 18:17

I made several phone calls last monday to individuals and organisations who are at the front end of researching this disease, but I will wait (as we are all waiting) for you to qualify your opening statement, Once you have told me exactly who your Authority is I will of course tell you where I got my information from .

I have it on good authority that an epidemic is spreading rapidly through finches in the UK, resulting in tens of thousands of deaths. Garden feeding stations are heavily implicated in the transmission of the disease and people should stop feeding immediately and thoroughly disinfect or remove all feeders, drinking and bathing bowls.

Sadly, politics prevent me naming the source of this information.

I have nothing to hide I am an administrator of birdforum and used this title in my quest to find some facts.

Over to you ?

martinf

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 18:39

I will wait (as we are all waiting) for you to qualify your opening statement, Once you have told me exactly who your Authority is I will of course tell you where I got my information from .

Over to you ?

I'd also like to find out who your authority is

deborah4

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 19:04

My original quote from post 93

1. There was no 'info' contained in the original post that was adequate to assume the advice that was given alongside it.....

2. On the contrary, it does matter!

Turned into this below by you in post 95!

1. There was no 'info' contained in the original post that was adequate to assume the advice that was given alongside it.....

2. On the contrary, it does matter! (If a few informed people don't feed their birds)

ZANZIBAR - I take serious umbrage at you DOCTORING my posts and then presenting them in my quote name as imputing the words to me as originally said. I did NOT say the words highlighted in BOLD... The first is my original and the second doctored by you for your own purposes. The net result, is that it completely subverts my position - which remains only stop feeding if you have dying or ill birds around your feeder, or continue feeding and maintain/improve feeder hygiene.

DON'T do it again please.
:C

Cuckoo-shrike

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 19:09

For the nth time I am unable to do that.

I have pointed out though that there is clearly enough anecdotal evidence to suggest a very large figure, in the order of tens of thousands or maybe more. There's no point in getting into a game of ping-pong with you guys, but Steve's apparently confident assertion that it's "NOT" that many seems very odd.

Steve

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 19:24

alcedo.atthis

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 19:45

"For the ninth time I am unable to do that."

Why??

"I have pointed out though that there is clearly enough anecdotal evidence to suggest a very large figure, in the order of tens of thousands or maybe more."

Poppy-cock. No such evidence exists. Try contacting the relevand bodies for figures pertaining to deaths from/by Trichomonas gallinae in garden birds since 2004. Then do some comparisons with other diseases/problems

Your original header, was self centered, one-upmanship, (or a feeble attempt do do so) missleading, (some in the forum are "IN" the know) and scaremongering. (for the "newbies)
A little pathetic in other words.
No wonder the society does not respond.
Try a more serious approach, with relaible information, (do some research) not some rumour heard in the pub on a Friday night in future. We may then take in what you post!!

Regards

Malky

Cuckoo-shrike

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 19:55

Aquila, I could argue that your unqualified statement saying and I quote "an epidemic is spreading rapidly through finches in the UK, resulting in tens of thousands of deaths END Quote" is also very odd, the difference is, is that I am prepared to name my scources, where as you only have as you say "anecdotal evidence" which is of course is heresay?

I also have better things to do than play ping pong, however I think you should qualify your posts as I am prepared to do , rather than making sweeping statements which quite frankly SHOULD be substantiated,so other members know where they stand on any of your future past or present posts?
How can you have a reliable source for your statement? How can anyone be so sure that the figures are not that high?

Your suggestion about other posts of mine is pretty scurrilous, in fact it's quite offensive, especially coming from a BirdForum administrator. I would have thought tact would be one of the qualities they look for.

Cuckoo-shrike

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 20:02

"For the ninth time I am unable to do that."

Why??

"I have pointed out though that there is clearly enough anecdotal evidence to suggest a very large figure, in the order of tens of thousands or maybe more."

Poppy-cock. No such evidence exists. Try contacting the relevand bodies for figures pertaining to deaths from/by Trichomonas gallinae in garden birds since 2004. Then do some comparisons with other diseases/problems

Your original header, was self centered, one-upmanship, (or a feeble attempt do do so) missleading, (some in the forum are "IN" the know) and scaremongering. (for the "newbies)
A little pathetic in other words.
No wonder the society does not respond.
Try a more serious approach, with relaible information, (do some research) not some rumour in heard in the pub on a Friday night in future. We may then take in what you post!!

Regards

Malky

Ah, the knives are out now! Steve's attack has clearly given you confidence. Using psychology there too Malky (the comment about some in the Forum being "IN" the know) - clever....

I did some of my own research and reported the admittedly limited but quite telling results here. When you say "We may then take in what you post!!", who exactly are you speaking for?

DavidN

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 20:04

...I don't think I need to comment on DavidN's astonishing personal attack on me, except to say that I don't think I've ever read on this forum so many inaccurate statements in so few words and that with his "cooler morning light" and "fresher outlook", perhaps an apology wouldn't go amiss. Thanks to those of you who put him straight.

Perhaps my second post wasn't clear. I have NOT changed my stance. What I am learning, though, is which posters to pay attention to and which to steer clear of in the future.

I don't feel as though I've been 'put straight', but I still await some sound basis for me to "Stop feeding now!!"

Cuckoo-shrike

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 20:07

[QUOTE=DavidN]What I am learning, though, is which posters to pay attention to and which to steer clear of in the future.
QUOTE]
Do us both a favour and put me on your "ignore" list.

martinf

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 20:10

Before everyone gets there hand bags out can we all remember the point of this thread and Birdforum. Let's just reiterate that one should observe good hygiene rules at bird feeders and leave the other guff outside

alcedo.atthis

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 20:31

"Ah, the knives are out now! Steve's attack has clearly given you confidence."

Sorry, but Steve does not have to give me confidence. You do through the way you have responded to every question you have been asked.

"I did some of my own research and reported the admittedly limited but quite telling results here. When you say "We may then take in what you post!!", who exactly are you speaking for?"

Probably the intelligent ones who actually weigh up any/the information/statement(s) given, research the said information, then react in a way which is pertinent to the facts, not to posted supposition.

Ps, what research did you actually do??
The information on Trichomonas gallinae doing a species jump has been in public forum since 2004.
That is well over a year to do "my own research and reported the admittedly limited but quite telling results here". If I burst out laughing at this point, please do not be surprised.

"limited but quite telling results", do please elaborate. Educate me!!

Regards

Malky

lesf

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 20:50

I am relatively new to this forum and I am astonished at the personal attacks on the original poster so what if he may have exaggerated a little, so what if the facts maybe a little off the mark, what is true that there is a problem in the wild finch population which may or may not spread far and wide, does it matter what he has said? he has given us all a kick up the backside that we all needed and what is the worst that could stem from this thread? A possible epidemic averted, better hygiene and better welfare for the birds a fair price to pay would you not agree. He like all of us love birds they provide us all with hours of enjoyment and they deserve our attention and help. So please do not make personal attacks on people who have the birds welfare at heart, this forum is not the place to attack peoples integrity

Andrew Rowlands

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 21:03

"It's from a BF member who's profile states "Am now working for RSPB on bird flu"."

So where's the politically sensivity in that. The information about Trichomonas gallinae has been in the public domain for over a year. Malky,
I was highlighting "Over he past few weeks the RSPB has received many calls regarding the trich outbreaks in finches", from the member in point, I wasn't trying to highlight anything politically sensitive (is there something I missed?), just pointing out that it looks like the RSPB have been receiving an increasing number of calls about this disease.

deborah4

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 21:05

I accept that it may have been irresponsible of me to couch the thread title in such dramatic terms ....

From my subsequent posts however, I think I have made it clear that I am asking for a publicity campaign on hygiene, which will at least be an improvement on the lack of any initiative from the RSPB.

Just to remind those of you attacking Acquila, he's already accepted his first post was 'dramatic' and 'may have been irresponsible' - is it really necessary to labour the point?

(sorry Acquila for speaking 'in your absence'!) However, it seems to me, from subsequent posts, all that was asked and is now being asked by the original poster, is for awareness to be raised with regard to hygiene!

Jos Stratford

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 21:09

so what if he may have exaggerated a little, so what if the facts maybe a little off the mark, .... does it matter what he has said?

It matters because a wisely written thread, highlighting a possible thread to feeding birds, along with a reminder on hygiene issues, does not need unsubstantiated claims and sensationalist headlines (nor attacks on the RSPB). The effect on this style of reporting essentially does for me, and I suppose several others, the same as some wild headline in the 'News of the World', i.e. not much at all. Moreover, I think I alluded to this earlier, it just reminds us of the the previous health hypes over the past few years, remember the ones, that millions of us would be dead by some mutated Bird Flu or, earlier, SARS. Na, if there is real data out there, it needs to be presented ...just talking of sources that can't be named doesn't cut it.

However, the big hoo ha that has developed from this thread has probably served a positive benefit - I guess a few of us have cleaned their feeders for the first time for yonks this week :)

Cuckoo-shrike

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 21:26

(sorry Acquila for speaking 'in your absence'!)
Not at all Deborah - thanks.

The message has been put across and now that some members have stooped to such depths to make personal attacks on my character, integrity, and even my intelligence, in my opinion it's time that the thread was closed.

lesf

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 21:35

Not at all Deborah - thanks.

The message has been put across and now that some members have stooped to such depths to make personal attacks on my character, integrity, and even my intelligence, in my opinion it's time that the thread was closed.
Well I for one thank you for highlighting the possible threat to our birds and reading some of the posts in this forum there is a good many there are many people who are self righteous snobs who talk down to other people and who seem to derive pleasure from demeaning others. lets get this thread closed now and get back to normality and return the forum to what it is meant to be about which is the birds and lets stop with the attacks on other bird lovers

Cuckoo-shrike

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 22:19

The message has been put across
...just to finally add that, of course, the message re. cleaning and disinfecting feeders during the current outbreak of disease has only been reinforced for the very limited number of people who have been reading this thread. It's probably saved a few birds' lives though (and I'm quite proud about that, Malky!).

I remain p*ssed off that heaven knows how many people out there are blissfully unaware that they are killing the birds they're attracting into their gardens and nowhere near enough is being done about it.

For my part I've put a link to the BTO's webpage on the birding website I run and I've contacted the Western Morning News to see if they will run a story on it (thanks J).

Mabel

Wednesday 6th September 2006, 23:00

Well I had absolutely no idea of this disease at all! I assume this advice applies to Ireland as well, if it wasnt for BF, I wouldnt have known about it at all!

saddler

Thursday 7th September 2006, 00:02

Just out of curiosity what percentage of finches in the UK actually visit bird feeders? Im just wondering how significant a role bird feeders play in spreading diseases. Finches are sociable creatures so will the diseases not spread among the population anyway?

I think some idea of the scale of any problem might help as well, for example can anyone answer the following:
1) how many finches are at risk?
2) how many normally die each year from disease
3) how much worse is it this year
4) what could be the long-term impact on finch polutations if the disease contines to spread

After all even tens of thousands is statistically low in populations numbering in the millions.........

morning light

Thursday 7th September 2006, 02:11

I'm really p*ssed off that heaven knows how many people out there are blissfully killing the birds they're attracting into their gardens and nowhere near enough is being done about it.

No one is "blissfully" killing birds. Don't whine about people disagreeing with you and then post garbage. You are now on my poopy list. You didn't even answer my honest questions.

Cuckoo-shrike

Thursday 7th September 2006, 06:44

No one is "blissfully" killing birds. Don't whine about people disagreeing with you and then post garbage. You are now on my poopy list. You didn't even answer my honest questions.
So sorry - I missed a few words out. Post now edited.
I have a hunch I may be in good company on your "poopy list".

Grampy Bustard

Thursday 7th September 2006, 07:09

Aquila
Ignore the morons, you have done your best to raise an important issue, protecting a sensitive but knowledgable source who knows the facts, and have been attacked by those unable to see further than the end of their nose.
I would just let them get on with it, you have done your bit by raising awareness among a few more people.
Stick to moths chap, far less hassle.

Boy George

Thursday 7th September 2006, 11:55

Aquila,

I'm with you all the way - I was "blissfully killing birds" until I read your lead posting and have had an accelerating incidence of dead and dying birds this week. Not great numbers (7 or 8 in total) but clearly significant.
I've offered the body of today's casualty, a Chaffinch, to the RSPB (I live near Sandy) but they have declined and asked me only to report any species other than Chaffinches/Greenfinches/HouseSparrows to a vetinary laboratory. They asked a number of questions about my experiences and like others posting here, encouraged a cessation in feeding for a couple of weeks to allow for the dispersal/the demise of those already infected. They are sending me some literature in tonight's post.

For the record, I have removed and disinfected all my feeders, safely disposed of the contents and will start again in a few weeks if my little feathered friends have forgiven me for deserting them and are still in the neighbourhood!

Best wishes

Adrian

deborah4

Thursday 7th September 2006, 18:04

...just to finally add that, of course, the message re. cleaning and disinfecting feeders during the current outbreak of disease has only been reinforced for the very limited number of people who have been reading this thread.

Hi Aquila

Have spoken to my local pet store Manager today - they are part of a national chain and incidently just launching new feeders. The Manager was very pleased for info re: Trich disease and need for extra hygiene. I have advised her to contact RSPB for advice re: the wording of a nationwide Pet Store 'campaign' and Manager says she will inform all the Pet Stores in the chain to advise customers of the necessity of very strict hygiene with feeders and of need to stop feeding if customers see ill or dead birds around their feeders.

Hope that helps and doesn't set a cat among the pigeons along with everything else!

alcedo.atthis

Thursday 7th September 2006, 19:11

It's probably saved a few birds' lives though (and I'm quite proud about that, Malky!).

Been there, done that. You are only following what has been said and posted in the past.

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=43163
Friday 7th October 2005, 19:30
Feeder site hygiene and disease.

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=14406 (http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=14406)
Monday 16th August 2004, 13:54
Sick Greenfinches Again - advice please

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=13953 (http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=13953)
Tuesday 16th March 2004, 18:20
Sick chaffinch?

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=13306 (http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=13306)
Saturday 28th February 2004, 20:49
Deaths in Finches and Sparrows 5 (Jan 2004)

to mention a few, and not an over-reaction in any.
I could go back further (years), but that would be pointless.

Question:- when you realised "it may have been irresponsible of me to couch the thread title in such dramatic terms" why then, as originator of said thread, did you not change the thread title to a slightly lesser degree of sensationalism?
Just curious.

Regards

Malky

Mary Evelyn

Thursday 7th September 2006, 19:16

June Atkinson

Thursday 7th September 2006, 19:28

Hi Andy,

I believe some good has come out of this thread and that although not everyone has posted,i am sure that many people have questioned their feeding stations and that counts for a lot.

I too, have been speaking to my customers since this thread began and although no-one has witnessed poorly birds,they are garden bird lovers and are now on the look out.I have also put a poster up reminding people of the importance of Hygiene,not a lot, but hopefully a help.

We all have the birds interests at heart and that at the end of the day is what matters :flowers:

I'm going to take a copy of the UFAW advice to our local Garden Centre, where there is a section on Bird foods and Feeders.

Could Birdforum create a poster for members to download and take to outlets; it would be a positive step, and if it were permitted, could also introduce Birdforum to people who have never known of it. :t:

deborah4

Thursday 7th September 2006, 20:11

Been there, done that. You are only following what has been said and posted in the past.

So keep on doing it and for those that don't, start! (btw: only admin can change thread titles as far as I know) - Time to let it go alcedo.

Well done Mary & June - hopefully more will follow suit and we will have done our bit on BF!

Grampy Bustard

Thursday 7th September 2006, 20:53

Leave it be Malky, suggest energy better directed elsewhere.....

Penny Clarke

Thursday 7th September 2006, 21:07

I work for a a weekly newspaper and they will be highlighting the need to keep feeders/baths scrupulously clean on a regular basis in next weeks paper :t:

I have also sent an email to the RSPB which I am waiting a response from - will let you know if I hear anything :t:

Cuckoo-shrike

Friday 8th September 2006, 08:23

Your original header, was self centered, one-upmanship, (or a feeble attempt do do so) missleading, (some in the forum are "IN" the know) and scaremongering. (for the "newbies)
A little pathetic in other words.
No wonder the society does not respond.
Try a more serious approach, with relaible information, (do some research) not some rumour heard in the pub on a Friday night in future. We may then take in what you post!!
Malky
Such vitriol Malky. It's pouring out of you! It's clearly making you feel SO good! Or is it that you have shares in a bird-seed company?

Either way, you can save your scorn for some other innocent victim because you have achieved the rare distinction of making it on to my ignore list. :eek!:

Cuckoo-shrike

Friday 8th September 2006, 08:26

It's probably saved a few birds' lives though (and I'm quite proud about that, Malky!).

Been there, done that. You are only following what has been said and posted in the past.

Malky

And you point is, other than your need to put me in my place?
Goodbye Malky. :t:

Pam_m

Friday 8th September 2006, 08:30

Time to let it go alcedo.

Well done Mary & June - hopefully more will follow suit and we will have done our bit on BF!

Yes, Well done Mary & June :clap: :clap: A positive step that we all need to take, even if it is just to tell our families, friends and neighbours to make hygiene a priority!

PS Good luck Penny :t:

Cuckoo-shrike

Friday 8th September 2006, 08:39

The RSPB has advised me that a press statement is planned by a GBHi (Garden Bird Health initiative) partner at some point, but I'm not raising my hopes because they say that the vast majority of releases never see the light of day.

Cuckoo-shrike

Friday 8th September 2006, 09:41

Yes, Well done Mary & June :clap: :clap: A positive step that we all need to take, even if it is just to tell our families, friends and neighbours to make hygiene a priority!

PS Good luck Penny :t:

Hear hear and well done too RSPB and the GBHi:

http://www.cumberland-news.co.uk/news/viewarticle.aspx?id=409730

ChrisMc

Friday 8th September 2006, 10:25

Very concerned at this news, I have not seen any finches in the last fortnight, I was regularly visited by Greenfinches, Chaffinches, Goldfinches and a pair of Bullfinches.
I have not seen any dead or ill birds, they just seem to have disappeared. I have a family of over 30 sparrows every day in the garden devouring the seed in the feeders.
I was going to start a thread regarding a new feeder I have introduced, (which is how I came upon this thread) although I have 3 feeders and a table, the sparrows have took a preference to 1 in particular which only had 2 posts which resulted in a lot of squabling, the new feeder has 4 bigger posts, sparrows have been curious but after 3 days have still not took to it.
I am very aware of keeping the feeders clean, I wash with liquid, wipe thouroughly with anti-bacterial wipes then rinse on every refill.
My problem was should I leave it a bit longer or go back to the old one. Now my problem is should I be feeding them at all?.

BIG DECISION!

Hope someone enlightens us all soon.

Chrissy